League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!

[TechnOkami]

League of Legends XXXII:
Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!


You can sign up for League of Legends here (http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/en/signup/). It's a free MOBA, based on Defence of the Ancients.

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If no reply's been made about adding you after a day or two, first check the lists to see if you've been added, if not, feel free to post again or PM me. Any incorrectly formatted posts will probably be overlooked.

NA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
0tt3r | 0tt3r
9mm | cwcriner
Adumbration | Benefice
aethernox | aethernox
Alemil | Alemil
Alter | AlterForm
Anonomuss | OpticalSage
ArcanistSupreme | Arcanist Supreme
Arbitrarity | Arbitrarity
Archangel Yuki | Yocham
assassin89 | nineballcirno
Astrella | Sirroelivan
AtwasAwamps | AtwasAwamps
Aurenthal | Estor
Baron Corm | Baron Corm
Baxter | Thefettered
BinaryMage | BinaryMage
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Bliss Authority | Companion N00b
Caradryan | Ying Quliang
cdstephens | cdstephens
Chess435 | Chess435
Copacetic | Azbu
Creed | Moarzed
CrnvorousMeece | CarnivorousMeece
Croverus | Croverus
Cute_Riolu | Cute Riolu
Dallas-Dakota | MustacheMan
Dante & Vergil | Raphiezar
Darth Mario | Darth Mario
Daverin | Daverin
Dentrag2 | Callinectes
dgnslyr | GANKERLagann
Dichotomy | Kaellin
Djinn in Tonic | The Djinn
Dogmantra | Dogmantra
douglas | DouglasM
Dragonus45 | Dragonus45
Drager0 | Drager0
Dragor | Supernaturalist
Draken | Draken Frosthand
DrakeRaids | DrakeRaids057
Dralnu | TomerIsHot
dukexx | JacksonHicks
Duos | DapperGuy
Eldariel | Elealar
efdf | efdf
Elagune | Chopstyx
EndlessWrath | Andurin
Errandir | Ramses III
EternalMelon | EternalMelon
faith | Ferrovax101
FantomFang | FantomFang
Faulty | FaultyClockwork
Fawkes | Count Fawkes
FeverFox | Alcopop
Flechair | Master Zealot
Folytopo | Folytopo
Frankelshtein | McFinkelstein
Fredaintdead | Fredthefighter
Gallus | Anechois
Geigan | Geigan
glemis | glemis
Giant Panda | Le Shirrif
Godskook | Bethor Kookalian
Gourtox | Gourtox
Gruffard | Gruffard
Hanuman | HanumanXoO
Hatevah | Hatevah
Incomp | Incomp
InyutheBeatIs | Believe Inyu
Istari | IstariK
Ivellius | Ivellius
Jamin | CapZich
Joran | Jorana
KaizoMK | KaizoMK
Kara Kuro | RaptorKitty
Kciemir | Ghostface Ki11ah
Kettle | Kettle747
king.com | kingcom
Kinslayer | HaunterReqiuem
kmchii | kmchii
Kopaka | CelesHurricane
Kwazey | Kwazey
LegoShrimp | LegoShrimp
litewarior | litewarior
Lix Lorn | ElixiaLorn
Lord Generic | Lord Generic
LordShotGun | LordShotGun
LostEnder | LostEnder
Low-Key | TheFuzziestBear
lvl 1 sharnian | StarryEagle
Lyxie | Lyxie
Maeglin_Dubh | Tycho Velius
Makensha | Jarbis
MammonAzrael | MammonAzrael
Manticoran | Manticoran
MasatoHyuga | MasatoHyuga
Master_Rahl22 | Goltoth
master256 | QWERTYSTOP
Math_Mage | Mathmage
Mattarias, King. | Mattarias
Malmagor Andrigal | Madmal
Maxios | Maxios20
Meatshield#236 | Meatshield236
Merellis | Merellis
Mike_the_Mystic | Kraemer
Milskidasith | Milskidasith
Mindfreak586 | Mindfreak586
Mirrinus | Parallaxal
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Moklok | KokoBWare
mrzomby | mrzomby
Mtg_player_zach | MtgPlayerZach
Mushroom Ninja | Mushroom Ninja
Mutant Bunny | WhollySpart
Nadevoc | Xenik
Nanoblack | IwearSILLYhats
Nargan | Naryuk
Necroticplague | Yamidamian
Neoseanster | Neoseanster
NeoVid | NeoVid
neXianXavia | neXianXavia
NotAEvilToaster | NeonPie
Octopus Jack | Thalric
PersonMan | Nsev
Pie Guy | Qwazes
pilvento | Kandrass
PhoeKun | PhoeKun
Poison Fish | Baron Von Flib
Protecar | Godreig
Protecar | Atk
Psychotic | SquirrelFish
Qaera | Qaera
Raistlin1040 | Sanevale
Rama | Nargus
Raroy | setokaibasmt
RationalGoblin | AtillathePun
Raveypoos | Rhaviewoos
recklessabaddon | recklessabaddon
revolver kobold | A Magic Kobold
Reynard | Duke Reynington
Serpentine | Lady Serpentine
Shades of Gray | PierreAbelard
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker65
Shadowleaf | Shadowdancing
Shadow Lord | ShadowLordgiantitp
ShortOne | LittlePoppy
SidCoolios | Irazel
Silverraptor | Silverraptor
Sircarp | Sircarp
SirSigfried | LibertarianSDR
Slash_712 | Catfud
sofawall | sofawall
St. Viers | St.Viers
Starfols | Starfols
SuperPanda | Lokilar
SweetRein | Riot Reinboom
TalonDemonKing | TalonDemonKing
TechnOkami | Techn0kami
Temotei | Temotei221
Terazul | Allegretto
term1nally s1ck | silverdevilboy
Thanatos 51-50 | Thanatos Erebus
The_Fiery_Tower | TheFieryTower
TheGlowingRogue | I Glow In Dark
Thethan | Thethan
The Rabbler | Paco H Jones
The Shadowmind | The Shadowmind
The Valiant Turtle | Valiant Turtle
Thrantar | Thrantar
Thrawn183 | Thrawnyboy
throtecutter | throtecutter
toasty | toastymow
Tono | Tono Chou
Treayn | Treayn
tribble | Smallbluedot
Tychris1 | Tychris1
userpay | userpay
Vauron | Vauron
Volatar | The Volatar
wandiya | wandiya
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Winthur | Seyruun
woodzyowl | Woodzyowl
Zabel_Zarock | Jon Talbain
Zeful | Zeful
ZeltArruin | ZeltArruin
Zemro | Shivic
ZeroNumerous | ZeroNumerous
Zeteni | Zeteni
zolga | TheZolga[/table]

EU Server--West
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Acromos | Crannoch
Adumbration | Adumbration
Anonomuss | Anonomuss
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Cheers | Sam vds
Cyborg Mage | Cyborg Mage98
Eldariel | Elealar
Even Human | SlyGuyMcFly
Gauntlet | Isva
HalfDragonCube | giantmudkip
Maxymiuk | Maxymiuk
Mc. Lovin | B1GB1RDB4G3L
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Morph Bark | Morpheus Bob
Nargan | Naryuk
PersonMan | Scarge
Reynard | Duke Reyn
Talesin | Fridgecake
term1nally s1ck | Silverdevilboy
That'd_be_me | AntiLocke
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Ziren | Zirenoid
zolga | MasterZolga[/table]

EU Server--Nordic & East
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Dada | Scrattlebeard
Posca | LDRC
Rockbird | Rockbird[/table]

EU Server--Unspecified
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Abakus | Terpfen
Alemil | Alemil
Ayra | Ayramatao
Darwin | DarwinBeGood
Endoperez | Endoperez
Heliomance | Sidhe de Grian
Kurrel | GrinningOni
littlebottom | Littlebottom
lord_khaine | Lord_khaine
Narazil | Narazil
Narkis | Narkis
Penthar | Malderon
Raviepoos | Skittles Unicorn
Shadowleaf | AncientPharma
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker64
Socratov | Mbutu
Voidhawk | Sidhe ne Awk
Volatar | VolatarUK
Zefir | Einerwie
Zombywoof | Zombywoof[/table]

SEA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
abadguy | Smite Thy Enemy[/table]

MUMBLE
Download here! (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/)
Our main means of communication is a mumble server, playing host to a variety of games, including LoL. We're quite a tight knit community, get to know us! Hanging about is a good way to find a game, and if you don't fancy playing something there's always a good chance of a friendly chat. Contact Djinn_in_Tonic via PM if you have a question or want to donate money to keep the server running.
Address: fish.mumbleboxes.com
Port: 36003

Admins: Djinn_in_Tonic (Djinn); Darth Mario; ShortOne (LittlePoppy, Raven); Dogmantra; Nano (Nanoceraptor).

STREAMS
Some of us run streams. You can watch them here.
Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
Lyxie (http://www.own3d.tv/lyxie)

GUIDES
Sometimes people write guides and post them in this thread. Other times pro players write guides that people then post in this thread. They often end up here.
General
Guide to General Common Jungler Set-Ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575), by Mtg_player_zach
Small Guide to Jungle Counterpicking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379254&postcount=98), by Winthur
General Guide to AD Carries (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9234)
Into the Wild - Guide to Being a Better Jungler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10867111#post10867111) by Mtg_player_zach
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Turning Skill Into Elo: Solo Queue Mindset And Methodology (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1220673) by MathMage
How to be a Good Team Leader (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1374492) by Darth Mario

Specific Champions
Riven 101 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12579737&postcount=204), by Arbitrarity
Highly Artistic Blitzcrank guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12380155&postcount=115), by Dogmantra
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
Jax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11252389&postcount=652) by Mtg_player_zach
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra
Anivia Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11514141&postcount=845) by Eldariel
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11938481&postcount=1029) by MathMage

CLASSY VIDEOS FOR CLASSY PEOPLE*
Watching these videos makes you a classier person. Fact.
Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)
Combinasion BOOM! League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzsXR4sM_Y)
All in the Cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9d3342IXSs)
No One Ganks Like Garen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4uiTQsRJg)
Rammus Taunts Everyone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8Q4PM4PXM)

COMICS AND PICS
It's like your eyes are getting a massage.
LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF

TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
Proof we're not all experiencing collective haullucinations.

League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF And Janna! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234631)
League of Legends XXX: Must be Summoner Level 18 to View (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231927)
League of Legends XXIX: Are Nerfs Vayne In This Grave Situation? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229460)
League of Legends XXVIII: Ahri-Vederci, Dodge. Hello, Viktory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12466887)
League of Legends XXVII: Your Sister's Hotter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225730)
League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223894)
League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221849)
League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219436)
League of Legends XXIII: gunbladeface.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217744)
League of Legends XXII: Teamwork OP, Nerf Nao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215725)
League of Legends XXI: For The Love Of God Amumu, Stop Crying! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213794)
League of Legends XX: Riot's in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211977)
League of Legends XIX: 15 million players, and nary a Morgana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210332)
League of Legends: XVIII: ┻━┻ ︵ （╯°□°）╯ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207908)
League of Legends XVII: Gondor Has No Tank, Gondor Needs No Tank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205488)
League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203298)
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10646164#post10646164)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)
*Flair and class provided by your local Dogmantra!

[ex cathedra]

This thread title sucks. No one else even voted for it. Way to be a team player, Techno. :smallamused:

Also, can we ditch the red text on the thread number? That was added for thread XXX and it isn't really relevant anymore.

Anyways, Lulu isn't my cup of tea so I spent my saved up IP on a set of Lifesteal quints. There are so many opportunities that have opened up before me.

Edit:

Also, a ton of the guides are uselessly outdated and only a few of them have worthwhile, how should I say, artistic value. We should do some scrubbing sometime.

[TechnOkami]

This thread title sucks. No one else even voted for it. Way to be a team player, Techno. :smallamused:

Also, can we ditch the red text on the thread number? That was added for thread XXX and it isn't really relevant anymore.

Anyways, Lulu isn't my cup of tea so I spent my saved up IP on a set of Lifesteal quints. There are so many opportunities that have opened up before me.

Seeing that the system of voting can be quickly overturned at the tip of a hat... *looking directly at Dog*

But no, I will be all the greedy and carve this into the GitP LoL thread's history.

And yes, I'll change the red text.

[ex cathedra]

Not too sure how I feel about Shen jungle in the first place. It's safe and it has decent ganks, but he's so slow. I think it's like Irelia jungle in a lot of ways, now that I think of it. Neither of them are particularly worthwhile compared to their viability in lane.

But Dog's well-known and relatively charismatic. And Dog's a cutie. So we break rules for Dog. This thread title doesn't even have anything to do with LoL or even the LoL thread. Just my two cents.

[Eldariel]

Loving Shen right now.

Decided to try jungle, started Cloth+5, then rolled around jungling and ganking and counterjungling until I was level 9 and had enough for Merc Treads and Aegis both.

Best sustain ever.

I'd say either Boots+3 or Regrowth+1 is the way to go. Cloth+5 is just wasteful on him.

[ex cathedra]

You could probably start Boots+1+Ward if you're running a runepage like that, considering his massive sustain, but I'm not sure why you would. Shen's really mobile but he's a bit too slow to really counterjungle anyone. Just a thought.

I need to try Boots+3 Nocturne with lifesteal quints. I can start Doran's Blade on champions like Lee Sin and Riven and still have as much lifesteal as a pre-nerf Vampiric Scepter. Speaking of which, I'll probably end up doing way more Doran's stacking in jungle considering that the other forms of lifesteal took a hit. It was already good, this just made it better.

[Qaera]

Jungle Katarina. AD/Armor/ArPen runes, 21/9/0 masteries. R>Q>W>E.
WolvesBlueWraithsGolemRed. I like Dorans start, Armor3 works, Boots5 works. Wriggles is delicious. Build Hybrid.

Too strong, new meta. Expect nerfs soon.

This is a joke I'm so bored with calculus homework ughhhh I do want to make this work though

~ ♅

[Eldariel]

Not too sure how I feel about Shen jungle in the first place. It's safe and it has decent ganks, but he's so slow. I think it's like Irelia jungle in a lot of ways, now that I think of it. Neither of them are particularly worthwhile compared to their viability in lane.

Jungle Shen has the advantage of exerting pressure on all lanes by virtue of existing though. All ganks will automatically get counterganked, any aggressive play will be punished and all your laners are capable of towerdiving. The advantage of doing this from the jungle vs. the lane is that in the jungle there's no opposing laner to stun you out of your ults and you don't lose a tower for ulting.

[toasty]

Jungle Shen has the advantage of exerting pressure on all lanes by virtue of existing though. All ganks will automatically get counterganked, any aggressive play will be punished and all your laners are capable of towerdiving. The advantage of doing this from the jungle vs. the lane is that in the jungle there's no opposing laner to stun you out of your ults and you don't lose a tower for ulting.

This has always been the arguement, and I don't exactly buy it when Shen can take Flash+Teleport and can outlane a lot of different heroes...

But then again, I also don't think Shen's 6 ganks are anything to write home about. All he can really do is farm at a moderately decent pace. This makes him a very poor jungler as compared to Nocturne (lvl1 threat, strong jungle, good ganks), Moakai/Alistair (both are strong late game tanks and have huge CC for early ganks), Mundo/Shyvanna (both have insanely fast jungle and Mundo actually has good ganks) or Lee Sin (all around control and a lack of buff reliance for ... anything plus a variety of starting options make Lee Sin one of the best junglers in the game).

Honestly, as long as Mundo, Shyvanna, Moakai, Alistair, Nocturne and Lee Sin remain in their current states I really don't see room for anyone else as far as competitive junglers go. Udyr and WW don't function as well as these junglers. Both have weak ganks (pre six), Udyr's farming potential is good, but his laning presence currently is just much stronger. What Udyr used to be able to do (farm, really fast) has been shown to be inferior to Mundo and Shyvanna. Rammus might be a very good late game tank, and he might be underrated, but Alistair and Moakai probably have better jungling mid-game, which is rammus' biggest weakness: his transition to teamfighting when ganks are unsuccessful is weak because his ability to continuously clear the jungle is very poor. Trundle is probably hugely underplayed just because he really doesn't do anything particularly well, except poke comps, and that's just because Pillar is overpowered, much like Anivia's wall is probably the best spell in her kit. But Trundle still suffers from having moderate ganks and only moderate clearing ability. In fact, that's probably what makes him so underplayed.

Jarvan might be a pick we start to see more often, but I doubt it. It seems to me that people just don't like him as a hero, and that despite all the free damage and free stats he can provide his team his CC and utility are not enough for a true tank and tankydps like Mundo make him inferior . . . somehow. I'm actually generally confused as to why people don't pick J4 more often.

Malphite/Sejuanni, and Amumu are other heroes that we don't see. I think Amumu is underplayed because he sucks, while the other two are underplayed because no one really values pure tanks lacking hard CC pre-six right now. Further emphasis on early game, which these heroes are not particularly good at, mean they fall further down in usefulness. Its not that Malphite particularly sucks, for instance. He is a fine champion. Its just that his usefulness as a general pick is rather low. This results in him being underplayed because when you can play him you'd rather just play a hero you are better with. Why play Malphite, even if he is a perfect counterpick, if you know another hero (Mundo, Nocturne, Alistair) can operate against the enemy team just fine and you know you are in fact better with that hero? But that's another entire problem all together.

[Eldariel]

Shen is, however, the only global moving ult in the game so he's by default better than all junglers without global ults. Really, the fact that you don't have to leave the jungle to maintain presence makes up for his poor clear speed since unlike every other jungler in the game, he can afford to sit in the jungle all game. In other words, he jungles slower than fast clearers but he has extra jungle time to make up for it and obviously the best kit out of all junglers.

It's no coincidence that when CLG got Shen in Hannover they jungled him instead of toplaning him (though part of that is of course Hotshot being a worse Shen than SV). And yeah, you can run TP and that's fine (I personally run Heal/Ignite on solotop Shen; Flash feels eminently unnecessary on him and Heal makes the ult that much bigger a swing in a fight) but that doesn't really allow you to hold the tower since you're still fighting for a long time while enemy is free to do whatever they want on your lane. In general, lane Shen will lose his tower unless he wins his lane hard and that's by design and something you sign up for when you run lane Shen. Jungle Shen sidesteps this issue.

The real question is whether Shen is better or worse than the alternative junglers/tops and IMHO he's extremely high on both trees. I don't think there's a single jungler or toplaner I'd pick over Shen given the option; there's simply no other such game-changing champion currently. Like, pre-buff Shen was strong but now that they made him a Skarner-level duelist with no need for blue, he's suddenly both omnipresent and super-high impact after ulting.


Jarvan isn't being picked 'cause people don't happen to be picking him. Every good jungler acknowledges that he's strong, they just don't happen to prefer him right now. He has more than enough CC and he's a bruiser; he's like a physical Amumu with stronger early 1v1 and mobility (but slower clears).

