First-time DM looking for help with new player, help greatly appreciated.

[Dairuga]

This is going to be a very, very big post, so I apologize in advance.

Okay, first off, I am sorry for asking this of you all, but a new guy has joined my very tender start as a DM, and I am starting to feel very... badly towards him, and I don't know how to handle him properly.

Okay, so I am just starting out as a DM. I have a group of two people whom are very tightly knit, and is fun to play with. One is playing a bard, the other is playing a psion (Supervised by me, as he does not know how to play a Psion very well, but loves the concept). Now, the point is, we are a very low-OP group, we take feats out of flavour and such more than strictly combat-potential, etc, etc. It is all fun and games. The psion has 17 as his highest stat, the bard has 16 his highest ones (Cha and Con).

And then; enter the next player. One of my good friends whom sniffed out that I am playing D&D, and was even DM'ing for a group, and he immediately wanted to join. Good, good, says I, What do you want to play as?

And he says, very eagerly, that he wants to be his Kitsune (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kitsune_(3.5e_Race)). It is his own homebrew race, and I get that little niggly feeling that I am stepping into things that will end badly. So, I look over the Kitsune. +1 LA (I do not enjoy playing with LA classes in particular due to various reason (Special abilities that might unbalance the game, and due to the LA creatures being prone to dying off at level 1, when the rest of the party hits level 2-3).

Futher, he wants to play a 12-year old child Kitsune, but he said he really wanted me to waive the child-penalty, because the 12-year old thing was just for flavour, cause he liked playing Kids. It was so really fun to roleplay, and it added a lot of flavour, but the penalties really crippled him. Seeing as that was a good reason, I chose to disregard it. After all, it's just a flavour option. And he added that as a child, he's rather Ditzy and playful. But he's well-trained for his age, and he knows how to handle himself in combat. Like a child soldier. but outside of combat, he can be scared and a bit playful.

It goes on, as the Kitsune has +4 to DEX, as well as -2 to Con. Well, it's a +2 gain in Dex. It is obviously he is going to minmax Dexterity. Kitsunes also gain Dancing lights at will, and Permanent True seeing. As well as being a master of disguise, which makes them immune to other creature's True seeing and detect invisibility when they are trying to hide themselves.

I kept stating that I am new to DM'ing, and I would really, really like for this to be book-printed only, and to shy away from the Homebrewed things, but he goes on to say that "Don't worry, It's really balanced. The True vision is the only thing that's really good for them. And I really want to play this race.". I state that I am new, and not quite sure how to handle him, as my planned Bad guy is really high on Illusions and trickery (in order to escape on planned encounters, as well as to gain an edge on encounters; ambushes and such). The new player says "Don't you know D&D is supposed to have Multiple Bad guys? Make some more that don't rely on illusions!".

I say that.. It seems rather overpowered... And I would rather not want to give him extraordinary abilities that would ruin good roleplaying moments, to which he responds with "I can roleplay! I'm not going to power play or munchkin. I just want to be strong."

A couple of other handful things that the Kitsune gets, is the Scent feat for free, and low-light vision.

Furthermore, stats are rolled. 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 12. He pumps his fists in the air, even if I didn't see the rolls, explains that he's really lucky at dice, and proceeds to assign his stats. So he ends up with 22 Dex, 18 Will, 15 con, 16 Int, 15 Cha and 12 strenght. At this point, I am feeling rather queasy about the whole thing, because he is a good friend, very sensitive, and has a penchant of being hurt by things. But, he is a good friend, so what can you do? I try to suggest the point by system, and he says "But I hate that! It takes away the element of luck!" and frowns at me. So I just sigh, and honestly don't know what to do. And if he really -did- get lucky with his roll, is it fair of me to just say "No, you rolled too well. Too bad, you just wasted such an amazing roll, cause it was too good."?


So then, I keep discussing class with him, and trying to at least look over what he is planning, so that I can get some grips on how to keep his character in check. He starts off by telling me to go to the Complete Adventurer book, cause the Scout is there. He's going to be a skirmishing Scout. He'll take the feats Improved skirmish, manyshot, greater manyshot, as well as Ranged threat (It lets you threaten at a range with a ranged weapon).

I ask him if he plans on taking any flaws, to which he just goes silent.... and replies with "Oh. I usually just go Here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Flaws) and pick something silly", and those very words.

...I pointed out that I -really- want to play with book only rules, and hands him the official list of flaws. Vulnerable, Frail, Shaky, Noncombatant, etc. And I said to pick one that "Applies" to his character. And that it had to be relevant. (No picking noncombatant when he is only ever going to use a bow, etc.), and he goes "But that'd ruin my character! I need the feats, but taking a -2 to all ranged attacks will make him suck."

I am not... Quite sure where he is going with his choices of feats, after we resolve that little dispute about him having to pick real flaws (So he picks frail, losing one of his 22 AC at level 1, as well as Vulnerable (-1 Hp at each level), so I ask him how he fights. And he says: "Well, at higher levels, I run thirty feet away, I can attack about 7-8 times a turn with skirmish!"

Then I point out that, in order to use Skirmish, he has to move.... And in order to attack more times in one round, he has to use a Full-round action, needing both his attack and his movement action...

He goes "But I got perma-haste! I just need some boots of Haste or something, I have done it before. And besides, at higher levels you can trade away some attacks for extra movement!", and I really don't know what to say to that, other than to slap him in the face with the rulebook and say that Haste doesn't provide more actions; only more speed an addtional attack, and the rules does in no way state that he can trade in attacks for more speed; he can only give up his standard action for the round to take two movement actions instead. Which would not solve his problem.

Plus, a full-round action takes the entire round. That means he cannot do other things, meaning no skirmishing.

"But then Scout is completely useless!" he yells out, going wide-eyed, seemingly half-angry, half exasperated with me. "Then they suck, and I can't use them! I need the damage at higher levels!", he exclaims, in those exact words. "Then they are useless", he continues, seeming to breathe heavily, as if struggling with the concept.

I tell him. "Well... You could get yourself a Belt of Battle. That would grant you an additional full round action.", and I am generally putting on a sheepish smile, trying to act.. as kind as I can, after shattering his dreams, it seemed. He looks it up. "BUt.. it has charges!" he exclaims loudly.

"Well.. Yes. And it takes all three charges to use the full round action, but then you can really pull out that massive damage, once per day."

"That's useless to me!" he yells at me, and he is basically there, fuming. And due to time constraints, we have to cut it there... So he is left for the night.

------------------------------

Next day.

I wake up, we speak together. His immediate response is "I want to be a rogue instead.". And I am slightly relieved. Hey, Haley Starshine from OOTS. Ranged rogue, right there. This should be somewhat simpler to incorporate. At least, Sneak attacks are more managable than skirmish; right? No. Not at all, it seems.

"I want the feat Ranged Feint", he says. (I could not find, so he sent me the dragon magazine, which you can use to make a bluff against an enemy, and your next attack is performed as if they were flat-footed; I.e. they lose Dex bonus to AC). And I read it up. "You -do- know that it takes a standard action to feint, right?", I ask him. "Yea, yea! I know. So I can feint, and then full attack them."

At this point, I am not entire -sure- what to say. "You mean, you can feint them.. And then attack them on your next turn?" He goes slightly silent.. But then he says "Yeah, So I spend one turn feinting, and then the next I can full sneak attack them several times", to where I point out, ranged feint says "Your next attack", which does not mean "Your next full-attack", but your next attack. singular."

"But then that's useless too!" He cries out at me, and.. Just, yes. "You could use the belt- "That's only three times per day! I need it permanent! It's useless to me!"


And.. Well, that's where we are, currently. I mean.. if he is a ranged rogue.. Could he be able to sneak attack an enemy while flanking? as in, if there is an ally on the other end of the enemy, and they are successfully flanking an enemy (even if Ranged weaponry cannot flank), do they still get denied that Dex bonus to AC so that he can do several sneak attacks on them?

