[PF] This is why we can't have nice things! (silly build)

[grarrrg]

The goal with this build is to accumulate as many class features as possible that do nothing.
Normally they would do something, but through careful Multiclassing, Archetype selection, and general loop-hole-ness they wind up being worthless.

Full Progression Mount (minus Mount):
Start with 4 levels of Cavalier.
Take the Standard Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/standard-bearer) archetype. This gives you Banner at level 1, and delays Mount until level 5.
As you level put 6 ranks into the Ride skill.
At character level 7 take the Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat.
Your Character Level now determines how strong your non-existant Mount is.

Ki-Magic (minus Ki):
Add 5 levels of Monk.
Take the Martial Artist and Qinggong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) archetypes.
Qinggong allows us to trade away Monk features in exchange for "Ki-spells".
Martial Artist trades away our Ki pool (and lets us be any alignment).
At 5th level (the earliest we can get a Ki spell), we trade away High Jump for....let's say Scorching Ray, because it costs 2 Ki points to use.

Da Bomb! (minus Bombs) [thank you GreenZ]:
This requires 2 classes and *works by RAW but not by RAI*.
Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) Alchemist loses Bombs and gains Sneak Attack.
Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber) Wizard loses Arcane Bond, but gains Bombs.
This one comes down to specific wording (hence the RAW/RAI disclaimer)
"an arcane bomber that becomes an alchemist does not gain that class’s bomb ability, nor does an alchemist that becomes an arcane bomber gain this bomb ability."
The ability calls out "alchemist", and not "existing Bomb ability".
So with 1 level of each, we have 0 bombs that do ?d? damage.

Bardic Performance (minus effect):
Pathfinder Chronicler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/pathfinder-chronicler) PrC, take 3 levels, you now count as a level 1 Bard for Rounds of Performance.
You do not however gain a Performance ABILITY until level 4.
Don't take level 4.

Spellcasting (minus spells) [thank you GreenZ]:
*For the sake of arguement, our casting ability score is high enough to normally allow us to cast spells. None of this "Cleric with 8 Wis" stuff.*
While this does gain spell casting it... well...you'll see:
We start with 1 level of Bladebound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound) Magus. A Bladebound Magus "cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class".
Next, we take a level of Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch) (any archetype is fine, special mention to Beast Bound though).
Witches cannot prepare spells without their familiar.
Bladebound says we don't get a familiar, EVER.
Witch cannot prepare spells, EVER. (can still cast from Scrolls and whatnot though).

Spellcasting (minus spells), Prestige Version:
There are 3 prestige options that grant "+1 spell casting" without strictly requiring spell casting to qualify for them (technically 4, but the 4th gives you 1 "pity" slot for each spell level):
Demoniac (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/demoniac), Chaotic Evil, no casting at 1st, highest entry cost (skills@7/feats)
Diabolist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/diabolist), 1-step of Lawful Evil, HAS casting at 1st, mid entry cost (skills@5, cost of a scroll)
Souldrinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/souldrinker), Neutral Evil, no casting at 1st, cheapest entry cost (skills@5)
These are, of course, best used without the Bladebound-Witch mentioned above (because we could always just increase the Magus casting).



We can ride our non-mount, while spending Ki to fire zero Scorching Rays, while having Witch slots with no Witch spells, while using Performance to do nothing, while not chucking bombs at things.
Is there anything else we can add to not have?


BONUS!
Broken Feat Section!
Prone Shooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/prone-shooter-combat)!
Monkey Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-lunge-combat)!

[hamiltond465]

What exactly makes those feats broken?

[grarrrg]

What exactly makes those feats broken?

Prone Shooter: It removes the penalties for firing a Ranged weapon while prone.
Normal: There ARE NO PENALTIES for firing a Ranged weapon when prone (there are some Ranged weapons you CAN'T fire while prone, but that is a different problem).

Monkey Lunge: It activates with a Standard Action, and only lasts until the end of your current turn.
No Standard > No Attacks > No Use.