Rammus is kinda eclipsed by Lee and Riven though his early ganks are obviously better; the fact that both can start red into CC-heavy ganks, and don't really have trouble without blue gives them a significant edge Rammus lacks. That said Rammus is still a fine pick and obviously has a niché and the lack of Rammus-picks is more of a factor of many top teams currently favoring aggressive counterjungle strategies.

And I'll still say that you people are wrong about Amumu but whatever, we won't come to an agreement on that. Give it 6 months tops and Amumu will be played again without any buffs. Right now the arguments against him remind me of the (in retrospect) ridiculous arguments against Alistar in the year when he wasn't played at all with his 1.0 AP ratios, 75% ult and all that.

[ex cathedra]

Udyr's ganks aren't weak, per se, he just has bad matchups against certain laners. Still, though, he fulfills a different role than Shyvana or Mundo. Both of them, Mundo especially, are just high DPS meatsacks in a teamfight. Udyr teamfights like a tank. They're styles aren't really comparable. Some comps would rather have additional DPS in a teamfights (double bruiser comps come to mind, especially those without hard carries) while some comps (Double AP) have much better synergy with champions like Maokai and Udyr.

Udyr's ganks are stronger than Shyvana's and similar to Mundo's and he's actually capable of peeling in a teamfight. He's a support-tank, they're both bruisers. He's much more similar to Maokai, if Maokai had weaker ganks but was capable of strong counterjungling.

J4 is probably underplayed because of other champions. His playstyle is really similar to a combination of Lee Sin's and Alistar's, and I think that most people who would jungle J4 just play one of those two champions instead.


And I'll still say that you people are wrong about Amumu but whatever, we won't come to an agreement on that. Give it 6 months tops and Amumu will be played again without any buffs. Right now the arguments against him remind me of the (in retrospect) ridiculous arguments against Alistar in the year when he wasn't played at all with his 1.0 AP ratios, 75% ult and all that.

Well, Alistar's entire kit is or has been broken, and I don't think that anything but Amumu's Q/R really compare. Alistar has/had the best base stats, the best level 2 ganks, the strongest type of CC, a stupidly powerful ultimate, some of the best initiation, and the most mana efficient heal in the game. He was literally AP Sion with more damage, more utility, twice as much CC, and almost four times as much survivability.

Amumu potentially has the best teamfighting ult in the game, but it's held back by being a PBAoE with a gigantic cooldown.

[Eldariel]

J4 is probably underplayed because of other champions. His playstyle is really similar to a combination of Lee Sin's and Alistar's, and I think that most people who would jungle J4 just play one of those two champions isntead.

He's underplayed 'cause he got nerfed and people kinda stopped playing him. It's the same story as with e.g. Orianna; still incredibly strong but just not played as much.

He has more damage than Alistar (mostly Martial Cadence) and more CC than Lee Sin; he falls squarely between the two as an equally viable pick with solid L2 ganks and solid clear and ridiculous free stats.


Well, Alistar's entire kit is or has been broken, and I don't think that anything but Amumu's Q/R really compare. Alistar has/had the best base stats, the best level 2 ganks, the strongest type of CC, a stupidly powerful ultimate, some of the best initiation, and the most mana efficient heal in the game. He was literally AP Sion with more damage, more utility, twice as much CC, and almost four times as much survivability.

Amumu potentially has the best teamfighting ult in the game, but it's held back by being a PBAoE with a gigantic cooldown.

The equivalence I'm drawing is that people kinda seem to want for him to be bad (see also Ezreal months back when junglers decided to start talking crap about him; suddenly he's the third most picked AD in Hannover with better win percentage than both Corki and Kog'Maw) and come up with a ton of silly theorycraft about why that's the case and then it becomes upon the truth itself. Like, he has clear weaknesses in early fighting but I don't feel those weaknesses are really big enough to make him unviable even on tournament level; just currently not preferred due to the types of comps top teams like to run.

This is pretty much what happened to Alistar for a massive amount of time too; he was always good but people began pretending his cooldowns are too long and that other champs fill his role better and that he isn't worth picking. Had this belief not been so widespread chances are he might've been found already back in WCG 2010 or so; AP Alistar was practically overpowered back then and support Alistar was as good as ever.

Basically, I'm just saying the collective has a track record of being horribly wrong about champion viability (see also e.g. Evelynn, Jax, Kayle, Akali and...yeah, about 50% of the champion-base).

[ex cathedra]

Yeah, that's probably a good point. He's just so much fun to play, I don't understand why he isn't more popular. Great steroids and three forms of CC just make him absurd. He's also tier 1 in my list of champions with Fins.

He is a bit blue-dependent, though. Oh, I wonder how well Lifesteal quints would work on him? His actual jungle seems really similar to Nocturne's, so I imagine that it would have a fairly large (albeit less so than with Noct himself) effect.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, that's probably a good point. He's just so much fun to play, I don't understand why he isn't more popular. Great steroids and three forms of CC just make him absurd. He's also tier 1 in my list of champions with Fins.

He is a bit blue-dependent, though. Oh, I wonder how well Lifesteal quints would work on him? His actual jungle seems really similar to Nocturne's, so I imagine that it would have a fairly large (albeit less so than with Noct himself) effect.

I guess you could run those; I personally just run AD Quints instead. When it happens to suit my fancy I run Vampiric Scepter jungle on him; it works though goes low. Probably not recommended for serious play, especially with the jungle nerfs. But yeah, I like my damage, however I find that's probably a matter down to personal preference as there are arguments both ways.

[ex cathedra]

Well, I can't help but think that boots+3 or Doran's Blade are the optimal starts on every strong level-2 ganker in the game, and Lifesteal quints could potentially go a long way to make both of those starts more reliable.

[togapika]

So I need someone to give me tips on a weird subject. I need help learning to play with an unlocked screen.

The Next person to tell me how to unlock my screen gets a warwick to the face...

I often play characters like Ezreal with many skillshots, but on the purple team, the orientation tends to make it difficult to see and land said skillshots with a locked screen. Seeing as how a locked screen is how I am accustomed to playing the game, I need help.

[Silverraptor]

This was not entirely nice to overide votes like this Techno. Especially for a thread title than most of us don't get.:smallfrown:

But, whats done is done. So party on, I guess.

[fred dref]

So I need someone to give me tips on a weird subject. I need help learning to play with an unlocked screen.

The Next person to tell me how to unlock my screen gets a warwick to the face...

I often play characters like Ezreal with many skillshots, but on the purple team, the orientation tends to make it difficult to see and land said skillshots with a locked screen. Seeing as how a locked screen is how I am accustomed to playing the game, I need help.

Honestly, I have no idea how to teach it. The very first computer games I played were sidescrollers, but after that I played multiple RTS games. The little flicks to the side of the screen to move it quickly became second nature, and I've never had trouble since. Honestly, playing a few games like Starcraft or Command and Conquer (or even better Warcraft 3, the LoL engine is based on WC3 engine) will probably get you used to unlocked screen in a hurry.

[TechnOkami]

This was not entirely nice to overide votes like this Techno. Especially for a thread title than most of us don't get.:smallfrown:

But, whats done is done. So party on, I guess.

Ok, I've gotten too many grumbles. Which won?

[Math_Mage]

I imagine transitioning from locked to unlocked screen is much like transitioning from default casting to smartcasting: you just have to suffer through the first few games of fumbling with your controls, and then something clicks and you wonder why you ever played the old way.

And in the case of smartcasting, you are occasionally reminded of why when you botch a Tormented Soil placement and hit none of the creeps you were trying to farm. With unlocked screen, presumably it will happen when you lose track of your champion in a teamfight and forget to use space to center on your character.

[ex cathedra]

There was a lot of conversation on the last two pages so I'm under the impression that a lot of people didn't get the chance or didn't care to pitch in their opinion.

Not counting the people who nominated the titles, :
"Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!" : 2
"Little Lulu we love you-Lu..." : 1
"This game, we're using ALL the colors!" : 1
"I think Garen is homeless...." : 1
"Stealth remake so well hidden even RIOT can't find it!" : 1
"Stop Hugging That Tower and Come Facecheck Our Bushes" : 1
This title: 1.

I don't get like more than half of these. ._.

[Silverraptor]

Ok, I've gotten too many grumbles. Which won?

I don't know. Its fine I guess, just post in parentheses explaining the joke for all of us. This is what we give credit to Dog is that the couple times he high-jacked threads from votes, atleast we all understood the joke or meaning behind it and went along with it.

[TechnOkami]

I don't know. Its fine I guess, just post in parentheses explaining the joke for all of us. This is what we give credit to Dog is that the couple times he high-jacked threads from votes, atleast we all understood the joke or meaning behind it and went along with it.

-___-

*brb, looking back @ the old thread, changing the title*

Changed.

[Dogmantra]

I imagine transitioning from locked to unlocked screen is much like transitioning from default casting to smartcasting: you just have to suffer through the first few games of fumbling with your controls, and then something clicks and you wonder why you ever played the old way.
bleh, smartcasting
I feel like p'rhaps you are a little biased in your analysis of what normally happens, but smartcasting is icky and I still screw up Flashes because of the instant smartcast on it.


I don't know. Its fine I guess, just post in parentheses explaining the joke for all of us. This is what we give credit to Dog is that the couple times he high-jacked threads from votes, atleast we all understood the joke or meaning behind it and went along with it.
don't ruin it with the truth I want to keep going on believing it's because I am charismatic and also a little bit sexy 8)

(and that would be she hijacked the threads)

[Neoseanster]

Wee, I got my third ever pentakill the other night, as Udyr. Uh, not that it seemed like it was particularly earned, but hey! I was doing ranked 5s with some friends... and it turns out, the teams you get matched with in your placement games are, for the most part, horrendous.

This game was against... Sion/Xin Zhao duo top, Fiddlesticks mid, Nasus/Volibear duo bottom. No jungler, no AD carry, no support... unsurprisingly, it turned out awfully one-sided. I had free reign of both jungles, and almost every gank turned out kills. An early double kill for Kennen let him continue to easily 2v1, picking up more kills on his own. Stuff just snowballed from there, then I penta'd in a teamfight at their nexus turrets just before the game ended. Nothing glamorous or skillful, just uh, instantly murdering everything. It was a good kind of mindless fun.

_____________________________________________

I still haven't gotten down smartcasting myself, I just use standard. >_> I should probably fix that at some point... it's hard to break old habits.

[ex cathedra]

I was doing ranked 5s with some friends... and it turns out, the teams you get matched with in your placement games are, for the most part, horrendous.

i wouldn't know anything about this and it definitely isn't relevant to my like 20+/7ish W/L ratio in ranked 5's. Though, i don't think we quite ran into players *that* bad.

[That'd_be_me]

So guys I'm looking for advice again

how do I jungle mundo

[Eldariel]

So guys I'm looking for advice again

how do I jungle mundo

Armor Yellows, max out Burning Agony and you're about done. I like 9/21/0 on him with Agony -> Cleaver -> Agony, and Spellvamp Quints are pretty good on him since actually building Spellvamp isn't gonna happen.

[XiaoTie]

So I got in a Solo Queue Draft game and the guy said he was banning Eve, Karma and Anivia because they were secret OP champs (and 2 other guys support this idea). And once our ban came and he actually started to do that my troll alarm started ringing and I dodged.

Were they really trolling (I mean, I could see an Anivia ban, but the other 2...) or is there something secret that noobs like me don't know?

[Shades of Gray]

So I need someone to give me tips on a weird subject. I need help learning to play with an unlocked screen.

I often play characters like Ezreal with many skillshots, but on the purple team, the orientation tends to make it difficult to see and land said skillshots with a locked screen. Seeing as how a locked screen is how I am accustomed to playing the game, I need help.

You can decrease the size of the HUD in the options menu, giving you more visibility.

[ex cathedra]

A lot of people are less than perfectly serious in normal mode, draft or otherwise.

And no, those champions probably aren't worth bans. Rule of thumb, ban Shen/Shaco/Shyvana. Morgana, Rammus, Lee Sin are also common. I think that Ryze would be banworthy if anyone bothered to play him.

[Eldariel]

A lot of people are less than perfectly serious in normal mode, draft or otherwise.

And no, those champions probably aren't worth bans. Rule of thumb, ban Shen/Shaco/Shyvana. Morgana, Rammus, Lee Sin are also common. I think that Ryze would be banworthy if anyone bothered to play him.

Shyvana isn't on the same level as the rest, far as stomping goes. If you're banning Shyv, mite as well ban Mundo and Udyr too since they do basically the same thing with minor alterations.

Really, as long as you ban Shen and Shaco, the rest can be kinda whatever. Kassadin, Cassiopeia, Morgana, Kennen, Lee Sin, Shyvana, Rammus, there's a ton of champs to fit those shoes (and if you plan on playing Karthus, ban Soraka).

[Laudandus]

So I got in a Solo Queue Draft game and the guy said he was banning Eve, Karma and Anivia because they were secret OP champs (and 2 other guys support this idea). And once our ban came and he actually started to do that my troll alarm started ringing and I dodged.

Were they really trolling (I mean, I could see an Anivia ban, but the other 2...) or is there something secret that noobs like me don't know?

Anivia I think is sleeper sleeper op, especially if people are getting hit by her Q at early levels (if you get hit by that, you're dead).

Karma is really strong in lane and if you don't know how to deal with her, she could seem pretty op.

I don't know why anyone would ban or pick Eve

[ex cathedra]

Yeah, but Dr. Mundo doesn't start with Sh-.

But, yeah, worthwhile bans are strong ganking junglers (Rammus, Lee Sin, Shaco), Assassins/strong counterpicks (Kassadin, Shaco), and strong laners (Morgana, Shen, Kennen, Lee Sin, Kennen). Really just all of the solo-queue carries.

[Winterwind]

Does Malphite work in the current metagame at all? I'm asking because I have a friend who's just getting into LoL, and who happens to enjoy Malphite a lot, but I'm having a bit trouble figuring out what exactly to do with a Malphite on the team. I'd guess one would send him top lane, but I don't quite see Malphite (especially played by a new player) winning against most common toplaners. I guess support kinda sorta works, too, but again, I suspect a bot lane featuring a regular support would win against most Malphite-support bot lanes. So what do?

[Neoseanster]

Malphite's an acceptable top, a pretty good jungle, and also makes a decent counterpick for some mid lanes. His recharging shield means he can trade with his Seismic Shard rather favorably.

[Talesin]

Does Malphite work in the current metagame at all? I'm asking because I have a friend who's just getting into LoL, and who happens to enjoy Malphite a lot, but I'm having a bit trouble figuring out what exactly to do with a Malphite on the team. I'd guess one would send him top lane, but I don't quite see Malphite (especially played by a new player) winning against most common toplaners. I guess support kinda sorta works, too, but again, I suspect a bot lane featuring a regular support would win against most Malphite-support bot lanes. So what do?

Jungle! He's an alright jungler and is strong against teams that have a lot of auto attackers. For example a Trynda top or jungle, in addition to the regular AD carry boy, can lose a huge chunk of dps if hit by malph's E while he's got frozen heart or on-use Randuin's.

He's not awful top but he will struggle against many top laners. But if you learn to use his passive shield well, whichis now much easier as its got a little cooldown thingy on the HUD, then you can trade well.

Edit: Shen'd

[ex cathedra]

Malphite is a decent (albeit not quite competitive) jungler and potentially a strong top lane counterpick. Lane against AD, build Tabi, Frozen Heart, and maybe some Doran's Rings.

[Dogmantra]

Pal of mine likes to play Malphite mid, stack a few Doran's Rings into Catalyst and basically deny all day. It works for him, but I've not seen it often and not against particularly skilled players.

[toasty]

Pal of mine likes to play Malphite mid, stack a few Doran's Rings into Catalyst and basically deny all day. It works for him, but I've not seen it often and not against particularly skilled players.

Hotshot has done this solo top before. Not sure how effective it is but he goes something like triple-dorans Abyssal and it seemed to work that game.

I think you should play Malphite as a bruiser/tank. Something like Wits End/Frozen Heart/Aegis/Shurelias.

Then again, that's pretty much my build on ALL bruiser/tanks, so, you have been warned. :smalltongue:

[fred dref]

Armor Yellows, max out Burning Agony and you're about done. I like 9/21/0 on him with Agony -> Cleaver -> Agony, and Spellvamp Quints are pretty good on him since actually building Spellvamp isn't gonna happen.

Which is odd, because I run attack speed on Mundo and max Masochism over Burning Agony. Having 170AD at like level 5 is really good if one happens to run into the enemy jungler whilst taking their stuff.

[Silverraptor]

Does Malphite work in the current metagame at all? I'm asking because I have a friend who's just getting into LoL, and who happens to enjoy Malphite a lot, but I'm having a bit trouble figuring out what exactly to do with a Malphite on the team. I'd guess one would send him top lane, but I don't quite see Malphite (especially played by a new player) winning against most common toplaners. I guess support kinda sorta works, too, but again, I suspect a bot lane featuring a regular support would win against most Malphite-support bot lanes. So what do?

Djinn! Immediately go to Djinn. He is Malphite! HEAR HIM ROAR!!!

(...or, you know, not, because he is a rock. In the jungle.)

[Eldariel]

AD Kayle too stronk. Free Tiamat (& AD Steroid), Percentile ArPen/MPen + Invulnerability on carry <3

[fred dref]

AD Kayle too stronk. Free Tiamat (& AD Steroid), Percentile ArPen/MPen + Invulnerability on carry <3

Because I am pedantic, it does crit and doesn't improve lifesteal, it's not an AD steroid. Just a damage steroid.

Also, I hate having to build CDR to actually be ranged, almost as much as I hate having low range even when ranged. I've been considering inflicting top lane Kayle on someone as an experiment, though.

[Eldariel]

Because I am pedantic, it does crit and doesn't improve lifesteal, it's not an AD steroid. Just a damage steroid.

Also, I hate having to build CDR to actually be ranged, almost as much as I hate having low range even when ranged. I've been considering inflicting top lane Kayle on someone as an experiment, though.

Well, that's just the same thing Kog'Maw deals with pretty much. You don't itemize it obviously; unless you go late Zeke's/Blue/Blue Pot or something I generally just suck it up and accept that I'm gonna be able to attack for only 10 seconds at a time. 10 secs is generally plenty anyways and the cooldown after that is only a handful of seconds.

And yeah, toplane Kayle works great as a bruiser too. Kayle's kit is just insane on a damage dealer.

[Zen Master]

Also, Kayle isn't just ranged for 10 seconds - she's aoe too. While it may not shatter worlds, it's also not to be ignored.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Recent jungle advice I'd recommend looking here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575

Mundo

Runes
Attack Speed Marks
Armor Yellows
Choice Glyphs
Spellvamp Quints

9/21/0 (Bladed Armor and Indomitable required)

WQW

Boots +3 potions.

Take a Wraiths -> Red route. I would recommend either ganking a lane or invading enemy jungle rather than a full clear with mundo. Usually invade.

I recommend Exhaust Smite as summoners.


