Equipment to stop being flat footed.

[zoobob9]

In an upcoming battle, I've been informed that the build I have won't work if I am flat footed. I can't change the feats or cast any buffing spells before the fight starts (level 20 necromancy specialist wizard), and I have 75k worth of equipment to use. Is there any specific equipment that I can use so that I'm not flat footed at the beginning of the battle?

For those who want the Why:
[SPOILER]The fight is me vs 5 fighters. My build uses an immediate action to cast a huge spell combo, and I get to cause a ton of dexterity damage on each of his fighters. But I've been told that even if its an immediate action, I can't take it if I'm flat footed./SPOILER]

[Curmudgeon]

You're always flat-footed until you've acted in battle, except for a very few special cases. (Scout Uncanny Dodge is one example.) A Robe of Eyes (120,000 gp, so it's more than your budget) will let you retain your DEX bonus to AC when you're flat-footed, but it doesn't keep you from being flat-footed.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Paradoxically, you could use an immediate action just before the initiative roll to cast Nerveskitter, which gives you a +5 to initiative, helping you to ensure that you win initiative (or come close), and reduce the risk that you will be flat-footed in the first place.

Of course, that becomes your immediate action (so you wouldn't get an immediate action before your turn anyway), but immediately after your turn ended, you could take an immediate action to begin your action chain.

[The Dark Fiddler]

My friend, when DMing, once gave an opponent high-heeled shoes to prevent being flat-footed. I don't suggest doing this, or asking to do this.

Anyway, invest in trying to get a high initiative check. I think the only real way to buy one would be a weapon with the warning (?) property.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The Belt of Battle (also in MiC) gives a +2 untyped bonus to initiative checks.

[zoobob9]

You're always flat-footed until you've acted in battle, except for a very few special cases. (Scout Uncanny Dodge is one example.) A Robe of Eyes (120,000 gp, so it's more than your budget) will let you retain your DEX bonus to AC when you're flat-footed, but it doesn't keep you from being flat-footed.

I'm guessing there is no way to duplicate the uncanny dodge ability using items.

[Hiro Protagonest]

My friend, when DMing, once gave an opponent high-heeled shoes to prevent being flat-footed. I don't suggest doing this, or asking to do this.

...Is your friend Curmudgeon? Why the hell did they think that would prevent them from being flat-footed? Except in the most literal definition of the phrase, which has nothing to do with combat.

[Lateral]

...Is your friend Curmudgeon? Why the hell did they think that would prevent them from being flat-footed? Except in the most literal definition of the phrase, which has nothing to do with combat.

It was a joke. It was a joke about exactly what you said.

[Chess435]

I believe that an item property in Weapons of Legacy will do that. Menu D or E, IIRC.

[Darrin]

Paradoxically, you could use an immediate action just before the initiative roll to cast Nerveskitter, which gives you a +5 to initiative, helping you to ensure that you win initiative (or come close), and reduce the risk that you will be flat-footed in the first place.

Isn't that somewhat moot, since casting nerveskitter is an action? Wouldn't activating any immediate-action magic item (there are several cheap ones in the MIC) remove the flat-footed condition?


I'm guessing there is no way to duplicate the uncanny dodge ability using items.

Roaring Armor of Ammarindar (49350 GP, Races of Faerun) grants Uncanny Dodge as a 6th level rogue. However, this doesn't prevent you from being caught flat-footed, it just lets you keep your Dex bonus.

The Dagger of Defense (58302 GP, A&EG) prevents you from being flanked (except for 16+ level Rogues). Doesn't prevent you from being flat-footed, though.

There's also the Ocular property (+2 enhancement, Champions of Ruin) that gives you all-round vision and prevents you from being flanked by anything and everything, but you can still be flat-footed.

Greaves of Aundair (5000 GP, Forge of War p. 124) lets you "immediately take a move action" 3/day, but after that you're dazed until the end of your next turn. This would solve the flat-footed problem (you moved, and thus have acted), and although being dazed would certainly suck (Quick Recovery to the rescue!), you still retain your Dex bonus to AC while dazed.

[Pilo]

There is a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm)which may allow you to do someting even if it is not your turn and even flat footed. You can buy a scroll or a wand of it.

[Curmudgeon]

Isn't that somewhat moot, since casting nerveskitter is an action?
The Spell Compendium Errata adds a special proviso for Nerveskitter:
“Unlike other immediate actions, you can cast this spell while flat-footed.” Casting Nerveskitter doesn't make you not flat-footed, but it does give you a higher place in the initiative queue, and you'll stop being flat-footed when your initiative rolls around and you have a chance to act.

Wouldn't activating any immediate-action magic item (there are several cheap ones in the MIC) remove the flat-footed condition?
From the Glossary definition of mmediate action (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_immediateaction&alpha=I):
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. If you're flat-footed, you can't use an immediate action to activate anything.

Of course, none of this discussion addresses the surprise round. It doesn't matter a bit how good your initiative would be for the first regular round of combat if you're surprised and killed before that round even happens. Generally speaking, if you don't have magical buffs like Foresight, only really good perception skills will keep you from being surprised.

[Darrin]

The Spell Compendium Errata adds a special proviso for Nerveskitter: Casting Nerveskitter doesn't make you not flat-footed, but it does give you a higher place in the initiative queue, and you'll stop being flat-footed when your initiative rolls around and you have a chance to act.


Thank you for clarifying. I was going to ask why casting nerveskitter doesn't stop you from being flat-footed (since it is an action, and being flat-footed ends when you take an action), but I checked the exact wording in the SRD, and this is the part I was missing:

"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."

Nerveskitter changes when you take "your first regular turn in the initiative order", but the action to cast it is not part of your first regular turn. So yes, you did take an action before your opponent attacked, but it wasn't "your first regular turn".

(Unrelated aside, I think the whole concept that a Player Character that spends 100% of their time as a fully-armored battletank bristling with glowing vibrating vorpal pointy-weapon-thingies, that can wiggle their fingers and cause things to explode, that spend their entire lives crawling through dungeons full of traps and acid pits and tentacle-monsters... that these PCs could *ever* be described as being "flat-footed" is one of the most ludicrous things to ever come out of D&D 3.x.)

[Dairuga]

My friend, when DMing, once gave an opponent high-heeled shoes to prevent being flat-footed.

AHAhahahaHAHAhahahAHAhaha!

The stiletto-wearing enemies literally -cannot- be flat-footed XD
That's simply brilliant.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thank you for clarifying. I was going to ask why casting nerveskitter doesn't stop you from being flat-footed (since it is an action, and being flat-footed ends when you take an action), but I checked the exact wording in the SRD, and this is the part I was missing:

"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed."

Nerveskitter changes when you take "your first regular turn in the initiative order", but the action to cast it is not part of your first regular turn. So yes, you did take an action before your opponent attacked, but it wasn't "your first regular turn".

Basically this--Curmudgeon explained my position quite well, actually, so you have him to thank for that--except that I've been operating under the assumption that Nerveskitter does count as part of "your first regular turn", as per the usual wording for immediate actions:


Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).

So casting Nerveskitter as an immediate action robs you of your swift/immediate action during your first turn in initiative; HOWEVER, you get another immediate action immediately after your turn ends (which counts against your swift actions for the next turn after your first), so if you cast Nerveskitter to win initiative, then, immediately before the second person in the initiative order can begin their turn, you can activate your second immediate action, effectively starting the combo chain.

Assuming, of course, that it absolutely MUST be started as an immediate action, and isn't something you can do in the full round that you got for winning initiative. I confess I don't know what the stated parameters of "get an immediate action off" means, but technically this should be enough--even if that immediate action (free of flat-footedness) comes with a standard and move action that could do it just as well. :smalltongue:

[Lapak]

(Unrelated aside, I think the whole concept that a Player Character that spends 100% of their time as a fully-armored battletank bristling with glowing vibrating vorpal pointy-weapon-thingies, that can wiggle their fingers and cause things to explode, that spend their entire lives crawling through dungeons full of traps and acid pits and tentacle-monsters... that these PCs could *ever* be described as being "flat-footed" is one of the most ludicrous things to ever come out of D&D 3.x.)It's not, really. You can't maintain perfect situational awareness 24/7; it's just not the way the mind works. The transition from 'expecting possible action' to 'action is actually occurring, start reacting' takes a second or four, even for the most combat-ready people alive.

A sniper can sit with their rifle pointed at a window for a moment while waiting for their target to walk in front of it and be perfectly ready to pull the trigger. But they can't sit there for three hours, knowing that the target COULD walk into view at any moment, and expect to have the same instant response when it finally happens. You just can't keep combat focus that long outside of actual combat.

EDIT: That said, I'd probably houserule that flatfootedness doesn't apply in showdown/duel situations where both sides know for a fact that they're just about to start fighting. That kind of situation would let you be ready, though I don't think the RAW make that distinction.

[Rejusu]

If you can get an item that gives you a permanent effect similar to the power Detect Hostile Intent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) that would also work. Provided these fighters aren't immune to mind-affecting stuff.

[Slipperychicken]

Contingent Spells are the items you're looking for. Complete Arcane 77. Get a 17th level wizard to craft a Contingent Timestop (during which you shall cast Foresight) on you. Should be around 15k or 30k.


Set the contingency to be some free action (like saying a short word or phrase), which you do right as initiative is rolled, then the Timestop activates and you cast Foresight. No more Flat-Footedness, and you get 1d4 rounds to do whatever.

[Dairuga]

Contingent Spells are the items you're looking for. Complete Arcane 77. Get a 17th level wizard to craft a Contingent Timestop (during which you shall cast Foresight) on you. Should be around 15k or 30k.


Set the contingency to be some free action (like saying a short word or phrase), which you do right as initiative is rolled, then the Timestop activates and you cast Foresight. No more Flat-Footedness, and you get 1d4 rounds to do whatever.

Sadly, the rules about Contigency has -this- to say:
"You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled."

But hey, If such a mage casts Contigency on you (level 17 wizard can cast up to level 5 spells into contigency, according to this. I am not sure how you can cast contigency on others, but I am sure someone have found a way), he can cast "Celerity" on you. Boom, you gain a standard action, and have now had a turn.

When your next turn comes around, that is, after initiative is rolled, you will lose your turn in being dazed; but you have already, hopefully, gotten to attack once; or moved to somewhere safe, and can wait our your turn there. You have however no penalty to AC while being dazed, so you are not flat-footed, at least.

Tadaa.

[kardar233]

Complete Arcane (as he cited) has rules for Crafted Contingent Spells, which come out of your WBL budget and don't have a spell level cap. You can have up to your HD in Contingent Spells.

So yes, Crafted Contingent Time Stop works. Just not using the Contingency spell.

[Khedrac]

re Uncanny Dodge - don't waste time trying to get this, it does not prevent you being flat-footed, it merely allows you to keep you dexterity bonus to AC while flat-footed thus you still cannot use immediate actions etc.

On the "bump my initiative" line there's a helm in Complete Champion that gives a bonus to initiative.

[Dairuga]

Complete Arcane (as he cited) has rules for Crafted Contingent Spells, which come out of your WBL budget and don't have a spell level cap. You can have up to your HD in Contingent Spells.

So yes, Crafted Contingent Time Stop works. Just not using the Contingency spell.

ooh... I did not know that.

Thank you for clarifying... That actually opens up for a -whole- lot of shenanigans *w*

[Curmudgeon]

re Uncanny Dodge - don't waste time trying to get this, it does not prevent you being flat-footed, it merely allows you to keep you dexterity bonus to AC while flat-footed thus you still cannot use immediate actions etc.
Except for the Scout version of Uncanny Dodge, which specifically states:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a scout cannot be caught flat-footed and reacts to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. Other than that special proviso, it operates like the Barbarian and Rogue class abilities.

This is moot for this character (a Wizard), but could matter a lot for other characters who take a 2-level Scout dip.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, if you can't find a way to be shapechanged into a dire tortoise before combat (persistent spell comes to mind), or a way to boost your caster level high enough so that two castings of (metamagic rod) extended foresight last all of the waking day, then craft contingent spell is your best bet.

[olentu]

I believe that an item property in Weapons of Legacy will do that. Menu D or E, IIRC.

I am pretty sure that cunning (the one that stops flat-footedness) is in menu D.

[Douglas]

I think there's some important context here that's missing from the OP: if I'm remembering the other thread correctly, this is for an arena combat type battle where both who goes first and whether pre-buffing is possible are both determined by fiat rather than any kind of realism or rolling. More specifically, it will be a fight with four matches, each with a different combination of fiat rulings:
A) zoobob9 goes first, any amount of pre-battle buffing is allowed
B) zoobob9 goes first, no pre-battle buffing whatsoever
C) the opponent goes first, any amount of pre-battle buffing is allowed
D) the opponent goes first, no pre-battle buffing whatsoever

zoobob9 is asking for something to help him for the match corresponding to case D. Thus, no tactic that relies on either initiative manipulation or pre-cast spells will work.

