Designing FR iconics correctly

[Talya]

In another thread I mentioned how the many Forgotten Realms iconics, if statted out at all, are generaly completely ineffective in build (because WotC doesn't even do the most basic of optimizing.)

Now, love them or hate them, how would you try to build (basic build ideas, no need to stat them out completely) some of the more common FR characters to make them more true to the descriptions of how they fight in the books? Use all resources, including (and especially) Tome of Battle, to better emulate some of the fancy combat maneuvers described.

For example, everyone's most hated Drow "ranger" - Drizz't Do'urden, requires Ranger, Warblade or Swordsage, and Dervish (CWar) in order to weild those scimitars the way he is described (with Dervish Dance filling in for his "rage" ability).

[Psyren]

I think this is a great idea, but I don't know enough about what many of the characters can do to really contribute.

I do think the retraining rules from PHB2 should be included. That could more accurately model all the random soul-searching and dabbling that, say, Elminster was doing before he settled on Wizardry, without kludging his build up with assorted dips in rogue and shepherd. So something like: Character X has Class Y until {life-changing event}, then they retrained to Class Z.

There are a couple of odd cases too - didn't Cadderly for instance gain like 10 levels in the course of one book?

[Talya]

There are a couple of odd cases too - didn't Cadderly for instance gain like 10 levels in the course of one book?


Yes, and Cadderly would still require the "Chosen of Deneir" template that they gave him in order to be able to spontaneously cast just about any spell existant.

[Alleran]

I'd do Elminster as something on the order of the following:

Fighter 1 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Dweomerkeeper 6 / Archmage 5 / Arcane Lord 5

It keeps his spellcasting intact (29th level arcane caster), boosts his divine spellcasting to 13th level (which falls in line with some divine spells he cast as a cleric of Mystra in one book), and gives him prestige classes that fit with his concept (Archmage because he's an archmage, Dweomerkeeper for the Mystra link, and Arcane Lord for the "epic power" aspect). It also manages to keep his level at 35, which is IIRC what he's at in the ELH. I'd also add Epic Spellcasting to his build somewhere, because he sorely needs it.

For the Simbul, by contrast:

Sorceress 10 / Incantatrix 13 / Archmage 2 / Arcane Lord 7

Short, sweet, and while there's not a lot of versatility in spell selection (sorcerer, after all), she picks up plenty of metamagic firepower by way of Incantatrix, enough to turn almost anything she faces into ash. Arcane Lord supplements it for further epic-level boosts to her raw power, and she would use Knowstones and Spell Knowledge to add new spells to her list. It fits with her general philosophy - she has more raw power than Elminster does (higher caster level, tendency to nova with her metamagic abuse for mailman-level shenanigans), but Elminster will have a much wider spell selection to play with.

[Talya]

Hmm. Jar'laxle as a factotum rather than a rogue is an appealling idea, if not completely accurate as he demonstrates no spellcasting ability.

Rogue has always felt...wrong for the guy. He's far more bard than rogue, at least in style.

[Cieyrin]

For the Simbul, by contrast:

Sorceress 10 / Incantatrix 13 / Archmage 2 / Arcane Lord 7

Short, sweet, and while there's not a lot of versatility in spell selection (sorcerer, after all), she picks up plenty of metamagic firepower by way of Incantatrix, enough to turn almost anything she faces into ash. Arcane Lord supplements it for further epic-level boosts to her raw power, and she would use Knowstones and Spell Knowledge to add new spells to her list. It fits with her general philosophy - she has more raw power than Elminster does (higher caster level, tendency to nova with her metamagic abuse for mailman-level shenanigans), but Elminster will have a much wider spell selection to play with.

I believe the reason the current stats for the Simbul included Wish on her list was explicitly so she could change her spells known, which I believe was included in her published tactics.

[Drelua]

As far as Forgotten Realms goes, I've only read R.A. Salvatore books, so I'll stick to those. Drizzt has been debated to death, so I'll focus on the Cleric Quintet since I've never really seen any debate there.

Cadderly is pretty obviously a Cleric of Oghma, probably with improved grapple and a lot of craft and knowledge skills, probably knowledge devotion too. That's the only way I can think of to use his obviously high intelligence score. He might have a couple of Monk levels to since he didn't use any spells in the first book, but I'm not sure that really suits him. He'd be into low epic levels by the end of The Ghost King, since he was casting epic spells by the end of it. Maybe maxing out at Cleric 21?