Shyvana

Runes
Offensive Choice Marks
Armor Seals
Choice Glyphs
Offensive Choice Quints or Lifesteal Quints

21/9/0

WQW

Cloth +5 or Boots +3 (Lifesteal Quints).

Use a Wraiths -> Red Route. I recommend invading after you have red. Make it a goal to take as much of the enemy jungle as you safely can.

I recommend Exhaust Smite for summoners.


Malphite
Runes
8 Attack speed Marks and 1 ArPen Mark
Armor Seals
Attack Speed Glyphs
ArPen Quints

9/21/0

EWE

Regrowth +1 start.

Standard Wolves -> Blue route.



(Shyvana I just updated)

Also, as always if you want to know if everything is current, or you want a jungler added to the post you can post in thread or even better you could PM me. (I try and keep it current, and do make edits to it still)

[ex cathedra]

Also, I hate having to build CDR to actually be ranged, almost as much as I hate having low range even when ranged. I've been considering inflicting top lane Kayle on someone as an experiment, though.

Oh, come on!

Kayle's kit is just stupid. Biggest design letdown in League's history. Evelynn's balance problems were handled more elegantly than Kayle's.

I'm not commenting on whether Kayle's kit is functional or not, I'm just saying that it is overwhelmingly poor design on the part of the team who created her and the teams who reworked her.

Range steroids: not necessarily bad design. Range steroids that turn a melee champion into a ranged champion, however, are a bit much, especially when they have down-times and are balanced around the existence of CDR. Melee champions and ranged champions almost uniformly represent different roles and play accordingly. It also creates an uncomfortable dissonance where the champion either feels like a ranged champion that is occasionally punished by becoming melee or they feel like a melee champion whose gimmick is a short-term range increase.

Kayle's heal: An expensive, poorly scaling support ability.

Kayle's Q: A ranged debuff that doubles as a damage steroid.

One of those abilities is entirely out of place. Which one is it? I have no idea! It's completely subjective. Kayle has two support abilities (one of which is OP on someone who's a carry) and two carry/bruiser abilities (one of which is gimmicky and worthless on a support). Completely dichotomous design. She's like Sion with well-hidden breasts.

[fred dref]

Recent jungle advice I'd recommend looking here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575

Mundo

Runes
Attack Speed Marks
Armor Yellows
Choice Glyphs
Spellvamp Quints

9/21/0 (Bladed Armor and Indomitable required)

WQW

Boots +3 potions.

Take a Wraiths -> Red route. I would recommend either ganking a lane or invading enemy jungle rather than a full clear with mundo. Usually invade.

I recommend Exhaust Smite as summoners.



For those like myself without Spell vamp quints, an E focused jungle starting with a Vamp Scepter clears slower, but can do it perfectly fine. Not as strong, obviously, but doesn't require a set of fairly niche quints.

[Lix Lorn]

Anivia I think is sleeper sleeper op, especially if people are getting hit by her Q at early levels (if you get hit by that, you're dead).

Karma is really strong in lane and if you don't know how to deal with her, she could seem pretty op.
I love maining Anivia.
You dodge my Q or your health bar is gone.


She's like Sion with well-hidden breasts.
This sentence is best sentence.

[Eldariel]

One of those abilities is entirely out of place. Which one is it? I have no idea! It's completely subjective. Kayle has two support abilities (one of which is OP on someone who's a carry) and two carry/bruiser abilities (one of which is gimmicky and worthless on a support). Completely dichotomous design. She's like Sion with well-hidden breasts.

The difference is though that there's no reason a carry/bruiser couldn't have a speedbuff heal or invulnerability. As such, I don't see the problem. She's just a different carry. Support she is not; her heal is like Sona's in that it's mostly there for the side effect of speedbuff, and to provide increased regeneration on lane.

Sion can't utilize both parts of his kit efficiently no matter how you build him. Or well, it's obvious that he's designed to be an AD champ with a stun as a gapcloser and a shield to keep him alive but since he sucks at that role and he's oldschool (ergo he has top notch AP ratios by default; that's why Gragas is the Gragas we know too), people started playing him AP and Riot went Rammus.

[ex cathedra]

But an ability that's just a movespeed boost is pretty superfluous and strikes me as bad design, especially considering how much mana it costs. Similarly, the fact that you can donate her ult is pretty much just bonkers. Much to my chagrin, the amount of utility her ult grants means that Kayle is at least potentially viable at all times simply off of the strength of that one skill. She has clear support leanings (including the support tag in-client) and her intention is clearly that of some weird off-support hybrid (think of a useless version of Taric) and it just comes off as wonky and disappointing. She's even getting remade again. Such a waste of design time. Just axe her and be done with it.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

The difference is though that there's no reason a carry/bruiser couldn't have a speedbuff heal or invulnerability. As such, I don't see the problem. She's just a different carry. Support she is not; her heal is like Sona's in that it's mostly there for the side effect of speedbuff, and to provide increased regeneration on lane.


If Kayle were actually meant to be carry/bruiser her ult would be self only. And called Undying Rage or something. Her W is a terribad ability any way you look at it. It's a bad heal, and it's an awful speedbuff too and just an all-round waste of mana for the most part.

Kayle works because the combination of armour shredding and a damage multiplier is absurdly strong and makes up for a host of other sins. Sion with boobies indeed.

[Neoseanster]

Kayle's level 5 Divine Blessing: 23% move speed buff for 2.5 seconds.

Lulu's level 1 Whimsy: 35% move speed buff for 5 seconds.

Lulululululululululululululu~

Seriously, I don't think there's anything Kayle really does significantly better than she does, either as a support or a DPS. Well, besides trollish invulnerability to completely negate burst, but that's a given, and I don't think it makes up for how impractical the rest of her kit is.

[Eldariel]

If Kayle were actually meant to be carry/bruiser her ult would be self only. And called Undying Rage or something. Her W is a terribad ability any way you look at it. It's a bad heal, and it's an awful speedbuff too and just an all-round waste of mana for the most part.

Kayle works because the combination of armour shredding and a damage multiplier is absurdly strong and makes up for a host of other sins. Sion with boobies indeed.

It actually used to be self-only in the first place. But who cares what she's meant to be? Hell, who cares about design technicalities in the first place? Only thing that matters to me is what works.

EDIT: Basically, I'm saying "She's fun to play, she's a solid champ power-wise so she's a good champ."

[ex cathedra]

Evelynn was fun to play and could do well, clearly her design wasn't flawed in any way.

Yorick's strong so clearly his design is similarly flawless. :smalltongue:
I don't actually have anything against Yorick other than his BASIC DYNAMICS. Win lane, turn into ult-bot once laning ends. Contribute nothing else. I still kind of like playing him, though. A lot of people consider him toxic to the game. He's up for a minor rework, too, which is interesting because he doesn't have a lot in common with most of the champions who got reworked.

Design matters to me. Good design makes for good champions. If every champion was Lee Sin, Ahri, or Lulu this game would be much more enjoyable, to be perfectly honest.

[lord_khaine]

EDIT: Basically, I'm saying "She's fun to play, she's a solid champ power-wise so she's a good champ."

I totaly agree with this, when i picked her up i found her to be both interesting and deceptively powerfull, though of course not to the same degree as Alistar who i am currently maining :P

[Nadevoc]

Kayle does feel poorly designed to me. Honestly, if her heal and ultimate only targeted her, she'd be a lot more cohesive and could be buffed. But of course that's not going to happen because taking away the ability to target others would enrage people. As is, though, she has two support abilities (W/R) and two AD carry abilities (Q*/E).

She's also generally had very poorly designed passives. Her first passive (temporary buff when nearby ally died) made you actually want your teammates to die, leading to things like, "Sure, I COULD save you with my two support abilities, but I'm gonna let you die so I get SWEET DAMAGES! =D =D". Then she got the double-dipping +killing power passive which was extremely powerful, but really not a great design and led to a weird support-into-hypercarry play. She's finally got a decent passive, though, if they can just make the rest of her kit more cohesive.


*Could also fit an AP carry, but that's even more mish-mashy

[Lix Lorn]

Kayle is fun to play, but I kinda agree that she lacks cohesion.

[Eldariel]

Evelynn was fun to play and could do well, clearly her design wasn't flawed in any way.

I don't think Evelynn is very fun overall though.


Yorick's strong so clearly his design is similarly flawless. :smalltongue:
I don't actually have anything against Yorick other than his BASIC DYNAMICS. Win lane, turn into ult-bot once laning ends. Contribute nothing else. I still kind of like playing him, though. A lot of people consider him toxic to the game. He's up for a minor rework, too, which is interesting because he doesn't have a lot in common with most of the champions who got reworked.

IMHO Yorick is an enjoyable champion with unique dynamics.


Design matters to me. Good design makes for good champions. If every champion was Lee Sin, Ahri, or Lulu this game would be much more enjoyable, to be perfectly honest.

Perhaps. But does bad design necessarily make bad champions?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I like the concept of Eve, but the stealth mechanic makes her so tricky to balance, so she winds up with no sustain, poor laning, poor jungling, and no support abilities, making it tricky to do anything with her these days.

We tried sometime back in the last thread to come up with a good way to use her, but the only suggestion was roaming, and since the XP changes, that's not so good anymore.

[Eldariel]

I like the concept of Eve, but the stealth mechanic makes her so tricky to balance, so she winds up with no sustain, poor laning, poor jungling, and no support abilities, making it tricky to do anything with her these days.

We tried sometime back in the last thread to come up with a good way to use her, but the only suggestion was roaming, and since the XP changes, that's not so good anymore.

I like the concept of "stealthy melee assassin" but I find Shaco does it about 100000 times better.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I like the concept of "stealthy melee assassin" but I find Shaco does it about 100000 times better.

I agree, which is why he always gets banned. I hate clown, because no matter how carefully you yourself play, he will get fed off of some other lane. His ganks are just too damn good, and it's never an option to stay and fight.

[Eurus]

Out of curiosity, what would y'all say is a reasonable goal time for a hypothetical jungler to hit level 6 by? Let's assume we're talking about a jungler with relatively poor pre-6 ganks, so mostly just trying to farm to 6 as fast as possible. I'm just trying to come up with a general rule to go by, to measure myself when experimenting with weird jungle champions. :smallbiggrin:

[Nadevoc]

So as far as junglers go, who should I know? Nocturne has been sort of my go-to jungler, though I don't see him much and feel like he's not considered one of the top junglers. I can also do WW, but he's sort of slow and probably better top. I played Skarner jungle for awhile, but it wasn't really clicking with me.

I feel like I should learn either Lee Sin or Udyr? Should probably pick Maokai back up, too. I remember him being pretty sweet in the jungle. Stonewall apparently thinks LeBlanc is a crazy good jungler, so I might have to try that just for fun.

[Mutant Bunny]

I agree, which is why he always gets banned. I hate clown, because no matter how carefully you yourself play, he will get fed off of some other lane. His ganks are just too damn good, and it's never an option to stay and fight.

I was mid urgot once: with tanky runes and my shield, I got away from a shaco gank that started with me pushed all the way to the enemy turret. I got away with enough health to stay in lane comfortably. I was surprised and amused at how much durability I somehow had.

[XiaoTie]

Support Ashe: "doable", "trololol-but-works" or "WTF are you talking about"? Find out tonight as the playgrounders enlighten us.

[ex cathedra]

Perhaps. But does bad design necessarily make bad champions?

I think so. Bad champions can be strong, too. Look at the most recent pre-rework Kayle. Most of the same design flaws highlighted by a double conversion passive that gave her ridiculous scaling.

I thought that Eve was really fun, for the record. Her hit-and-run roaming playstyle appealed to me and her ultimate mechanics felt like they really rewarded you for doing well.

Support Ashe: six flavors of legit.

Junglers:
Learn Maokai, Dr. Mundo, Lee Sin.

Benchmark level 6 in jungle between 6:30 and 7:00, iirc.

[Eldariel]

So as far as junglers go, who should I know? Nocturne has been sort of my go-to jungler, though I don't see him much and feel like he's not considered one of the top junglers. I can also do WW, but he's sort of slow and probably better top. I played Skarner jungle for awhile, but it wasn't really clicking with me.

I feel like I should learn either Lee Sin or Udyr? Should probably pick Maokai back up, too. I remember him being pretty sweet in the jungle. Stonewall apparently thinks LeBlanc is a crazy good jungler, so I might have to try that just for fun.

Lee Sin, Udyr, Shyvana, Riven, Mundo are all very, very good junglers excelling at given areas of jungling. I prefer Udyr the least out of that bunch for the simple reason that he's a mana champ while the rest have no qualms about donating blues other than XP loss.

Shaco, Meowkai, Alistar and Rammus are probably the top early ganking junglers currently (Lee Sin, Riven, Nautilus and Jarvan probably deserve a mention too) while Mundo, Udyr & Shyvana are probably the most efficient clearing junglers (though Mummy, Skarner & Noc are also pretty high up there...hell, basically all of the listed champs have at least reasonably fast clears). Then you have the Level 6 Stuff club with Warwick, Skarner & Shen who pretty much do nothing until level 6 and suddenly they start wrecking faces everywhere.

[MeatShield#236]

Support Ashe: "doable", "trololol-but-works" or "WTF are you talking about"? Find out tonight as the playgrounders enlighten us.

I've seen support Ashe a couple times, always on the opposing team. It's certainly doable, especially if you're going for a kill lane, but if she doesn't get a few kills in for her carry then she starts becoming a liability real fast. That being said, it's very easy to get kills once she gets her ult; Crystal Arrow initiations are an almost guaranteed kill.

[TechnOkami]

Meowkai

I imagined Maokai with a kitty hat, throwing explosive kittens at his enemies, speaking in "nyan".

[Mtg_player_zach]

So as far as junglers go, who should I know? Nocturne has been sort of my go-to jungler, though I don't see him much and feel like he's not considered one of the top junglers. I can also do WW, but he's sort of slow and probably better top. I played Skarner jungle for awhile, but it wasn't really clicking with me.

I feel like I should learn either Lee Sin or Udyr? Should probably pick Maokai back up, too. I remember him being pretty sweet in the jungle. Stonewall apparently thinks LeBlanc is a crazy good jungler, so I might have to try that just for fun.

Ideally knowing a lot of them. But as for what's the best right now? There are a lot of good junglers. so it depends on what you want to do. Tell me what you want to do and I can better tell you. Do you want to carry from the jungle, counterjungle, be initiation, bruiser, CC heavy, ganking jungle, etc?

[Nadevoc]

Ideally knowing a lot of them. But as for what's the best right now? There are a lot of good junglers. so it depends on what you want to do. Tell me what you want to do and I can better tell you. Do you want to carry from the jungle, counterjungle, be initiation, bruiser, CC heavy, ganking jungle, etc?

Probably value ganking the highest. Initiation would be great, too; it's become a bit too common for me to look at our team 20 minutes in and say, "Man, we would DESTROY them in a team fight, but... we have no way to initiate."

Somewhat unrelated, a good countergank is the sweetest thing in the world. Last game as Nocturne, Fiora ulted my half-health mid Brand under tower as I was doing wraiths. I flash over the wall and manage to get fear off with Brand still at ~100 health, get a kill as Brand runs, and feel like a hero.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Probably value ganking the highest. Initiation would be great, too; it's become a bit too common for me to look at our team 20 minutes in and say, "Man, we would DESTROY them in a team fight, but... we have no way to initiate."

Somewhat unrelated, a good countergank is the sweetest thing in the world. Last game as Nocturne, Fiora ulted my half-health mid Brand under tower as I was doing wraiths. I flash over the wall and manage to get fear off with Brand still at ~100 health, get a kill as Brand runs, and feel like a hero.

I would highly recommend Alistair, Maokai, Sejuani, Jarvan, Nautilus as ganking initiation capable junglers, I would also recommend Amumu, Warwick, Nocturne, Skarner, Rammus, Malphite, Trundle or Lee Sin, all who are also good but slightly worse at ganking and/or initiating/some need 6 to gank/etc.

My guide in the first post covers the initial jungle (not items or post laning gameplay) of all of the junglers I just listed.

Also the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575

[fred dref]

Stonewall apparently thinks LeBlanc is a crazy good jungler, so I might have to try that just for fun.

Killed all 5 jungle camps by 2:22 on the game clock, then immediately took Dragon.

[endoperez]

Killed all 5 jungle camps by 2:22 on the game clock, then immediately took Dragon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYdjGKzoEM8

Yeah. The trick is starting with Dagger, upgrading it immediately to Berzerker's Greaves, and then building Infinity Edge and a few Phantom Dancers before the jungle camps spawn.

[Terribad]

So ... HORSE LADY


http://latimesherocomplex.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/riotgames3.jpg

[Adumbration]

Made it to platinum. ^_^
http://i.imgur.com/d3pEB.jpg

[Bunny of Faith]

Made it to platinum. ^_^
http://i.imgur.com/d3pEB.jpg

Playing Janna, too. Ele must be so proud. :smalltongue: Congrats though!

[Talesin]

Who are peoples favourite characters? Specifically:

To play for fun?
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
For the looks/feel of the character?
Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?

I'd say for fun it would be Janna as I like how much of the game I can influence by keeping my team alive with clutch shields and well timed Qs.

In ranked I prefer Lee Sin. He's a powerful character but landing his skill shots/ults provide a challenge that pushes me as a player

For looks/feel I really like Olaf. When I play him I feel quite unstoppable with his true damage plus i've always quite liked Viking themed characters.

For the defining ablility/chracteristic its probably Wukong for his ult as it can totally change the tide of a fight if you use it well.

[Dogmantra]

To play for fun?
Teemo
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
Teemo
For the looks/feel of the character?
Teemo
Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
Teemo


Nah for reals:
To play for fun?
Teemo is actually one of my favourites here, or Ezreal. They both have this wonderful kitey style and can carry rather hard. Plus the fact they're two of my best characters helps since I don't often have a hard time with 'em.
RUNNERS UP: Viktor, Mordekaiser and Twisted Fate. Three wonderful mages who all play differently and I really enjoy.

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
Janna on Rift, Ezreal or Corki on Treeline for actual ranked. The former because like you said you have so much control over the battlefield and I find having a carry who isn't good at positioning isn't an instaloss when you're playing Janna, since you can reposition the fight so they DO have good positioning. Ez/Corki in Treeline are basically amazing and I really enjoy playing carries on Treeline since people just don't see them at my ELO and don't know what to do about them. That and our little ranked team of Ez/Corki + Morgana/Galio + Warwick has done rather well for itself.

For the looks/feel of the character?
Teemo and Ezreal again probably. Or maybe Vlad. Teemo has this excellent FPS feel to him, it feels a bit like I'm playing Medic again (Battle Medic, obvs), 'specially when you chase down some nasty Jarvan who runs up at you and thinks he can be mean. Ezreal and Vlad 'cause they both have this fantastic flow to them, when you're on a roll, 'specially as Ezreal you end up getting into a sort of rhythm and it's great. Teemo and Ez both also look cute (Teemo in the dawww way, Ezreal in the dawww but also I am slightly attracted to you). Especially ALL THE TEEMO SKINS C:<

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
I like Teemo's free map awareness, Rumble's amazing melee presence and I guess Twisted Fate's ultimate. I really like skills that let you abuse the map.

