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Zelkon
2012-03-27, 07:33 AM
Hi everybody! I didn't know if this was the right place to post, but it seems appropreate. I am in the middle of designing an RPG called holydoom. Currently, we are throwing around ideas and have a good picture of what we want to happen, but no idea how to make it happen. Here (http://www.holydoom.weebly.com) is a link to the website. Most of the activity takes place on the blog, called Updates (http://holydoom.weebly.com/updates). I would love for people to take a look and tell me what you think in the comments on the blog, the answer forum (http://holydoom.weebly.com/contact-us), or this thread. Also, I recently started a forum (http://holydoom.freeforums.org) like GiantitP for discussion, but it is not up and running quite yet. My email is [email protected]; feel free to send questions, comments, or suggestions to that.

Siegel
2012-03-27, 07:37 AM
What? What is your game about?
How? How is your game about that? // What mechanics encourage that type of topic
What? What behaviors does it reward or encourage in order to fulfill the How?

alternatively

What is this game about?
What do the characters do?
What do the players do?

Xuc Xac
2012-03-27, 07:57 AM
Answer the "Power 19":

1.) What is your game about?

2.) What do the characters do?

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?

4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?

6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?

8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?

9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)

10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?

11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?

12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?

13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?

15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?

17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can’t, don’t, or won’t?

18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?

19.) Who is your target audience?

Zelkon
2012-03-28, 11:09 PM
1.) What is your game about?
Holydoom is about a outbreak of dangerous particles that can also be used as an energy source, and it has started a war between angels and demons.
2.) What do the characters do?
The characters do the stuff standard for adventurers: kill monsters, get treasure, save the world, etc. However, the comedic bent of the game encourages over the top thinking and ridiculously creative (and vice versa)
3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?
The GM, called the wiseguy, does the usual stuff a GM does: rules master, **world creator, referee, controller of the monsters, etc. He is encouraged to run the game using the rule of cool and make the game fun for the players by letting them do amazing stunts and feats. Players are encouraged to do ridiculous/hilarious/just plain fun things, and metagaming and breaking the 4th wall are not always bad things to do.
4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
As a part of the game is about gathering particles of holydoom, the setting has a backstory about how holydoom came to be, and how it is used. It is also made with comedy in mind, which is a key part of the game.
5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?
Well, all level one characters are built as though they were infused with holydoom in a life changing encounter, and abilities are built with flavor and coolness first, with sometimes comedic effects or names.
6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?
Having fun no matter what and getting along with other people is obviously rewarded by better gameplay overall, and being a jerk makes the game less fun. I hope to find a way to let the jerk learn for himself what he is doing wrong by the mechanics always advocating equal spotlight and teamwork.*
7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
As this system is designed around having fun however you want it and with comedy in mind, a well-natures, funny person with an easygoing personality will probably get the most out of the game.
8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?
I do not understand the question:
9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)
This game has a target audience: the fun loving, freeform type of gamer. I also hope to bring new players in to the genre. An engaging, cinematic story that is remembered equally as a movie in your head as much as a group of people talking in elvish and rolling dice. The story and the over-the-top feel should keep casual gamers and hardcore fans looking for a lighter load coming back for more.
10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?
The exact mechanics are unknown, but will reinforce the cinematic and silly feel of the game.
11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?
Well, hopefully abilities will be more cinematic that "I hit it with my sword," and perhaps critical successes would produce a dramatic result like a movie. Beyond that, I do not know.*
12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?
Characters gain levels and skill points with those levels, allowing for large amounts of customization and a robust multiclassing system.
13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
Players grow stronger less in their ability to hit and dodge stuff, and more in their ability to do cool things.
14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?
Players should feel like they are enacting a story, playing a game, and watching a movie. All at the same time.
15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?
The designing of special abilities pretty much makes all my design goals easier to achieve, so that's a big priority. Multiclassing should be robust and easy IMO, and I was thinking of it having its own little handbook.*
16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
The two points from question 15, actually. ;D.
17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can’t, don’t, or won’t?
Comedy built straight into the system. I have seen games focused on comedy, but never expanded beyond the core rules, which are slim at best. This also has warriors doing impossible feats, rouges actually bending shadows around them, etc. Because of holydoom, I don't have to care as much about reality *(or verisimilitude for the fancy).
18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?
A kick starter to get it started, then an online store (drive thru RPG is quite viable, too) until I can get in into a local game store. From there, I hope for it to slowly spread to wherever I can get it.*
19.) Who is your target audience?
*The fun loving, freeform type of gamer (yep, straight from a couple of questions ago). They are the type of people who want to tell a good story, to role play AND fight, to interact with others in the friendliest manner as possible. And to be over-the-top ridiculous and insane, of course!

erikun
2012-03-28, 11:46 PM
8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?
I do not understand the question:
I believe the question means "Who is responsible for what parts of the gaming session, between the narrator and the player?"

That is, who creates the setting? Who creates the character? Who creates the NPCs? Who directs the story? Who creates the obstacles? Who decides what the PCs encounter? These questions include both who is primarily doing so, and to what influence others have in modifying the decision.

The answers to these questions are not as self-evident as D&D might make them out to be.



Other than that, I've mostly heard two responses from you. "I want a game of D&D + Exalted," and "Holydoom is important to the setting and perhaps mechanics." That isn't a bad start, but there really isn't much there.

The idea behind Holydoom (Hollydoom?) is somewhat interesting. What exactly is it? How is it gathered? Is it something like dramatic tension? I do like systems where otherwise vague concepts like "experience" can be explained in-setting, and Holydoom does offer one way of doing so. Think of other methods of using Holydoom as well - if a character can trade in Holydoom for "Holydoom abilities", then perhaps they could (temporarily) expend their gathered Holydoom for dice roll bonuses?

It sounds like you want a point-buy game rather than a class-based game. No, really. You have basic people making use of "Holydoom abilities" rather than getting static bonuses as they increase in level. It would probably be better to just have point-value abilities that anyone could pick up whenever they could afford it, rather than limiting some to 'higher level'.

What is the baseline going to be? Are they going to be average joes with wacky abilities, or superheroes of the comical bend? Something else? The choice would decide what kinds of adventures the game uses.

Zelkon
2012-03-29, 09:03 AM
As I only have experience with D&D, it is bound to sound a bit like it before testing occurs. I do not have solid mechanics yet, so it could be completely different. Could you inform me about Exalted? I do not know the mechanics.

My answer to question 8 is the GM makes the setting (or interprets one available) and narrates the story. The players react to the things that happen, and the GM reacts to what they do, just like D&D, GURPS, and a lot of other games. However, I see on a lot of games, particularly PbP, the GM might say, "OK, I got the basic setting, but feel free to make towns and places, as well as NPCs that have something to do with you (ex. rival from fighter school, to be cliché.)