In a half-hearted attempt to divert the argument, I am talking to him about a character I want to introduce. Not because I want to influence the party, but because I have this character I want to play, and that fits the scenario (It is basically Humans - Elves - Gnomes - Dwarves vs. Monstrous, sentient humanoids. Two factions scattered over the continents, bickering with eachother, assassination attempts, etc. People hate Monsters, vice versa).

"My character was a Cleric Gnoll named Garm", I say with a smile.

"He was a usual gnoll, rough, tough, Hated people. Had his pack, joined raids... And ended up dying. His leg got broken, and as far as gnoll-standards go, he was dead meat. He was left to die. He woke up in a monestary, much to his surprise. His leg was... better. In fact, it hardly hurt! It had been healed. Long story short, he was told the monks healed him, and he said that he could learn it, too, if he believed in a god. Garm went "...if I believe, I can learn to mend bones and wounds?", and got the biggest grin you can imagine on a greedy gnoll. And so, he spent a year or two, slowly becoming a cleric. Exposition exposition exposition. He has become a very, very calm Gnoll. He had met a god, Pelor, in his dreams. Or he think he did. It was some.. Light, sunbathed figure he could not make out. And it.. touched his forehead, bathing him in a warming light. And since that time, he had the Healing devotion feat, which manifests as that fingerprint appearing on his forehead when he "Dies", or starts dying, and his body starts repairing itself, a surging, snaking light wrapping around him, sweeping and closing his wounds.

It made him feel indebted to this god, whom the monks said was Pelor. The patron of the sun. So he became a Pelor-worshipping Cleric, and he set out to fix the world. At least... he wanted to make the world a slightly better place. To give back something of what he had been given in turn, and to.. make up for the gift he had been given. After meeting with what he believed was Pelor, he had.. always felt the want to repay the deity. That no matter what he did, it would not measure up to what he had been given. And so he travels the world, and aids anyone, whether or not they hurl rocks at him for being a monster, or if they are bleeding out on the battlefield or at the hands of stray wolves. He just bears it, silently.

So, backstory time over, and I still have that soft smile, as Garm is a precious character to me. This guy's response was, letter for letter: "Gnoll Cleric -.-"

And "There goes the Charisma >.>. so much for a decent turner. At least he can be the meatshield."

And the gem, of course: "Gnoll cleric is a very bad combination. If you want to, I can help you make your cleric much better. I know of a Race that would make a much better cleric.

Needless to say, that hit me rather hard. Granted, Garm only has 12 Charisma, which is essentially very bad for a cleric, as he is an ugly little Gnoll, so he is not exactly -wrong-. Clerics do make good meatshields... but still.


This is my first instance in DM'ing, and... I honestly don't know how to handle him. I want to be nice, but... He cries at me, exasperately, that he -has- to be strong to survive, and I say that "I won't make it -that- hard", and he says "Of course it will be hard! At higher levels you meet demons and outsiders and enormous monsters! You need damage! or you'll die! I don't want my character to die!".

Having him is... a bit more than I can handle, and I don't know how to tell him off without being rude / evil to him. He effectively wants to outshine the entire party. As a twelve year old, ditzy kid. And nothing is ever good enough for him, if it is not permanent, or able to always get him out of trouble. He... Just doesn't like to fail in any way, (He was a monsterous humanoid, and I said he should possibly learn how to conceal his kitsune traits (large ears, and a fox tail). he said he could fold his ears down into his hair, since they are the same colour, and he can make a hollow, thick belt like tube to stuff his tail into. I suggested that he could simply wrap the tail around his waist as a belt, saying he slayed a fox; but he simply went "but then the tail moves -.- No.".) and... I just don't know how to handle him.

So... Do anyone of you, here, on the Playground, have any advice at all? I... Don't really want to dump him, since he is a long-standing friend, and he is all too eager to help me out in DM'ing, as he have said several times. He can help me if I ever have troubles, or need help for something. He's.... Nice. Or he tries to be, at least. But he is just... trainwrecking to talk to, as much as I want to include him.

Sorry all, for the enormous post, again.

[Shadowleaf]

(I'm reading through the post again - I'll be editing in more stuff)

Regarding Kitsune: Permanent True Seeing, Scent and +4 Dex is already at least LA +2. Being able to circumvent True Seeing/Detect Invisibility? That's like the holy grail for Rogues (only have to worry about extraordinary senses and Mindsight!). Do not allow this race, it's completely overpowered.

You can only Sneak Attack something up to 30 feet away. You need to be doing one part of the flanking yourself and you cannot flank with a range weapon (there might be a feat somewhere).

Anyway, you need to deal with the player himself, not his character ideas. He is trying to slip stuff by you, so sit down and have a serious talk about the power level of the group with him, along with his expectations of the campaign. If he doesn't understand, don't play with him, seeing as someone won't be having fun. Make sure he understands you are going for fully fleshed out RP-characters, not weird fantasies with numbers and a name.

If you do decide to play with him, I suggest you look over his sheet thoroughly. Some of the broken/overpowered/cheesier stuff can be really hard to spot, so make sure you understand the possibilities of his character, or show it to someone who does (this board is filled with people who has amazing knowledge of the D&D 3.5 rules).

In regards to Feint: You can take Improved Feint and Feint as a Move Action instead of a Standard Action. It's still not very good.


Edit: Oh yea. Reroll stats in front of you. No ifs no buts. If he refuses, he was more than most likely cheating before. Have him choose between reroll and 28 point buy or something.

Edit again: Me no speaky good English when tired.

[Palanan]

Am I reading correctly that you didn't actually see the rolls for his stats?

[inexorabletruth]

One thought: If you can't beat 'em, join em?

Turn him into your DMPC. :smallbiggrin: Before everyone starts throwing rotten tomatoes at me for suggesting a DMPC, here's what I mean:

Let him help you with the rules, the story, game mechanics, etc. That way, he's sort of an insider, which means he can't be a regular PC, because it's too easy to meta-game that way. But he could control the BBEG, recurring villains, etc. in the game!

Encourage him to build some monsters and mini-bosses that are ECL appropriate according to the campaign you two are doing, and it will accomplish three things:

1. It will turn a seriously high maintenance player into a very enthusiastic ally.
2. It will hopefully teach him the meaning of a balanced campaign.
3. He'll stop whining about not being invincible, because it's different when you're playing as the bad guys.

You control the direction of the story, the minion encounters, random encounters, and make the final rulings on any disputes. Let him build the BBEG's, subversive baddies, and min-bosses and go toe-to-toe with the characters playing the heroes in the epic battles, but make sure he gets his characters approved through you, to make sure he doesn't introduce an OP boss or mini-boss.

Hopefully the lesson about building balanced characters and not fussing over issues of mortality will sink in through this experiment, and he can join as a PC in later sessions or in a different campaign. If not... at least you have a scheming munchkin advisor to go to when you need a particularly nasty BBEG for your campaign.

[Particle_Man]

To quote a wiser man than I:

"Kill him and take his stuff" [/Old Geezer]

[Dairuga]

(I'm reading through the post again - I'll be editing in more stuff)

Regarding Kitsune: Permanent True Seeing, Scent and +4 Dex is already at least LA +2. Being able to circumvent True Seeing/Detect Invisibility? That's like the holy grail for Rogues (only have to worry about extraordinary senses and Mindsight!). Do not allow this race, it's completely overpowered.


Thank you for that. I... THought it was far too powerful for simply a +1 LA, but he assured me it was completely balanced out, since that was the only good thing they -could- do. I am glad that somene else thinks it is worth more than +1LA, and that it should be higher.





You can only Sneak Attack something up to 30 feet away. You need to be doing one part of the flanking yourself and you cannot flank with a range weapon (there might be a feat somewhere).