[Nadevoc]

Thanks, Zach. I think I'll brush up on Maokai and sere about learning Trundle and Alistar, then go from there. Tonight shall be dedicated to failing in the jungle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYdjGKzoEM8

Yeah. The trick is starting with Dagger, upgrading it immediately to Berzerker's Greaves, and then building Infinity Edge and a few Phantom Dancers before the jungle camps spawn.

Ah. Apparently so. Does it show that I hadn't bothered looking at how she jungles yet? >.>

EDIT FOR FAVORITE CHARACTERS:

Fun: Fluctuates constantly. There's a reason I play such a wide variety of champions. Fizz and Lulu are near the top, though.

Competitive: Sona. I generally identify as a support player, and she's my best. Her strong poke and decent sustain are amazing in lane, and her ult is awesome.

Look/feel: Nocturne, I suppose

Defining feature: I'll go with Pantheon's mandrop

[Fredaintdead]

Who are peoples favourite characters? Specifically:

To play for fun?
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
For the looks/feel of the character?
Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?

Olaf/Mundo/Yorick
Olaf
Mundo
Olaf/Mundo


:smallbiggrin:

The best part is that I'm not even joking.

For fun: I love tankydps. Almost every time I play tankydps I have tons of fun.
For competitiveness: Since I enjoy playing TankyDPS, I end up getting a lot of practice with TankyDPS champs, with Olaf possibly being the champ I know better than I know any other champion.
For looks/feel of the character: There is something about Mundo that's just awesome. He's an unkillable inhuman deathmachine who slaughters with childlike glee... and yet I can't help but find him almost adorable when I play him. Every single time I play Mundo I found myself just going "Yaaaaaaay! Let's kill them all! Wheeeeeeeee!". :smallbiggrin:
Because of one characteristic: Olaf strikes with such force that lightning falls from the sky, smashing through armour and magical shields alike as if they were better. This is awesome.

[Adumbration]

To play for fun?
- Amumu, Kayle, Mordekaiser, Lulu, Ashe, Alistar, Heimerdinger, Gangplank, Viktor, Morgana
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
- Janna, Taric, Amumu, Kayle, Ashe, Shaco, Soraka, Mordekaiser, Yorick, Rammus, Morgana
For the looks/feel of the character?
- Kayle, Mundo[B]

[Winthur]

So as far as junglers go, who should I know? Nocturne has been sort of my go-to jungler, though I don't see him much and feel like he's not considered one of the top junglers. (...)

I feel like I should learn either Lee Sin or Udyr? Should probably pick Maokai back up, too. I remember him being pretty sweet in the jungle. Stonewall apparently thinks LeBlanc is a crazy good jungler, so I might have to try that just for fun.

Nocturne sees some resurgence competitively lately.
His weakness is that on his own he has a fairly weak early game - relatively to other strong junglers. The ones you mentioned - Lee Sin, Udyr (and also Shaco if he isn't banned) - will have the upper hand over him (they are just more mobile or can just duel him to death). His early ganks are doable (which gives him options in case he can't just farm his jungle) although not the preferred way of playing him (Lee Sin, Maokai or Alistar say hello).

With that in mind, Nocturne is still a very strong champion in the jungle (and even in top lane actually if you can bother to learn it). He farms fast once he got Wriggles and has good sustain overall. He has a few good options early game despite his weaknesses.

The real reason he's picked however is his ultimate. With it he can gank once every cooldown and come back to jungle while bypassing wards. That's insanely strong given how every proper player should understand the importance of warding their side of the river. Nocturne forces people to keep track of him. That, and he scales really well with kills. He is also, actually, one of the best late-game junglers (large dps, a great skillset for diving, really scary when fed, has a spell shield) without sacrificing a lot of utility for it (unlike, say, Olaf, who is a monster late-game, but is much harder to use over the course of the game)

With all that he remains a strong tanky DPS that can serve as an assassin or even the team's initiator. Definitely a good jungler and very flexible. Just requires knowledge of the tough matchups.

Lee Sin is a pubstomper champion that ganks from very early levels and continues to be a very strong presence because of his AD caster skills. Even after multiple nerfs he is still extremely strong. He's fairly easy to stomp games with because you actually have a lot of options, most of them revolving around aggressive use of his skillset (dueling junglers and ganking lanes), but you also can farm pretty well at least early on. Once you get fed, you snowball hard.

Udyr is from the "Zerg" brand of junglers that pretty much see every camp on the map as their own, consume it and assimilate to the Swarm (alongside Mundo, Shyvana, and Master Yi). Udyr, in particular, has to capitalize on his early game. His strength comes from controlling the map, pressuring the enemy jungler, and gaining more farm than him. This propels him to a stronger mid-late game because he will have more items and also deny the enemy his own gold. He also actually does okay even on low-gold but he really shines if he can gain levels on the enemy jungler. Most popular jungle Udyr is the Phoenix variation because you can go straight tank (usual core set is Wit's End with HoG and tanky items according to opposition); Tiger is more of a niche variation for early ganks and early dragons (or for top lane, where he can get better farm; Tiger generally invests more into damage and this can cause problems for jungle Tigers). His biggest problem is people with slows and knockbacks, which is why you need to pack Flash; Bear Stance is hardly a hard initiate against people that kite you.

[Moonshadow]

topic 32? I didn't realise you guys went through 10 topics in a day o_O

EDIT: Wait no. then i'm confused because the last topic title doesn't make sense because blackjack is 21.

w/e, it's 2am and i'm easily confused @_@

[Winthur]

topic 32? I didn't realise you guys went through 10 topics in a day o_O

League of Legends XXXVII: 37! My girlfriend made 37 threads!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Who are peoples favourite characters? Specifically:

To play for fun?
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
For the looks/feel of the character?
Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?


To play for fun

I have a few here, because I own/play everyone. I enjoy Shyvana, Tristana, Cho'Gath, Orianna, Garen, Rumble and Lux...but that's just off the top of my head. Maokai, Udyr, Teemo, Shaco and Graves probably earn a mention. EDIT: AND MALPHITE. HOW COULD I FORGET MY FAVORITE ROCK?


To play in ranked/competitive
Graves, Tristana, Shyvana, Morgana, Maokai, Cassiopeia, Nasus. Probably roughtly in order of how guaranteed I am to be scary.

For looks/feel
I love Orianna. Her looks are great, her kit is fun and feels fun, and her auto-attack is unusually crisp and really fitting to her character. <3 Orianna.

Malphite is also great for this...his personality, ponderous inevitability, and his "give-no-****s" playstyle of just sort of doing his thing regardless of what anyone on the enemy team is trying to make him do. Udyr has this as well, but slightly less so.

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic
Orianna for her auto-attack, which I really love. Skarner for his Ultimate (and my associated Zoidberg noises).

[Lix Lorn]

Who are peoples favourite characters? Specifically:

To play for fun?
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
For the looks/feel of the character?
Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
For fun, is a tie between Anivia and Lulu. AS Lulu is just /so/ much fun to watch people melt to nothing, and solo dragon the moment you get razors... plus people always think they can 1v1 you. They can't.
For competitive, Anivia wins. She's my main and my best and I love how she's like 'dodge my Q or DIE.'
And then she hits 6 and becomes 'Lol die anyway'
For the feel... I love Sona. I should Sona some more.
For just one thing? Talon. BURST. I love how someone's happily farming, and suddenly E W Q R R aa dead, in about a second.


League of Legends XXXVII: 37! My girlfriend made 37 threads!
...
XL: Chased Singed Got Forty Kills. And That's Terrible.

[Zen Master]

Stuff about Nocturne

I played against a Nocturne once, who impressed me tremendously because he pretty much had no damage items - yet still tore our team apart.

Does that make sense to anyone? As far as I can tell, he doesn't have any scaling for damage - except the obvious (damage items).

[PEACH]

To play for fun?

Skarner, Nasus, Malz, Graves (though I'm pretty meh with him), Taric/Janna. That's one for each role. Top two are probably Skarner and Nasus. Nasus because Wither is just so sexy, SS farm competitions are fun, and being able to smash towers and squishies mid-late game is nice. Skarner because... he's Skarner! There's nothing not to love!


To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?

Skarner. Urgot on Dominion, because doing anything but Urgot and occasionally Yorick bot leads to me getting crushed.


For the looks/feel of the character?

Skarner. He's pretty awesome looking (though I'd kill for an actually great skin, like a bone Skarner or something), and he feels like a very mobile high damage highly sticky tanky DPS with great scaling on everything who gets to use abilities constantly. Because he is!


Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?

Skarner. Dat ult. And Dat flash+ult initiation. Nothing says "let's teamfight" like killing Cass from 600 range or so.

[Chumbaniya]

To play for fun?

Alistar, no question. I like making the big plays, simple as that :smallbiggrin:

I recently bought Kennen and he's great fun, especially in blind pick matches where nobody but me bothers to farm and I run around like a maniac killing people.

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?

Warwick. Most of my ranked games so far have been on TT as I have 2 friends I usually do ranked with, and WW is incredibly good at shutting down enemy bruisers. He isn't the most exciting champion but he's an extremely hard to shift laner.

For the looks/feel of the character?

Kog'Maw. I love his overall look, his dance, and his skins (the butterfly is good and the firework skin is my favourite skin in the whole game - don't own it though). I also think it's cool to melt enemies by vomiting all over them!

Obviously Teemo too. Love that lil' guy. Astronaut skin is the 2nd best in the game.

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?

Hard to argue with Veigar's combo. I seem to lose a lot of games with him but still farm up 800+ AP and go round gibbing people and running away while my team screw up everything all day long! I don't play many games with Veigar any more though, as he's just utterly lacking in versatility and completely dependent on your team being able to follow up on your taking out an enemy.

For a single ability, I'd go for Kog's R, because I don't play at a high level and I'm pretty decent with skillshots, so people get sniped all day long when I play as AP. Double kills on enemies sat under their towers? Yes please!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I played against a Nocturne once, who impressed me tremendously because he pretty much had no damage items - yet still tore our team apart.

Does that make sense to anyone? As far as I can tell, he doesn't have any scaling for damage - except the obvious (damage items).

His Q offers a damage boost while he's standing on the effect (scaling from 15 to 55).

[Chumbaniya]

His Q offers a damage boost while he's standing on the effect (scaling from 15 to 55).

Plus free attack speed on his W, and to a lesser extent the damage multiplier on his passive. That's one of the nice things about Nocturne - he feels like a really solid damage dealer but he doesn't need items to fill that role.

[fred dref]

AS Lulu is just /so/ much fun to watch people melt to nothing, and solo dragon the moment you get razors... plus people always think they can 1v1 you. They can't.


It's funny because just last night I was up against both a Nocturne and a Lulu on the same team. They tried to 2v1 me about 25 minutes in. They couldn't.


I was Nasus.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...I don't normally like Cntrl+Alt+Del as a comic, but this one is great, and League-related.

COMIC (http://v.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20120328-d2f00.png)

[MonarchAnarch]

My friends at work have indirectly convinced me to try LoL. Will be trying to night, they suggested Nasus as the best for me to learn on that is free atm.

Wish me luck.

[PEACH]

Nasus is a weird champ to learn to start playing with because he kind of requires you to immediately learn not only last hitting, but last hitting with a specific skill, and you have to immediately learn the "attack, then use an AA skill to attack again immediately" trick that not every champ uses. He's a pretty easy champ besides that, but it's a bit different than most champs.

[endoperez]

My friends at work have indirectly convinced me to try LoL. Will be trying to night, they suggested Nasus as the best for me to learn on that is free atm.

Wish me luck.

Will you be trying on your own, or with someone guiding you? In either case, you should start with the tutorial, and then play against bots instead of humans, at least for one or two games. Understanding some of the basics before that would help too. There's probably a good video for that somewhere, but I don't know where, and the first post doesn't have one either.

Does anyone here know of a good introductory tutorial or guide for LoL? Video format would likely work best. It seems like it'd be very nice to have it in the first post.

[Lix Lorn]

Nasus is an exception. xD Trying to 1v1 Nasus as an AS charrie is just silly.

[fred dref]

Nasus is an exception. xD Trying to 1v1 Nasus as an AS charrie is just silly.

Trying to 1v1 Nasus as anyone who isn't Ryze, Karthus or Cass is probably going to end poorly, assuming you're 25-30 minutes in and Nasus has not been shut down.

Regardless, I can't imagine the usual roster of tanky DPS duelists (Jax, Warwick, Olaf, etc.) would have much trouble with Lulu. She could probably beat most AD carries in the midgame, I guess.

[LordShotGun]

...
XL: Chased Singed Got Forty Kills. And That's Terrible.

OK, that made me laugh. That lex luthor comic always gets me going.

[Eldariel]

Trying to 1v1 Nasus as anyone who isn't Ryze, Karthus or Cass is probably going to end poorly, assuming you're 25-30 minutes in and Nasus has not been shut down.

Anivia, sir?

[Lix Lorn]

OK, that made me laugh. That lex luthor comic always gets me going.
I picked Singed because he is bald.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I picked Singed because he is bald.

But if anyone is doing terrible things, wouldn't it be Veigar?

Especially because he's a Yordle. He'd totally steal 40 shrooms, or 40 cupcakes, or any number of other things.

[Qaera]

But if anyone is doing terrible things, wouldn't it be Veigar?

Especially because he's a Yordle. He'd totally steal 40 shrooms, or 40 cupcakes, or any number of other things.

And that's terrible.

~ ♅

[MonarchAnarch]

Will you be trying on your own, or with someone guiding you? In either case, you should start with the tutorial, and then play against bots instead of humans, at least for one or two games. Understanding some of the basics before that would help too. There's probably a good video for that somewhere, but I don't know where, and the first post doesn't have one either.

Does anyone here know of a good introductory tutorial or guide for LoL? Video format would likely work best. It seems like it'd be very nice to have it in the first post.

My co-workers play alot, but I'll be going it alone while I learn. Will start with bots of course, just to get my feet under me. I recognize that nasus is a support/utility toon, with a slow crawl to hitter at the end.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

My co-workers play alot, but I'll be going it alone while I learn. Will start with bots of course, just to get my feet under me. I recognize that nasus is a support/utility toon, with a slow crawl to hitter at the end.

That's actually a bit untrue. Nasus is a bruiser through and through, but just doesn't come into his own until later, when his Q is nicely stacked with damage (+3 permanent extra damage per kill gained using his Q). He doesn't really have a lot of support or utility, although he has a rather nice slow/attack speed reducing ability.

Instead of being a support/utility, he likes to play passively and sit by himself in a lane farming up damage, and then he'll swoop into team fights with some really brutal damage.

[fred dref]

That moment when teamfights have been brutal 3 for 3 affairs all game, then Nasus decides to start teamfighting. :smallcool:

[PEACH]

Trying to 1v1 Nasus as anyone who isn't Ryze, Karthus or Cass is probably going to end poorly, assuming you're 25-30 minutes in and Nasus has not been shut down.

Regardless, I can't imagine the usual roster of tanky DPS duelists (Jax, Warwick, Olaf, etc.) would have much trouble with Lulu. She could probably beat most AD carries in the midgame, I guess.

While Nasus does do really well in 1v1s, even fairly farmed he can be beaten by AD carries that can kite (see: Anybody with a dash+a mallet and possibly mercs), and some people can legitimately threaten him with similar farm (Skarner/WW can reasonably heal through his Qs and survive wither, and Nasus just doesn't have a lot after that besides ult popping for a single champ). Nasus is great in 1v1 against a vast majority of champs and can easily shut down two people in a teamfight (one with Wither, one with pain) if he's farmed, but "wins 1v1 against everybody but three carry mages" isn't necessarily true. Hell, if Nasus avoids wall, Karthus shouldn't be a problematic matchup at all.

[Lix Lorn]

But if anyone is doing terrible things, wouldn't it be Veigar?

Especially because he's a Yordle. He'd totally steal 40 shrooms, or 40 cupcakes, or any number of other things.
...this is virtuous and true.
However, stealing cupcakes will just get him snared by the long gun of the law.

How can I fuse these ideas into one witty line?
Veigar stole forty cupcakes, and Cait's running out of traps? I dunno.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hell, if Nasus avoids wall, Karthus shouldn't be a problematic matchup at all.

Yep. I've actually found mages the least of my concerns, if I have Banshee's or FoN (and Nasus should have one of these), and maybe Mercs. If they can't kill me outright in a combo, I'll down them in two hits, and can probably catch them with Wither/Phage/Mallet/Triforce (pick one or more). I'm much more afraid of tanky, high-damage characters, who can sometimes manage to 1v1 me if they play well, or farmed carries with natural escaping ability and long range (Vayne, Ezreal, Tristana can all really mess up Nasus' day if played right).

[Eldariel]

Yep. I've actually found mages the least of my concerns, if I have Banshee's or FoN (and Nasus should have one of these), and maybe Mercs. If they can't kill me outright in a combo, I'll down them in two hits, and can probably catch them with Wither/Phage/Mallet/Triforce (pick one or more). I'm much more afraid of tanky, high-damage characters, who can sometimes manage to 1v1 me if they play well, or farmed carries with natural escaping ability and long range (Vayne, Ezreal, Tristana can all really mess up Nasus' day if played right).

Hi, I'm Anivia. There's a wall in front of you. Also, you're taking DoT from Glacial Storm, moving slowly and stunned when you do move freely alongside 1000-damage spikes in your face. At the best you can run away.

[PEACH]

I don't think there is ever a point Anivia can get to 1000 damage spikes on a tanky character, thanks to that pesky mr thing. Yes, Anivia can kite well, but if she misses anything or, hell, Nasus just withers and barrels through/around, he can smash her pretty easily.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hi, I'm Anivia. There's a wall in front of you. Also, you're taking DoT from Glacial Storm, moving slowly and stunned when you do move freely alongside 1000-damage spikes in your face. At the best you can run away.

Then you run. Congrats...a mage you don't fight except in team fights. Yeah, there are exceptions (Anivia being one)...but Nasus can definitely escape that, and if he DOES get within range Anivia is in serious trouble.

She's about as good a hard counter as he has though. You're definitely correct there, due to the fact that she has THREE abilities that keep Nasus away, two of which he has no real counterplay against (wall + AoE slow).

[Terribad]

To play for fun?
Singed. I love having a hissing sound as I'm running around like a madman dripping stuff and have opposing heroes SCATTER BEFORE ME

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
Cassiopeia or Kennen. Cass because of her raw power and strong team fight presence. Kennen because energy-based AP carries are awesome.

For the looks/feel of the character?
Gangplank. Since Tides of Blood (anyone remember that tragically awesome War3 MOBA map?) I've always liked piratey heroes. Gangplank has nice voicing and skins, so always a pleasure playing him, usually only on Dominion or as Supportplank

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
Lux. aaaaaaaAAAAAHHH DEMACIA!