I really have not developed the mechanics much, but I do have a good picture of what I want the classes to do. I'm not comfortable with designing a classless system, and my view of the game requires classes. Also, while one fighter might be an average Joe who found a stash of holydoom and decided to put his newfound powers to use, or a world renowned martial artist looking to further his combat prowess. Overall, silly superheroes and wacky Joes can both fulfill the same job, as long as they have a motivation to fight. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the subject of holydoom, I'm going to point you to the story (http://holydoom.weebly.com/story) page. To summarize, it is the fusion of two particles (practically the opposite of splitting the atom), one of pure good, and one of utter evil, yet it is both at the same time. It can be mined, where it is found in clusters and is very dangerous (leading to the invention of deathdudes), or it can be gathered in much smaller amounts at places where it has affected (think the spellplague mixed with a nuclear bomb). Also, killing a being who is powered by holydoom (like the heroes) can allow the killer to collect the leftover particles. It might also be offered as ransom for a particularly nefarious villain or as a reward from a tournament. The characters are considered lucky to have survived their encounter with raw holydoom, and would probably have their own wikipedia page were it today. Holydoom is dangerous unrefined and even "tamed" holydoom can blow up the surrounding mile if you drop it from more than a few inches up.

As a final note, I like your idea of getting a bonus for temporarily expending holydoom, but I had though it should be more dramatic than a simple bonus to hit, and more risky, too. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Xuc Xac
2012-03-29, 10:10 AM
As I only have experience with D&D

Stop right there. Before you try to invent the wheel, maybe you should take a look at all the planes, trains, and automobiles that are available today.

Before you try to make an RPG, read at least 10 different existing RPGs from cover to cover and play at least 5 different games. Different editions of the same game only count as one. D&D doesn't count at all. That's not even step 1 of designing an RPG: it's Step 0.

If you don't do this, you'll just make a D&D setting with some house rules.

Siegel
2012-03-29, 12:04 PM
Things to recomend since they do things really differently

(n)WoD/Exalted
Inspectres
Lady Blackbird
FATE/Dresden Files
Burning Wheel / Mouse Guard (better both of them)
Shadowrun
Indie RPG of your choice Montsegour 1244 or Penny for my thoughts could be examples
WUSHU
Apocalypse World
Freemarket / Prime Time Adventures
Anima beyond fantasy
Savage Worlds

endoperez
2012-03-29, 12:34 PM
Ars Magica 4th Edition is free in some e-shop (only requires registration IIRC), and also does things very differently.

erikun
2012-03-29, 12:53 PM
As I only have experience with D&D, it is bound to sound a bit like it before testing occurs. I do not have solid mechanics yet, so it could be completely different. Could you inform me about Exalted? I do not know the mechanics.
Exalted is a pretty big system full of ridiculously powerful characters using a wide range of powers - no, seriously, starting characters are literal gods - but the big thing that sticks out for me is the Stunts system. Basically, the more original, interesting, or over-the-top a described action is, the more the Storyteller (GM) is encouraged to grant bonuses. It encourages players to come up with strange and different choices for their actions, which seems to be what you are looking for.


That said, I'm not going to recommend too much. Your game description sounds like it would be a very good fit as a setting for Mutants and Masterminds. No, really, give the system a try and see how well it works with your idea. Even if it isn't exactly what you want, the system probably covers 90% of what you are looking for and you could homebrew the rest.

kyoryu
2012-03-29, 03:22 PM
Things to recomend since they do things really differently



I'd add either GURPS or Hero System to that list.

Siegel
2012-03-29, 03:26 PM
and Rolemaster...

no seriously, you should check out The One Ring too. i still need to do that...

eggs
2012-03-29, 04:26 PM
8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?
I do not understand the question:
It's rather literal. Basically it's looking at who's narrating events, and how reflective in the game fiction those narrations are. In a broad sense, it's about who controls the game narrative, and how they do it.

Just to illustrate what it's talking about:

In D&D and many older games, the DM describes an environment and players respond to it by suggesting their characters' actions. If the DM believes something is farfetched, he can veto it. Once a player successfully proposes a viable course of action, the DM narrates its result. In this scenario, almost all responsibility for narration is on the DM (the exception being the suggestions of character actions), and the DM has full credibility - he both adjudicates the players' actions and his own; what the DM says happens is what happens.

Giving the DM full (or close) control over narration is a hallmark of older games. In many newer systems, these responsibilities are shared between all players.

One example is InSpectres - a somewhat lighthearted game about supernatural mysteries (think Ghostbusters or Men In Black). The core mechanic in InSpectres is a die roll that doesn't just determine success/failure in the standard RPG model - it determines how much narrative control the player has in a scenario and what sorts of complications are introduced. This means that even though the GM still has the most influence over the narrative, the other players can introduce details and even complete plot directions outside the behaviors of their own characters (if a player's narration introduces a mummy into the story, there's a mummy in the story). There are some limits which still give the GM primary responsibility for narration, and which can check the players' credibility if their narration swings too wildly from the established plotline.

One of the most common divides in recent games is one where the GM has primary control of the narrative - setting scenes, describing situations, and having those descriptions stick. But players are allowed to "buy" minor moments of game narration with some sort of metagame currency (action points/fate points/whatever your game calls them). These purchases allow them to introduce a new character or plot element, but are still generally subject to GM approval (meaning they don't have full credibility).

But if your game doesn't have a GM, the question is going to be more about the credibility of one player's statement. (eg. if Joe asserts there's a Flying Space Gorilla in the scene, can this be vetoed or altered by players who aren't really digging the idea of Flying Space Gorillas in their game?)

Hiro Protagonest
2012-03-29, 04:42 PM
Exalted is a pretty big system full of ridiculously powerful characters using a wide range of powers - no, seriously, starting characters are literal gods - but the big thing that sticks out for me is the Stunts system. Basically, the more original, interesting, or over-the-top a described action is, the more the Storyteller (GM) is encouraged to grant bonuses. It encourages players to come up with strange and different choices for their actions, which seems to be what you are looking for.

Not right on the starting power level. Yes, you're powerful. And live for about 3000 years. And can eventually rewrite the laws of reality. But the starting Solars/Infernals/Abyssals/Lunars can be like a cross between Ezio and Beowulf, Einstein and Dumbledore, or Hitler and Jesus (heck, it borrows inspiration from the Bible). Dragon-Blooded are much weaker and only live about 300 years, although you can still be Ezio, Aang, or David (the guy that fought Goliath).

A good introduction is to read Keychains of Creation (http://keychain.patternspider.net/).

Talakeal
2012-03-29, 08:25 PM
Stop right there. Before you try to invent the wheel, maybe you should take a look at all the planes, trains, and automobiles that are available today.

Before you try to make an RPG, read at least 10 different existing RPGs from cover to cover and play at least 5 different games. Different editions of the same game only count as one. D&D doesn't count at all. That's not even step 1 of designing an RPG: it's Step 0.

If you don't do this, you'll just make a D&D setting with some house rules.

I don't mean to poop on your ideas, because it is sound in theory, but I don't know if it is practical.