Yes, I know that. I think I managed to get that into his head, after a lot of reading and asking around, so that problem is solved, at least.




Anyway, you need to deal with the player himself, not his character ideas. He is trying to slip stuff by you, so sit down and have a serious talk about the power level of the group with him, along with his expectations of the campaign. If he doesn't understand, don't play with him, seeing as someone won't be having fun. Make sure he understands you are going for fully fleshed out RP-characters, not weird fantasies with numbers and a name.

If you do decide to play with him, I suggest you look over his sheet thoroughly. Some of the broken/overpowered/cheesier stuff can be really hard to spot, so make sure you understand the possibilities of his character, or show it to someone who does (this board is filled with people who has amazing knowledge of the D&D 3.5 rules).



Yes. I think I will need to have a very long talk with him, but... It appears like he does not understand. He is cunningly devious when he tries to come up with ideas that does not work on a normal rulebook basis, but when it comes to comprehending that, with a non-optimized guide; I won't be hurling balrogs and such at them, he does not seem to understand. It is disheartening. I am trying to look as far into his sheet as I can, and pick out what I can, but my knowledge is rather limited. But still, I am trying my best, and I am truly thankful for having the playground here, as your knowledge is invaluable to a new DM.





In regards to Feint: You can take Improved Feint and Feint as a Move Action instead of a Standard Action. It's still not very good.



Yes, I know. He had Improved Feint written up on his sheet too, because Improved Feint would let him attack; feint, and then Full attack for everything the next round, or so he claimed.



Am I reading correctly that you didn't actually see the rolls for his stats?

Yes.. Yes you are. I was silly, because I did not think he would be that lucky. I don't actually see my group rolls (Hey, one of the guys got two 16's, one 14, one 12 and two tens, and the other got a 17, a 15, a 13, a 14 an 11 and a 8. I believe them, and they don't cheat... Then this guy comes around and is being extremely lucky).

As mentioned by both you and the previous guy, I forced him to reroll. He expressed his extreme disinterest, because it was unfair to make him throw away such an amazing roll, and this time I watched him roll all of the rolls. He started to almost cry when he rolled a 9 (his final stats were 18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 9). He put the 9 in strength, and lo and behold... his next quote was, after I asked him to fill in a mythweaver sheet: "You don't play with the stupid weight rules, do you?".

Upon affirmation of this, that I do indeed play with the weight capacity rules, he said that was a stupid rule to use, as his group just give everyone a bag of holding so they don't have to worry about weight issues.


One thought: If you can't beat 'em, join em?

Turn him into your DMPC. :smallbiggrin: Before everyone starts throwing rotten tomatoes at me for suggesting a DMPC, here's what I mean:

Let him help you with the rules, the story, game mechanics, etc. That way, he's sort of an insider, which means he can't be a regular PC, because it's too easy to meta-game that way. But he could control the BBEG, recurring villains, etc. in the game!

Encourage him to build some monsters and mini-bosses that are ECL appropriate according to the campaign you two are doing, and it will accomplish three things:

1. It will turn a seriously high maintenance player into a very enthusiastic ally.
2. It will hopefully teach him the meaning of a balanced campaign.
3. He'll stop whining about not being invincible, because it's different when you're playing as the bad guys.

You control the direction of the story, the minion encounters, random encounters, and make the final rulings on any disputes. Let him build the BBEG's, subversive baddies, and min-bosses and go toe-to-toe with the characters playing the heroes in the epic battles, but make sure he gets his characters approved through you, to make sure he doesn't introduce an OP boss or mini-boss.

Hopefully the lesson about building balanced characters and not fussing over issues of mortality will sink in through this experiment, and he can join as a PC in later sessions or in a different campaign. If not... at least you have a scheming munchkin advisor to go to when you need a particularly nasty BBEG for your campaign.


Thank you again, for the suggestion, but there is a few problems here... A few I don't -really- want to admit, because... well. He is my friend, so I might just be weak to oversee things on his behalf, but.. Yes.

Firstly, he is adamant. He wants to be a player character. He wants to go on quests, he wants me to make up events, because he's not very good at that, he says. And he wants to play as those events, along with the team. Because teams are fun to play as. He -want- to play his kitsune more than anything, because he has almost never gotten to play with them before.

And... He does not care for the story, at all. I ran him trough the entire story of my world (Short summary: Tension between two races, a goblin-team of rogues; specially trained black ops, managed to sneak in, they got caught, but a last ditch effort managed to plant a poisoned dagger into the king's liver. He got poisoned, and humanity lost a prominent figure in their world; making the tension break out into outright hostility between monsterous humanoids and normal humanoids.), and... Only fifteen minutes later, when I ask him about a backstory for his character, since he was a rogue now, and many rogue skills are trained only (This means, in my terms, that he has to find a trainer to train him).

His first statement was that "I'd get someone to teach me, of course. Being a rogue is simple". I retort with "Oh, yes. You could get an orc to help you out with picking locks".

And he replies with "No, Orcs are dumb. I'd rather get an elf to help me out, as they are much better. They are smarter, too, and better at teaching". I can only reply with :
"Good luck with that. You remember that elves hate monsters? And that you are a monsterous humanoids?"

And his reply is the following: "No, you need to know, rogues are open-minded. They wouldn't mind helping my character out. Especially not if I saved them from a wolf or a poisoned snake that were attacking them".

I mean... This was my world, and i had invented rules for it. And he says that the rules of my world does not apply to how rogues are supposed to be.


--------------------------

Also, update on the general post.

I played one session with him, to test him out. He started out in a forest, got attacked by two wolves (Since he is ECL 2), and he promptly climbs up a tree, shoots the wolves to death one by one as they snarl at him. He then makes his way towards the nearest city, visits the healer (a level 5 cleric, asks for potions. He has 10 gold on him, and he tries a diplomacy check to haggle the price down to 10 gold for one healing potion. I do not allow it, he gets annoyed, but nods, grunting cutely like a 12 year old would, before heading out, muttering out that he'd be back under his breath.

He hears town crier talk about the city's carriage has been attacked, and the mayor's daughter lost an heirloom to the raid. she is willing to pay a bag of gold to whomever can get it back. He walks up, and in an admittedly cool display, asks me if there is a critter nearby. Once the crier shuns him, he grabs his bow (Sleight of hand roll 23, to make it a swift action, he said), and shoots the rat on sight, rolling a critical hit, instantly spears the rat and makes the crier give him the mission. or at least, tell him more about the raid, where it was, etc. Then he says "I'll do it tomorrow, perhaps." and goes to sleep under a tree.

He wakes up at midnight. I ask what he is up to. He says "I'm going to rob the healer, and steal some healing potions for my adventure. "

At this point, I facepalm. Pretty hard, mind you. Because, he is a level 1 Rogue, wanting to steal from a level 5 healer. I say that he is a cleric, and is the only magical goods-sale in my town of Silverfall. (Yes, three smaller-to-larger settlements, Coppercrest, Silverfall and Goldhaven). And he, of course, assumes that the plan will go without a hitch. I say "Dude... It's the only magical shop in town. There are a lot of valuable things there. And you are a level 1 rogue"

He says "so?"

I say "It's going to be trapped", with a stern voice.

He says "Hey! Remember to keep things appropriate to my level!"

...And what. Just. What.


So he silently walks and hides his way towards the healer in the middle of the night (He sees a door with a very elegant, finely-carved doorframe; that and a window (Also with a distinctively finely crafted doorframe) seemingly being the only entrances to the shop. So he picks the doorlock easily, and he siilently reaches up with an arrow, silencing the warning bell as he slides the door open (So that the bell would not ring, the thing in the middle not hitting the sides).

And he promptly steps inside.