[hamiltond465]

hah, alright.

Are crossbows and firearms included in the 'things that cannot be fired while prone' category?
If so, I'd assume that the penalty fixed by the feat is that you can't use them while prone.

[Crasical]

They are not. You can fire a firearm or crossbow from prone.

[GreenZ]

I absolutely love this idea and I've got some 'combos' for you.


Take Vow of Fasting and then become an Alchemist. You now have both Extracts and Mutagens that you can't drink.

Then, be a Vivisectionist Alchemist and take levels of the Arcane Bomber Wizard afterwards, your levels for both classes stack for your bomb damage but neither class gives you bombs (Since Arcane bomber doesn't give you bombs if you first have levels of Alchemist.)

or

Be a Bladebound Magus then become a Witch, you cannot have a familiar due to Bladebound and thus cannot prepare nor cast your witch spells. Be a Beast-bonded witch for even more cruelty.

On that note, be a Bladebound and Soul Forger Magus. You now get both the black blade and a weapon as an arcane bond but can no longer use Spell Combat and Spellstike with your black blade anymore.



Edit: Just noticed, be a Bladebound Witch and one of the PrC that gives +1 casting level you mentioned to add more levels to your impossible to cast spells.

[Coidzor]

hah, alright.

Are crossbows and firearms included in the 'things that cannot be fired while prone' category?
If so, I'd assume that the penalty fixed by the feat is that you can't use them while prone.
They are not. You can fire a firearm or crossbow from prone.

It's a not uncommon snark topic to say that rather than just get rid of the feat or have it do something useful, once Paizo catches it, they'll just apply a penalty to crossbows and firearms while prone so that it does something.

[grarrrg]

I'm thinking this thread is going to turn into "Paizo is horrible with ability wording" pretty quickly...


Take Vow of Fasting and then become an Alchemist. You now have both Extracts and Mutagens that you can't drink.

Very interesting, but I just noticed something that may render it moot.
"A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows."
Martial Artist trades away Still Mind, so can we still take Vows even if we never gain the thing we don't get?
If so, BONUS!


Then, be a Vivisectionist Alchemist and take levels of the Arcane Bomber Wizard afterwards, your levels for both classes stack for your bomb damage but neither class gives you bombs (Since Arcane bomber doesn't give you bombs if you first have levels of Alchemist.)

WOW is Arcane Bomber horribly worded.
"This ability stacks with the alchemist bomb ability to determine the level of bomb damage, but an arcane bomber that becomes an alchemist does not gain that class’s bomb ability, nor does an alchemist that becomes an arcane bomber gain this bomb ability. "

So our Bomb ability stacks with their Bomb ability, but they DON'T GET a bomb ability because we already have one? So it stacks with nothing?
lolwut?


Be a Bladebound Magus then become a Witch, you cannot have a familiar due to Bladebound and thus cannot prepare nor cast your witch spells. Be a Beast-bonded witch for even more cruelty.

Delightfully pointless. In it goes.


On that note, be a Bladebound and Soul Forger Magus. You now get both the black blade and a weapon as an arcane bond but can no longer use Spell Combat and Spellstike with your black blade anymore.

There is a simple work around.
Declare your Black Blade as your Arcane Bond.
"can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item."


Edit: Just noticed, be a Bladebound Witch and one of the PrC that gives +1 casting level you mentioned to add more levels to your impossible to cast spells.


Hi, my name is Doug, and I can not cast 3rd level spells.
So? There are lots of classes that can't cast 3rd level spells.
I know, but I can REALLY not cast them.

Of course, you COULD just take more levels of Witch to have more unusable slots...

[Benly]

Monkey Lunge: It activates with a Standard Action, and only lasts until the end of your current turn.
No Standard > No Attacks > No Use.