Where do you live that playing five different games is a realistic possibility? I am lucky to find a game of D&D around here, let alone something more exotic, and I don't think I have seriously played 5 games in my whole life, and I certainly haven't played 10 for even a single session (unless you count the various editions of D&D or different flavors of WoD as separate games).

As for reading books, yeah, you probably should read more. But honestly, once you know what you like, reading more books doesn't help. I have probably read 20 different RPG rule systems, but I can honestly say less than half gave me any new insight into the hobby or ideas for my own games.

Personally I find any game written in the last 10 years to be pretty worthless. They are all so gimmicky that they don't really help in what I am going for. I am a pretty hardcore role-player, and I find that new games are full of gimmicks, narrative tools, or disassociated mechanics that take only serve to pull me out of character.

Fatebreaker
2012-03-30, 03:31 AM
Play other games. Play a lot of games. Play several old games with different styles of characters. Play several new games with the same style of character. Play video games. Play tabletop games. Play board games. Play card games. Play every kind of game you can get your hands on.

Why?

Because a greater understanding of how games relate to their players is vital if you don't want your success to be accidental. Different games (and different gaming mediums) use different techniques to do so, or place different values on different elements. Learning to use these elements to achieve your ends is a valuable skill.

Oh, yeah. Watch these guys. (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits) They talk about video games, but a fair number of their episodes do so in such a broad way that it's helpful advice for a game designer of most any stripe. They understand that mechanics influence play, and that the best mechanics support both the style of play you're striving to create and the core concepts of your game. It's good stuff.


As for reading books, yeah, you probably should read more. But honestly, once you know what you like, reading more books doesn't help. I have probably read 20 different RPG rule systems, but I can honestly say less than half gave me any new insight into the hobby or ideas for my own games.

Personally I find any game written in the last 10 years to be pretty worthless. They are all so gimmicky that they don't really help in what I am going for. I am a pretty hardcore role-player, and I find that new games are full of gimmicks, narrative tools, or disassociated mechanics that take only serve to pull me out of character.

Talakeal, this actually saddens me. There have been some pretty cool games in the past decade. If nothing else, newer editions of older games have some really interesting ideas -- and learning why game designers are changing how or why they do what they do is a field worth studying.

Especially if, like our friend Zelkon here, you're trying to make your own game.

You don't have to like new games. But somebody does, because some of those new games are making a lot of money. It's worth learning why.

Talakeal
2012-03-30, 04:06 AM
Talakeal, this actually saddens me. There have been some pretty cool games in the past decade. If nothing else, newer editions of older games have some really interesting ideas -- and learning why game designers are changing how or why they do what they do is a field worth studying.

Especially if, like our friend Zelkon here, you're trying to make your own game.

You don't have to like new games. But somebody does, because some of those new games are making a lot of money. It's worth learning why.

I have given a couple of new games a chance, it was just a miserable experience for everyone involved. I haven't seen one innovation that helps with role-playing. Now, maybe if you are frustrated with or bored with the traditional player / DM mechanic you might want something new, but I LIKE that dynamic, and if I create a game contrary to my own personal tastes for the purpose of pandering to a group I don't agree with then what I come up with is not going to be genuine or made with love.

Take this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtUgtX3ncTk

Every single one of the RPGs they discuss has some gimmick that seems to destroy the ability to get into character and play a role (except for the space station game whose name escapes me, that sounds like it has plenty of RP potential, but sounds like it would end up in such a dark and depraved place that I don't think I would be comfortable playing it much).

If you can recommend a good game I would love to read it (I would say play it, but that would require me to find a group, which as I said is just about impossible), but I don't have very high hopes for anything. Every time I have tried a recent game it has gone very poorly. Fourth edition D&D always ends with me bored out of my mind, and the one time I tried Spirit of the Century the session literally ended with me in tears and the rest of the group telling me not to bother coming back.

Riddle of Steel seemed ok from a mechanics perspective, although the way character creation and your spiritual attributes works in that game puts RPing and optimizing in direct conflict, but the grim-dark setting is just too depressing for me to enjoy. Same with Dark Heresy.

Also, are you sure those games are making a lot of money? I was under the impression that 4th ed D&D was failing misereably, and that Indy game designers are lucky to break even doing it, let alone making a living off it.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant, but I had been wanting to say some of that for a while. I am genuinly curious what the appeal of these games is, and if you can explain it to me, or recommend a good new game, then I would love to hear about. As you said, it is a field worth studying.

erikun
2012-03-30, 05:19 AM
Also, are you sure those games are making a lot of money? I was under the impression that 4th ed D&D was failing misereably, and that Indy game designers are lucky to break even doing it, let alone making a living off it.
D&D4 is most definitely making money, as is Shadowrun, Pathfinder, WoD, and most other RPGs with more than one iteration. They wouldn't be in business otherwise, and this is especially true for smaller ones, who don't have a large corporation behind them to pay the bill if they don't have a good month.

This doesn't mean they're doing well, especially compared to D&D3's most productive well. But they aren't bankrupt or walking away with negative earnings, either.


If you can recommend a good game I would love to read it (I would say play it, but that would require me to find a group, which as I said is just about impossible), but I don't have very high hopes for anything.
Yeah, I will admit that most RPGs out there are either d20 clones, highly focused on a particular mechanic, or just poor. It's Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law) all over again, the difference being is that you're seeing almost the entire body of RPGs when it applies.


One system I will recommend is Burning Wheel. Somewhat original ideas: Resolution of dice rolls is not a success/failure result, but a success/success with complications result. Beliefs, as motivators for the character and so player-determined methods to grant mechanical benefits. Instincts, or actions that the character will do automatically in a situation. "Racial" Nature, or things that a particular race is well-known for, which can strongly influence how a character acts (with a high Nature) or very weakly influence (with a low Nature). There are also some other parts of the system, like character creation/Lifepaths, skills progression, racial magic, and how the GM treats tests that just feel well thought out. You can find out a bit more about the system at their website (http://www.burningwheel.com/).

Mouse Guard is basically Burning Wheel, but simplified a bit and changed in a few places. There are no Lifepaths or racial magic, for example, and everyone's Nature is that of a mouse.

Eclipse Phase is a nice new system that reminds me a lot of Shadowrun in theme. Honestly, I didn't really care for it that much when creating a character (too many randomly high numbers to various abilities) but the concepts inside about interplanetary factions, swapping bodies, and the implications of storing minds on a digital format made for some very interesting reading. They have their own website as well (http://eclipsephase.com/).


...And that's mostly it, really. There really are a large number of D&D clones, and a lot of the rest of the new systems try to stand out by emphasizing a new idea or particular mechanic. I mean, I like Faery's Tale (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12347.phtml), but I won't pretend like the mechanics are anything new and original.


[Edit]
I'll also mention Mutants & Masterminds, as it is basically the level-based d20 System but with a point-buy character/"class" creation. It does a good job of keeping the plus side of having a level-based system (predictable power level, no absurd 1st-level minmaxing) while still retaining a lot of the flexibility of a point-buy skill system. And that is pretty much the entire concept behind it, as well.

