Ghostly Woes

[NeoSeraphi]

After a long year hiatus, I have finally decided to try and DM a game again. I did some thinking and decided to run a game where my players are all dead and get to play ghosts, because why not? Seems like a cool chance to play a fun, usually intolerable-because-of-its-LA template.

My problem is, I have no idea how the incorporeal subtype is supposed to interact with the ghost template, and the Monster Manual example does nothing to help.

So when a ghost manifests, he becomes incorporeal, but is no longer ethereal. And the incorporeal subtype states the creature no longer has a Strength score. So the ghost can't add his Strength to damage, right? And the Damage section of the ghost's template says it can't normally damage nonethereal creatures.

But then its AC is 12, or 21, and the 21 counts its full plate and shield. And then its attack is either a touch, or a bastard sword/shortbow, and the bastard sword gets its Strength to damage.

Are these spots where the creature gets to use its Strength and equipment only available while the ghost is ethereal (and thus completely unable to affect the Material Plane?) or...what the heck is this mess?

[NotScaryBats]

To answer a question that you didn't even ask, Ghostwalk is a 3.0 book all about playing ghosts that has, like, completely alternate rules for ghosts as well as a setting and is everything you'd want for a campaign where every PC is a ghost.

[NeoSeraphi]

To answer a question that you didn't even ask, Ghostwalk is a 3.0 book all about playing ghosts that has, like, completely alternate rules for ghosts as well as a setting and is everything you'd want for a campaign where every PC is a ghost.

I don't have that book though. But thanks for the information.

[Jasdoif]

So when a ghost manifests, he becomes incorporeal, but is no longer ethereal.Not quite. Here's where the mess comes from:
A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

Even while it's manifesting on the Material Plane, the ghost is still on the Ethereal Plane. And because it's not incorporeal on the Ethereal Plane, its Strength score and equipment function normally there. (Think of it this way: the ghost isn't transporting itself to the Material Plane when it manifests; it's extending itself partly into the Material Plane)

[NeoSeraphi]

Even while it's manifesting on the Material Plane, the ghost is still on the Ethereal Plane. And because it's not incorporeal on the Ethereal Plane, its Strength score and equipment function normally there. (Think of it this way: the ghost isn't transporting itself to the Material Plane when it manifests; it's extending itself partly into the Material Plane)

Okay. So the ghost only gets its stuff against ethereal creatures. But what about that whole +1 weapon and having 50% miss chance against nonethereals and stuff?

[Gavinfoxx]

I haven't 100% read all the OP... but have you read this?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1118

It might answer questions you had, and give you ideas to solve this problem...

Ghosts have LOTS of ways of getting gear that will function against people...

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, can anyone tell me the prerequisites for the Ghostly Grasp feat?

[Gavinfoxx]

Cha 15, Incorporeal Subtype.

[NeoSeraphi]

Cha 15, Incorporeal Subtype.

Great. So with this feat, my players have no miss chance against corporeal foes...as long as they're manifested? But while they're not manifested, they're completely ethereal and cannot attack or cast spells against anything on the Material Plane. Is that how it works?

[Jasdoif]

Okay. So the ghost only gets its stuff against ethereal creatures. But what about that whole +1 weapon and having 50% miss chance against nonethereals and stuff?Those are properties of an incorporeal creature; as such, they only applies to attacks directed at it on the Material Plane (ie attacks originating on the Material Plane). Attacks from the Ethereal Plane resolve normally, because the ghost isn't incorporeal there.

And to ward off potential confusion (since ethereal and incorporeal are easy to mix up), here's the section on incorporeal creatures I believe you're describing:
Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

[NeoSeraphi]

Those are properties of an incorporeal creature; as such, they only applies to attacks directed at it on the Material Plane (ie attacks originating on the Material Plane). Attacks from the Ethereal Plane resolve normally, because the ghost isn't incorporeal there.

And to ward off potential confusion (since ethereal and incorporeal are easy to mix up), here's the section on incorporeal creatures I believe you're describing:

No, no, I'm talking about the ghost's attacks against other creatures, referenced in the Ghost Equipment part of the Ghost template.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are lots of things Ghosts can do... they could wield Serrenwood Clubs, ie, completely mundane blocks of wood that they can grasp (ie, so you don't need to get them +1 ghost touch gear for them to influence the world). They could also take the Skilled Telekinetic feat and have finer control of their telekinesis.