Danica, unfortunately, can only be a Monk since she uses stunning fist, slow fall, diamond body, and a few other abilities that can only come from a monk as far as I know. She wouldn't have fighter levels, unlike the official stats say, although I'm quite alright with the ability scores they gave her. I know I've seen a feat somewhere that let's you flurry with non-monk weapons, maybe Unorthodox Flurry, which she'd have for her daggers. It might have been from Dragon, I'm not sure. At least Monk 11, maybe a few levels of Swordsage or something to top it off.

Pikel, definitely my favourite character from the series, would probably be a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Druid, or maybe just a Druidic Avenger. He doesn't get mad too often, but when he does, it gets bloody. Nobody kills his snake and gets away with it. :smallmad: Or happens to be allied with guy who killed his snake. :smallfurious: I'd probably go with some sort of multiclassing since he doesn't have spells at the beginning, and even when he does, it isn't many. Although he does get tree stride, and that's a 5th level spell. He doesn't have wild shape, but I can't think of any ACFs that get rid of that. I'm not sure what they were thinking giving him 15 CHA, I'd probably give him about half that. He's not exactly personable. I'd probably go with straight Druidic Avenger 10ish.

I'm don't know about Ivan, probably a Fighter or a Warblade. Something that just hits things, and nothing else.

That's my take on the main characters at least. I'm not much of an optimizer, but then you probably already knew that. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Talya, have you read the Sellswords? He doesn't cast any spells in it, but he does use a wand that he made him self. It's an illusory fireball that he uses to kill a bunch of people that are surrounding him without burning himself, since he knows it isn't real. That's some spellcasting, but I don't think it has anything to do with the Factotum's abilities.

Also, thank you Psyren for solving my issues with Cadderly and Pikel having no spells at the beginning. Retraining solves everything!

[Talya]

Cadderly is pretty obviously a Cleric of Oghma Deneir.

Not Oghma. Was never Oghma.

[Yuukale]

I'd say jarlaxle is a daring outlaw (rogue/swash) with umd maxed out.

as for drizzt, definitely a ranger dervish with c.champion variant where he gets bonus feats instead of spells. Are there any pounce-dervish dance shenanigans?

[Drelua]

Not Oghma. Was never Oghma.

Right. *facepalm* Now I feel stupid. I knew something was wrong with that name, now I know that it wasn't the spelling. Stupid friend, borrowing that book so I can't be bothered to check.

[Morty]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of those weird single levels iconics have are supposed to represent stuff they've done in books.
Either way, how do you think you would stat out Artemis Entreri? As it is, he suffers from much the same problem as Drizzt I think, in that his damage is simply too low. I'd say a Rogue/Swashbuckler, but in the one book I read he favoured a longsword for open combat and it's not finesseable.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Jar'laxle as a factotum rather than a rogue is an appealling idea, if not completely accurate as he demonstrates no spellcasting ability.

Rogue has always felt...wrong for the guy. He's far more bard than rogue, at least in style.

Sublime Bard?

[Aharon]

I did these quite a while ago. The goal was usable characters that reflect most, but not all of the content of novels etc.

Elminster:
Fighter 1/Cleric 3/Wizard 10/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 3/Loremaster 10
Storm Silverhand:
Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Sorcerer 8/Virtuoso 10/Spellsword 8

[Kuulvheysoon]

What I'd really like to see is a (proper) statted out version of Araevin Teshurr.

Actually, while I'm wishing...

Aoth Fezim (pre-Spellplague)
Any character from 'Darkvision' (their names escape me... specifically, the two Deep Imaskari characters)
Rhyn Thardyn (protagonist of Ghostwalker)

[Psyren]

Also, thank you Psyren for solving my issues with Cadderly and Pikel having no spells at the beginning. Retraining solves everything!

You're welcome, but Cadderly did actually cast spells in the first book - such as when he blessed the water that he immersed the Chaos Curse bottle in once he found it. He just didn't embrace his cleric side very much in the beginning, seeing himself as more of a secular scholar.

[Yuukale]

What I'd really like to see is a (proper) statted out version of Araevin Teshurr.

I'd say Elven Generalist with craft wand feats (perhaps something of artificer), incantatrix (he's a portal scholar, filling incant. fluff.), and archmage.
there's the elven high mage prc, but from what I've read it really sucks :/

[Drelua]

You're welcome, but Cadderly did actually cast spells in the first book - such as when he blessed the water that he immersed the Chaos Curse bottle in once he found it. He just didn't embrace his cleric side very much in the beginning, seeing himself as more of a secular scholar.

I had completely forgotten about that :smallredface:. Still, he was probably higher than level 1 at that point, so he probably started with levels other than cleric since he actually managed to survive all that stuff. It was also near the end of the book, and I think he was just starting to get in touch with magic at that point. Regardless, the point still stands with Pikel, unless there's something else I'm forgetting about. He could have retrained from Barbarian to Druidic Avenger.