Boom, Glyph of warding; hits with contagion.
Blinding sickness, he loses 4 strenght.
Loses both saving throws.

He is now permanently blind, and starts raging, as he just tried to rob the -only- healer in town, whom have the ability to restore blinding. (it was either using a Sonic Trap to work as an "Alarm", figuring that the Sonic Blasting Glyph would make a lot of noise and wake up a sleeping person, but the 2d8 (he has 6 HP) could kill him potentially.

But now his game was ruined because he was blind.

So I had to retcon the spell to "Summon creature 2", summoning up a wolf; the motes of light giving him a warning that something was coming, and it sent him hightailing out of town, the barking and howling awakening the cleric in the process.

And that was where the session ended. I am not sure how it is going to continue.

[JadePhoenix]

Your player is probably the worst D&D player possible.
In your place, I would stop playing with him.

[Shadowleaf]

Sounds like he wants to play Skyrim in RPG form. :smallsigh:

If you are not going to scale everything to cater to the group (you shouldn't), I'd suggest you tell him that. Explain to him that wealthy and experienced people have access to items, spells and services a poor inexperienced brat probably does not have.

But, I think it's a lost cause. When he's telling you how to run your world in your game, there's little hope for improvement.

It sounds like you're being very nice with him - sit down with him and explain everything plainly. You're concerned he'll ruin the campaign. Explain why. If he doesn't understand, give examples. If he refuses to listen, kick him out of the group.

Edit: More of a personal touch: Don't tell him the healer is a higher level NPC. Never tell your players how/what something else is unless their character would know.
Examples include:
Spellcasting: Instead of saying "The Orc casts Magic Missile.", say "The Orc lets loose a volley of magical energy from his finger tips. The energy forms into dart-like shapes and strikes you straight in the stomach." (This also helps build atmosphere and make combat feel more alive). If they want to know it's a Magic Missile spell, have them roll Spellcraft and add "You identify the spell as a Magic Missile spell" or some such.
NPC's and Monsters: Don't tell your player the Healer is a Level X Y. Instead, he's an experienced and/or established healer. If you can't tell whether a Fighter has 30 or 15 HP, you surely can't tell if he's Level 4 or 3 either. A Fighter with 30 HP might look healthier and stronger, but always leave your players guessing (unless you're trying to make a point - using words like blinding light, awestriking presence and divine beauty when describing a high CR Angel will usually get the point across).

[Douglas]

This looks like an extreme clash of gaming styles. Neither style is "wrong", per se, but they are not compatible with each other. You're going to have to do one of two things:
1) Explain your gaming style, with particular emphasis on the differences with his, and persuade him to give your style a try.
2) Remove him from your gaming group.

I would honestly be surprised if the first approach actually works, so you'll probably have to resort to the second. Technically there are also the options to adapt your own style to match his or to just tolerate his antics, but those are more likely to end up with no one (except maybe him) in the whole group having fun.

His style of play can be fun, but it needs a whole group to be on board with it.

[rot42]

It sounds like your friend is being a bad friend by putting you through this. It also sounds like you are not being clear on the difference between a suggestion that would be neat for the game you have planned and a suggestion that means a requirement unless there is a darned good reason. It can be difficult to tell a friend "no" when you really do have it in your power to allow him to do whatever, but it really is kinder to be clear and unapologetic.

That character concept would bug me if someone suggested it for my game. It sounds like an excuse to derail every roleplaying encounter by acting chaotic crazy. Or to make them all about him and how to deal with his "good roleplaying" that requires the rest of the party to solve inane non-problems. Obviously I do not know the guy or your group, but for me that is a big warning flag.

Look at the Beguiler race in Shining South. They get constant True Seeing, a sweet Hide bonus, and could easily be reskinned as a fox person.

Your friend is correct that at high levels he will need a huge amount of damage to keep up with the monsters, but there are legitimate ways of getting it. One option would be to just say that you plan to bring the campaign to its culmination at level ten or so. Blame it on being a new DM (this is, honestly, believable to the point of having a good chance of being true).

Require a character sheet from each of your players at every level. This is not an issue of honesty so much as it is being able to design encounters that the players will enjoy. If a monster has a save-or-die ability with a Will DC of 23, it is best not to throw it against a party of low Wisdom fighters. At the same time, if you did not remember that a particular class gets a sweet but situational ability at X level, how will you know to make sure that that situation comes up?

[Dairuga]

Sounds like he wants to play Skyrim in RPG form. :smallsigh:

If you are not going to scale everything to cater to the group (you shouldn't), I'd suggest you tell him that. Explain to him that wealthy and experienced people have access to items, spells and services a poor inexperienced brat probably does not have.

But, I think it's a lost cause. When he's telling you how to run your world in your game, there's little hope for improvement.

It sounds like you're being very nice with him - sit down with him and explain everything plainly. You're concerned he'll ruin the campaign. Explain why. If he doesn't understand, give examples. If he refuses to listen, kick him out of the group.

Edit: More of a personal touch: Don't tell him the healer is a higher level NPC. Never tell your players how/what something else is unless their character would know.
Examples include:
Spellcasting: Instead of saying "The Orc casts Magic Missile.", say "The Orc lets loose a volley of magical energy from his finger tips. The energy forms into dart-like shapes and strikes you straight in the stomach." (This also helps build atmosphere and make combat feel more alive). If they want to know it's a Magic Missile spell, have them roll Spellcraft and add "You identify the spell as a Magic Missile spell" or some such.
NPC's and Monsters: Don't tell your player the Healer is a Level X Y. Instead, he's an experienced and/or established healer. If you can't tell whether a Fighter has 30 or 15 HP, you surely can't tell if he's Level 4 or 3 either. A Fighter with 30 HP might look healthier and stronger, but always leave your players guessing (unless you're trying to make a point - using words like blinding light, awestriking presence and divine beauty when describing a high CR Angel will usually get the point across).

To the skyrim in RPG format, hah! Because all everyone does is rob magical places and loot their stuff, heh.

But yes.. I suppose the real problem boils down to me not wanting to lose him as a friend, or a player. If I do that... I do not get any chance to play with anyone. I suppose dire times, as well as a want to actually play the game makes me more malleable in terms of DMing, but still. It's either a bad game, or none at all.

THank you still, I am tempted to just say "Okay, you know what? Rememeber tha roll you did? The one you failed? Yeah, you are blind and have a strength score of 5 now.", and see how he deals with it. Andi f he doesn't like it; tough luck. That's what he gets for trying to rob a magic store as a level 1 character.

And yes, as for that personal touch; I am already doing that. There's no reason to give everyone free spellcraft checks, especially not the paladin and the rogue whom is spending his points elsewhere. And it is no fun, when someone asks for the Wolf's remaining HP. It's either not wounded at all, have a few scrapes, perhaps a few wounds; staggering in its gait, wobbling slightly, seeming to whimper and breathe heavily; appearing to be near death, or fallen; dying or dead.

But thank you still, for the suggestion. I think I will just have to sit him down, give him a proverbial smack for being the runt he is, and hope things just turn out for the best, I suppose.

[Dairuga]

That character concept would bug me if someone suggested it for my game. It sounds like an excuse to derail every roleplaying encounter by acting chaotic crazy. Or to make them all about him and how to deal with his "good roleplaying" that requires the rest of the party to solve inane non-problems. Obviously I do not know the guy or your group, but for me that is a big warning flag.

Look at the Beguiler race in Shining South. They get constant True Seeing, a sweet Hide bonus, and could easily be reskinned as a fox person.

That is a very good suggestion. So how does this beguiler race work? Does it have any LA at all, or somesuch? Does it have any weakness to make up for the constant True seeing?




Your friend is correct that at high levels he will need a huge amount of damage to keep up with the monsters, but there are legitimate ways of getting it. One option would be to just say that you plan to bring the campaign to its culmination at level ten or so. Blame it on being a new DM (this is, honestly, believable to the point of having a good chance of being true).


Yes. He needs a huge amount of damage, but temporary solutions are not good enough for him. I don't know of too many items, but I have memorized most of the magic item compendium to the point of at least knowing what most of the items do, at least vaguely, if someone simply names it. He either needs it permanently, or it won't work for him, because he won't have time to use it in combat once combat starts. It has to be on at all times, in case of further ambushes down the road. Or so he says.

And yes... I don't honestly know when the campaign will end, as I just imagined creating more and more plot hooks for the people until, well, people wanted to start new campaigns with new characters, but I suppose I could end it off early.





Require a character sheet from each of your players at every level. This is not an issue of honesty so much as it is being able to design encounters that the players will enjoy. If a monster has a save-or-die ability with a Will DC of 23, it is best not to throw it against a party of low Wisdom fighters. At the same time, if you did not remember that a particular class gets a sweet but situational ability at X level, how will you know to make sure that that situation comes up?

And yes, this part I know, and this part I do. I do want to be fair, at least, and give them a real challenge that they have a -chance- of doing. The same reason as to why I would not pitch a rogue and a scout trough "The temple of elements", that one of my friends from a prior group did. It is a majestic temple, with many spiders around, and of course, every room has elemental encounters. Elementals whom are immune to flanking, critical hits and sneak attacks. That was not fun.

And yes, Everyone should get a chance to at least -use- their flavour. Like an orc cheiftain carrying a set of keys that the stealthy rogue can pickpocket. Or actually making the enemies talkable to, if they know the appropriate language, and have any smart remarks that might convince others to act friendlier.

[GreenSerpent]

Just as a random suggestion, why not let him play the Kitsune but refluff it yourself?

I'd suggest the Catfolk from Races of the Wild as a base. Remove the CHA bonus and give it scent instead. That'd be moderately balanced for a LA+1 race, and if you dropped the natural armour bonus and lowered the DEX bonus to +2 then it'd be a decent LA+0 race.

[Aeryr]

I can remember a similar situation, once, in one of my earliest games. In that campaign we were a bunch of misfits trying to stop/delay a big goblin invasion to the kingdom. Another player, it was his first campaign, was playing a rogue and convinced me (playing swift hunter) to infiltrate into the goblin camp using a couple of invisibility scrolls (I don't remember the level but those were hard to get atm) so I say sure, we can make some ruckus or something. We infiltrate into the camp and while I am cutting the rope of some bows the rogue goes into the deepest of the camp. He enters the biggest tent and there he sees three drows. At that moment all of the other players are like, OH CRAP! RUN! RUN! RUN! What does he do? "I go to the richest looking drow and slide his hand into my pocket to get whatever is in there". The DM looks at him in the eye, takes his hand, and say "Are you SURE?". He says "Yes", we all facepalm and he does it, or tries, the drow moved just as he slide the hand into his pocket looked exactly where he should be (he was invisible atm) and moves his head with a negative.

The guy took the hint withdraw and eventually we had a really fun campaign. With some rogue shenanigans sure, but we all had fun and kept being good friends and playing after that.

So my 2 coppers keep having fun with your friends, but let him know that his character can die. You are going to make the encounters with a CR appropriate for his level, yes, but if he goes out of the way for fighting/attacking/stealing/bitching someone you are not going to reduce the CR/level/HD of your NPCs.

Another time, starting another campaign when we were level 3 or something our party was recruited for cleaning up a noble's summer house which was raided by some orcs. There was only one clause, don't go into the vault. Guess who went into the vault? We did. Sure we did. And there was pain. So much pain... there was almost a TPK. We ended being slaves to that noble because we broke into his vault and killed his pet/butler spider.

If you hint him that something is not a good idea once or twice and he still goes for it he should have a difficult time making it, but reward intelligence and wits. Maybe give him a portable hole when he acts nice, so he can get over his 9 STR.

[Dairuga]

Just as a random suggestion, why not let him play the Kitsune but refluff it yourself?

I'd suggest the Catfolk from Races of the Wild as a base. Remove the CHA bonus and give it scent instead. That'd be moderately balanced for a LA+1 race, and if you dropped the natural armour bonus and lowere

d the DEX bonus to +2 then it'd be a decent LA+0 race.

Trust me, I tried refluffing the Foxkin (The kitsune). I said that he could tune the Dex down to +2, Con to -2, for example, and suchlike. And that, like kobolds, the Kitsune could, perhaps, at level 11 (Where clerics gain their 5th level spells; True seeing), could perform a ritual akin to kobolds to attain such true sight, instead of starting with it.

The answer I got was "No, I want to keep it this way. I know; we could do a progression on the eyes. I can start with Detect magic, permanently. Then at level 3, it becomes Detect invisibility. At level 5 it can become True sight! That way it scales, and everyone is happy."

[Godskook]

And he says, very eagerly, that he wants to be his Kitsune (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kitsune_(3.5e_Race)). It is his own homebrew race, and I get that little niggly feeling that I am stepping into things that will end badly. So, I look over the Kitsune. +1 LA (I do not enjoy playing with LA classes in particular due to various reason (Special abilities that might unbalance the game, and due to the LA creatures being prone to dying off at level 1, when the rest of the party hits level 2-3).

Futher, he wants to play a 12-year old child Kitsune, but he said he really wanted me to waive the child-penalty, because the 12-year old thing was just for flavour, cause he liked playing Kids. It was so really fun to roleplay, and it added a lot of flavour, but the penalties really crippled him. Seeing as that was a good reason, I chose to disregard it. After all, it's just a flavour option. And he added that as a child, he's rather Ditzy and playful. But he's well-trained for his age, and he knows how to handle himself in combat. Like a child soldier. but outside of combat, he can be scared and a bit playful.

It goes on, as the Kitsune has +4 to DEX, as well as -2 to Con. Well, it's a +2 gain in Dex. It is obviously he is going to minmax Dexterity. Kitsunes also gain Dancing lights at will, and Permanent True seeing. As well as being a master of disguise, which makes them immune to other creature's True seeing and detect invisibility when they are trying to hide themselves.

I kept stating that I am new to DM'ing, and I would really, really like for this to be book-printed only, and to shy away from the Homebrewed things, but he goes on to say that "Don't worry, It's really balanced. The True vision is the only thing that's really good for them. And I really want to play this race.". I state that I am new, and not quite sure how to handle him, as my planned Bad guy is really high on Illusions and trickery (in order to escape on planned encounters, as well as to gain an edge on encounters; ambushes and such). The new player says "Don't you know D&D is supposed to have Multiple Bad guys? Make some more that don't rely on illusions!".

I say that.. It seems rather overpowered... And I would rather not want to give him extraordinary abilities that would ruin good roleplaying moments, to which he responds with "I can roleplay! I'm not going to power play or munchkin. I just want to be strong."

A couple of other handful things that the Kitsune gets, is the Scent feat for free, and low-light vision.

The Kitsune is overpowered because it both gets and defeats true seeing as a class ability, making him quite powerful with the right setup. However, if you either delete or nerf that one ability, it would then probably be +1 LA(Its not really any stronger than an Aasimar, probably weaker, what with the type-shenanigans outsiders can pull).


Furthermore, stats are rolled. 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 12. He pumps his fists in the air, even if I didn't see the rolls, explains that he's really lucky at dice, and proceeds to assign his stats.

Always always always watch them roll stats. I do. If anyone objects, tell them that you're not giving anyone 'special' treatment, this is a rule for everyone.


...I pointed out that I -really- want to play with book only rules, and hands him the official list of flaws. Vulnerable, Frail, Shaky, Noncombatant, etc. And I said to pick one that "Applies" to his character. And that it had to be relevant. (No picking noncombatant when he is only ever going to use a bow, etc.), and he goes "But that'd ruin my character! I need the feats, but taking a -2 to all ranged attacks will make him suck."