And besides that, here is an interesting trick that ANY ghost can do...

A ghost has TK at caster level 12, at will, every 1d4 rounds.

A Violent Thrust from a ghost can move 300 pounds of items -- but they can only hurl up to 12 items! The to hit is your base attack bonus plus intelligence modifier or charisma modifier -- so a ghost with int based or cha based classes with full BAB are great at this (hexblade?).

(Remember you might have had aging penalties/bonuses before you died, or be an intelligence or charisma focused class, or have 'bought' bad constitution from your point buy, cause it is negated when you become undead. There are also ways to get Charisma to your hit points, but we won't talk about those here.)

Per Telekenesis, the Ghost uses the base damage of weapons without a strength modifier. Thus, the ghost should get the most base damage per weight of the weapon. The ghost does not take any penalty from non proficiency or size categories of the weapon, since it isnt actually wielding the weapon in question.

Per Savage Species, there are damage modifiers beyond 'colossal', such as colossal+, colossal++ and so on.

The best weapon to use would be one that can be 100% made out of Mithral (so you can make them lighter for the same amount of damage, and you can -- for example -- use the mithral full plate and mithral breastplate armor in the armory for material to make them), and be of a simple shape to make, and (ideally), is VERY light for the D6's of damage, made to be thrown, and not count as ammunition (so it is not destroyed when it is used). Alternately, other mithral-like materials that can be used, such as Duskwood (which specifically can be made into weapons that require iron) from the book Magic of Faerun. This is good, because trees are massive, even if the wood itself is light, and produce lots of material to make stuff out of!

Look at the Annulat from Planar Handbook. It is basically a throwing chakram, and is 1d6 for the Medium version... which weighs 1/2 lb for an iron one. I think you can see where this is going...

A Colossal++ Mithral version would be 8d6 damage for 16 pounds, and a Colossal+++ Mithral version would be 12d6 damage for 32 pounds. These are the sort of thing you throw while in a big room, or outdoors -- these items might be too big for rooms or hallways, for example.

The best formula, to stay under 300 pounds of weapons and 12 items or under, is to get 6 colossal+++ and 6 colossal++ annulats. For a Ghost, that gets them 120d6 damage if all of them hit on a single Violent Thrust. These also would likely qualify as siege weapons, due to their size, and Wind Wall would not stop them...

The amount of damage is like this:

6 colossal+++ 72d6
6 colossal++ 48d6
12 items
120d6 damage if all hit, which is an average 420 points of slashing damage if all hit... Every 1d4 rounds. Per Ghost. And there are ways to IMPROVE your base TK damage, like Knowledge Devotion!

Of course, if the items aren't enchanted, you can't affect some creatures. There are things in D&D that don't care how many D6 of damage you sling with a nonmagical weapon, since you can't affect them at all...

P.S. This basic concept (throwing big weapons) can *easily* be downgraded to less optimal options for lower power level games... I just did this to show how hardcore the Ghost's TK *can* get, with the 'gloves off', as it were.

[Jasdoif]

No, no, I'm talking about the ghost's attacks against other creatures, referenced in the Ghost Equipment part of the Ghost template.Ah. Well, it seems to work the same basic way: the ghost's equipment is on the Ethereal Plane, and becomes partly present on the Material Plane when the ghost manifests, just like the ghost does. And...I guess it's supposed to work out the same as a corporeal creature attacking an incorporeal one, with the 50% stuff from magic that isn't force and stuff.

Oh, I think I see where you were going....Ghostly Grasp would allow your ghosts to wield items on the Material Plane normally. Strictly speaking, I don't think it apply to their own Ethereal-Plane-based ghostly equipment...although personally I don't see anything wrong with letting it work anyway, if they're spending a feat on it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah. Well, it seems to work the same basic way: the ghost's equipment is on the Ethereal Plane, and becomes partly present on the Material Plane when the ghost manifests, just like the ghost does. And...I guess it's supposed to work out the same as a corporeal creature attacking an incorporeal one, with the 50% stuff from magic that isn't force and stuff.

Oh, I think I see where you were going....Ghostly Grasp would allow your ghosts to wield items on the Material Plane normally. Strictly speaking, I don't think it apply to their own Ethereal-Plane-based ghostly equipment...although personally I don't see anything wrong with letting it work anyway, if they're spending a feat on it.

Okay, thanks. :smallsmile: