Fivyrn
2012-03-27, 02:47 PM
Final Draft
OK here is my final draft, still need to mess with the skills but I can do that later:
Nobuo Kage
Dark Human LA+1 (Hide in Plain Sight, +10 Movement Speed, +8 hide, +6 Move Silently, 10 Cold Resistance, Darkvision 60 ft., Superior low-light vision)
Str: 8 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 13 Cha:10
Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Shadow Adept 1 / Beguiler 3 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Beguiler 3 / Something else 2, anything that gives spell caster levels will be better than Beguiler, suggestions welcome.
Feats:
Flaws - Cold-Blooded, Non-Combatant
Level 1 Darkstalker
Level 1 Versatile Spellcaster
Level 1 Spellcasting Prodigy
Level 1 Shadow Weave Magic
Level 3 - Spell Focus Illusion
Level 6 - Mindsight
Level 9 - Rapid Metamagic
Level 12 - Heighten Spell [M]
Level 15 - Earth Sense
Level 18 - Earth Spell
Skill Tricks: Conceal Spellcasting, Assume Quirk, Second Impression, Swift Concentration, False Theurgy, Social Recovery.
Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device. As well as prerequisites: Intimidate 4, Knowledge(arcana) 8, Spellcraft 12.
I don't have enough skills for all of this so some things will be pruned back a bit, any recommendations?
Items:
Courtier's Outfit
Full Cape
Leather Armor
Smuggler's Locket
Sheckel Ring
Concealed Dagger
Silk Gloves
Cane
Monocle with chain
Shoulder Bag:
Hooded Robe
Disguise Kit
Forgers Kit
Scroll/Parchment Case
Parchments/Ink + something to write with
Chalk/Charcoal for marking
Small Mirror
Flask of Alcohol - Scotch
Iron Ration
Potion of Cure Wounds of some sort
5 Handkerchiefs
Any money I have left over in a small coin sack.
I still need advice on the last two levels, skills that don't need to be maxed, and any items of note. Thanks everyone for your help and if you have any questions about the build I would glad to answer them.
This has been fun designing my first real D&D character and I hope he is as fun to play as he was to create :D
Edit 2
With the help of my DM a lot of things are starting to come together, here is what I have so far:
Class: Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Beguiler ? / Shadow Mage 5 / Beguiler ?
Abilities: Str:8 Dex:12 Con:14 Int:18 Wis:10 Cha:13
Race: Dark Human LA+1 (from Dark Creature template, Tome of Magic)
+10 speed
Darkvision 60 ft.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
Resistance to cold 10.
Superior low-light vision.
+8 Hide, +6 Move Silently
Extra feat and skills from being human
Feats:
Level 1 - Non Combatant (-2 all melee) - flaw
Level 1 - Cold-Blooded (+ damage from fire, fail heat related saves) - flaw
Level 1 - Versatile Spellcaster (may use two lower level slots to cast a spell of one level higher)
Level 1 - Darkstalker (creatures with blindsight and similar abilities must make a listen or spot check to notice me while hiding)
Level 1 - Extend Spell (using a spellslot one higher than normal I can double the length of a spell) - metamagic, prerquisite for Mastery of Faerie Enchantment - Thinking of getting rid of this.
Level 1 - Mastery of Twisted Shadow (when you cast an illusion spell you may gain concealment for a number of turns equal to the spells casting level as a free action) - Thinking of getting rid of this.
Level 3 - Mastery of Faerie Enchantment (You may add the benefits of the Extend Spell metamagic feat to any enchantment spell for free) - Thinking of getting rid of this.
Level 6 - Mindsight (You can detect the location, type, and intelligence of all intelligent creatures within the range of your telepathy, 100')
Level 9 - Spell Focus Illusion (+1 DC for illusion spells) - prerequisite for Shadow Mage
lvl 12,15,18 - ??? maybe Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater Spell focus for each of them? I will get +1 DC if I cast from hidden/while the opponent does not have dex added to his armorclass, at level 20 this will be +3 DC if I take 14 levels of Beguiler.
Skills: Grabbing some perquisites for Mindbender (intimidate) and some feats (knowledge-planes, spellcraft), grabbing a few skill tricks and then near maxing these(may be a level or so behind on a few):
Bluff
Concentration
Diplomacy
Disguise
Forgery
Hide
Move Silently
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Use Magic Device
Skill Tricks:
Conceal Spellcasting - (once per minute can use Sleight of Hand to cast a spell without anyone noticing I cast it)
Assume Quirk - (once per minute can remove bonuses to uncovering my disguise from people who know the person I am disguising as)
Second Impression - (once per day can use a bluff check after a failed disguise check to try to stay in disguise)
Swift Concentration - (once per minute can maintain concentration as a swift action)
Items:
Leather
Courtier's Outift
Full Cape
Dagger on belt, one hidden
Fancy clothing and Jewelry
Forgers Kit
Disguise Kit
???????????
Something to note: I had a bit of a debate with my DM about stealth. I was of the opinion that it didn't add much to the Beguiler class since the class features having to do with casting from stealth kind of suck, at least until after 16 levels in the class which I won't get to anyways. I wasn't even taking Hide and Move Silently in the first place and he kept telling me I should take Darkstalker and I thought he was being crazy.
Then I realized what he was trying to say was that stealth in of itself is really awesome, never mind that I was a Beguiler. It is just that I have the tools as a Beguiler (lots of skills, good stealth spells) to be able to make great use out of stealth so I should. When I looked at it that way the stealth I am capable of is awesome even if I don't have sneak attack or anything special to use it for, so I decided that I would be sneaky and he even found a way for me to hide in plain sight.
About the Extend spell and Mastery of X feats: I think I should drop them. The Master of Shadow was originally there so I could try to hide when I cast an illusion spell, but of course you can't hide when someone is looking at you unless you have hide in plain sight... so I got that with Dark Human and then we realized that the concealment part actually gave no bonuses to the hide RAW... he did say as a DM he would probably give me bonuses to hide in plain sight if I did have concealment because it only makes sense. If I did keep this due to him changing the rules on hide in plain sight I would retrain it once I hit the first level of Shadow Mage because they have a class ability that does the same thing all the time. Mastery of Faerie Enchantment is cool but is it worth two feat slots to have my Enchantment spells last twice as long? I feel like I could easily get away without it but I am not sure what other feats I like better. I may add in the feat Spellcasting prodigy as recommended for an extra +1 DC to my spells.
One interesting thing I noticed was that if I take 6 classes out of Beguiler (1 Mindbender and 5 Shadow Mage) at level 20 I get another +2 DC to spells I cast from hidden, which at the point might be really really good. I also noticed that the last spell I get to add to my list of spells will be an 8th level spell. If I dip 1 more level into something that adds +1 to my caster class then it pushes those two things up, so I would get to add a 9th level spell to my list instead of 8th (this happens at character level 17/18) but I would lose the +2 DC casting from hidden at character level 20. What is better?
What I would request from anyone reading:
Awesome and creative feats are really still what I need, and feats for later levels or to retrain earlier feats later on.
Also just general optimization, go nuts, I would love to hear it.
I asked my DM if he was worried that we were optimizing this character too much for the party considering the other players are my GF who has never played, his GF who has a few years of experience but doesn't seem super optimizy, and his friend who wants to smash things (although he seems to have a lot of experience as well). My DM said not at all, he optimized his GF and friends characters and helped my GF build hers and says even hers should be pretty awesome. So guys... go nuts if you have some crazy ideas!
My character wants to rule as high of an office as he can, even rule a province if he can one day. He will be far from the powers that other classes like Wizard can posses but his skill at deception and subterfuge mixed with manipulative spells should be able to get him somewhere as long as he treads carefully. Oh yeah I forgot to mention his alignment is somewhere along the lines of Neutral Evil with a good streak, he is very self serving but he wants to play the game of thrones and he knows everyone must think he is a virtuous and kind man if he wants the peoples support so he plays the part.
If you read this far, thanks a lot!
Edit
I have settled on a lot of things, now I mostly need some help with feats and prestige class options, see my last posts if you want more.
Short version
Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / maybe Shadow Mage but probably just more Beguiler... I am lost here.
Str:8 Dex:12 Con:14 Int:18 Wis:10 Cha:13
Human. Feats:
lvl1 Versatile Spellcaster/???/flawsx2???
lvl3 Obtain Familiar?
lvl6 Mindsight
lvl9 Master Manipulator??
lvl12,15,18 ???
I will max: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device with a point in each other class skill that requires a rank to be attempted, cross class into Intimidate for Mindbender requirement. Skill tricks: lvl2 Conceal Spellcasting, lvl3 Assume Quirk, lvl5 Second Impression, lvl9 Swift Concentration.
Character is politically power hungry and will do what it takes to climb to the top using his skills and magic to manipulate or kill anyone in his way, of course while playing the part of a just and friendly person the whole time. He's your best friend!
Original Post
I have had some experience here and there in my life with D&D but I am just beginning my first real campaign in a long time. Our DM is very experience and has been a lot of help but I am one of those people that wants to read every book and know every option before I am satisfied picking something so I wanted to fish for some advice before our first real session this Saturday (we met last Saturday but spent most time creating characters and role-playing the start of the adventure).
Here is the character concept I would like put in the simplest terms: I want to cast non damage spells in creative ways that are useful.
Here is the example I have been using: In Tolkien's The Hobbit the band of dwarves and Bilbo get captured by goblins and are brought deep into a mountain dungeon to the goblin king for judgement. They find elven swords on the dwarves that were made to kill goblins and become enraged. Just as the king of goblins is about to kill the leader of the dwarfs Gandalf the wizard appears from nowhere, makes a blinding flash of light to startle and confuse everyone and in the confusion kills the goblin king with one of the elven swords.
Now granted I don't expect to be that awesome (well perhaps ;p) but the idea is even though Gandalf is an amazingly powerful wizard all he did was really appear from some hidden place and make a flash of light, but it made all the difference.
OK before my post gets too long here are a few ideas we have already come up with. Currently I have a wizard that will PrC into Mage of the Arcane Order to get some spontaneity and then perhaps into Archmage although I am not sure about that. People kept telling me to play Bard or Sorcerer or maybe Factotum but at the time I really liked the idea of being intellect based, now I am more willing to (and even a little excited) to be charisma based.
Spells I like are generally illusion/transmutation/charm/conjuration spells such as grease, mage hand, ghost sound, silent image, unseen servant, etc (I know these are all low level spells). I will not use any damage spells and I am not really interested in buff spells either. I want to trick and confuse people and find creative ways to meet our parties goals.
I don't know a lot about bards but I think their spell list looked decent the last time I looked, I am not really interested in the whole musical aspect of the class though.
I love the amount of casts per day that Sorcerers get but their personal spell list seems so very limited that I would be casting the same 5-6 spells over and over again.
Anyone have any creative ideas? (I have read the batman wizard guide and it is helpful, just wondering what other options I have out there, especially for more spontaneous or more casts per day while giving up a lot of spells that wizards can use that I just have no interest in).
I am rereading about Factotum again right now, even though it doesn't seem to fit my description exactly it does seem pretty awesome...
OK here is my final draft, still need to mess with the skills but I can do that later:
Nobuo Kage
Dark Human LA+1 (Hide in Plain Sight, +10 Movement Speed, +8 hide, +6 Move Silently, 10 Cold Resistance, Darkvision 60 ft., Superior low-light vision)
Str: 8 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 13 Cha:10
Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Shadow Adept 1 / Beguiler 3 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Beguiler 3 / Something else 2, anything that gives spell caster levels will be better than Beguiler, suggestions welcome.
Feats:
Flaws - Cold-Blooded, Non-Combatant
Level 1 Darkstalker
Level 1 Versatile Spellcaster
Level 1 Spellcasting Prodigy
Level 1 Shadow Weave Magic
Level 3 - Spell Focus Illusion
Level 6 - Mindsight
Level 9 - Rapid Metamagic
Level 12 - Heighten Spell [M]
Level 15 - Earth Sense
Level 18 - Earth Spell
Skill Tricks: Conceal Spellcasting, Assume Quirk, Second Impression, Swift Concentration, False Theurgy, Social Recovery.
Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device. As well as prerequisites: Intimidate 4, Knowledge(arcana) 8, Spellcraft 12.
I don't have enough skills for all of this so some things will be pruned back a bit, any recommendations?
Items:
Courtier's Outfit
Full Cape
Leather Armor
Smuggler's Locket
Sheckel Ring
Concealed Dagger
Silk Gloves
Cane
Monocle with chain
Shoulder Bag:
Hooded Robe
Disguise Kit
Forgers Kit
Scroll/Parchment Case
Parchments/Ink + something to write with
Chalk/Charcoal for marking
Small Mirror
Flask of Alcohol - Scotch
Iron Ration
Potion of Cure Wounds of some sort
5 Handkerchiefs
Any money I have left over in a small coin sack.
I still need advice on the last two levels, skills that don't need to be maxed, and any items of note. Thanks everyone for your help and if you have any questions about the build I would glad to answer them.
This has been fun designing my first real D&D character and I hope he is as fun to play as he was to create :D
Edit 2
With the help of my DM a lot of things are starting to come together, here is what I have so far:
Class: Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Beguiler ? / Shadow Mage 5 / Beguiler ?
Abilities: Str:8 Dex:12 Con:14 Int:18 Wis:10 Cha:13
Race: Dark Human LA+1 (from Dark Creature template, Tome of Magic)
+10 speed
Darkvision 60 ft.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
Resistance to cold 10.
Superior low-light vision.
+8 Hide, +6 Move Silently
Extra feat and skills from being human
Feats:
Level 1 - Non Combatant (-2 all melee) - flaw
Level 1 - Cold-Blooded (+ damage from fire, fail heat related saves) - flaw
Level 1 - Versatile Spellcaster (may use two lower level slots to cast a spell of one level higher)
Level 1 - Darkstalker (creatures with blindsight and similar abilities must make a listen or spot check to notice me while hiding)
Level 1 - Extend Spell (using a spellslot one higher than normal I can double the length of a spell) - metamagic, prerquisite for Mastery of Faerie Enchantment - Thinking of getting rid of this.
Level 1 - Mastery of Twisted Shadow (when you cast an illusion spell you may gain concealment for a number of turns equal to the spells casting level as a free action) - Thinking of getting rid of this.
Level 3 - Mastery of Faerie Enchantment (You may add the benefits of the Extend Spell metamagic feat to any enchantment spell for free) - Thinking of getting rid of this.
Level 6 - Mindsight (You can detect the location, type, and intelligence of all intelligent creatures within the range of your telepathy, 100')
Level 9 - Spell Focus Illusion (+1 DC for illusion spells) - prerequisite for Shadow Mage
lvl 12,15,18 - ??? maybe Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater Spell focus for each of them? I will get +1 DC if I cast from hidden/while the opponent does not have dex added to his armorclass, at level 20 this will be +3 DC if I take 14 levels of Beguiler.
Skills: Grabbing some perquisites for Mindbender (intimidate) and some feats (knowledge-planes, spellcraft), grabbing a few skill tricks and then near maxing these(may be a level or so behind on a few):
Bluff
Concentration
Diplomacy
Disguise
Forgery
Hide
Move Silently
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Use Magic Device
Skill Tricks:
Conceal Spellcasting - (once per minute can use Sleight of Hand to cast a spell without anyone noticing I cast it)
Assume Quirk - (once per minute can remove bonuses to uncovering my disguise from people who know the person I am disguising as)
Second Impression - (once per day can use a bluff check after a failed disguise check to try to stay in disguise)
Swift Concentration - (once per minute can maintain concentration as a swift action)
Items:
Leather
Courtier's Outift
Full Cape
Dagger on belt, one hidden
Fancy clothing and Jewelry
Forgers Kit
Disguise Kit
???????????
Something to note: I had a bit of a debate with my DM about stealth. I was of the opinion that it didn't add much to the Beguiler class since the class features having to do with casting from stealth kind of suck, at least until after 16 levels in the class which I won't get to anyways. I wasn't even taking Hide and Move Silently in the first place and he kept telling me I should take Darkstalker and I thought he was being crazy.
Then I realized what he was trying to say was that stealth in of itself is really awesome, never mind that I was a Beguiler. It is just that I have the tools as a Beguiler (lots of skills, good stealth spells) to be able to make great use out of stealth so I should. When I looked at it that way the stealth I am capable of is awesome even if I don't have sneak attack or anything special to use it for, so I decided that I would be sneaky and he even found a way for me to hide in plain sight.
About the Extend spell and Mastery of X feats: I think I should drop them. The Master of Shadow was originally there so I could try to hide when I cast an illusion spell, but of course you can't hide when someone is looking at you unless you have hide in plain sight... so I got that with Dark Human and then we realized that the concealment part actually gave no bonuses to the hide RAW... he did say as a DM he would probably give me bonuses to hide in plain sight if I did have concealment because it only makes sense. If I did keep this due to him changing the rules on hide in plain sight I would retrain it once I hit the first level of Shadow Mage because they have a class ability that does the same thing all the time. Mastery of Faerie Enchantment is cool but is it worth two feat slots to have my Enchantment spells last twice as long? I feel like I could easily get away without it but I am not sure what other feats I like better. I may add in the feat Spellcasting prodigy as recommended for an extra +1 DC to my spells.
One interesting thing I noticed was that if I take 6 classes out of Beguiler (1 Mindbender and 5 Shadow Mage) at level 20 I get another +2 DC to spells I cast from hidden, which at the point might be really really good. I also noticed that the last spell I get to add to my list of spells will be an 8th level spell. If I dip 1 more level into something that adds +1 to my caster class then it pushes those two things up, so I would get to add a 9th level spell to my list instead of 8th (this happens at character level 17/18) but I would lose the +2 DC casting from hidden at character level 20. What is better?