Given that constraint, all I can think of is the Weapons of Legacy property Chess435 mentioned. You can get it from Mau-Jehe (pages 114-116), or by designing your own custom legacy weapon and selecting the Cunning ability from menu D (page 193).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If crafted contingent spells count as pre-buffs then so does all the gear the fighters are wearing, at least IMO.

[Slipperychicken]

zoobob9 is asking for something to help him for the match corresponding to case D. Thus, no tactic that relies on either initiative manipulation or pre-cast spells will work.

Contingent Spells, despite the name, are items and not spells. They are presented in Complete Arcane under the heading "New Types of Items" on page 139. Not one spell needs to be cast, even during their creation. They aren't even restricted to casters: a Commoner can bear a Contingent Spell just the same as a Wizard.


EDIT: +1 to what Goodbyesobersday said. Contingent Spells are crafted just the same as any other magic item.

[Douglas]

Crafted Contingent spells probably would get past the "no buffs" rule, but they are consumable items (and rather expensive ones) and I have no idea what, if any, rules this little contest has about consumables.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Fair point. Then again, restricting consumables probably hurts the mundanes just as much...

[FMArthur]

Absolutely anyone can exploit CCS because it's just an item you can buy in towns, and it's a bigger headache for you than it is for them if you introduce it when they collectively have more wealth than you do.

If you use Craft Contingent Spells in your game with any effectiveness, the whole game starts being put together around the mechanic just to challenge you and nothing in your world is reliable or sensible anymore because everyone has them. Craft Contingent Spell is ruinous to the game as a whole IMO and should just be left out of contests.

[zlefin]

in an arena situation; i have a hard time justifying anyone as being flatfooted from start of combat. I guess it depends also on what counts as the "start" of a combat; but regardless of when exactly it is; any real person would be fully ready to act the whole time.

[zoobob9]

I think there's some important context here that's missing from the OP: if I'm remembering the other thread correctly, this is for an arena combat type battle where both who goes first and whether pre-buffing is possible are both determined by fiat rather than any kind of realism or rolling. More specifically, it will be a fight with four matches, each with a different combination of fiat rulings:
A) zoobob9 goes first, any amount of pre-battle buffing is allowed
B) zoobob9 goes first, no pre-battle buffing whatsoever
C) the opponent goes first, any amount of pre-battle buffing is allowed
D) the opponent goes first, no pre-battle buffing whatsoever

zoobob9 is asking for something to help him for the match corresponding to case D. Thus, no tactic that relies on either initiative manipulation or pre-cast spells will work.

Given that constraint, all I can think of is the Weapons of Legacy property Chess435 mentioned. You can get it from Mau-Jehe (pages 114-116), or by designing your own custom legacy weapon and selecting the Cunning ability from menu D (page 193).

All of this is correct, and I believe that it's fair to say that Douglas and Chess 435 have won this thread.

I now plan on grabbing an Item of Legacy with Cunning, and a contingent spell that removes daze (I haven't looked at a spell yet, but I assume that at least one is out there) to go off whenever I become dazed, then maybe a few more. Maybe a contingent Celerity for whenever I become undazed. This way, I can drop Quick Recovery and add Craft Contingent spell if I so choose, I'll just have it to justify why I have the Contingent spell.

Broken? Probably. But I've been told this was impossible by more than a few people, and everything has been considered fair game.

Thank you everyone for all of the help!

[Terazul]

Custom Weapon of Legacy that gives Cunning (Ex) at 11th level. Cunning is an ability that literally says you can never be flat-footed. Probably not going to get that right now.

[The Dark Fiddler]

...Is your friend Curmudgeon? Why the hell did they think that would prevent them from being flat-footed? Except in the most literal definition of the phrase, which has nothing to do with combat.


It was a joke. It was a joke about exactly what you said.

Oh, I wish it was a joke. I'm still not sure, to this day, if he was trying to be funny or if he seriously misunderstood what flat-footed meant.

I like to think it was the first one, since the enemy was basically this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as2NnBChzl0).