It is theoretically possible to get "use" out of Monkey Lunge in the sense that it is possible to use it to make an attack at reach without sacrificing AC (as opposed to, for example, this ever being worth doing.) For instance, a character with Panther Style can make a retaliatory unarmed strike as a swift action (free action with Panther Claw) against an enemy that makes an AoO for her movement through its threatened area. A character with Panther Style and Monkey Lunge could therefore activate Monkey Lunge and move to provoke an AoO from an enemy with reach, resulting in a situation where her retaliatory strike benefits from the reach without taking the -2 penalty to AC.

That said, she'd have probably been better off using normal Lunge and still having her standard action to make a regular attack with plus an extra feat (she can spend it on Dodge if she's really worried about that AC hit.) But hey, it's not theoretically a completely dead feat, and that makes it better than Prone Shooter!

Regarding dead feats, special props to Ability Focus (Constrict) which has literally no effect except for being a prerequisite for Final Embrace Horror and Final Embrace Master.

[navar100]

Monkey Lunge: It activates with a Standard Action, and only lasts until the end of your current turn.
No Standard > No Attacks > No Use.

I think that's a matter of semantics. With Lunge, you can make a full attack at increased threat range for -2 AC. Monkey Lunge means you don't take the -2 AC upon attacking but you can only do a standard action one attack. Useful if you move more than 5ft that round so you only get a standard action attack anyway, but still inferior to regular Lunge allowing for a full round attack.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your application of the feat to the proposed build.

[Benly]

I think that's a matter of semantics. With Lunge, you can make a full attack at increased threat range for -2 AC. Monkey Lunge means you don't take the -2 AC upon attacking but you can only do a standard action one attack. Useful if you move more than 5ft that round so you only get a standard action attack anyway, but still inferior to regular Lunge allowing for a full round attack.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your application of the feat to the proposed build.

The problem is that Lunge says "You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made." Activating Lunge is something you do on your turn before any attacks are made rather than as part of an attack action. Because you must decide to use the ability before attacks are made, it's clearly not part of making an attack.

This is a trivial distinction as long as it's a non-action, but it means that Monkey Lunge's action-type change causes it to eat your action without actually making an attack.

Edit: Incidentally, this does mean you can use Lunge on rounds when you don't make an attack. For example, imagine that Character A has Lunge and wishes to cast a spell. Character B, standing 10 feet away, has readied a counterspell. Character A might choose to activate Lunge, increasing his reach such that B is now in her threatened area and forcing B to cast defensively or else provoke an AoO. If B then chooses to cast defensively and fails his defensive casting check, A has not made an attack this round but has used Lunge and benefited from it. If A has Monkey Lunge and is casting a quickened spell, she could even use Monkey Lunge "effectively" that round, but again it seems a bit of a waste.

[grarrrg]

Incidentally, this does mean you can use Lunge on rounds when you don't make an attack. For example, imagine that Character A has Lunge and wishes to cast a spell. Character B, standing 10 feet away, has readied a counterspell. Character A might choose to activate Lunge, increasing his reach such that B is now in her threatened area and forcing B to cast defensively or else provoke an AoO. If B then chooses to cast defensively and fails his defensive casting check, A has not made an attack this round but has used Lunge and benefited from it. If A has Monkey Lunge and is casting a quickened spell, she could even use Monkey Lunge "effectively" that round, but again it seems a bit of a waste.

Your first example doesn't work, because (either) Lunge only improves your reach during your turn. So the moment it becomes 'Character B's' turn they are no longer threatened.

[mikau013]

what about these feats:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general

The first is that if you succeed at overrunning someone, instead of actually doing that you can make a natural weapon attack. Instead of, you know making that attack in the first place and not spending a feat and an extra chance to fail.

The second you spend a standard action and if your enemy wants to attack you, it now gains power attack. That is if it meets all the requirements and fails it save.

[Benly]

Your first example doesn't work, because (either) Lunge only improves your reach during your turn. So the moment it becomes 'Character B's' turn they are no longer threatened.

The spell which is being threatened against is a counterspell, which is a readied action. The ready action description says "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." That is, it is not the counterspelling character's turn when he casts his counterspell, but still the casting character's turn.