[fred dref]

Yep. I've actually found mages the least of my concerns, if I have Banshee's or FoN (and Nasus should have one of these), and maybe Mercs. If they can't kill me outright in a combo, I'll down them in two hits, and can probably catch them with Wither/Phage/Mallet/Triforce (pick one or more). I'm much more afraid of tanky, high-damage characters, who can sometimes manage to 1v1 me if they play well, or farmed carries with natural escaping ability and long range (Vayne, Ezreal, Tristana can all really mess up Nasus' day if played right).

I've found Tristana and Ezreal to be the only carries that can really threaten a Nasus, mainly because Ezreal does decent damage with Q even when Withered, and Tristana has the escape/knockback to disengage and the range to get some hits in before Wither goes off. I've never had trouble with Vayne past the lane phase.


While Nasus does do really well in 1v1s, even fairly farmed he can be beaten by AD carries that can kite (see: Anybody with a dash+a mallet and possibly mercs), and some people can legitimately threaten him with similar farm (Skarner/WW can reasonably heal through his Qs and survive wither, and Nasus just doesn't have a lot after that besides ult popping for a single champ). Nasus is great in 1v1 against a vast majority of champs and can easily shut down two people in a teamfight (one with Wither, one with pain) if he's farmed, but "wins 1v1 against everybody but three carry mages" isn't necessarily true. Hell, if Nasus avoids wall, Karthus shouldn't be a problematic matchup at all.

If Karthus has Rylai's, you're gonna have a bad time.

Warwick, Yi and Olaf are three that I forgot about when making my sweeping statement. Warwick does most of his damage through Q anyway, and Yi/Olaf completely ignore Wither. I've never dueled a Skarner, but he seems really reliant on attacking things for the CDR to truly shine.

Eldariel, I have never faced a good Anivia player, but I imagine Anivia can easily just say NOPE if she sees a Nasus running at her face.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I've found Tristana and Ezreal to be the only carries that can really threaten a Nasus, mainly because Ezreal does decent damage with Q even when Withered, and Tristana has the escape/knockback to disengage and the range to get some hits in before Wither goes off. I've never had trouble with Vayne past the lane phase.

If the Vayne is good and decently fed, she can kite you long enough to put you down hard, even through Wither. Of course, few Vaynes ARE this good, and she probably needs a bush for a bit better kiting, but she can definitely do it.

[Delusion]

A quite vague hypothetical question:

What do you do when you get trulyand totally outpicked?
Just stay back, tower hug and try to farm? Pray for ganks?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A quite vague hypothetical question:

What do you do when you get trulyand totally outpicked?
Just stay back, tower hug and try to farm? Pray for ganks?

You personally? Your lane? Your entire team?

Those make big differences. If it's me/my lane, I'd normally see if a lane swap is available, and if not I'd play VERY defensively and call in regular ganks.

[Dogmantra]

A quite vague hypothetical question:

What do you do when you get trulyand totally outpicked?
Just stay back, tower hug and try to farm? Pray for ganks?

In lane, you swap your lanes. Often your lane opponent top needs the bushes and your lane opponent mid needs the shorter safer lane to really really outfight you, so swapping can help even if they swap too.

In the game, you just gotta work out what you DO do better than their team and then abuse it as much as you can.

[PEACH]

If Karthus has Rylai's, you're gonna have a bad time.

Not really? I mean, I guess if you get hit by a single target skittle on the way in, it could slow you down, but in melee range Karthus is *not* getting away from a Nasus with even the basic mallet and boots on Q kiting. Honestly, the only threat Karthus has to Nasus is dropping the wall directly on top of him, which does have no counterplay and does open Nasus up for taking a lot of poke.


Warwick, Yi and Olaf are three that I forgot about when making my sweeping statement. Warwick does most of his damage through Q anyway, and Yi/Olaf completely ignore Wither. I've never dueled a Skarner, but he seems really reliant on attacking things for the CDR to truly shine.

Skarner has huge amounts of damage mitigation (not as much as WW, granted) which can reasonably get him through a wither barrage, especially since mercs and FH are pretty core on Skarner. After that, Skarner has huge DPS and sustain, so he can give Nasus a run for his money.


Eldariel, I have never faced a good Anivia player, but I imagine Anivia can easily just say NOPE if she sees a Nasus running at her face.

She can, but she can't exactly kill him and if wall is down and she gets in wither range (required for E, I believe) Nasus can make it into a slugfest, especially since he'll probably be able to move out of ult range at the same time.

[Silverraptor]

Question on Rylai's. Does the ability stack for multiple spells?

Look at karthus, for example. AoE damage over time does 15% slow. Then he could try to kite you with his q, which would be considered single target spell as well, giving 30% slow. Does this mean you're slowed for 45%, or just the 30%.

(Please note, I don't have the exact slow memorized)

[fred dref]

Slows stack with diminishing returns. I am not sure if it is multiplicative or some other formula, but 15%+15%!=30% when dealing with slows.

Also, for those unaware, Karthus Q slows for 15% with Rylai's regardless of single-target or not, but it does spellvamp for the full amount on single-target hits.

[tyckspoon]

Question on Rylai's. Does the ability stack for multiple spells?

Look at karthus, for example. AoE damage over time does 15% slow. Then he could try to kite you with his q, which would be considered single target spell as well, giving 30% slow. Does this mean you're slowed for 45%, or just the 30%.

(Please note, I don't have the exact slow memorized)

I'm reasonably sure only the best slow from a given source applies. What constitutes a 'source' gets a bit odd with how many ways there are to apply slows in the game, but Rylai's is pretty straightforward.

[fred dref]

I should probably mention that "item slows" can only apply once, and "spell slows" stack with diminishing returns with each other.

This assumes Riot didn't change slow interactions when I wasn't looking.

[ex cathedra]

To play for fun?
Lee Sin and Mordekaiser. Also Veigar.
Because Lee Sin is the best champion in the game but my Lee Sin mehcanics are below my mechanics with other champions. :< No one else is actually as fun as Lee Sin to play, though. He can build pretty much any item and he can skill in pretty much any order and he goes everywhere and he does everything and no one compares to him.
Mordekaiser, similarly, is just really fun to play. My midlaning is weaker than it could be and I don't like a lot of Morde's lane matchups (or his reliance on a team) so I don't play him seriously, but averaging like 13 CS per minute in the first 10/20 minutes is cathartic. I enjoy farming.
Viegar's ability to instantly turn a fight into something other than a 5v5 is also really satisfying. I play him occasionally when I feel like relaxing.

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
Kennen/Udyr. I'm like 8-2 and 5-0 with them, respectively.
0-skill champions for free Elo. Kennen is probably my best laner and Udyr suits my jungling style best. He's tanky and fast but he ganks harder than Shyvana and he has more CC than Mundo. Also, I feel like I can make the most impact on a game as a solo laner/jungler.

For the looks/feel of the character?
Irelia.
Irelia feels good to play. Bladesurge is probably my favorite skill in the entire game. Playing Irelia just makes me feel happy. Also, I like her skins. They need to release a fourth Irelia skin so that I can buy my third. Irelia is like the best champion in the game if the game didn't have champions like Lee Sin.

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
Master Yi and Lux. Because I like lasers and pentakills, okay? So sue me.

[Darth Mario]

I should probably mention that "item slows" can only apply once, and "spell slows" stack with diminishing returns with each other.

This assumes Riot didn't change slow interactions when I wasn't looking.

This. The top item slow is used.

It should be noted that Randuin's Omen counts as a spell slow, not an item slow, since it's an activatable ability.

[fred dref]

Yeah, when I say item slow and spell slow that's what they're called, but holy crap Riot is inconsistent with the names. I still have no idea which kind of slow Gunblade is, because I either don't have a slow from anywhere else, or I'm using Gunblade so I can get close enough to apply another slow. Never do the two meet.

[Dogmantra]

wheee system restore gotta redo all my mastery pages

anyone got fun names for them?

EDIT: and while we're at it fun mastery pages to try?

[Silverraptor]

wheee system restore gotta redo all my mastery pages

anyone got fun names for them?

EDIT: and while we're at it fun mastery pages to try?

1) D
2) O
3) G
4) M
5) A
6) N
7) T
8) R
9) A
10) !

:smalltongue:

[Math_Mage]

Rules of slows are:
-Strongest slow has 100% effect
-Other slows stack with a 35% effect
-Slows from the same source do not stack (red buff, multiple Exhausts, Frost Shot and Volley, etc).
-Passive item slows do not stack.
-Movement speed has a soft floor at 220 (50% effectiveness below that).

[Arbitrarity]

Total towers taken on our team; 5.
Towers taken before 30 minutes; 0.
Inhibs up after 30 minutes; 0.
DEAL WITH IT.

http://i.imgur.com/UkVOO.jpg

[fred dref]

Total towers taken on our team; 5.
Towers taken before 30 minutes; 0.
Inhibs up after 30 minutes; 0.
DEAL WITH IT.

http://imgur.com/UkVOO

That is neither hyperlinked nor image tagged.

[Arbitrarity]

I haven't used imgur for a while, its copy paste is trolling me.

[Eldariel]

Huh. 4-0 and counting on Riven in ranked thus far (solo top and jungle mixed). Why didn't anyone tell me you just EWQQQ on her and win everything forever? Also, 2-3 with Shen. One of those was actually partially my fault, too.

[Terribad]

So the next upcoming hero is a lady centaur....

edit: Despite nerfs, Shen is still so strong. All the bans I see are Kassadin, LeBlanc, Shaco, Morgana, Shen and 1 random (usually Lee Sin or Sion)

[Tesla_pasta]

To play for fun?

MUNDO TROLLS WHO HE PLEASES


To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?

If I can carry, then tristana or sivir.
Sivir for the most part, because she feels suprisingly strong early game for a carry, and can participate in epic kill lanes. also, her abilities can still scale off raw AD, which gives her better rewards for building right as opposed to carries with AP ratios on abilities that go to waste.

For the looks/feel of the character?

Fiddlesticks.
because CAW CAW CAW all day long. also, fearing and draining and long range silence nuking never get old. never.


Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?

ooooh tie between nocturne's Paranoia and Galio's Idol of Durand.

[Eldariel]

To play for fun? Anyone at least somewhat interesting mechanically. Jarvan, Lee Sin, Anivia, Janna, Orianna, TF, Ezreal, Urgot, Riven, Blitzcrank, etc. Or Singed, for the sheer fun of running. Also, I'm really fond of Shen. Eh, I probably find like 99% of the champions in this game fun (and the remaining 1% I can't think of right now).

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)? Uh, see above. I don't try terribly hard in ranked or normal right now. If I get onto a team, maybe, but right now I'm on a leisure trip to 2k.

For the looks/feel of the character? Shen, Anivia, Janna, TF, Jarvan.

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic? Anivia. There's a Wall there.

[Sohala]

To play for fun?
Jungle Teemo
To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
Any champion I am supporting with, other than Sona...I feel I troll too much with her, regardless of how well I am playing her.
For the looks/feel of the character?
Champions of the tanky variety, or those I can build somewhat tanky.
Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
Maokai - saplings, Teemo - shrooms

[Silverraptor]

Huh. 4-0 and counting on Riven in ranked thus far (solo top and jungle mixed). Why didn't anyone tell me you just EWQQQ on her and win everything forever? Also, 2-3 with Shen. One of those was actually partially my fault, too.

Wait, really? You start with E?

[fred dref]

Wait, really? You start with E?

I think that's the order you use skills, not take them, although I could be wrong.

[Math_Mage]

Wait, really? You start with E?

No, that's the attack sequence. Dash in, stun, triple Q. I imagine Q is usually taken first.

Also, this seems like a good way to consider why nobody plays Renekton--his skillset is basically the same, but he doesn't scale as well, isn't consistently as mobile, and doesn't stun in an AOE.

[PersonMan]

Although in my experience, I always fail with Riven and do pretty well with Renekton. I have no idea why.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

To play for fun? Ahri, Janna, Leona. Anything that'll let me do stupid things, survive them and pretend it was a Big Play. AS Lulu, for being stupid.

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)? Graves/Sivir, Udyr, Warwick, Skarner, Ahri, Leona/Janna. I try to keep a broad roster of champs I can play decently.

For the looks/feel of the character? Irelia, Ezreal, Ahri, Leona. I like high-mobility champs, and these champ's designs always stuck out to me.

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic? Ahri's R, for the Big Plays. Janna's everything, for the Big Plays. Lux's R, because lasers. WW's Q because it's just so satisfying to hit people with. Lulu's W, because squirrels. There's a whole bunch of 'em.

[Chumbaniya]

Total towers taken on our team; 5.
Towers taken before 30 minutes; 0.
Inhibs up after 30 minutes; 0.
DEAL WITH IT.

http://i.imgur.com/UkVOO.jpg

Seeing Frozen Mallet and Warmogs without Atmas makes me deeply uncomfortable. The problem is I don't really know what you're replace with the Atmas.

[Copper8642]

To play for fun? Whoever I bought most recently. Currently, that's Leblanc. That said, I also have a number of champs I own who are fun enough to go back to, and a number I probably won't touch again.

To play in ranked (or just more competitively in a normal game)?
I should note that these are all blind/draft pick normals. I haven't and might not ever touch ranked.
Top Lane: Nasus
Mid: Leblanc
Bot Carry: If I do what I'm supposed to do, Vayne. That said, I like picking Xin Zhao there.
Support: I'm kinda garbage here. Probably Janna, Taric when he's free.
Jungle: I understand Udyr is far and away a better jungler, but in the normal games I play, I prefer to play (and can get away with playing) Jax in the jungle.
Overall: Nasus. I'm really good as Nasus.

For the looks/feel of the character?
Pantheon. This man was made for fighting. For some reason, it strikes me as highly thematic that he has one of the highest move speeds. He's first to the front.

Because of 1 defining ability/characteristic?
Defining characteristic: Jax. This is a champ who's backstory is literally "He's the best."

[Qaera]

With Riven, you want to be AAing after 2-3 passive stacks so that you don't waste them. So, EWAAQAAQAAQAA. But I haven't played her in a while.

~ ♅

[Talesin]

With Riven, you want to be AAing after 2-3 passive stacks so that you don't waste them. So, EWAAQAAQAAQAA. But I haven't played her in a while.

~ ♅

Well that's if you're going for max damage. But I find QQQAAWE to be a good harass mechanism.

Your second or third Q will land on them, doing damage, you auto attack for more damage and then stun them for more damage. Then use your E to get away, negate any minion attacks, and attempt to trade for free.

Admittidly if they start attacking you as you approach, as they should but people at my ELO don't, then leading in with E will negate some of this damage.

[Draken]

Total towers taken on our team; 5.
Towers taken before 30 minutes; 0.
Inhibs up after 30 minutes; 0.
DEAL WITH IT.

http://i.imgur.com/UkVOO.jpg

Most damn intense game of all time.

[Chumbaniya]

Just played my first game with Nocturne since buying him (I've played him a few times on free weeks). He's definitely going on my list of Big Play champions. You can just ult into a group of 4 enemies and not even care. It didn't even matter that our mid was DCing throughout the game, I still went 5-0 early on and finished 11-2 :D

I think my build was a bit sketchy though. I went boots +3 to start (happy with this), then Phage, merc treads, +45 armour, finish Frozen Mallet, finish Atmas, Warmogs, then started building a Bloodthirster just before the enemy surrendered.

I'm trying to get out of building Wriggles as a universal habit on physical damage junglers, so I'm not too worried about missing that, but it didn't feel like my build was quite there. Obviously I want to build tanky, since Noct has great damage steroids already and needs to be able to initiate, but I'm not exactly sure where I want to go with it.

[Adumbration]

Brief guide on Janna supporting (made it for a different forum, but I figured someone might appreciate it here too):
Laning phase:
1) Reactive shields. Learn them - they are your saving grace on the lane. They stop harass effectively, and let your carry counter harass.
2) Autoattacks. If you use the brushes effectively, you can get free autoattacks on enemy carries/supports. This forces them to play passive and allow aggressive plays by your carry.
3) Reactive gales. Q can stop Alistar Headbutts, Shyvana ults, Tristana Rocket jumps and all kinds of shenanigans, if timed right.
4) Ults. If you time Monsoon perfectly and at a perfect position and angle, you can stun the enemy for a second or so against the wall, much like Headbutt does. This can win crucial fights.

General big plays:
1) PROTECT YOUR CARRY. Late game he deals the big deeps, and you need to protect him from the big scary tanky deeps. Q, W, E, Exhaust, Ult, in that order as necessary.
2) CC. You are the CC machine. When your AD carry doesn't need your protection, use your abilities to interrupt the enemy.
3) Ult. If you time it well, you can use your ult to separate the enemy team - try to get it so that the squishies go next to your team and the tanks/heavies go far away.

[Arbitrarity]

Seeing Frozen Mallet and Warmogs without Atmas makes me deeply uncomfortable. The problem is I don't really know what you're replace with the Atmas.

Can't do it. Teemo was on-hit for most of the game, so I needed more MR and health (he didn't have Bloodrazor, IIRC). I sold GA for Warmogs at 50 minutes after losing GA effect. I can't trade Maw in, it gives fairly comparable AD and MR, I can't trade BT in, it was fully stacked and gave more AD (needed LS for dueling) and I can't trade boots or Mallet in, since I needed those to stick on targets.

[XiaoTie]

Brief guide on Janna supporting (made it for a different forum, but I figured someone might appreciate it here too):
Laning phase:
1) Reactive shields. Learn them - they are your saving grace on the lane. They stop harass effectively, and let your carry counter harass.
2) Autoattacks. If you use the brushes effectively, you can get free autoattacks on enemy carries/supports. This forces them to play passive and allow aggressive plays by your carry.
3) Reactive gales. Q can stop Alistar Headbutts, Shyvana ults, Tristana Rocket jumps and all kinds of shenanigans, if timed right.
4) Ults. If you time Monsoon perfectly and at a perfect position and angle, you can stun the enemy for a second or so against the wall, much like Headbutt does. This can win crucial fights.

General big plays:
1) PROTECT YOUR CARRY. Late game he deals the big deeps, and you need to protect him from the big scary tanky deeps. Q, W, E, Exhaust, Ult, in that order as necessary.
2) CC. You are the CC machine. When your AD carry doesn't need your protection, use your abilities to interrupt the enemy.
3) Ult. If you time it well, you can use your ult to separate the enemy team - try to get it so that the squishies go next to your team and the tanks/heavies go far away.

I've been playing a lot as Janna and it's good to see a guide like this. The only use I had for brushes was to send of a Gale on the enemy, but I'd leave as soon as it went out. But now I know I should stay in there longer. :D

[Astrella]

I've been playing a lot as Janna and it's good to see a guide like this. The only use I had for brushes was to send of a Gale on the enemy, but I'd leave as soon as it went out. But now I know I should stay in there longer. :D

It's pretty much a general thing to do as a support. Don't forget that if the enemy doesn't keep up with warding that it's also a really good zoning tool.