What I would request from anyone reading:
Awesome and creative feats are really still what I need, and feats for later levels or to retrain earlier feats later on.
Also just general optimization, go nuts, I would love to hear it.
I asked my DM if he was worried that we were optimizing this character too much for the party considering the other players are my GF who has never played, his GF who has a few years of experience but doesn't seem super optimizy, and his friend who wants to smash things (although he seems to have a lot of experience as well). My DM said not at all, he optimized his GF and friends characters and helped my GF build hers and says even hers should be pretty awesome. So guys... go nuts if you have some crazy ideas!
My character wants to rule as high of an office as he can, even rule a province if he can one day. He will be far from the powers that other classes like Wizard can posses but his skill at deception and subterfuge mixed with manipulative spells should be able to get him somewhere as long as he treads carefully. Oh yeah I forgot to mention his alignment is somewhere along the lines of Neutral Evil with a good streak, he is very self serving but he wants to play the game of thrones and he knows everyone must think he is a virtuous and kind man if he wants the peoples support so he plays the part.
If you read this far, thanks a lot!
Edit
I have settled on a lot of things, now I mostly need some help with feats and prestige class options, see my last posts if you want more.
Short version
Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / maybe Shadow Mage but probably just more Beguiler... I am lost here.
Str:8 Dex:12 Con:14 Int:18 Wis:10 Cha:13
Human. Feats:
lvl1 Versatile Spellcaster/???/flawsx2???
lvl3 Obtain Familiar?
lvl6 Mindsight
lvl9 Master Manipulator??
lvl12,15,18 ???
I will max: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device with a point in each other class skill that requires a rank to be attempted, cross class into Intimidate for Mindbender requirement. Skill tricks: lvl2 Conceal Spellcasting, lvl3 Assume Quirk, lvl5 Second Impression, lvl9 Swift Concentration.
Character is politically power hungry and will do what it takes to climb to the top using his skills and magic to manipulate or kill anyone in his way, of course while playing the part of a just and friendly person the whole time. He's your best friend!
Original Post
I have had some experience here and there in my life with D&D but I am just beginning my first real campaign in a long time. Our DM is very experience and has been a lot of help but I am one of those people that wants to read every book and know every option before I am satisfied picking something so I wanted to fish for some advice before our first real session this Saturday (we met last Saturday but spent most time creating characters and role-playing the start of the adventure).
Here is the character concept I would like put in the simplest terms: I want to cast non damage spells in creative ways that are useful.
Here is the example I have been using: In Tolkien's The Hobbit the band of dwarves and Bilbo get captured by goblins and are brought deep into a mountain dungeon to the goblin king for judgement. They find elven swords on the dwarves that were made to kill goblins and become enraged. Just as the king of goblins is about to kill the leader of the dwarfs Gandalf the wizard appears from nowhere, makes a blinding flash of light to startle and confuse everyone and in the confusion kills the goblin king with one of the elven swords.
Now granted I don't expect to be that awesome (well perhaps ;p) but the idea is even though Gandalf is an amazingly powerful wizard all he did was really appear from some hidden place and make a flash of light, but it made all the difference.
OK before my post gets too long here are a few ideas we have already come up with. Currently I have a wizard that will PrC into Mage of the Arcane Order to get some spontaneity and then perhaps into Archmage although I am not sure about that. People kept telling me to play Bard or Sorcerer or maybe Factotum but at the time I really liked the idea of being intellect based, now I am more willing to (and even a little excited) to be charisma based.
Spells I like are generally illusion/transmutation/charm/conjuration spells such as grease, mage hand, ghost sound, silent image, unseen servant, etc (I know these are all low level spells). I will not use any damage spells and I am not really interested in buff spells either. I want to trick and confuse people and find creative ways to meet our parties goals.
I don't know a lot about bards but I think their spell list looked decent the last time I looked, I am not really interested in the whole musical aspect of the class though.
I love the amount of casts per day that Sorcerers get but their personal spell list seems so very limited that I would be casting the same 5-6 spells over and over again.
Anyone have any creative ideas? (I have read the batman wizard guide and it is helpful, just wondering what other options I have out there, especially for more spontaneous or more casts per day while giving up a lot of spells that wizards can use that I just have no interest in).
I am rereading about Factotum again right now, even though it doesn't seem to fit my description exactly it does seem pretty awesome...