Talakeal
2012-03-30, 05:30 AM
D&D4 is most definitely making money, as is Shadowrun, Pathfinder, WoD, and most other RPGs with more than one iteration. They wouldn't be in business otherwise, and this is especially true for smaller ones, who don't have a large corporation behind them to pay the bill if they don't have a good month.

This doesn't mean they're doing well, especially compared to D&D3's most productive well. But they aren't bankrupt or walking away with negative earnings, either.



I said a lot of money, obviously those that are still in print are making SOME money. Still, it was my understanding that 4E is going out of print next year and WoD is now ebook only. Pathfinder, WoD, and Shadowrun aren't exactly new games either, they are just new editions of games from 1990-2000.



One system I will recommend is Burning Wheel. Somewhat original ideas: Resolution of dice rolls is not a success/failure result, but a success/success with complications result. Beliefs, as motivators for the character and so player-determined methods to grant mechanical benefits. Instincts, or actions that the character will do automatically in a situation. "Racial" Nature, or things that a particular race is well-known for, which can strongly influence how a character acts (with a high Nature) or very weakly influence (with a low Nature). There are also some other parts of the system, like character creation/Lifepaths, skills progression, racial magic, and how the GM treats tests that just feel well thought out. You can find out a bit more about the system at their website (http://www.burningwheel.com/).


I have heard a lot of people speak well of Burning Wheel, but I have yet to actually see a copy, none of the stores in my area carry it.

It doesn't sound like my cup of tea though. It seems to be full of player influence over the setting and the inability to affect the world through in character decisions, two of the things most likely to break my immersion in the game. But that is second hand knowledge and might be false.

Edit: A quick glance at the web page for Burning Wheel told me nothing except that conflicts are resolved with a bunch of d6. Never heard of Eclipse Phase before, and the web page doesn't say much about the mechanics, but what there is doesn't turn me off. The setting looks interesting, but not one that I can see myself wanting to play in.

erikun
2012-03-30, 05:44 AM
I have heard a lot of people speak well of Burning Wheel, but I have yet to actually see a copy, none of the stores in my area carry it.

It doesn't sound like my cup of tea though. It seems to be full of player influence over the setting and the inability to affect the world through in character decisions, two of the things most likely to break my immersion in the game. But that is second hand knowledge and might be false.
I'm not sure how the player influence is much different than what you would expect to see in something like D&D. Players are encouraged to create stuff related to their character, such as NPC contacts, but I've seen exactly the same idea in something like World of Darkness. The book does recommend players coming up with setting-related material about their characters, but mostly in the sense of backstory.

The only thing I can think of with 'inability to affect the world' is that failing a roll with superficially allow the character to succeed, but place a different obstacle in their path - the "succeed with complications" result. There are ways around such problems (namely trying a more likely to succeed method) but I haven't found them restricting the character's ability to influence the world any more than in D&D or Shadowrun.

At least, these have been my impression about the system. I'm not trying to change your mind - it sounds like D&D has fit a comfortable niche for you - but just pointing out what I've seen with Burning Wheel.

Talakeal
2012-03-30, 05:56 AM
As I said, I have never played or read Burning Wheel, just going be second hand information.

I have heard people say that nothing about your character matters unless you have purchased the advantage. So if your character always carries a lighter, you can't use it to start a fire and get out of a situation unless you paid for the "lighter" advantage.

I have also heard people say that the DM doesn't have any sort of power over the players, and if you wanted to you could play without a DM, which implies to me some sort of FATE esque narrative control on the part of the players.

These assumptions could both be totally wrong, I am just going by word of mouth.

As for D&D filling a niche I like, I don't really like D&D from either a thematic or mechanical value, but I will admit 3.5 is better than most. I have played D&D 2-3.5, Shadowrun, WoD of many types, Exalted, Riddle of Steel, WHFRP, Inquisitor, Hackmaster, Star Wars, and GURPS. All follow more or less the same theme "Rules attempt to simulate a fictional world in a more or less consistent style, DM sets the scene and drives the narrative, players assume the role of a PC and dictate their actions to accomplish a goal." Every recent RPG I have played has grossly violated one of these tenets, and done so in a way that is detrimental to getting into character.
Honestly my favorite published games are mortal games of WoD, the mechanics seem designed to facilitate RP and character generation rather than restrict them.

erikun
2012-03-30, 06:22 AM
Edit: A quick glance at the web page for Burning Wheel told me nothing except that conflicts are resolved with a bunch of d6. Never heard of Eclipse Phase before, and the web page doesn't say much about the mechanics, but what there is doesn't turn me off. The setting looks interesting, but not one that I can see myself wanting to play in.
Burning Wheel is a skill-based d6 dice-pool system, where skills progress by the number of successes and failures at using the skill. About the biggest other factor is the character's Nature, which can be applied to dice rolls but can also give penalities to others. Dwarves are resilient but miserly, for example. A character with a high dwarven Nature can apply it to tests of endurance, but that large nature will become a problem when testing to overcome greed. A character with a low dwarven Nature is readily in control of their impulses, but can't tap into that dwarven instinct to really push themselves futher - it is a lot like WoD willpower.

Eclipse Phase is a d% skill-based system, with both Aptitudes and Skills. (Basically Ability Score Bonuses and Skill Ranks from D&D3.) As I mentioned before, one problem I had when building a character was that a lot of skills ended up in the +35 to +65 range for starting characters, which I felt was somewhat disappointing for a d% system. Characters have the ability to switch physical bodies, which does modify Aptitudes and some physical features built into the specific body.


I have heard people say that nothing about your character matters unless you have purchased the advantage. So if your character always carries a lighter, you can't use it to start a fire and get out of a situation unless you paid for the "lighter" advantage.

I have also heard people say that the DM doesn't have any sort of power over the players, and if you wanted to you could play without a DM, which implies to me some sort of FATE esque narrative control on the part of the players.
Strange, that does not seem to have been my experience. Yes, the game does encourage the GM to listen to players and try to fit their concepts in the story, but no more than a game like Exalted.

It may not be the kind of game you are interested in, though, especially if you're looking for one where the GM crafts a world and the players have no influence over, beyond actions their characters take.

Zelkon
2012-03-30, 08:05 AM
Hey guys, try to keep the thread on-topic.
I operate on a low budget (read: none), so does anyone know what games have lite versions that I can try out to get the feel. I am familiar with D&D 3.5, 4e, and AD&D from Castles and Crusades. I also read through the Legend rulebook, which has influenced my direction. I also funded Quantum RPG on kickstarter and will get the rulebook for that soon. I also read through GURPS lite.

EccentricCircle
2012-03-30, 04:38 PM
It sounds like an interesting idea. Building a cool and compelling world is an important place to start.
You should think quite carefully about why you want to make an RPG. If the answer is; to create a game where you can play a specific type of adventure then you might be able to find a system that already something similar and adapt it saving a lot of work. if the answer is: to make lots of money as a game designer... then you might be disapointed, as that rarely happens with Indy games.

For an RPG to be commercially successful it kind of needs to be

a) Produced by a successful company and built on an established brand such as D&D, World of Darkness etc. so that there is already a well established fan base.

b) Built to support an already established setting such as Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings, so that there is already a well established fan base.

c) Really original and inovative.

C) is the only one of the three that most people can practically aim for, so thats what most indy developers try to do. sometimes it works sometimes it produces games which feel a bit "gimmicky" as has been discussed by previous posters. having a good knowledge of this sort of game, which ones work, which ones don't and why is clearly very important. As you will be trying to build a fan base from the ground up.
think about the kind of games you like to play and why you like to play them. when writing your game think "Why would I want to play this", and consider how to get those points across to like minded people, To Make your game jump out and grab them, and make them think. "Wow, I really want to play this!"

Can you sum up what your game is about in a single sentance, capturing the essance of the game:

Deep within a Dungeon, Heroes battle terrible monsters and lethal traps to claim a great reward...
In a bleak world, powerful supernatural factions vie for power, while struggling with the horror of their own existance...
Can you retain your sanity and your life after coming face to face with Things That Man Was Not Meant to Know...
In the Grim Darkness of the far future, There is only War.


Many games try to come up with a really inovative and original rules system. certianly this can work, but whether it does or not can be somewhat serendipitous. I would try to make the setting as compelling and imersive as possible, Building upon a solid rules foundation which you know works. The Rules need to support and encourage the type of game you want to run, whether through action points to let your players reshape reality or some other means, but a nifty resolution mechanic is unlikely to sell your game to the majority of people. Whereas a well thought out world might.

I hope some of that helps, above all else Good Luck. Writing a game from the ground up is a long and sometimes frustrating process, so don't expect quick results. But it is extremely fun and its great to sit down with something that you've built and roll up characters, go on adventures and tell stories.

If your reason for writing a Roleplaying game is: To one day be able to play a game that You created. then you are already on the right track!

erikun
2012-03-30, 10:27 PM
I can recommend d20 Modern (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern) and its SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd). The system has a lot of what you are looking for: D&D3 base, base classes that multiclass well, "advanced" classes that fit fantasy and fictional roles, and it's free. It's likely not as good as Mutants & Masterminds at what you are looking for, but I could be wrong.

I will also mention Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/goodies/fudge-files/core/FUDGE-1995-Edition-(PDF)/) / Fate (http://www.faterpg.com/resources/) for a considerably different system that is also free.


Honestly though, it sounds more like you have a good idea for a campaign but little idea for the system. Why not just create a homebrew campaign for d20 Modern/Mutants and Masterminds? It would allow you to focus on the interesting bits, and if it doesn't work out, you are still free to create your own system - but with a lot more material to flesh the content out.

Remember that campaign settings aren't limited to following every rule in the book; settings for systems other than D&D3 have no problem with throwing out, creating, or modifying significant portions of the "core" game. If you want to turn XP into physical Holydoom and throw in a few mechanics you think might work out, there is nothing stopping you.

Fatebreaker
2012-03-30, 10:31 PM
Zelkon, parts of this are addressed towards what Talakeal is saying, but they're really for your benefit. I hope you take away some good lessons on game design from all this. Even disagreement over what good game design is can be an excellent source of ideas regarding game design.

*ahem*

Talakeal, did we watch the same video? 'cause those games sounded fascinating! Would I play them long-term? Maybe one or two. But I want to try most if not all of them to see how their mechanics work. Some of the ones that most caught my eye were:

A Thousand & One Nights: You roleplay a character at a sultan's court. You envy one (or more) things about every other character. Players roleplay out courtly interactions, until someone decides to (in-game!) tell a story, and assigns roles for other characters to play. You can use this sub-story as a means of advancing the goals of your main character in the sultan's court. How is that not an awesome roleplaying experience?

Dread: You play a horror movie, with a jenga-tower as the mechanism for interaction. Why? Becuase a jenga-tower and a horror movie both follow the same pattern of stability building towards tension until it all goes horribly wrong. That sounds like an awesome match up of mechanics and theme.

It seems to me like you're letting what you like determine whether a game is any good or not. Now, that's fine for your personal enjoyment, but not a good attitude for a game designer because (Zelkon, heads up!) many people can play the same game for different reasons.

That's why it's important for a game designer to exist outside his personal bubble of enjoyment. Your customers will not share your specific bubble. They'll have their own. There may be some overlap. But a good game designer can include elements which appeal to a variety of players.

The Timmy/Johnny/Spike (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b) psycographs are a simple but effective (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr220b) expression of this. Zelkon, this is worth reading. If you're making a game, this (or something very much like it) is useful to help you understand what bits of the game are aimed at what kinds of players.

This is especially important because people tend to play with their friends. If your friends do not want to play a game because it does not appeal to them, then you also do not get to play that game, no matter how much it appeals to you.

I'm going to say that again, because it's that important. I will also bold it, because, y'know, internet.

If your friends do not want to play a game because it does not appeal to them, then you also do not get to play that game, no matter how much it appeals to you.

And now, I'm going to get into some of these sub-topics in detail (and I'll relate it back to Zelkon's questions to boot!). Spoiler'd for length.

Alternate Game Mechanics
Zelkon, when folks ask you how you intend to mechanically support your narrative themes, you have some very vague responses about fun and freedom. I'd be curious to know more, because mechanics influence play, and good mechanics support the core themes of the game. If you are mostly familiar with D&D, you're going to want to look at how other games do this.

D&D, by the book, is a game which strongly influences certain behaviors amongst its players. You and your group may behave differently, in which case I would recommend seeking out a game whose mechanics support those behaviors, but that's up to you.

What behaviors are we talking about? Well, mostly it boils down to violence and greed, in a context of the DM having a near-monopoly on power. I've deliberately chosen negative words to describe this, not because I don't like D&D, but because I want to highlight how someone who does not like D&D may see the game. What you see as a grand epic quest filled with heroic and daring adventure, another player sees as a band of amoral thugs brutalizing monsters for pocket change. What you see as your character navigating a rich narrative in a fantastical world created by your best friend, another player sees as a set of railroad tracks in a world made entirely out of train stations.

So how can you change that view?

Change your mechanics.

Dread, mentioned in the video Talakeal linked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtUgtX3ncTk) (appearing around the 34-minute mark), has players use a jenga-tower to draw them into the horror, because a jenga-game and a horror movie share the same narrative structure. If you do not want to play a horror game, this may not be the best mechanic. If you do want to play a horror game, then maybe this is for you.

I haven't tried it, but I want to. A buddy of mine was running a Call of Cthulhu d20 game, and it just wasn't scary. d20 mechanics and Cthulhu just don't do it for me. If the monster has stats, I can evaluate my odds of success at defeating the monster with a pretty decent degree of certainty. If the monster doesn't have stats, then I most of the d20 mechanics are non-applicable, since d20 mechanics are mostly about combat. But a system where every step we take only puts us one step closer to certain doom...?

Now we're talking.

Alternate Game Master Mechanics
This one gets its own little spoiler-bubble, because it's a major change from D&D.