[Joran]

No, that's the attack sequence. Dash in, stun, triple Q. I imagine Q is usually taken first.

Also, this seems like a good way to consider why nobody plays Renekton--his skillset is basically the same, but he doesn't scale as well, isn't consistently as mobile, and doesn't stun in an AOE.

Does Voyboy still play Renekton?

[Adumbration]

I've been playing a lot as Janna and it's good to see a guide like this. The only use I had for brushes was to send of a Gale on the enemy, but I'd leave as soon as it went out. But now I know I should stay in there longer. :D

Pop out to hit once or twice when they go for CS, go back into the brush straight afterwards. Mind you, the counter to this strategy is warding the brush, allowing for counter harass on you - and you should be mindful that once the enemy get's to the point where they can kill you fast you should do it only cautiously.

[Zen Master]

I think my build was a bit sketchy though. I went boots +3 to start (happy with this), then Phage, merc treads, +45 armour, finish Frozen Mallet, finish Atmas, Warmogs, then started building a Bloodthirster just before the enemy surrendered.

I just bought him, and tried pretty much the same build vs bots - wasn't fun at all, I pretty much died constantly.

Bots op =)

[Math_Mage]

Does Voyboy still play Renekton?

Good question, I've no idea. I know it's his Lee Sin (among others') that people were raving about after Hanover, though.

[Chumbaniya]

I just bought him, and tried pretty much the same build vs bots - wasn't fun at all, I pretty much died constantly.

Bots op =)

After a couple more games, it's clear he's pretty reliant on being ahead. Because he doesn't have any defensive steroids you get squashed if you're even slightly behind any enemies you try to fight. I like him, but he doesn't recover from being behind in the same way that support-style junglers can. If he's behind, he's dead weight. If he's ahead, he will consume the enemy team.

[ex cathedra]

I think my build was a bit sketchy though. I went boots +3 to start (happy with this), then Phage, merc treads, +45 armour, finish Frozen Mallet, finish Atmas, Warmogs, then started building a Bloodthirster just before the enemy surrendered.

I'm trying to get out of building Wriggles as a universal habit on physical damage junglers, so I'm not too worried about missing that, but it didn't feel like my build was quite there. Obviously I want to build tanky, since Noct has great damage steroids already and needs to be able to initiate, but I'm not exactly sure where I want to go with it.

I think that I run jungle Nocturne with Attack Speed/Armor/Scaling MR/Lifesteal, 17/13/0, Boots+3 > 2x Doran's Blade > Wriggles/Phage. Tabi/Treads, obviously. On a jungler's salary, I would really suggest against planning on buying several items that cost as much as Frozen Mallet or Warmog's. 2x Doran's, Phage, Aegis or Hexdrinker/Wit's End or Wriggle's followed by Atma's core. He has issues against other bruisers, to be honest. He's not a good pick against a terribly tanky enemy team, but if he has targets like Ashe or Kog'Maw to ult on he's really dominant.


Does Voyboy still play Renekton?
Not to my knowledge. His tournament play consists mostly of Lee Sin and Irelia, and he's been playing a lot of Lee Sin and Jax in solo queue.

[Winthur]

I'm trying to get out of building Wriggles as a universal habit on physical damage junglers, so I'm not too worried about missing that, but it didn't feel like my build was quite there. Obviously I want to build tanky, since Noct has great damage steroids already and needs to be able to initiate, but I'm not exactly sure where I want to go with it.

But why would you want to skip Wriggles or at least deny yourself some replacement? You rush Phage. Wriggles gives you armor, damage and lifesteal. That's strong for ganking, sustaining yourself, farming, controlling dragon and buffs, quick barons mid-late game, and even grants you a ward too.

If you want an alternative, stack 2-3 Doran's Blades for HP against burst damage, decent bonuses on damage, and even a lifesteal bonus.

And as for tanky items, Phage into Atmas into Frozen Mallet is a good start. Warmogs works too. If you want to add to your damage then Ghostblade might render you a wee bit too squishy but adding a Brutalizer or some GP/10 items (HoG) is not a bad idea.

[PersonMan]

In response to an earlier (page 4) query on how to fuse humorous references with humorous references, I fused your humorous references (with other humorous references, not only the ones in question) so that you can make humorous references while making humorous references (I heard you like humorous references, you see). Instead of making the fused humorous references into a humorous reference-packed line I made a picture.

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/Scarge/VeigCake.jpg

Trivia: There are fourty (40; that's four tens) traps that Veigar took the cupcakes from while nobody was looking.
It took ~130 minutes for me to make this.

Fun Questions: Who does the gun belong to? Which skin?
What small change did I make to Veigar (not the cakes or Event Horizon Mouth)?

[Arbitrarity]

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/Scarge/VeigCake.jpg

Trivia: There are fourty (40; that's four tens) traps that Veigar took the cupcakes from while nobody was looking.
It took ~130 minutes for me to make this.

Fun Questions: Who does the gun belong to? Which skin?
What small change did I make to Veigar (not the cakes or Event Horizon Mouth)?

Resistance Caitlyn (Probably Chinese splash art, since it has that angle), and you replaced staff orb with his passive icon.

[Pie Guy]

Most damn intense game of all time.

Weirdest part was when we aced them 3-4 times in a row and were still down kills.

[PersonMan]

Resistance Caitlyn (Probably Chinese splash art, since it has that angle), and you replaced staff orb with his passive icon.

Correct on both counts.

[Chumbaniya]

I think that I run jungle Nocturne with Attack Speed/Armor/Scaling MR/Lifesteal, 17/13/0, Boots+3 > 2x Doran's Blade > Wriggles/Phage. Tabi/Treads, obviously. On a jungler's salary, I would really suggest against planning on buying several items that cost as much as Frozen Mallet or Warmog's. 2x Doran's, Phage, Aegis or Hexdrinker/Wit's End or Wriggle's followed by Atma's core. He has issues against other bruisers, to be honest. He's not a good pick against a terribly tanky enemy team, but if he has targets like Ashe or Kog'Maw to ult on he's really dominant.

That sounds about right for the runes - I can't afford a specific Nocturne rune page though, so I run AD quints with those reds/yellows/blues, which is my usual physical damage jungler setup. I don't feel like I'd want to get Aegis on Nocturne - I think it's because I'd prefer to speed up getting defensive items that have an offensive advantage too - Atma's and Wit's End particularly. I'd been completely ignoring Doran's Blades, but they're actually a really obvious solid choice for packing in some extra stats early on - I'll be grabbing some next time I play.


But why would you want to skip Wriggles or at least deny yourself some replacement? You rush Phage. Wriggles gives you armor, damage and lifesteal. That's strong for ganking, sustaining yourself, farming, controlling dragon and buffs, quick barons mid-late game, and even grants you a ward too.

If you want an alternative, stack 2-3 Doran's Blades for HP against burst damage, decent bonuses on damage, and even a lifesteal bonus.

And as for tanky items, Phage into Atmas into Frozen Mallet is a good start. Warmogs works too. If you want to add to your damage then Ghostblade might render you a wee bit too squishy but adding a Brutalizer or some GP/10 items (HoG) is not a bad idea.

Whilst I am trying to get out of buying Wriggles as a habit, on further thought it does seem strong on Nocturne. He has damage scaling (so the damage is good), an AS steroid (so the damage, lifesteal and proc are good) and an AD steroid (so the lifesteal is good) so it doesn't make sense to avoid it on principle.

I did just have a hilarious time with some low level friends in a premade blind pick game, building Zerkers, Bloodthirster, PD, Frozen Mallet and going 17-2. That was nice.

[Lix Lorn]

So the next upcoming hero is a lady centaur....
If my sources* are correct, she'll be a ranged carry.
* The LoL wiki champions page lists 'a new ranged carry mentioned by a red as being after the support'


To play for fun? Ahri, Janna, Leona. Anything that'll let me do stupid things, survive them and pretend it was a Big Play. AS Lulu, for being stupid.
My record with AS Lulu is getting odd. O_o


In response to an earlier (page 4) query on how to fuse humorous references with humorous references, I fused your humorous references (with other humorous references, not only the ones in question) so that you can make humorous references while making humorous references (I heard you like humorous references, you see). Instead of making the fused humorous references into a humorous reference-packed line I made a picture.

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/Scarge/VeigCake.jpg

Trivia: There are fourty (40; that's four tens) traps that Veigar took the cupcakes from while nobody was looking.
It took ~130 minutes for me to make this.

Fun Questions: Who does the gun belong to? Which skin?
What small change did I make to Veigar (not the cakes or Event Horizon Mouth)?
...win. xD

[Nadevoc]

After a couple more games, it's clear he's pretty reliant on being ahead. Because he doesn't have any defensive steroids you get squashed if you're even slightly behind any enemies you try to fight. I like him, but he doesn't recover from being behind in the same way that support-style junglers can. If he's behind, he's dead weight. If he's ahead, he will consume the enemy team.

I haven't seen this problem at all. He doesn't need any defensive steroids; he can afford to build pretty much pure defense because he gets +55 damage and +40%/80% AS. My biggest issue has been feeling sorta useless pre-6 or when my ult is on CD. And I know I'm ACTUALLY still a quite capable character, I just always really miss having my ult. I really need to switch over to boot + 3 pots, though, so I can feel useful earlier. I just play him rarely enough I go cloth + 5 to cover any mistakes.

I also switch between 21/9/0 and 9/21/0 depending on how confident I'm feeling going in. I feel like I should be able to do 21/9/0 and then build pure defense after Wriggle's.

[ex cathedra]

That sounds about right for the runes - I can't afford a specific Nocturne rune page though, so I run AD quints with those reds/yellows/blues, which is my usual physical damage jungler setup. I don't feel like I'd want to get Aegis on Nocturne - I think it's because I'd prefer to speed up getting defensive items that have an offensive advantage too - Atma's and Wit's End particularly. I'd been completely ignoring Doran's Blades, but they're actually a really obvious solid choice for packing in some extra stats early on - I'll be grabbing some next time I play.

I found that Lifesteal quints made an enormous difference to my Noct jungle. Since his nerfs, his jungling has been a bit awkward and he could never really take any terribly optimal starts. He could always Vamp Scepter sustained route straight to level 6, but his pre-6 ganks are actually quite strong and Vamp Scepter and Cloth armor starts kind of put those pre-6 ganks to waste. With his massive inherent steroids, Noct justs lifesteals so much. Like, between runes and masteries I hit 15% lifesteal with nothing but two doran's blades. That's pretty much infinite sustain in jungle and, while Wriggles is still a great item, Nocturne always clears quickly (dem steroids) so he doesn't actually need it. 17/13/0 and boots+3 allows for an absurdly reliable early game and comparatively strong level 2/3/4 ganks.

[toasty]

Does Voyboy still play Renekton?

He hasn't in forever. A lot more EU teams play him now.

[Winthur]

He hasn't in forever. A lot more EU teams play him now.
Even Wickd seems to be practicing him.
Dyrus pumped out games with him too, just enough to make another guide

[Bunny of Faith]

So, uh. Twisted Treeline. Bot lane Morgana vs Annie and AD Sion, Mundo top vs GP. That was a weird experience.

http://i42.tinypic.com/kdnx9w.jpg

Edit: ... Wut?
http://i42.tinypic.com/nmaxc5.jpg

[Nadevoc]

I've decided jungle Naut is awesome. His start is slow and sort of awkward, and you really need someone to help you kill wolves before leashing blue. But when you hit level four at the end of your first clear, you get to start being a hero. Amazing ganks transitioning into a very solid teamfight presence who offers initiation, disruption, and peeling. I still can't seem to manage to line his ult up well in teamfights, but if you can initiate a gank without needing to Q in, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill. And even if you do need the Q to get in, your chances are still really high. Seriously, hook + slow + short root on first hit (+ stun if ult is up)? So good.

Thanks for the suggestion, Zach. I wouldn't have even looked at him otherwise, since I tried him a few times when he came out and apparently played him dead wrong and wasn't impressed.

[Mtg_player_zach]

I've decided jungle Naut is awesome. His start is slow and sort of awkward, and you really need someone to help you kill wolves before leashing blue. But when you hit level four at the end of your first clear, you get to start being a hero. Amazing ganks transitioning into a very solid teamfight presence who offers initiation, disruption, and peeling. I still can't seem to manage to line his ult up well in teamfights, but if you can initiate a gank without needing to Q in, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill. And even if you do need the Q to get in, your chances are still really high. Seriously, hook + slow + short root on first hit (+ stun if ult is up)? So good.

Thanks for the suggestion, Zach. I wouldn't have even looked at him otherwise, since I tried him a few times when he came out and apparently played him dead wrong and wasn't impressed.


Glad to be of help. I really like him. There are just so many junglers that I love playing that I don't get to play him enough. He's got a really good feel to him I think. Just so huge and menacing, and landing hooks is about the best feeling ever.

[Terribad]

17/13/0 and boots+3 allows for an absurdly reliable early game and comparatively strong level 2/3/4 ganks.

So whats your final rune set up for jungle noc? I'm looking for new junglers to play beyond Udyr and GP. Yes I have Lifesteal Quints, used to pack them on my AD carries in blind pick normals with no supports

[Chumbaniya]

Best TT game yesterday. Me and the two guys on my team who do ranked 3v3s together played against some lower level friends of one of the guys. Of course we were beating them pretty badly, but started messing around - we were WW (me)/Nautilus/Sejuani so all pretty tanky, and ended up running around like idiots in their base. We'd taken the last tower when we decided to have Sejauni sell all of her items and buy 2 BTs, berserker treads and a recurve bow, and then me and Nautilus engaged them 2v3. It took us a while to get them to chase us, but eventually we got into a proper fight and they eventually killed both of us. Meanwhile, Sejuani had dashed across the wall into their base and proceeded to kill their Nexus!

Had some good games before this with 1 of my usual teammates and his low level friends in premade blind-pick 5s. Went 17-2 with a full AD Nocturne, which was fun. Killstealing with his ult is FUN.

[XiaoTie]

Nashor's Tooth on Ali (jungle cow and sometimes on late support cow) seems like a pretty good item. I mean, AP, CDR, Attack Speed...

Am I doing one of those stupid noob mistakes ("LOOKAT THEM NUMBAHS!") or did I find a nice item for the cows that wish to be a tad more aggressive?

[Dogmantra]

Trouble with Nashor's Tooth is that it's just stats on a legendary tier item. There are two reasons for upgrading items rather than filling your inventory with BF Swords or Null Magic Mantles. The first is slot efficiency, which Nashor's does admittedly do quite well. The second is to get the sweet passives and actives. Compare with other typically bought items on Cow Man, Shurelya's has probably the second strongest active in the game (second obviously to QSS), Triforce gets you the Sheen proc and the slow, in addition to the movespeed. Nashor's Tooth just gets you stats. More than that, stats which aren't particularly useful or particularly hard to get.

Attack Speed is pretty useless without AD or onhits to back it up. While it would be alright while you're ulting, you're going to be attacking so little during that time since you're moving around controlling the battlefield you won't make much use of it.

AP is nice, but if you want AP you can get it much more easily elsewhere. (2000ish gold for 55 AP, when you can buy 80 AP for 1600 gold)

Similarly, the CDR is good, but if you add up runes and masteries, plus Shurelya's and, say, a Frozen Heart, you've basically hit the cap already. And they're not uncommon items to buy on Alistar.

[XiaoTie]

Hum, good to know :D

I was using it with a Triforce whenever our team had some tankier people, to help on the damage area. But oh well, "the more you know".

Oh, and I didn't have a Frozen Heart or a Shurelya, and my runes are pretty much only Armor, MR and Gold/10

[Dogmantra]

If you want similar items for damage on Alistar, I'd grab a Black Cleaver, a Ghostblade or a Hat, depending on whether you like the whacking part or the ability part.

[Chumbaniya]

I feel like CDR is the only thing that is of primary importance that you get from Nashor's on Alistar, and you can max that out anyway with Frozen Heart, Shurelias and defence masteries.

When it comes to aggressive items, I'd much rather get hold of Triforce since it gives you movespeed and health (both of which I consider stats of primary importance on Ali) plus a good mix of offensive stats including the proc, which is probably worth more damage than the extra AS and AP Nashor's offers over Triforce since you don't have any high DPS spells or much attack damage (and anyway, the AS loss vs Nashor's is more than made up for by the AD and crit on Triforce - crits with a Triforce proc and your ult active can actually be pretty nasty).

If you have to go for heavy damage items on Alistar, your team probably won't be enough for you to win the game anyway. Focus on staying alive and using your CC frequently and in the best positions possible (which is why I think CDR and movespeed are really important).

[Math_Mage]

Considering that even people who can use all of Nashor's stats in synergy--short CD damage spells and AP to autoattacks (think Jax, Kayle, Kog, TF, Orianna)--usually don't buy it, it certainly isn't optimal for Alistar.

I do want to see a return of AP Cow, but jungle probably isn't enough gold for him to get his staple Hat+Lichkiller damage items.

[Chumbaniya]

Considering that even people who can use all of Nashor's stats in synergy--short CD damage spells and AP to autoattacks (think Jax, Kayle, Kog, TF, Orianna)--usually don't buy it, it certainly isn't optimal for Alistar.

I do want to see a return of AP Cow, but jungle probably isn't enough gold for him to get his staple Hat+Lichkiller damage items.

You can probably run a pretty decent top lane Alistar. Sure, he's unlikely to work wonders as far as harassing the enemy laner too much, but he should be pretty tough to get rid of vs a lot of bruisers and he sets up the potential for good ganks if you have a high damage, low CC jungler like Shyvana. The only problem is I feel like you probably have to build a decent bit of survivability early on in order to get him to the point where you can start going pure AP, but that isn't much of problem because an Alistar with some survivability is always very useful.

I may give it a go and report back.

[ex cathedra]

So whats your final rune set up for jungle noc? I'm looking for new junglers to play beyond Udyr and GP. Yes I have Lifesteal Quints, used to pack them on my AD carries in blind pick normals with no supports
I mentioned it earlier. :3

I run jungle Nocturne with Attack Speed/Armor/Scaling MR/Lifesteal, 17/13/0, Boots+3 into 2x Doran's Blade
He's really fun, scales well, and puts a lot of pressure on lanes at every stage of the game. He just can't be a primary form of initiation. He has huge synergy with manaless AP carries and strong initiators; Nocturne is significantly stronger if he gets to keep his 7 minute blue, since that syncs up with his first ultimate almost perfectly. However, that's not an excuse to deprive your Morgana, Cassio, Ryze or w/e. Be a team player. The most recent (and final) IPL Killing spree was Dignitas vs TSM. Dignitas mostly won their lanes and won objectives, but TSM ran Vlad top, Kennen mid, Jungle Noct and Ashe bottom and their chain initiation was completely bonkers so they just won (like, they practically aced for 0 against Dignitas with Baron buff).


If you want similar items for damage on Alistar, I'd grab a Black Cleaver, a Ghostblade or a Hat, depending on whether you like the whacking part or the ability part.