I really hate "flaws that are relevant" statement cause it is the DM metagaming to make the players 'pay' for an option. Roleplay-wise, a character who can't aim a bow but can swing a sword(Shaky) is going to grow up to be a Swordsman, not an Archer. The way I see it, there's only 3 'fair' ways to do it:

1.Don't allow flaws cause you don't like them.

2.Allow the flaws in the book blindly.

3.Come up with your own custom list, and allow carte blanche access.


Then I point out that, in order to use Skirmish, he has to move.... And in order to attack more times in one round, he has to use a Full-round action, needing both his attack and his movement action...

Actually, that's not entirely correct. Greater Many Shot(on his feat list you've already mentioned) allows him to attack multiple times as a standard action. It isn't a "full attack" so some attacks won't be included(like the one that Haste grants), but he *can* move then attack multiple times.


Plus, a full-round action takes the entire round. That means he cannot do other things, meaning no skirmishing.

Technically, a full-round action take an entire standard+move.


I tell him. "Well... You could get yourself a Belt of Battle. That would grant you an additional full round action.", and I am generally putting on a sheepish smile, trying to act.. as kind as I can, after shattering his dreams, it seemed. He looks it up. "BUt.. it has charges!" he exclaims loudly.

This was a good suggestion on your part. Another good one is a cleric dip + travel devotion.


And the gem, of course: "Gnoll cleric is a very bad combination. If you want to, I can help you make your cleric much better. I know of a Race that would make a much better cleric.

Gnoll clerics are fine for NPCs. Not incredibly optimized, but they're NPCs, they don't have to be. I have one in my campaign right now, and he's the most memorable villain in the setting so far.


Needless to say, that hit me rather hard. Granted, Garm only has 12 Charisma, which is essentially very bad for a cleric, as he is an ugly little Gnoll, so he is not exactly -wrong-. Clerics do make good meatshields... but still.

Clerics function fine without charisma, much like sorcerers function fine without intelligence.

---------

In general, your player's got some issues, and you seem to be ok. He's not understanding that optimization can stop once you've 'caught' the challenges you're DM is throwing at you. On your part, yeah, you need a bit more experience, but so do I, so its not really a big deal. You're handling it the right way, which is to talk it out, explain the rules, and seek outside help when you need it.

[Dairuga]

I can remember a similar situation, once, in one of my earliest games. In that campaign we were a bunch of misfits trying to stop/delay a big goblin invasion to the kingdom. Another player, it was his first campaign, was playing a rogue and convinced me (playing swift hunter) to infiltrate into the goblin camp using a couple of invisibility scrolls (I don't remember the level but those were hard to get atm) so I say sure, we can make some ruckus or something. We infiltrate into the camp and while I am cutting the rope of some bows the rogue goes into the deepest of the camp. He enters the biggest tent and there he sees three drows. At that moment all of the other players are like, OH CRAP! RUN! RUN! RUN! What does he do? "I go to the richest looking drow and slide his hand into my pocket to get whatever is in there". The DM looks at him in the eye, takes his hand, and say "Are you SURE?". He says "Yes", we all facepalm and he does it, or tries, the drow moved just as he slide the hand into his pocket looked exactly where he should be (he was invisible atm) and moves his head with a negative.

The guy took the hint withdraw and eventually we had a really fun campaign. With some rogue shenanigans sure, but we all had fun and kept being good friends and playing after that.

So my 2 coppers keep having fun with your friends, but let him know that his character can die. You are going to make the encounters with a CR appropriate for his level, yes, but if he goes out of the way for fighting/attacking/stealing/bitching someone you are not going to reduce the CR/level/HD of your NPCs.

Another time, starting another campaign when we were level 3 or something our party was recruited for cleaning up a noble's summer house which was raided by some orcs. There was only one clause, don't go into the vault. Guess who went into the vault? We did. Sure we did. And there was pain. So much pain... there was almost a TPK. We ended being slaves to that noble because we broke into his vault and killed his pet/butler spider.

If you hint him that something is not a good idea once or twice and he still goes for it he should have a difficult time making it, but reward intelligence and wits. Maybe give him a portable hole when he acts nice, so he can get over his 9 STR.

Haha, Yes. Yes indeed, those silly antics.
Oh trust me. Four times, I tried to convince him against it. Mr. Thistledown (Yes, my Cleric was named Thistledown) was an experienecd and medium-level cleric ( I explicitly said he was level 5, to state a power level example, to give a brief assumption of what he could do). I said, time and time again, "It is folly ro rob him. He might have magical traps. He is the only magical merchant in -town-, and do you honestly think he would leave his things unguarded? Seriously?", etc, etc.

Yet he went on. And he sprung the trap so easily, not even able to detect it on a d20, since the check is 28. And boom, that was it. He was supposed to have died right there; but I did not want that. 2d8 sonic damage, and he had 6 hp. I did a test roll, and it dealt 5 and 7 damage. Even halved down with a reflex save, it would have been 6 damage.

So I told him to do a fortitude save. He failed both checks, and rolled a 4. On blinding sickness. So he lost 4 strenght (leaving him at 5), and got blinded. He gave me the nice line, just a little while ago: "Place my character blind and i am not continuing this RP, For the simple reason that i will not find any more fun. Hes an archer, he wont be able to do anything. YOu are raging because i decided to go and attempt something." was his words, word for word.

[Maxios]

Yeah...this guy is the worst D&D player. You flat-out told him there would be traps, he still attempts to rob it, then he throws a fit when his "master plan" goes wrong? Get rid of him.

[Douglas]

He was supposed to have died right there; but I did not want that. 2d8 sonic damage, and he had 6 hp. I did a test roll, and it dealt 5 and 7 damage. Even halved down with a reflex save, it would have been 6 damage.
He's not dead until -10. Even if he failed the save, that's four rounds for the cleric to wake up, find him, and stabilize him with a Cure Minor Wounds. You could have had him wake up under heavy guard, having been just healed to consciousness (barely, only 1 hp), with a rather put out cleric (with high wisdom, max sense motive ranks, and a hefty circumstance bonus if the player tries to bluff) demanding that he explain himself while the guards threaten to drag him off to jail.

[Aeryr]

Then maybe seppuku and bringing a brother kitsune into the party would work just for this one. Remark: just for this one. You can use this to refluff the Kitsune race, as mentioned above Catfolk are good (IMO they are REALLY good replacing cha with scent could be a good option there (rather beneficial to the player), also the Lupin (almost everything your player wants, even to a bonus to spot, not true seeing) they are from dragon magazine compendium and are not broken. This way he also gets to reroll his states (in front of you) and allocate something better into strength. Or just give him scent and intuitive attack or something, telling him to pinpoint enemies by scent and then shoot at them, just rule of cool it and keep going.

[Dairuga]

He's not dead until -10. Even if he failed the save, that's four rounds for the cleric to wake up, find him, and stabilize him with a Cure Minor Wounds. You could have had him wake up under heavy guard, having been just healed to consciousness (barely, only 1 hp), with a rather put out cleric (with high wisdom, max sense motive ranks, and a hefty circumstance bonus if the player tries to bluff) demanding that he explain himself while the guards threaten to drag him off to jail.

Hah... That would be a rather nice situation, yes. If an enormous "BOOM" came from his door as the trap was triggered, that would have given him plenty of time to wake up, yes. And notice that his Glyph of warding (Triggered by monsterous humanoids walking trough the door; password being the bell overhead (Yes, really. as long as someone enters the normal way, opens the door, makes the bell ring, that satisfied the password for the glyph. He snuck himself in, opened it quiieeetly; silencenced the bell so it would make no noise, and then walked inside. Irony at its finest)) being triggered, and a dying humanlike child laying at his steps. Guards would be called, and a containment cell would be prepared for him fr when he wakes up. Albeit in my world, this small settlement is rather primitive, so other than stoning, there's not much they could do to the child. He does not exactly have any money, and there are no high-enough leveled wizards / Clerics to Geas the kid. That could have been fun.