Zelkon, if you want a game to be fun and freeform, one of the easiest ways you can do this is to axe the position of DM. Instead of "us-players" vs. "them-DM" you have the group doing collaborative storytelling. Yeah, good D&D-DM's and good D&D-parties don't have to fall into the us/them conflict, but it's a good example of a mechanic that influences your thought process. The DM controls all the monsters. The DM makes all the challenges. It's not hard to see how the us/them mentality spawns.

Now, everyone gets a say in the world. Have a mechanic for resolving player-conflicts, something whimsical and easy, and reward characters for going along with another player's ideas. Now the game actively encourages players to contribute (because they can choose to change the world in a manner favorable to them and/or their desires) and characters to accept contributions (because they receive in-game advantages for doing so). The video Talakeal linked (and which I re-linked above) has some examples that sound good in theory. I really want to give them a whirl.

e-books
Talakeal mentioned that WoD went over to e-books. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is partially up to you, but honestly, it's mostly up to the crowd/market/mob. I like both print-books and e-books. Some folks only like print-books, and I imagine that in five or ten years we'll start to see large numbers of folks who only like e-books. I think it's a move that will pay off for them, and I think we'll see game companies who are slow to transition suffer for it.

Zelkon, it's worth browsing DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php) to check out some of what they offer. You can buy e-versions of a lot of games, some well-known, some less well-known. Their prices are good, and there's out-of-print stuff available. I strongly recommend it as a potential resource -- especially since it has a free section! Also, you mentioned you want to put your initial test out on .pdf format, which is a thing that these guys do. So here's an example of what might be a viable outlet for your game when you go on to sell it.

Why Bother?
Zelkon, I apologize, but this bit is pretty much for Talakeal alone, though you're free to use any of it that's helpful to you.

Talakeal, you asked about the appeal of other games. That's kind of a big subject, since there are lot of "other games," so I'll speak in broad terms. If there's a specific game or games with which I am familiar, I'd be happy to explain their appeal.

So! Onwards!

Mechanics influence play. This is such a basic element of game design that I'm always surprised at the people who don't get it. I'm not saying you don't, don't get me wrong. But it's a point worth making because it's at the heart of the appeal of other systems.

D&D's mechanics support (as I mentioned earlier) violence and greed, with a single player having a near-monopoly on power. If you're looking for a more social game, or a horror game, or one where players have a more equal say in the action, then D&D is a rather poor system for that. And of course it is. A car is a terrible system for traveling by water, and aside from one particularly rainy week in Tampa, I've never had any success jetskiing my way to the grocery store. Select the best vehicle for the road you want to travel. D&D isn't designed to travel some roads as well as others, because it doesn't mechanically encourage certain elements of gaming. You can add those elements to your game, yes, but if that's what you were looking for, you're probably better off with a purpose-designed system.

Alternate mechanics encourage players to seek out alternate methods of play. Maybe that's some really big change, like Dread and their jenga-tower (I cannot get over how fascinating that concept is!). Maybe that's something smaller.

Exalted, which you group with D&D, has mechanics whereby good roleplaying grants mechanical rewards. Players can even narrate elements of the environment into being. Even its vocabulary hints at its alternate focus. It has a storyteller instead of a dungeon master. A storyteller shares stores. A dungeon master commands monsters. It's a small point, but it's there. Sure, it's "D&D-like" in the sense that both use dice and both feature an arbitrator who is treated as apart from the players, but you claim that in both, the arbitrator drives the narrative -- that's much less true in Exalted than in D&D. Now, they're closer together than, say, a system with no arbitrator, but sometimes those small mechanical differences can encourage very different styles of play.

For example, in D&D, "I attack the dragon" is mechanically identical to "I draw forth Godslayer, the Blade Which Thirsts, its smoke-black steel rasping from the scabbard with the cries of a thousand unborn souls, and, hurling fell curses towards the uncaring heavens and vowing vengeance for the deaths of my family so many years ago, I plunge the blade deep into the eye of the flame-wrought wyrm." No difference. In Exalted, you roll more dice for the second. It doesn't take long for folks to start roleplaying.

Different mechanics, different behaviors.

And that's the appeal of alternate mechanics. Alternate mechanics support alternate styles of play. Sometimes that's a setting. Fantasy. Swashbuckling. Cyberpunk. Shadowrun is a lethal setting -- any given bullet can kill all but the toughest of runners, and even a non-lethal shot hinders your character. Shadowrun is the same "violence and greed" style as D&D, but you never see high-level wizards concerned about being killed by level-one fighters, because mechanically it's so unlikely as to be absurd. The high lethality of Shadowrun encourages greater degrees of caution on the part of the player (your parties may or may not actually take this encouragement, but mechanically it's there).

Or maybe those alternate mechanics support a behavior on the part of the players. Horror. Paranoia. Curiosity. Cooperation. Adventure!(tm) Who knows! Sky's the limit. It might not be what you're looking for, but it's what someone is looking for. Try to get inside the game and figure out who it's for, and how it appeals to them on a mechanical level.

And that's what it boils down to. Mechanics support themes and encourage behavior. If you're looking for different themes or different behaviors, then different games are your answer.

You mentioned somewhere that you're not happy with D&D from either a mechanical or thematic point of view. So I'm curious -- what does interest you? Maybe we can help!

Zelkon, I hope somewhere in all this you found something of value. I'm always happy to talk more if you found anything helpful. Whatever you do, just remember:

Mechanics influence play, so use mechanics which support the themes and behaviors you want to encourage!

Learn what appeals to different kinds of players and how to tailor your game so the appropriate bits match up with the intended player!

Make sure your game appeals to a variety of players, because people play with their friends and (that important bit from earlier!) if your friends do not want to play a game because it does not appeal to them, then you also do not get to play that game, no matter how much it appeals to you.

Either way, good luck to you!

Talakeal
2012-03-30, 10:55 PM
I didn't say they were bad games, I said they all contained a gimmick which inhibited role-playing. Obviously it is a matter of opinion, but I think most modern role-playing games are actually storytelling games or tactical board games with some role-playing elements added in as an afterthought. There are similarities, but they are in the end very different things.

Yeah, some of those games looked fun. But I wouldn't want to play them for long periods of time. Dread looks cool, but then you realize that failure = death, you never have an opportunity to get into a character or see them grow. Likewise 1001 nights looks fun, but the gimmick prevents you from playing anything but a storyteller, and prevents any sort of plot where you don't have an opportunity to drop everything and tell stories.

But my advice for the OP stands. If you know what you want, reading other games doesn't really help. You shouldn't try and write to an audience, if you don't write what you love it will come out as crap. Once you know what you want for your game I don't see the value of reading a lot of diverse games, you are better off just play testing your own.

That said, I am coming from a long background in reading and playing RPGs and already know what I like in a game. It is very rare for me to read a game and see an idea that I have not already considered unless it is something drastically different which changes the nature of the game itself, and I haven't seen such an idea which reinforces rather than interferes with the traditional RPG model which I am accustomed to.