This is surprisingly good advice. Ghostblade, specifically, has massive amounts of synergy with Cow. It's like triforce but cheaper, and it has all four sources of multiplicative scaling for AD along with CDR and movespeed, which are fantastic on Alistar. Unlike support-tank Cow, you're only really capable of contributing your full weight to a teamfight when your ult is up, but you should still max out CDR between Ghostblade and Shurelya's/Frozen Heart/Randuin's, etc. Shouldn't be a problem, scales absurdly well into lategame. Tanky AD Alistar is terrifying. :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

This is surprisingly good advice. Ghostblade, specifically, has massive amounts of synergy with Cow. It's like triforce but cheaper, and it has all four sources of multiplicative scaling for AD along with CDR and movespeed, which are fantastic on Alistar. Unlike support-tank Cow, you're only really capable of contributing your full weight to a teamfight when your ult is up, but you should still max out CDR between Ghostblade and Shurelya's/Frozen Heart/Randuin's, etc. Shouldn't be a problem, scales absurdly well into lategame. Tanky AD Alistar is terrifying. :smallfrown:

Just straight AD Ali is downright scary too. Guess what's better than either Trinity or Ghostblade? Both. I did post that game where I just went around the map killing everyone as straight AD Cow :P Your ulti and CC gives you survivability while you rightclick people to death.

[ex cathedra]

Just straight AD Ali is downright scary too. Guess what's better than either Trinity or Ghostblade? Both. I did post that game where I just went around the map killing everyone as straight AD Cow :P Your ulti and CC gives you survivability while you rightclick people to death.

Yup. You straight up out-duel anyone who isn't ranged or Olaf simply because you can right-click them and they can't right-click back while they're in the air/displaced.

That is likely the single most frustrating League experience I've had. Losing lanes is fine and everything, but literally having the same build as an AD Alistar with the exception of my own infinity edge and being unable to kill him is just the worst.

:smallfrown:
He's going to tease me about it, too, once he sees this post.

[Eldariel]

Yup. You straight up out-duel anyone who isn't ranged or Olaf simply because you can right-click them and they can't right-click back while they're in the air/displaced.

And even with ranged people, you have the ridiculous gapcloser that is Headbutt and probably enough damage to outright kill them while they're airborne outta headbutt pulv and your ult to shrug off any slow they're trying to kite you with. And your ult kinda trumps Olaf's ult with a similar duration, in spite of Reckless Swing (though Olaf is as close as it comes to a counter).

[Math_Mage]

I mentioned it earlier. :3

He's really fun, scales well, and puts a lot of pressure on lanes at every stage of the game. He just can't be a primary form of initiation. He has huge synergy with manaless AP carries and strong initiators; Nocturne is significantly stronger if he gets to keep his 7 minute blue, since that syncs up with his first ultimate almost perfectly. However, that's not an excuse to deprive your Morgana, Cassio, Ryze or w/e. Be a team player. The most recent (and final) IPL Killing spree was Dignitas vs TSM. Dignitas mostly won their lanes and won objectives, but TSM ran Vlad top, Kennen mid, Jungle Noct and Ashe bottom and their chain initiation was completely bonkers so they just won (like, they practically aced for 0 against Dignitas with Baron buff).

I should point out that Dignitas ended up winning the Bo3 with their own late-game comp of Mord mid, Kog/Soraka bot, Olaf top, and Mundo jungle. Who needs initiation, just tank them out. It helped that Olaf kinda eats WW alive top. :smallwink:

[ex cathedra]

And even with ranged people, you have the ridiculous gapcloser that is Headbutt and probably enough damage to outright kill them while they're airborne outta headbutt pulv and your ult to shrug off any slow they're trying to kite you with. And your ult kinda trumps Olaf's ult with a similar duration, in spite of Reckless Swing (though Olaf is as close as it comes to a counter).

You do run into trouble with Tristana and to a lesser extent Ezreal, I imagine. It's frustrating that the best way to peel an Alistar would be another Alistar. :smalltongue: I really do think that Tristana, Poppy, and Olaf are really the only champions that Alistar could potentially find problematic lategame. It's messed up. Alistar's kit is just bonkers, especially with those base stats. Just one of those champions that does everything well. There aren't many 4-role champions left, so that's saying a lot.


I should point out that Dignitas ended up winning the Bo3 with their own late-game comp of Mord mid, Kog/Soraka bot, Olaf top, and Mundo jungle. Who needs initiation, just tank them out. It helped that Olaf kinda eats WW alive top. :smallwink:
I honestly feel that the last two games weren't super interesting to watch, since teams just got out-picked. Watching the plays in game 2 was pretty amusing, though.

[fred dref]

You can probably run a pretty decent top lane Alistar. Sure, he's unlikely to work wonders as far as harassing the enemy laner too much, but he should be pretty tough to get rid of vs a lot of bruisers and he sets up the potential for good ganks if you have a high damage, low CC jungler like Shyvana. The only problem is I feel like you probably have to build a decent bit of survivability early on in order to get him to the point where you can start going pure AP, but that isn't much of problem because an Alistar with some survivability is always very useful.

I may give it a go and report back.

Top lane Alistar worked to a degree until the nerfs to heal. It really hurt his ability to trade, as Headbutt and Pulverize just take too much mana to use them consistently. The main problem with top lane Alistar is that other people scale better with gold and Alistar doesn't need much gold to still be a righteous terror. With that in mind, giving him a solo lane over other champions is often going to result in a weaker overall team.

Also, I don't really see the point of going AP Cow nowadays. His total ratios are competitive with Spirit Fire. Like, you full combo someone, Nasus drops Spirit Fire. Similar amounts of damage.

[Chumbaniya]

This is surprisingly good advice. Ghostblade, specifically, has massive amounts of synergy with Cow. It's like triforce but cheaper, and it has all four sources of multiplicative scaling for AD along with CDR and movespeed, which are fantastic on Alistar. Unlike support-tank Cow, you're only really capable of contributing your full weight to a teamfight when your ult is up, but you should still max out CDR between Ghostblade and Shurelya's/Frozen Heart/Randuin's, etc. Shouldn't be a problem, scales absurdly well into lategame. Tanky AD Alistar is terrifying. :smallfrown:

I hadn't previously thought about Ghostblade seriously but that's a pretty persuasive argument for it. I think the only issue is you're maxed on CDR by the time you get Shurelias and FH - both of which seem very strong on jungle Alistar - if you have the CDR defensive masteries.


Top lane Alistar worked to a degree until the nerfs to heal. It really hurt his ability to trade, as Headbutt and Pulverize just take too much mana to use them consistently. The main problem with top lane Alistar is that other people scale better with gold and Alistar doesn't need much gold to still be a righteous terror. With that in mind, giving him a solo lane over other champions is often going to result in a weaker overall team.

Also, I don't really see the point of going AP Cow nowadays. His total ratios are competitive with Spirit Fire. Like, you full combo someone, Nasus drops Spirit Fire. Similar amounts of damage.

I agree to be honest but it would be nice to try at least. While he's never going to be the most competitive solo lane, I do think he can be decent, but it really does feel like if you're going to have an Alistar on your team you're better putting him in a position with less farm and more roaming potential because he's one of the strongest no-item champions in the game.

[PersonMan]

Also, I don't really see the point of going AP Cow nowadays. His total ratios are competitive with Spirit Fire. Like, you full combo someone, Nasus drops Spirit Fire. Similar amounts of damage.

As someone who's played AP Nasus, I have to say that Spirit Fire can hurt, especially if you expect it to deal almost no damage.

[Dogmantra]

I hadn't previously thought about Ghostblade seriously but that's a pretty persuasive argument for it. I think the only issue is you're maxed on CDR by the time you get Shurelias and FH - both of which seem very strong on jungle Alistar - if you have the CDR defensive masteries.

In which case I'd advise someone else on your team to pick up a Frozen Heart if you need the passive, then grab either a GA or a Randuin's for some more armour. They're all really strong armour items.

[fred dref]

As someone who's played AP Nasus, I have to say that Spirit Fire can hurt, especially if you expect it to deal almost no damage.

As someone who has also played AP Nasus, it really does not deal enough damage to justify AP. Lich Bane is the real winner there, although the ult doesn't hurt.

[PersonMan]

As someone who has also played AP Nasus, it really does not deal enough damage to justify AP. Lich Bane is the real winner there, although the ult doesn't hurt.

As a nationally ranked AP Nasus player someone who has played AP Nasus in a 'call a role, then random in' penta-troll-y game, I have to admit that my build may not have been thought out. See what I did there?

[Eldariel]

So, I finally got my winnings from the tournament. Got up to 10 runepages & Lulu (plus skin bundle) [apparently the bundle was a part of the rewards; I only purchased the runepages]. Feels good!

[Mirrinus]

Hehe...watching the Epik vs. dB Gaming match right now, and I'm ecstatic over Epik picking an all-yordle team. Teemo, Kennen, Corki, Lulu, Amumu.

[ex cathedra]

So, I finally got my winnings from the tournament. Got up to 10 runepages & Lulu (plus skin bundle) [apparently the bundle was a part of the rewards; I only purchased the runepages]. Feels good!

Congrats! I'm seriously glad that those 2300 Elo Dominion queue times paid off. :smalltongue:

[Bunny of Faith]

Congrats! I'm seriously glad that those 2300 Elo Dominion queue times paid off. :smalltongue:

The downside is that it's impossible to play dominion with him in normal queue and not lose like nine out of ten games, because our team (including me!) is bad. :smallfrown:

[Chumbaniya]

In which case I'd advise someone else on your team to pick up a Frozen Heart if you need the passive, then grab either a GA or a Randuin's for some more armour. They're all really strong armour items.

Yeah it'd be nice to actually try out Ghostblade with Randuins. I like Randuins but on someone like Alistar I'll almost always head straight for FH. In a situation where you've got a top lane that wants FH (WW is the obvious one I suppose) then jungle Alistar with Ghostblade and Shurelias and Randuins sounds pretty strong. I definitely like the idea of having a second active speed boost - there are a lot of times I'll want to chase someone so I can knock them back into my team with Alistar and anything that helps that is going to mean MORE KILLS.

[LordShotGun]

Skarner.


What happened? Why did they Buff his mana costs for Q only to practically revert them? I feel kinda bad that they did this since he is the only champion that I payed RP for.

Why not change the damage, cooldown or slow? The mana cost is just crippling.

[Chumbaniya]

Skarner.


What happened? Why did they Buff his mana costs for Q only to practically revert them? I feel kinda bad that they did this since he is the only champion that I payed RP for.

Why not change the damage, cooldown or slow? The mana cost is just crippling.

I don't actually own Skarner, but I generally prefer the base numbers or scaling on abilities to be changed rather than the mana costs if it's purely about balance. If you change the damage or effect done by an ability, you don't affect the playstyle, but if you leave an ability too strong but just make it prohibitively expensive, you change what may have been a fun part about the character (in Skarner's case, keeping Q ticking over is an important mechanic).

[Eldariel]

Congrats! I'm seriously glad that those 2300 Elo Dominion queue times paid off. :smalltongue:

Indeed. It's kind of a frowntown that the only thing you get for being good on Dominion is insane queue times; basically, your reward for performing well is that you're no longer allowed to play.


The downside is that it's impossible to play dominion with him in normal queue and not lose like nine out of ten games, because our team (including me!) is bad. :smallfrown:

Yeah, but at least we have at worst 10 min queues this way :smallbiggrin:

[TechnOkami]

Skarner.


What happened? Why did they Buff his mana costs for Q only to practically revert them? I feel kinda bad that they did this since he is the only champion that I payed RP for.

Why not change the damage, cooldown or slow? The mana cost is just crippling.

My remedy for your ailments good sir!
-RoA
-Mercs
-Triforce
-Wit's
-Frozen Heart
-Atma's

Woo!

[Draken]

Excessive. Philo Stone into Shurelya's plus Sheen/Triforce should be sufficient unless you plan to try and find hidden Evelyns by spamming Q nonstop all over the map.

[TechnOkami]

Excessive. Philo Stone into Shurelya's plus Sheen/Triforce should be sufficient unless you plan to try and find hidden Evelyns by spamming Q nonstop all over the map.

That sounds just about my play style.

I honestly don't like Shureliya's, I just don't. I know I'm missing out on a lot of goodies by not taking it, but I still just don't like it. Anywho, RoA Skarner seems to be my thing with him, so I'll stick to it 'cause it works for me.

[PersonMan]

... you plan to try and find hidden Evelyns by spamming Q nonstop all over the map.

This is a great idea.

[dgnslyr]

Never waste money on pink pots/wards again!

Speaking of stealth, damage doesn't break stealth, does it? Only the application of delayed stealth like Teemo or Eve, if I'm not mistaken?

[TechnOkami]

Never waste money on pink pots/wards again!

Speaking of stealth, damage doesn't break stealth, does it? Only the application of delayed stealth like Teemo or Eve, if I'm not mistaken?

If you are trying to stealth and, say, are getting auto attacked, it will keep you from stealthing until you stop taking damage and don't get hit. Then you'll stealth.

It's amusing how I can kill teemo as Mordekaiser when I know where he's hiding. :smallamused:

[TechnOkami]

Pardon the double post, but since I've found my two roles in league are either mid or solo top, I need to ask for some solo top info.

For me, Junglers who come top have been a huge thorn in my side, and it's become a bit of a roadblock. I've learned fast that wards help me survive ganks, but when or how would you judge is a good time to kill the solo top w/o dying yourself to their Jungler?

[Eldariel]

Pardon the double post, but since I've found my two roles in league are either mid or solo top, I need to ask for some solo top info.

For me, Junglers who come top have been a huge thorn in my side, and it's become a bit of a roadblock. I've learned fast that wards help me survive ganks, but when or how would you judge is a good time to kill the solo top w/o dying yourself to their Jungler?

Eh, you can generally predict the jungler's path. As a rule of thumb, if they haven't ganked by 3:30, they're probably coming for you. If you see them elsewhere or they went to do a buff (you can tell 'cause they lack a key buff and went back to the jungle), that's a good time.

I personally seem to invariably enjoy jungle ganks when I'm toplane and I've lost more than one game to those (since toplane balance is so fragile and if you fall behind on a disadvantageous lane, you're gonna keep falling further and further behind as you can't CS as well). Even avoiding the gank isn't always an option.

[ex cathedra]

Speaking of stealth, damage doesn't break stealth, does it? Only the application of delayed stealth like Teemo or Eve, if I'm not mistaken?

I recently discovered that forced movement breaks Teemo out of stealth, i.e. Rocket Grab/Dredge Line/Explosive Cask/Monsoon/Command: Shockwave. I haven't tested Arcane Smash, Satchel Charge, or Broken Wings, though, but I expect that they do the same. TMYK. But, no, damage does not break stealth in any cases other than the initial stealth delay time or in addition to the application of forced movement.



Skarner.


What happened? Why did they Buff his mana costs for Q only to practically revert them? I feel kinda bad that they did this since he is the only champion that I payed RP for.

Why not change the damage, cooldown or slow? The mana cost is just crippling.
Probably because completely removing his dependence on mana was a bad idea and Skarner had too much going for him when he had zero disadvantages. Dude had strong initiation, absurd level 6 ganks with a low CD, strong pre-6 ganks with a movespeed buff, a perma slow, and tons of damage. I was thrilled when Skarner got nerfed. :smallredface:

[Eldariel]

I recently discovered that forced movement breaks Teemo out of stealth, i.e. Rocket Grab/Dredge Line/Explosive Cask/Monsoon/Command: Shockwave. I haven't tested Arcane Smash, Satchel Charge, or Broken Wings, though, but I expect that they do the same. TMYK. But, no, damage does not break stealth in any cases other than the initial stealth delay time or in addition to the application of forced movement.

Basically every hard CC ability does. I believe Riven's stun works too.

[toasty]

Skarner.


What happened? Why did they Buff his mana costs for Q only to practically revert them? I feel kinda bad that they did this since he is the only champion that I payed RP for.

Why not change the damage, cooldown or slow? The mana cost is just crippling.

The funny thing about skarner is this:
He was released and everyone said he sucked. This was true. His mana costs were absurd, he couldn't jungle.

Then he was buffed and everyone said he was really OP. This is funny because Skarner has the worst performance record of any champion in High Level Tournament Play.

Then he got nerfed because everyone said he was OP (even though... he didn't do much in Tourney matches) and now no one plays him. I feel that skarner might be an okay champion but, honestly, while his initiation is okay, he's a much better counter initiate hero and neither his laning nor his jungling is particularly good (his jungling is probably pretty weak). So no one plays him.

[TechnOkami]

and now no one plays him.

LIES. COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIES.

[PersonMan]

So no one plays him apart from TechnOkami and this one guy who you sometimes see in solo queue.

Perhaps this is more accurate?

[ex cathedra]

I don't see why anyone would actually ever Lane Skarner while WW exists in his current state. He does the same things but better. :smalltongue:

[LordShotGun]

Probably because completely removing his dependence on mana was a bad idea and Skarner had too much going for him when he had zero disadvantages. Dude had strong initiation, absurd level 6 ganks with a low CD, strong pre-6 ganks with a movespeed buff, a perma slow, and tons of damage. I was thrilled when Skarner got nerfed. :smallredface:

Sounds like you just described tryndamere :smallcool:

Zero Mana reliance? Check.
Strong Initiation? Check.
Absurd level 6 ganks with low cooldown? Check.
Strong Pre-six ganks with a gap closer? (gap closer > MS buff) Check
Perma Slow? Kinda/Maybe depending on if you get lucky with mocking shout
Tons of damage? Heck to the yes Check.

Then again, skarner could go double gold per 10 items and do just fine while tyrn needs damage and critical chance which is difficult on a jungler's budget.

[PEACH]

My strategy with Skarner is basically: Always have blue.

If you don't have blue, you either donated your blue too early, or you aren't beating the enemy jungler enough to have both blues going at all times. The fact is that a lot of mids, while they benefit heavily from blue, aren't dependent on it, and Skarner can be dependent on it quite a bit later than other junglers. He makes up for this with some huge damage potential and invasion ability, so I honestly think it's worth it for Skarner to deny his mid blue a bit longer than normal.

You can also just, with cautious play, get by with just a triforce+FH for the flat mana and back after every other big play you're involved in, but that is somewhat less appealing.

Lane Skarner I still don't get, since his mana costs are absolutely crippling in lane even with regen, though against a melee champ he does pretty well (range can really hurt Skarner's 1v1 lane matchups, though).

EDIT: Also, Skarner's jungling is actually very good. It's quick, it's safe, he brings huge damage to fights at all times (granted, not amazing initiation unless you flash in, but if you can get into melee range in any way, they have to burn summoners or die), and he's really good at fighting the enemy jungler. Depending on what they're doing, it's quite possible to just outright steal their red after you grab their blue, though that's tricky. He's also an excellent duelist due to having the most mitigation of anybody besides WW and a good number of strong resistance item picks.