The example applies as well to any other situation in which A wishes to prevent B from casting on A's turn, such as if B has immediate-action spells or readied non-counterspells.

[Cieyrin]

Here's a stealth broken feat: Improved Two-Weapon Feint, does the same thing as Two-Weapon Feint but with heavier prerequisites. Point this exists? I don't have a clue. The 'Improved' version doesn't even reference the supposed predecessor.

[Benly]

Here's a stealth broken feat: Improved Two-Weapon Feint, does the same thing as Two-Weapon Feint but with heavier prerequisites. Point this exists? I don't have a clue. The 'Improved' version doesn't even reference the supposed predecessor.

They're not quite the same. Improved Two-Weapon Feint actually changes the feint mechanics by saying "If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn." Under normal feint rules, the feint only affects one attack you make, and that attack must be on or before your next turn.

Due to the requirements of Improved Two-Weapon Feint, you are guaranteed to have more than one attack remaining in the round when you use it on a full attack. Therefore, you get the benefit of one feint on multiple attacks, which you wouldn't with regular feinting or non-improved Two-Weapon Feint. The lack of Two-Weapon Feint as a prereq for the improved version is a weird oversight, but it's not a broken feat at all.

[Cieyrin]

They're not quite the same. Improved Two-Weapon Feint actually changes the feint mechanics by saying "If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn." Under normal feint rules, the feint only affects one attack you make, and that attack must be on or before your next turn.

Due to the requirements of Improved Two-Weapon Feint, you are guaranteed to have more than one attack remaining in the round when you use it on a full attack. Therefore, you get the benefit of one feint on multiple attacks, which you wouldn't with regular feinting or non-improved Two-Weapon Feint. The lack of Two-Weapon Feint as a prereq for the improved version is a weird oversight, but it's not a broken feat at all.

Hmm, perhaps you're right, then. Subtle difference is subtle, also too long staring at feats while continuing work on the Gunslinger's Handbook.

On the other hand, it's to our gain, since that saves us a feat since you don't need the original if you can wait to get that far. I suppose the first isn't actually that good, either, since Improved Feint and attacking with your best weapon costs the same feat wise and is more generally applicable, since you can use it when you don't have two weapons.

[rkyeun]

You want to waste class abilities? Awesome, here we go. Ready?
Fighter 1 / Monk 1.
Boom. Every ability wasted.

[The Random NPC]

You want to waste class abilities? Awesome, here we go. Ready?
Fighter 1 / Monk 1.
Boom. Every ability wasted.

How? As a Monk 1 you can still use Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and a bonus feat from a small list. As a Fighter 1 you gain a bonus combat feat. If you wear armor you can lose Flurry of Blows, so I guess you lose out on one of the two... but that isn't every ability.

[grarrrg]

How? As a Monk 1 you can still use Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and a bonus feat from a small list. As a Fighter 1 you gain a bonus combat feat. If you wear armor you can lose Flurry of Blows, so I guess you lose out on one of the two... but that isn't every ability.

The point is that Fighter gets Martial Weapon prof. and Heavy Armor prof.
Most (not all, but most) Monk abilities require you be Unarmored, and either fighting with your Fists, or using a 'Monk' weapon.
Thus the 2 classes features become (mostly) exclusive to each other.

(you also forgot about the Wis-to-AC bonus when unarmored)

[CTrees]

Dont' forget to take some traits. For example, Magical Lineage doesn't specify that you have to be able to cast spells to take.

[The Random NPC]

The point is that Fighter gets Martial Weapon prof. and Heavy Armor prof.
Most (not all, but most) Monk abilities require you be Unarmored, and either fighting with your Fists, or using a 'Monk' weapon.
Thus the 2 classes features become (mostly) exclusive to each other.

(you also forgot about the Wis-to-AC bonus when unarmored)

I did forget the Wis-to-AC bonus, but since one of the weapon groups is Monk, I don't really see that as a loss.