Edit: Sorry, I posted before I noticed your spoilers. Let me extrapolate a little:

To answer your question about what I want three things out of a game. I want to role-play a more or less real person, I want to overcome challenges, and I want to explore a fictional world.

D&D doesn't allow you to play a realistic person, with the emphasis on forcing everyone into separate roles and power levels with the class / level system, and thematically the absolute good vs. evil played out by killing the other team and taking their stuff to amass personal power does not appeal to me.

BTW I have played White Wolf games for years, probably more than D&D, and I never noticed any difference in the role of the Storyteller vs. DM. Likewise I have read Exalted, and aside from the stunt bonuses I don't see anything in Exalted that rewards role-playing more than WoD. As for stunt bonuses themselves, it's a nice idea, but I have seen it lead to a lot of bad blood. Players get burnt out trying to come up with an original stunt for every action and players get into arguments about where to draw the line between cool and stupid.

Fatebreaker
2012-03-31, 01:36 PM
Zelkon, here are a few things to look for when checking out a new game:

Core Concept: What are the core concepts of the game? This includes themes, behaviors, and the driving motivation of play. These are the ideas that everything else in the game should be built around.


Mechanics: What are the mechanics of the game? How are they presented? How do they support the core concepts of the game, and how well do they do it? How do the mechanics tie in with the appeal of the game? How does it encourage players to behave?


Appeal: Who is this game meant to appeal to? How does it set about appealing to them? What elements are meant for what kind of players? How inclusive is the game? What does the game offer that other games do not? Is the appeal one of theme, of setting, of behaviors, or of mechanics?


Artwork: How much artwork is in your book, and where? Do the pictures match the descriptions? What quality is the artwork, and how consistent is it?


"Heart-to-Heart:" How honest is the game with the player about the nature of the game? Does the game communicate with the player, or does it just dump a pile of rules on him? Does it feature a section devoted to making sure the players understand what they're in for, does it just expect them to figure it out for themselves, or are there sidebars and asides throughout the book which offer explanations or alternatives?


Layout: How is the book presented to the player? How much of the book is dedicated to setting and background information, how much to rules, how much to storytelling & roleplaying ideas, how much to artwork, how much to sidestories, how much to character creation? What gets the biggest chunk of the book, and why?


Disconnect: Does the game promise you one thing but give you another? Does it lie to you, or does it just feel like it was made by two different groups who never really talked to one another? Are there options that don't make any sense? Does the setting not really match the rules? Do the mechanics not match the appeal? Where does it feel like the game designer fell asleep on the job?

But above all, when looking at a new game, ask yourself what you like about it, and how the game plays up the aspects you like. Is there a really awesome piece of artwork in the character creation section that captured your imagination? A cool mechanic with an exciting example of play? Does the book just naturally flow from beginning to end, with easy-to-find rules and an appealing layout? How does the game convey its intentions?

Likewise, what don't you like about the game, and why? Is it a cool idea handled poorly? Is it a bad idea that inexplicably takes center stage? Is it the sudden realization that the game is lying to you? Is it just poorly explained?

Once your game hits the shelves, it's not your game anymore. If you aren't clear in your communication (and note that all of the points above are about communication in one way or another), your players are going to be disappointed. That's why looking at other games and how they communicate with their players matters. There are some smart people out there who have already made the rookie mistakes for you. Learn from them.

The old West End Games Star Wars 3rd Edition Roleplaying Game (or, WEGSW3eRPG, for short) had some running characters throughout the rulebook who both stood in examples of play, and also routinely broke the fourth wall to talk to the players. At one point, they get into an argument about the importance of following the rules-as-written versus house-rules. Watching that argument play out in the book was an invaluable tool for my group and I, because we were new to roleplaying games, and we hadn't learned to have those arguments for ourselves.

Even better, they had the Imperial character argue for strict interpretations of the rules, and a freewheeling smuggler/pirate argue in favor of fun. Even if you had never seen Star Wars, and even if you knew nothing about it, suddenly you have a pretty clear idea about what the Imperials stand for, and what folks opposing them stand for. Not only are the game designers talking to you, the players, about how you can play your game your way, but they're also having a discussion about the setting. It's a sublime little element that -- even if you don't like Star Wars or the d6 system -- is well worth learning from.

Talakeal & L5R:

To answer your question about what I want three things out of a game. I want to role-play a more or less real person, I want to overcome challenges, and I want to explore a fictional world.

You should try Legend of the Five Rings! It's a light-fantasy game inspired by feudal Japan. While monsters and ghosts are real, most of the game revolves around the conflicts of the clans and families within the Empire plotting and scheming and trying to get their way without devolving into open war. If you don't like D&D forcing you to kill the other team all the time, how about a game where you can run entire campaigns attempting not to go war with people?

Y'know, or the war thing. You can do that too.

It's a fun system. My group just got into it, and we're having a blast! We haven't even finished character creation, and we can see how amazing the game is.

But it's got a clearly defined setting (which also has some clearly-defined modular aspects for GM's who want to play up this aspect or tone down that one), and its characters are distinctly meant to be real people. You don't murder random strangers for pocket change (in fact, it's dishonorable to be seen as overly concerned with money in the first place!), and you generally aren't in the business of cashing in your old weapons for "the same, but better" versions every few levels. In fact, you probably have a very compelling desire to keep your starting katana throughout your career, because it's your katana, or even better, your ancestor's katana. And it definitely has challenges to overcome. Oh yes.

In fact (howdy, Zelkon!), the core rulebook has a list of 36 basic plots and the minimum number of characters required to run each one. It has a section on Western vs. Eastern storytelling. It has more pages devoted to storytelling, in fact, than it does to the basic rules (~30 vs. ~25). That focus on storytelling in the book gives you a lot of insight into L5R versus D&D, which basically says, "Look, have a villain, give him some minions, and, I dunno, treasure?"

You may like it. It's worth looking into. Zelkon, you may like it, both for fun, and for a look at how AEG went about presenting a world they obviously love very, very much.

Gavinfoxx
2012-03-31, 03:34 PM
If you don't want to buy a bunch of RPG's, there are a LOT of free RPG's on the web!

http://www.homebrew.net/games/

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/fulllist.html

I'd also download D6 Adventure, it's free...

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/20446/D6-Adventure?it=1&filters=0_0_0_0_0&free=1

Talakeal
2012-03-31, 09:34 PM
I have heard a lot of good things about L5R, although I have never gotten a chance to read it so far, I probably will when I can get around to it. It will be perfectly academic, however, as the chances of actually finding a group are virtually zero.