[Cieyrin]

You're welcome, but Cadderly did actually cast spells in the first book - such as when he blessed the water that he immersed the Chaos Curse bottle in once he found it. He just didn't embrace his cleric side very much in the beginning, seeing himself as more of a secular scholar.

Cadderly is the definition of Cloistered Cleric. :smallwink:

[bloodtide]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of those weird single levels iconics have are supposed to represent stuff they've done in books.
Either way, how do you think you would stat out Artemis Entreri? As it is, he suffers from much the same problem as Drizzt I think, in that his damage is simply too low. I'd say a Rogue/Swashbuckler, but in the one book I read he favoured a longsword for open combat and it's not finesseable.

I've always liked the idea that Artemis had a lot of sneak attack damage. That way it made sense when, in just about every book, some character would be all scared of him holding a dagger. But a dagger (even a magic vampire one) is not much of a threat even to a 1st level character, you have to put a lot of effort into doing even 10 points of damage. In the FRCG Artemis is a lowly Rog 4 and can do 1d4+7 with his defending? vampire dagger(really the vampire dagger is an iconic part of the character, yet someone at WotC missed that?). But still 8-11 damage is not so great for a single dagger strike, but add in +6d6 sneak attack damage and then Artemis can kill a low level character with one single hit.

Swashbuckler seems to fit Artemis's fighting style, but the swashbuckler class sure does not have many abilities that he can make use of though. But Artemis could be a Scout! He moves around a lot in combat, scouts get skirmish for more damage and a whole bunch of movement abilities. And one thing Artemis is known for is moving around a lot.

So maybe Scout 12/Rogue 5/Assassin 1

[Yora]

Cadderly is the definition of Cloistered Cleric. :smallwink:
With that I completely agree.

Maybe even the origin? Except for a non-combat cleric, the alternate class has several extra additions that all fit him to a t.

A character I love a lot is Danifae Yauntyrr from War of the Spiderqueen, even with so much else being wrong about it and what happened to her after the series.
Chosen of Lolths sounds a bit like Mary Sue, but she has proven throgh the whole series, that she qualifies for that position and earned it.
And Pharaun, but he's just a straight up wizard and not of interest to this thread.

But Danifae as a Cleric 13/Rogue 2/Blackguard 2, which I believe are the "offical" stats doesn't make any sense. I think there's a lot more rogue in there, and where does blackguard come from? :smallconfused:

[Talya]

Danica as an unarmed swordsage is rather appealling.

[Yora]

Oh yes, very much so. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Cadderly is the definition of Cloistered Cleric. :smallwink:

Yes of course, and he certainly retrained into it fully between books 2 and 3. But before that he was either very low level, or had a very scattered build.

Elfsong: I'd say Arilyn Moonblade was Swordsage. Danilo is probably Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge.

[Drelua]

The more I think about it, the more I realize Danica doesn't really need monk. A lot of the iconic class abilities that she uses can be replicated with other classes, skills and feats. This probably isn't news to anyone other than me, but resisting Druzil's poison could be Autohypnosis if she gets it as a class skill, especially since she didn't seem to be flat-out immune to it, she just forced it out of her body later. Smashing a rock with her face could be a Stone Dragon Strike instead of ki strike (adamantine), and I'm sure there's a maneuver that would let her stun people, not that there's anything stopping her from just taking stunning fist or a monk dip.

She does have slow fall, but I'm not sure if it was supposed to be infinite in The Ghost King since she still seemed to take damage. Monk 4/Unarmed Swordsage X looks like a pretty good fit to me. That gets her slow fall, ki strike, +4 to all of her saves and fast movement. Maybe add about 4 levels of psychic warrior for Lion's Charge and Autohypnosis, among other things. Obviously she wasn't psionic in the books, but if you choose powers carefully, it should fit well within the fluff of a Monk, and it adds up to some pretty good wisdom synergy.

One thing though: by RAW, ignoring the light armour problem, would she get WIS to AC twice? That seems like it would be good for making her actually hard to hit without much equipment. What do you think? Is this a decently good build for her, or am I way off-base?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Entreri seems pretty definitely Rogue/Swashbuckler into Assassin EDIT: and Invisible Blade, to me. His feats all go into TWF and feinting/flat-footing opponents, his levels all go into getting per-attack damage. You could maybe justify a Swift Hunter build on flavor, but he's clearly a TWF specialist and that doesn't combine well with movement without some real, true cheese.