Yes. My commoners throws rocks at humanoid monsters. It's wonderful.

[Dairuga]

Then maybe seppuku and bringing a brother kitsune into the party would work just for this one. Remark: just for this one. You can use this to refluff the Kitsune race, as mentioned above Catfolk are good (IMO they are REALLY good replacing cha with scent could be a good option there (rather beneficial to the player), also the Lupin (almost everything your player wants, even to a bonus to spot, not true seeing) they are from dragon magazine compendium and are not broken. This way he also gets to reroll his states (in front of you) and allocate something better into strength. Or just give him scent and intuitive attack or something, telling him to pinpoint enemies by scent and then shoot at them, just rule of cool it and keep going.


Hah, that would be a rather fun way to go about things. Bring in an exact same Kitsune, only wiser and better. No, that would be simply unfair now. But yes... as I said earlier, I did try to refluff the kitsune race, but he wanted nothing of it. He does not want it to change, he wants it exactly as it is. He wants his LA+1, he wants his +4 to Dex, he wants his Scent, and he wants his True sight. There is nothing to be done about that.

I do know about the lupins, but yes. They do not have true sight, so that's a no go. It needs to have true sight permanently. And he says that even if he makes a new character, he wants to use the same stats, cause they were so good.

The sad thing about this whole Rule of cool, is that the Scent explicitly states that with scent, he can know that something is within 30 feet, but he cannot use it to explicitly pinpoint their location. Just that they are near him, I think it was. But still, great suggestion.

----

And another random update, Just because I figured I could get in our final conversation into this thread. "The reason i didn't want this is because this is an event that will have a psychological impact on my character and this will force me to change how he sees things, something i really didn't want to do in the beginning when im still molding his personality to be sufficient."

So yes, that is his standpoint. It will give his character a psychological impact, so it cannot happen. Well, that's it, at least.

[hymer]

I can't help noticing you describe your gaming time with him as distinctly unfunny. Considering the bovine ballistics on his part, he doesn't seem to be having fun either (I could be wrong though). When you try to explain how things are in your game, he doesn't learn from it, he just argues and expects you to budge to him. He even seems to equate RAW with you trying to screw him over. I could understand it better if he was annoyed at a rule you made.
You guys are just not RP compatible as far as I can tell. You should be looking for a way to end this.

[Morbis Meh]

Personally this player doesn't respect you as a DM and feels it's their right to play your game the way they want to no matter hoe anyone else feels about the subject. The truly funny thing is that he isn't even that good at minmaxing, his problem would have been fixed with a single feat: travel devotion but that isn't important. If this person is supposed to be your friend then why is he trying to walk all over you? I would kick the player from the game you gave been more than fair to accomadate his wants and all he does is complain. How do your other players feel about him?

[inexorabletruth]

It sounds like you have a very difficult player to manage. Since he is your friend I understand why you want to keep him in the campaign, so I won't bother suggesting that he should've join, but I worry that he will single-handedly ruin your first experience as a DM.

So, here you go: My gift to you. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50887717/Golden%20Buttplug%20of%20Bitchiness.rtf)

It was the first house rule I ever wrote, and it has served me well over the years. It won't stop him from being a power-gaming munchkin, nor will it change his opinions about your style, story, or game philosophy, but it will help prevent him from ruining your game.

Ultimately though, it's up to you to reign him in. The DM role is kind of an alpha role, and you have to be strong enough to keep the players wrangled while still keeping the game fun. If you let your friend reshape your games' world, story, and rules as he sees fit, then you might as well let him be the DM because that's what he'd be doing... DM'ing.

I wish you the best of luck. There really isn't any more advice I could give beyond this.

[Kire_Nessumsar]

First I would make it clear that since it's your first time DMing you will keep things light. So no home-brew races or other crazy stuff. It's not about limiting him. It's about you being able to ease into being a DM. keeping things simple enables you to get the hang of stuff and slowly being able to include more and more advanced stuff.

Also I'd talk to him about the difference in him play-style vs your intended style. And if he can't or will match your intended style tell him that he most likely will not have fun in your game.
I find it hard to think this issue would ruin your friendship. especially if you talk it over nice and quiet.

[IdleMuse]

You're the GM; what you say goes. He's just gonna have to live with that if he wants to play with you, surely? It sounds like a really good game, don't let one player ruin it for everyone else.

And I'll add my voice to everyone saying that Kitsune is overpowered and unfun for the other players, especially when paired with a suspiciously good roll. This is the reason I stopped using rolled stats; amazing rolls are possible, even without le cheating, and no matter how a player gets them, they make the other players feel terrible.

It's gonna be hard to be diplomatic with this, but it might be worth just saying; I'm happy for you to try again, but the Kitsune don't fit in my setting, and your character got off to a bad start, so let's start again. Pick a race from *this list* and roll your stats in front of me, and we'll work from there. This is a roleplaying game not a statsplaying game, so don't worry about internet-inspired optimisation, just play a fun and interesting character.

[King Atticus]

I know this guy is your friend and I don't want to insult but to be blunt...this guy's a tool. As a player he has a right to ask the DM for stuff but once the answer is no he needs to learn how to alter his builds. It's your game dude, and while you need players to run it (so you shouldn't abuse this just because you can), your word is still law.

[Douglas]

So, here you go: My gift to you. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50887717/Golden%20Buttplug%20of%20Bitchiness.rtf)
What if the character happens to be a supremely charisma-focused build, and the player proceeds to thank you for the charisma bonus? Or even intentionally made the character in the first place with the deliberate goal of acquiring the buttplug?

[Namfuak]

There are plenty of suggestions to simply drop the dude from the group/talk to him etc, so I won't bother with that.

The Kitsune race's page on (shudder) dandwiki says "Eyes of the Fox: Kitsune are treated as being constantly affected by the spell true seeing as a magical ability. The kitsune is also immune to the effects of true seeing and is not detected when he invisible, being hidden by an illusion, etc.: Kitsune have a knack for seeing past any, if not all illusions and know how to bypass this true sight. "

If the writer had been a bit more precise with his wording, he most likely should have written the true seeing and immunity to true seeing as:

(Sp) Eyes of the Fox: At will, a Kitsune can duplicate the effects of true seeing as a spell-like ability.
(Su) Stealth (?) of the Fox: Kitsunes are immune to the effects of true seeing.

With this, the solution is clear - antimagic field will negate both abilities, as well as more "mundane" magical solutions like Glitterdust. Giving your big bads or their henchmen blindsight would work fairly well too. Considering that the only people with access to true seeing are going to be certain level 6 clerics and level six sorcerers/wizards, it wouldn't be outrageous for them to have high spot scores and sense motive scores. As well, to counter the fact that he has true seeing at will, make your big bads use Kitsunes as roguish henchmen, if they aren't one themself.

I have no idea how he would react to this though, so take this suggestion with a grain of salt. Also, Kitsune are specifically not Monstrous Humanoids. I don't know if your townspeople just assume he is because he isn't human, to be honest I kind of skimmed the backstory :smallredface:

[godryk]

I know this guy is your friend and I don't want to insult but to be blunt...this guy's a tool. As a player he has a right to ask the DM for stuff but once the answer is no he needs to learn how to alter his builds. It's your game dude, and while you need players to run it (so you shouldn't abuse this just because you can), your word is still law.

This.