Also, I never said there were no good games, I said that D&D is not my "ideal game" and that I haven't seen a game published in the last 10 years (L5R is 1995) that didn't have a lot of gimmick mechanics which served to hinder roleplaying, which is my favorite part of the game.

ogane
2012-03-31, 09:46 PM
id play it sounds kinda fun

eggs
2012-04-01, 12:19 AM
@Talakeal - I think we have very wildly divergent tastes in game systems, but I have a hard time imagining it's that tricky for a guy to turn to his friends and say "You guys want to play a game?" One of the big turn-offs to old-school games is the prep time (it's not feasible to sit down and start playing even Alternity in less than half an hour); not so much with many recent games. As long as one person knows how they work, plenty of fun systems like Dread or Fiasco can be played with about as much learning/prep as board games like Life or Payday. This, in my experience, makes finding a group to play superhero games with Fate or Badass Presidents (http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/badass-presidents) way easier than finding a group to play older and possibly better-known systems like V&V.

On the topic of lighter games, I'm not the biggest fan of all of John Wick's projects, but I really like the philosophy behind his lighter games: specifically picking out the 3-4 features that should be important to the game fiction, building mechanisms to support them, and handwaving everything else away. It's not hard to take that approach, throw it in a direction and make quick and workable 5-6 page systems for different genres (something like "Singing Cowboys" would naturally involve songwriting, 50s-era morals, crooning and improbable deeds; "Luchadores" would involve giving silly names to wrestling moves, executing sick double-crosses and aspiring for the blackest/whitest of character moralities). I found Wilderness of Mirrors (Wick's light spy game) to be worth the read, just for its transparency in the thoughts underlying its design process.

I'm not sure how much of that would apply to the OP, but those sorts of quick light games are nice exercises in basic design, seeing what's fun, and in putting together smallscale beer-and-pretzels passtimes.

Talakeal
2012-04-01, 04:21 PM
@Eggs:
Once you know the rules I can't imagine the prep for a one shot RPG taking longer than 10-30 minutes, about the same time as most board games with a lot of pieces. And hell, if you really want a casual game just do a freeform magical tea party game. I prefer rules to help with roleplaying, but I would prefer no rules at all to a game where the rules actively interfere with it.

Also, finding a group for a new game is harder than you think. All of my friends live a hundreds of miles away, so I have to find new groups to play with, and it is extremely hard in my area, and I usually have to resort to playing pathfinder or 4E because those are the only games in town.

When I do get a chance to play with my regular group we play my homebrew system, both because I know we like it and because the playtesting helps me improve the game more than knowledge of other game systems imo (which was more or less my original premise). Also, even among my group of friends it is hard to agree on a game, for example I have one guy who won't play any system where he can't play a batman wizard (we have wanted to start CoC and Aces and Eights games in the past but couldn't because they don't have that option) because the only thing he finds fun in an RPG is solving all his problems with magic.

@Zelkon:
Might I suggest you get to work finding artists now? In my experience art is the hardest part of the game, and I have heard a lot of other developers say the same thing. I have contacted a ton of artists who took a commission (often times along with my money) and never gave it back. Even close friends who are artists will take months or years to get a piece done. I imagine I could go to print within the next six months if I didn't have so many outstanding art projects I am waiting on.

Fatebreaker
2012-04-01, 06:45 PM
Zelkon, something else worth taking into consideration is the actual book itself. What does it look like? What is it made out of? How does it feel?

I was thinking about the 3rd & 4th editions of Shadowrun (someone was asking on another thread) and I realized that I really liked the feel of 3rd edition more than 4th. Wanting to explore why, I came up with a variety of reasons, but one that related here was that the 3rd edition books had this gritty, grey feel to them. The 4th edition core book is all glossy and shiny, and it's hard to get into the mood for cyberpunk when everything is bright and happy. When I sat down to compare 3rd & 4th edition counterparts, a lot of 'em aren't really that different. But there's a lot of subtle differences that are hard to put your finger on, and those differences make it harder for me -- without even reading a word -- to feel like 4th edition is "cyberpunk." That's non-specific, I know, but it might be of value to you.

Oh, and on that subject, when looking at multiple editions of the same game, look over them twice. Once as "the same game, but different" and once as an entirely separate game. D&D has gone through several different companies, each with their own feel. L5R under the "roll and keep" system is very different from its d20 cousin. Shadowrun 4th is a happier, less nuanced world than it was in 3rd edition, but the mechanics are much easier to learn, and the switch from wired to wireless Matrix has some serious alterations on party dynamics. Point is, somewhere along the line, people with Real Money made Real Decisions to change those games, and while some of them probably had shoddy reasons, some of them did not. Even an old title with an old company is feeling very new influences, and watching the evolution of a game can provide some good lessons in that regard.


When I do get a chance to play with my regular group we play my homebrew system, both because I know we like it and because the playtesting helps me improve the game more than knowledge of other game systems imo (which was more or less my original premise).

I find it odd that you continue to advocate this. Why would you deliberately encourage someone to not learn from the successes and failures of others?

Talakeal
2012-04-01, 07:02 PM
I find it odd that you continue to advocate this. Why would you deliberately encourage someone to not learn from the successes and failures of others?

In a perfect world I would say he should thoroughly read and play every game ever made. However, in real life both time and money are limiting factors. My suggestion to the OP was that, once he knew what he did and did not want in his game, he was better off concentrating on that gaming style rather than spending his limited time and money tracking down every RPG under the sun.

It's the same reason in school when you go for a degree you need general ed and then you focus on your major. There are many related fields which will give you a better understanding of your major, but it simply isn't worth the average students time or money to study them extensively, especially at the expense of their major.

Knaight
2012-04-01, 07:29 PM
In a perfect world I would say he should thoroughly read and play every game ever made. However, in real life both time and money are limiting factors. My suggestion to the OP was that, once he knew what he did and did not want in his game, he was better off concentrating on that gaming style rather than spending his limited time and money tracking down every RPG under the sun.
The recommendation was ten games. That can be managed for free or fairly cheap, given 24 hours to read - call it a month, at less than an hour a day. That's nothing. Reading every game is orders of magnitude more effort - there are tens or hundreds of thousands of games out there, easily. As for playing, that's all of five sessions recommended. If you have time to write a game, you have time to do the research.

This is particularly critical when you consider that learning more games introduces you to more tools with which to make games. Learning a few different dice systems (or not-dice systems), a few different broad character creation systems, a few different narrative distibution systems (e.g. permanent GM, alternating GM, no GM), and just a few different little tricks, methods of simulating, etc. is very much a good thing.

Talakeal
2012-04-01, 07:53 PM
The recommendation was ten games. That can be managed for free or fairly cheap, given 24 hours to read - call it a month, at less than an hour a day. That's nothing. Reading every game is orders of magnitude more effort - there are tens or hundreds of thousands of games out there, easily. As for playing, that's all of five sessions recommended. If you have time to write a game, you have time to do the research.

This is particularly critical when you consider that learning more games introduces you to more tools with which to make games. Learning a few different dice systems (or not-dice systems), a few different broad character creation systems, a few different narrative distibution systems (e.g. permanent GM, alternating GM, no GM), and just a few different little tricks, methods of simulating, etc. is very much a good thing.

If you look at my original post, I said it wasn't practical to PLAY a whole bunch of games, and that you should read as many as you can, but you will get to a certain point where reading more games has diminishing effectiveness.