EDIT X2: Also, I don't like gold/5 on jungle Skarner. I pretty much build him as a traditional, old style jungle build: Wriggles, Mercs, Wits end, Triforce, and tanky filler (usually a FH). It works out pretty well, though I suppose going with a regrowth pendent and going for a Philo Stone might be somewhat helpful, though it would decrease his ability to go from blue to the enemy red without dipping dangerously low.

[fred dref]

Sounds like you just described tryndamere :smallcool:

Zero Mana reliance? Check.
Strong Initiation? Check.
Absurd level 6 ganks with low cooldown? Check.
Strong Pre-six ganks with a gap closer? (gap closer > MS buff) Check
Perma Slow? Kinda/Maybe depending on if you get lucky with mocking shout
Tons of damage? Heck to the yes Check.

Then again, skarner could go double gold per 10 items and do just fine while tyrn needs damage and critical chance which is difficult on a jungler's budget.

How the heck does Trynd initiate? Last I checked he has precisely as much initiation as Nasus, which is merely "Press R and run at people". Now Kennen can initiate by pressing R and running at people, that is true, but Kennen actually stuns the enemy and does enormous AoE damage while doing so. Nasus/Trynd/Yi type of people just have to hope the enemy team stays and fights (and even then being focused as Trynd means you'll need to leave the fight fairly quickly).

Also, Trynd has soft CC and the possibility of tower diving for level 6 ganks. Skarner has hard CC and forced movement. Not really a comparison there.

Trynd doesn't deal as much damage as Skarner early on, but his CC is comparable and he does have the gapcloser.

Trynd's slow is not even close to perma and I have no idea where you got that impression.

Again, Trynd does slightly above average damage with autoattacks, but almost zero from abilities. Skarner has abilities that deal significant damage. Early on, Skarner, Udyr, Gangplank, etc. are just going to be dealing more damage.

[toasty]

Perhaps this is more accurate?

Its even less than that. :smalltongue:

[ex cathedra]

Sounds like you just described tryndamere :smallcool:

Zero Mana reliance? Check.
Strong Initiation? Check.
Absurd level 6 ganks with low cooldown? Check.
Strong Pre-six ganks with a gap closer? (gap closer > MS buff) Check
Perma Slow? Kinda/Maybe depending on if you get lucky with mocking shout
Tons of damage? Heck to the yes Check.

Then again, skarner could go double gold per 10 items and do just fine while tyrn needs damage and critical chance which is difficult on a jungler's budget.

Trynd can't actually initiate without eating more CC than both his Cleanse and QSS can handle and being forced to immediately ult. Is not a good plan.

His level 6 ganks aren't really that much better than his level 3/4 ganks and anything that requires tower diving is inherently risky, especially because jungle tryndamere wants smite, flash, and cleanse but can only take two and they're pretty much always going to be smite/flash.

Mocking Shout is just a slow. :smalltongue: It's easy to juke and there's nothing perma about it.


My strategy with Skarner is basically: Always have blue.
Strats that require you to already be winning are weak strats, especially considering that Skarner isn't a hyper-dominant jungler and he can't counterjungle any of like the four most popular junglers.


If you don't have blue, you either donated your blue too early, or you aren't beating the enemy jungler enough to have both blues going at all times. The fact is that a lot of mids, while they benefit heavily from blue, aren't dependent on it, and Skarner can be dependent on it quite a bit later than other junglers. He makes up for this with some huge damage potential and invasion ability, so I honestly think it's worth it for Skarner to deny his mid blue a bit longer than normal.
Main issue is that an AP carry with blue, even if they aren't super blue dependent, offers more to a team than a Skarner with blue in like 90% of situations. Morgana, Ryze, Cassio, Ahri, and Karthus all just do more with blue, whether that means that they're roaming to top/bot or just applying pressure.

[PersonMan]

How the heck does Trynd initiate? Last I checked he has precisely as much initiation as Nasus, which is merely "Press R and run at people".

Tryndamere initiates with merry-go-round + chicken noise. I think they call the second one Mocking Shout in some circles. It depends on positioning, of course, but then again so do Kennen and Skarner.


Also, Trynd has soft CC and the possibility of tower diving for level 6 ganks. Skarner has hard CC and forced movement. Not really a comparison there.

IIRC, Skarner slows and can post-6 towerdive with FEEL MY STING to pull them back. Then again, that's just me and my whole 'point out the exception' thing, so...


Trynd's slow is not even close to perma and I have no idea where you got that impression.

To be honest, it might as well be perma if you die during it. Often merry-go-round + chicken noise is used in a fight that Trynd will win, so the slow can last from when it starts to past the point the fight has been decided. (Of course, with red this can translate into permaslow, but...)

EDIT @ CC: This depends on the skill and coordination of teams. The psychological factor of 'oh my, this man just merry-go-rounded through the wall and chicken noised us! oh, and he's killing [that guy]! let's run!' has to be overcome.

Oh, and any lone initiation will be smashed. Unless Kennen has Hourglass and Rylai's, he will be smashed when he runs in and uses his ulti into a crowd. Same with Skarner, of course - you sort of need a team to follow up with anyone.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...WHAT IS THIS MADNESS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzxjGEPTPZw)

[XiaoTie]

It's a fun kind of madness, but it sucks that they don't have the cow in there D:

[PersonMan]

...WHAT IS THIS MADNESS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzxjGEPTPZw)

Well. Yeah.

Anyone else recognize the Xin voice?

[fred dref]

Tryndamere initiates with merry-go-round + chicken noise. I think they call the second one Mocking Shout in some circles. It depends on positioning, of course, but then again so do Kennen and Skarner.


IIRC, Skarner slows and can post-6 towerdive with FEEL MY STING to pull them back. Then again, that's just me and my whole 'point out the exception' thing, so...



To be honest, it might as well be perma if you die during it. Often merry-go-round + chicken noise is used in a fight that Trynd will win, so the slow can last from when it starts to past the point the fight has been decided. (Of course, with red this can translate into permaslow, but...)

EDIT @ CC: This depends on the skill and coordination of teams. The psychological factor of 'oh my, this man just merry-go-rounded through the wall and chicken noised us! oh, and he's killing [that guy]! let's run!' has to be overcome.

Oh, and any lone initiation will be smashed. Unless Kennen has Hourglass and Rylai's, he will be smashed when he runs in and uses his ulti into a crowd. Same with Skarner, of course - you sort of need a team to follow up with anyone.

When Trynd initiates, the enemy can still fight back and the enemy can still move. Skarner removes one enemy from the fight entirely for a time, and Kennen does the same to everyone in his AoE, while also dealing large amounts of AoE damage. It's honestly like saying Nunu has initiation with his snowball. It's just not nearly on the same category. Sure, you might catch someone who was out of position, but Udyr/Ryze etc. do it just as well or better.

Skarner doesn't even let them get to the tower, is the point. He has actual CC that stops dashes and flashes, Trynd has weak CC that lets the enemy simply walk away.

There are many dudes Trynd is incapable of killing in 4 seconds, especially early. Skarner isn't on a clock as far as permaslowing, he can slow people as reliably as Ashe once he's in range.

The main difference between a Kennen initiate and a Trynd initiate is Kennen jumps in, stuns everyone, and then might die. Kennen in that time has used a full rotation of skills, stopped the enemies from responding at all for a time and done a ton of AoE damage. his team can easily clean up the game is remotely close. When Trynd initiates, he jumps on them, slows them, and then probably gets CCed and attacked. This means he has to pop ult and pray he gets enough crits to spin away again before he just dies. He does a bit of single target damage and did not lock down a single enemy, they could all still attack and use their abilities. Trynd is great and cleaning up and coming in second, but initiating is something he does not do well.

EDIT: **** yeah CholeraNinja.

[Duos]

...WHAT IS THIS MADNESS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzxjGEPTPZw)

I love the Garen stick figure at the end.

JUMP OUT OF BUSH

SILENCE

SPIN

ULT

WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP

[fred dref]

So I just had a game playing with some low level friends of mine. They wanted me to jungle, so I said sure, I'll pick Mundo.

Well.

The enemy jungler was summoner level 6 and was running Nocturne. He only got one Red and 2 Blues. Everything else went to me. End of the game he had 50 farm, I had 180. All his jungle belongs to me. Mundo jungling against people who don't know how to deal with it is absolutely incredibly brutal. I was so far ahead at one point I dueled Nocturne to death, then noticed I still had 3.7k gold to spend. I was so far ahead I could easily kill him with almost 4k gold unspent. I gotta use Mundo whenever I play with those people, it is too much fun going where I please against poor junglers.

[LordShotGun]

I love the Garen stick figure at the end.

JUMP OUT OF BUSH

SILENCE

SPIN

ULT

WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP

Made me laugh. Also, looks like someone high up in the giantitp ranks got bit by the pony bug that has been going around.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

...WHAT IS THIS MADNESS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzxjGEPTPZw)

Oh wow. That is really nice.

[Qwertystop]

I just startd a game as Twitch. At the end of the skin list, there was an exact duplicate Twitch skin, except it was locked. Any idea?

[Delusion]

Well. Yeah.

Anyone else recognize the Xin voice?

*jumps up and down*

I do ^^

[Qaera]

Well. Yeah.

Anyone else recognize the Xin voice?

I'll make a man out of youuuuuuuuu. :smallwink:

~ ♅

[Lix Lorn]

This is the best day.
The forums went down, so I went to play LoL, expecting to have to do two games.
I played on-hit Lulu, as I do recently. We were 4v5 for a good chunk of the game. At one point we were down all inhibs to none and had one tower left. At one point I killed one of them, then died trying to kill super minions.

We won.
http://i40.tinypic.com/9qivyc.png
We won hard. :smallbiggrin:
On-hit-Lulu too stronk

And then, my reward was the Ponyland.

[PEACH]

Strats that require you to already be winning are weak strats, especially considering that Skarner isn't a hyper-dominant jungler and he can't counterjungle any of like the four most popular junglers.

Actually, Skarner can! Amazingly enough, Skarner's slightly longer than melee range Qs, decent base damages, fast clears, and good mitigation can let him trade with enemies fairly well. He may not win in a slugfest, but if you run in with two Qs, and E, a W, and autoattacks, you'll run out with less lost health than the jungler. As far as winning: It doesn't necessarily require you to be winning! It just needs buff control, which is, suprisingly enough, not something people care about as much as they should until very high play. As long as you know about when blue is going to spawn, you can take it before the enemy can do anything about it unless they're actively patrolling/warding it. Yes, at very high levels that might not work, but the majority of play doesn't take place there or even close to it; in hundreds of games, I've legitimately felt threatened by blue wards only a couple of times. Just combine that with map awareness (if bot and mid both go mia as you go for blue, flee) and stealing blue is something that can be done very easily without much improvement on general jungling skills.

As far as not hyper-dominant: He's almost as fast at clearing as Udyr, ganks as well or better, has better damage mitigation, better CC, and similar AoE damage. If Udyr is considered a hyper dominant jungler, the only significant advantage or disadvantage Skarner has over Udyr in general is Skarner's poor mana costs. Skarner is definitely better than you're giving him credit for here; his clears and ganks and durability are all similar in strength to the best junglers (I'm not certain who exactly you qualify in the big four, but assuming three are Udyr, Lee Sin, Shyvana, he has advantages and disadvantages over all of them) to a greater or lesser extent.


Main issue is that an AP carry with blue, even if they aren't super blue dependent, offers more to a team than a Skarner with blue in like 90% of situations. Morgana, Ryze, Cassio, Ahri, and Karthus all just do more with blue, whether that means that they're roaming to top/bot or just applying pressure.

I would agree with you that, for example, Cass with Blue is better than Skarner with blue. However, Cass without blue is probably better than 80% of champions with blue, so that's basically irrelevant. The point is more in the differential, and assuming your mid isn't super blue dependent, the massive multiplicative effect that CDR has on Skarner and the fact that it alleviates his huge mana issues is significantly better than, in the example of Cass giving her ult a lower cooldown and letting her E poke without poison to a greater extent.

EDIT: The point I'm making with the above is that, while giving blue to mid is great and far better than no blue buff, it is quite possible that you get more benefit out of having a Skarner who suddenly went from fairly threatening to "flash or die" range due to CDR and never requiring a trip to base for mana. Whether or not you'd be better off with a different jungler to begin with is a different argument.

[ex cathedra]

two Qs, an E, a W
Last time I checked, taking E in jungle was frowned upon since it offered less than Q/W and further contributed to mana starvation.


As far as winning: It doesn't necessarily require you to be winning! It just needs buff control, which is, suprisingly enough, not something people care about as much as they should until very high play.
Similarly, I think that strats that require you to be playing against bad opponents are weak. You have to be ahead of the enemy team or against bad players to safely and reliably steal buffs as a champion like Skarner against most competitive junglers. It's not exactly hard to know when your buffs are up and to know when they're in danger. Even junglers who don't time objectives in chat know when their buffs will be up.


As far as not hyper-dominant: He's almost as fast at clearing as Udyr, ganks as well or better, has better damage mitigation, better CC, and similar AoE damage.
Udyr has better pre-6 ganks, Skarner has better post-6 ganks. I think you're really understating the amount of damage that Turtle stance mitigates, and they just have different forms of CC. Skarner can suppress one champion and slow perhaps one or two more. That means that he's fairly good at initiating, but Udyr can apply four or five stuns in almost that many seconds in a crowded teamfight. He provides the ability to peel for his carry; slows don't stop gapclosers, after all. Their CC provides for differing roles and isn't too terribly comparable.


If Udyr is considered a hyper dominant jungler, the only significant advantage or disadvantage Skarner has over Udyr in general is Skarner's poor mana costs.
Udyr can start with any item at any camp and do well and he has zero blue reliance, nor does he rely on early mana itemization. Also, Udyr has a propensity to start boots+3 and Skarner kind of... never does that.


I'm not certain who exactly you qualify in the big four, but assuming three are Udyr, Lee Sin, Shyvana, he has advantages and disadvantages over all of them
THE ONLY JUNGLE TIER LIST THAT MATTERS:
God Tier: Lee Singah
Tier 1: Mundo (Mister "I was probably better than Shyvana and then she received a giant nerf")
Tier 2: Udyr, Shyvana (Miss "people thought I was OP because they didn't know how to counterjungle since the jungle rework")
obv not totally serious but I don't wanna make a real one and i'm just trying to up my clarity


I would agree with you that, for example, Cass with Blue is better than Skarner with blue. However, Cass without blue is probably better than 80% of champions with blue, so that's basically irrelevant. The point is more in the differential, and assuming your mid isn't super blue dependent, the massive multiplicative effect that CDR has on Skarner and the fact that it alleviates his huge mana issues is significantly better than, in the example of Cass giving her ult a lower cooldown and letting her E poke without poison to a greater extent.
You see, giving blue buff to Skarner gives you the potential to win additional lanes via gank pressure, but in fact that potential already exists because it's not as if Skarner can't ult without blue. Whereas it's pretty much impossible for Cassio to lose lane with basic items and blue buff and she gains the potential to shove mid and roam to a sidelane or simply shove mid and kill the jungler whenever they try to stop you.

Anyways, putting your team in the position where they have to choose between these options is bad play so you should feel bad for picking Skarner and pick a cool champion instead of Scorpinox or w/e you want to call that Rise of Immmortals reject. :smallamused:

[LordShotGun]

This whole argument is what makes me mad about skarner. Now, because all your points are valid about skarner, why did they nerf him so hard back into obscurity? If skarner was on par with udyr before mana nerfs and worthless after them...WTF?

Was it because of the crys of OP? Skarner was never played before the mana cost buff so it was like having an entire new champion added to the game and should have been given the development cycle to allow people to adjust to him.

I am just mad/sad that such a unique champion was elevated to greatness after one change and reverted to uselessness with one reversion.

[Math_Mage]

Skarner is good if you're running, like, Vlad/Kennen solos. Then you can just pick up blue and do what you like. Donating blue makes him sad.

[ex cathedra]

Skarner is good if you're running, like, Vlad/Kennen solos. Then you can just pick up blue and do what you like. Donating blue makes him sad.

Yeah, but wouldn't you rather have Nocturne? :smalltongue:

[LordShotGun]

Skarner is good if you're running, like, Vlad/Kennen solos. Then you can just pick up blue and do what you like. Donating blue makes him sad.

Problem is vlad and kennen are usually tops rather then mids. You would be better off picking skarner with a mord calling mid.

[ex cathedra]

Vlad and Kennen are both viable mids, though, especially Vlad. Kennen just goes top because he has massively favorable matchups against almost every common top laner, but he does just fine mid (has issues with champions onto which he can't aggress, which are much more common mid. See: Ryze, Ahri, Morgana). Vlad (and to a lesser extent Ahri and Ryze) are just copying him and going top lane for good matchups that they can't always get mid.

Edit: Also, I'd rather have Kennen with blue buff and pretty much any other jungler even if my solo lanes were both considered to be blue independent. There's not a mid laner in the game that doesn't benefit from blue. The nature of CDR on inherently ability-focused champions means that it's always going to be strong, and in this example blue buff Kennen is massively more threatening than normal Kennen. More CDR and more energy = more DPS and more stuns = even more energy to funnel into your new CDR.

[Qaera]

Man, I just had a game, I was Lux mid and the enemy Ryze told me he mained Lux and I shouldn't disappoint him. We ended up bantering throughout the game and complimenting one another on plays. Friended at the Victory screen.

WHAT HAPPENED WHAT IS GOING ON

~ ♅

[fred dref]

You know, this thread title almost goes with the new site design.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Skarner is fine, just nobody plays him because of other champs. It's like jarvan. Jarvan is a strong jungler still, but nobody plays him. Why? Who knows, just how it is.

Also, I think alistair is OP. Best support, strong jungle, I feel as if I could get to platinum playing nothing but ali.

[Math_Mage]

Skarner is fine, just nobody plays him because of other champs. It's like jarvan. Jarvan is a strong jungler still, but nobody plays him. Why? Who knows, just how it is.

Also, I think alistair is OP. Best support, strong jungle, I feel as if I could get to platinum playing nothing but ali.

I respectfully cast my 'best support' vote to Nunu. But my sample size is fairly small.

[ex cathedra]

Best support is going a bit far. There are too many archetypes for that to really be a fair description for any of the supports, to be honest. He can't disengage/poke as well as Janna, he can't sustain/poke as well as Soraka, and he can't be as aggressive as Leona. He does a lot of things fairly well, but that doesn't work for every comp.

Also, that's silly. You ask why no one plays Jarvan and then you mention Alistar in the same post.

[Misery Esquire]

...WHAT IS THIS MADNESS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzxjGEPTPZw)

Walked too close to a bush, bro.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Okay, maybe not best but I think he is extremely good. Also, I still play Jarvan. His ult is a ton of fun.

Also, I too like nunu, but I feel he is much less versatile and is countered much more easily. I think most supports would not mind going up against nunu. Pretty much any bot lane ever has a way to stop his ult.