I don't like making absolute claims regarding DMing (you should make decisions on a case by case basis) but personally, if a player is relentlessly trying to talk you into things you don't like or feel inappropriate for the game you are running, just say no. You never liked the kitsune race in the first place. You should have made clear what is allowed and what not, right after he mentioned his intention to join the game for the first time. You don't have to feel bad about it. These are the rules, if you don't like them, there's the door (or let's meet up to have a beer or play in someone else's game or whatever).

The whole thing feels like he's trying to take advantage of you. This is your first time at DMing, if you are taking experienced players, they'd better know what they are getting into. Period.

As a sidenote: 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 12... Really? I mean, players should always roll in front of you but... 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 12... Wow! Over my cold dead body.

[Voyager_I]

I will be extremely surprised if you can find a way to reconcile this, but I guess it can't hurt (much) to try.

In general, don't allow D&D Wiki as a source of homebrew. I'm under the impression that it's not filtered for quality at all, and much of what I've seen from it is wildly imbalanced. Dragon Magazine is also especially prone to game-breakers...which is saying something, given how many there are in Core to start with.


You need to straighten things out with your player. He's treating this like it's his world, and you're just there to run the encounters for him. Talk to him about how you would like your games to work, make sure he understands your perspective, and if you can't reach a compromise, let him walk away.

[Gavinfoxx]

Dragon Magazine is actually okay -- really, it isn't that bad. But dandwiki is terrible. Do not allow it. It is not filtered for quality of content in any way...

[inexorabletruth]

:smallamused:

The rule is there for three reasons:
1. To make a point
2. To provide a humorous and light-hearted solution to a problem
3. To be a preventative measure/punishment.

I have never had to use the house rule. I've only had to read it to my players. Still, if the tiny CHA bonus makes the players day in spite of the inherent penalties (displeasure of all the gods combined not being the least among them) then at least the campaign will get interesting fast.

[ThreeDSix]

This guy is throwing away an epic roleplaying - not to mention character building - opportunity.
A catlike creature that got blinded? Awesome. Part of the fun of D&D is adapting to the disabilities / drawbacks / unlucky situations that the characters get landed with.
I get the feeling your friend doesn't like losing, seeing as what happened with his foiled robbery attempt, and that can't be good for long term play.

Anyhow, as for you Kitsune going invisible, simple things like an encounter in a flooded basement or a bakery with a baker with a pot full of flower and a meat cleaver can take care of that. :)

Lastly, I'm sure you'll still be friends if things happen to go sour. In a campaign I was in a player argued with the DM over a failed jump check, as he had failed to take into consideration the fact that his character (a warforged) would be making the attempt on a ship, in rough seas, and the boat was banana shaped to boot. Anyway, the character tripped and the player argued that he should retake the roll as the warforged would have taken all the variables into consideration, even when he had not. Long story short, he was kicked from the campaign (third strike, you see), but he is still playing with us, no hard feelings.

[demigodus]

What if the character happens to be a supremely charisma-focused build, and the player proceeds to thank you for the charisma bonus? Or even intentionally made the character in the first place with the deliberate goal of acquiring the buttplug?

Depends on what kind of charisma bonus it is. Make it not stack with other conventional forms of charisma boosting, and it will no longer be that awesome. That said, I had that same thought when reading about the butt plug.

If a DM implemented that in the game, I might just ask to be allowed to start with the butt plug (since I wouldn't feel like being bitchy enough to actually acquire it).

[Rausdower]

Nothing much to say as all my thoughts have been stated. Mechanically though, had I been you, when he mentioned the scout's 'full attack or skirmish' problem I would have suggested the Skirmisher's Boots out of MIC. Free attacks twice a day and +2 dmg on skirmish for a cool 3k. Hell, his rogue now can use it for easier SA.

But his attitude sickens me. I say get harsh and penalize him if he makes a blunder or tries to control your world. If he throws a fit then tell him tough.

[killem2]

I got to about the stats he rolled and basically I'm calling him a cheater.

You also need to stand firm and tell him, NO HOME BREWED STUFF.

I allow HB in my stuff if I get to review it my players know that I AM the final decision maker on that. But they aren't asshats bringing me things like this guy is bringing.

If you are not going to tell him no, you should let it play, see if his character is messing with combat in a way that he is stealing all the show. If it is, start sending bigger badder enemies at him, because I assume if he looks like a child, most monsters are going to prey on what they SEE as the weakest.

[Giegue]

If he wants to play a Kitsune so badly then there IS actually an official Kitsune race. The catch? It's for pathfinder, not D&D 3.5e. However, Pathfinder was made to allow 3.5e content to be ported into it with little complications, so I see no reason why you can't backport some pathfinder content(I.E. the Kitsune race) to D&D 3.5e. Here's the Pathfinder Kitsune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/races-of-the-dragon-empires/kitsune) for you to look over. If you feel it is not balanced for 3.5e, you can easily amend that. Either way this Kitsune race will probably be less broken then the one he has, and it still fits the fluff.

As for how to deal with him, suggest that he play a fullcaster. If he likes being broken, a fullcaster should fulfill all his needs. Of course once he finds out just how broken fullcasters can be, you'll probably need to reign him in, or better yet, make sure he never actually realizes just how ungodly powerful fullcasters are. Using the pathfinder Kitsune race, I'd suggest a sorcerer(cha synergy and bonuses to enchantment spells.) or if he wants to be "rogue-like" a beguiler(No cha-synergy sans for some skills, but he gets skills and gets to be more like the rogue-ish characters he seems to like then a sorc.) There are, of course other options as well....

Either way, you should have a nice long discussion with him and if he still is a problem, you can either boot him from the group, or, if your feeling evil, let him make his broken builds only to totally tear them down in combat via the tools you have as a DM(broken monsters, DM-fiat ect..). If you punish him in-game for being cheap and he sees how he's targeted and dead while the rest of the party lives on, wins the combat and gets rewards out of it perhaps maybe he'll learn that there is more to the game then being the most HAXX PC in the party.

[Story Time]

I read the first post of this thread and two words came to mind.

"Naruto Complex."

There is approximately one way to end the situation. The GameMaster must tell the Player that he will not be allowed to play.

Seasoned GameMasters, even those who place emphasis on story and role-play, wouldn't put up with the kind of shenanary that I presume this Player to have. Making concessions will not help. The problem with the Player is the attitude. Perhaps Dungeons & Dragons is not the best game for him, but I doubt that your table and game play will improve before he has gone.

[killem2]

Ok brother.

I re-red the entire thread this time, so I apologize about not reading it the first time all the way through it was tough to read. (not what you typed just imagining this kind of player)

I'm not sure the age of this player, but it is either a case of immaturity or this person has real problems. If I was presented with this kind of player, I would bring it down to the level of when I have to talk to my children who are lashing out, so here it goes:

"You seemed to be getting really worked up over this and I am not here to get anyone worked up.

I am new to being a dungeon master. A lot of the things you are bringing to me I am not entirely comfortable with. I don't like home-brewed things to begin with an having them brought into the mix with me being new is making it very hard to balance with the very low-power campaign I have running right now.

I get that you don't want to die and my job as the DM despite your other experiences, is to make this challenging but not impossible. If you want to succeed beyond a shadow of a doubt, you need make the best character possible but with in the reason of the official books.

Keep in mind, I balance the encounters to make the game enjoyable for you. This is not a chess game between you and me or the group and me. I need you to understand that if you want to play in this campaign, you need to stick to the official books. There are plenty of prestige classes that have many aspects of power to them to choose from.

Finally, and this is very important to me, I need you to calm down when you are talking about the game with me. Please remember this is just a game.

Now, lets take a breath, start over, lets start from the beginning, get your d6, sit down with me, lets roll it and see what you get and think of what the best way for you to go is, then we can move to flaws and races and all of that. Ok?" (I think this is best because it gives you a way to monitor the rolls)

That's the best I got.



EDIT:

OP can I ask, what method for stats did you use and how old is this person?

Almost crying?

What is he like 12?