Yeah, I've only read the Drizzt novels, so I'm only pitching in for them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Entreri seems pretty definitely Rogue/Swashbuckler into Assassin, to me. His feats all go into TWF and feinting/flat-footing opponents, his levels all go into getting per-attack damage. You could maybe justify a Swift Hunter build on flavor, but he's clearly a TWF specialist and that doesn't combine well with movement without some real, true cheese.

Yeah, I've only read the Drizzt novels, so I'm only pitching in for them.

I dunno... Artemis seems more Thug (SA variant)/swashbuckler to me.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I dunno... Artemis seems more Thug (SA variant)/swashbuckler to me.

True, he's far more interested in Sneak Attack damage than the rest of the rogue skillset. Does the SA-variant thug still get hide and move silently?

EDIT: SRD says no. That's rather silly. I guess it still works if he goes Invisible Blade, then Assassin. Only has to spend cross-class ranks on Sense Motive, which is frankly a smart thing to do no matter what your class if you're a merc in Calimshan.

Sneak-Attack-Thug-Fighter 6/Invisible Blade 5/Assassin X to get him up to Drizzt's current ECL, I guess.

[Kuulvheysoon]

True, he's far more interested in Sneak Attack damage than the rest of the rogue skillset. Does the SA-variant thug still get hide and move silently?

EDIT: SRD says no. That's rather silly.

Unfortunately, no.

Of course, the default Thug doesn't get those skills either. They only add Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local) and Sleight of Hand to their skill list.

SA variant and Thug aren't mutually exclusive - one gives up armor profs while the other gives up bonus feats (for SA).

Maybe Urban Ranger would work better (but that leaves you short on SA...)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Unfortunately, no.

Of course, the default Thug doesn't get those skills either. They only add Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local) and Sleight of Hand to their skill list.

SA variant and Thug aren't mutually exclusive - one gives up armor profs while the other gives up bonus feats (for SA).

Maybe Urban Ranger would work better (but that leaves you short on SA...)

I edited Invisible Blade into this hypothetical build, which helps a lot with the stealth skill requirements. And feinting.

Swashbuckler could replace three levels of SA-Thug-Fighter, but it's hit or miss since it only applies to his offhand damage when he's using a longsword/dagger, which he typically does. Honestly, the damn longsword is the worst part of his build; ruleswise, he'd be a lot more effective with two daggers.

[Edenbeast]

I believe the idea is that they represent "real" people, like some decisions are better than others, but make a person who he is nevertheless. Maybe it was to inspire players to think the same way.. The average player however has a tendency to optimize. Why? I don't know. It could be a fear of monsters..
I wipe my butt with optimized toilet paper, don't like to get my hands dirty.

[Alleran]

Jarlaxle probably has swashbuckler levels somewhere in his build. Entreri mentions that Jarlaxle favours that type of fighting style, and that it's one that Entreri himself thinks is inferior and clumsy (or some variant of that - bottom line is, he hates it).


I believe the reason the current stats for the Simbul included Wish on her list was explicitly so she could change her spells known, which I believe was included in her published tactics.
Yes, I know that's one of the reasons she has it. She could well still use Wish for that purpose in a different build, but can supplement it with Knowstones in order to avoid spending 5000xp every time she wants to change her spell selection (unless she has it as one of her Chosen SLAs, but I don't believe that's the case).


What I'd really like to see is a (proper) statted out version of Araevin Teshurr.
At a guess, based on what I can remember offhand from that novel trilogy:

NG male sun elf Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight 4 / Olin Gisir 2 / Loremaster 2

He seemed to primarily use evocation magic, but supplemented it with at least basic combat skills. He also knew quite a bit about old elven ruins, portals and similar magic, represented by his Olin Gisir and Loremaster levels. Other feats and bonus feats would have a slant towards item creation. Regarding his character level, the adventuring he did in the first novel or two helped quickly boost him in an upwards direction, and he likely took a level or two of Archmage in the process (Mastery of Elements and/or Spell Power seem like good picks for his casting style). He gains the Celestial creature template from a ritual he performs, and picks up Epic Spellcasting as a result of being "forced" from 16th-17th level up to 20th/21st level when he wore the Dlardrageth selu'kiira (it was basically an artifact that accelerated him through the levels). No levels in Elven High Mage, I would say.

[Morty]

I edited Invisible Blade into this hypothetical build, which helps a lot with the stealth skill requirements. And feinting.

Swashbuckler could replace three levels of SA-Thug-Fighter, but it's hit or miss since it only applies to his offhand damage when he's using a longsword/dagger, which he typically does. Honestly, the damn longsword is the worst part of his build; ruleswise, he'd be a lot more effective with two daggers.

Or if there was any way to use the longsword with Weapon Finesse. But since WoTC hates dexterity-based melee fighters...