Challenge: Cleric Versus

[Sturmcrow]

So I made a post about missing a D&D game and maybe starting one up again and when some of my friends (this was on Facebook) commented they expressed disgust at it being 4E. Now this is not about which edition is better. Simply put I said I liked 4E over 3.5 because of balance specifically pointing out the power level of Tier 1 classes over other ones. I was then told that a Fighter or Monk could take on any of those classes and beat them easy.

So for the challenge it will be my Cleric versus his Monk. Currently it is agreed no Prestige classes. I almost went Druid since he said that is his favorite class but eh.

So I am looking to get some feedback for the build and my plan. Thanks

edit - Build is hidden behind Spoiler


STARTING BUFFED MOD
STR: 13 23 +6
DEX: 9 13 +1
CON: 12 14 +2
INT: 10 10 +0
WIS: 16 21 +5
CHR: 14 20 +5

HP: 87 (average)
AC: 36 = 10 + 14 Armor + 6 Shield + 2 Natural + 1 Dexterity + 4 (Defending) - 1 (Size)
Initiative: +6 = +4 Feat + 2 Competence
Fort: +17
Refex: +13
Will: +20

Cleric 1 BAB +0 SAVES +2/+0/+2 - Domains: Planning/Time, Turn Undead, Feats: Improved Initiative, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM - Persist Spell
Cleric 2 BAB +1 SAVES +3/+0/+3 -
Cleric 3 BAB +2 SAVES +3/+1/+3 - Feat: Power Attack
Cleric 4 BAB +3 SAVES +4/+1/+4 - Wis+1
Cleric 5 BAB +3 SAVES +4/+1/+4 -
Cleric 6 BAB +4 SAVES +5/+2/+5 - Feat: Quicken Spell
Cleric 7 BAB +5 SAVES +5/+2/+5 -
Cleric 8 BAB +6/+1 SAVES +6/+2/+6 - Cha+1
Cleric 9 BAB +6/+1 SAVES +6/+3/+6 - Feat: Extra Turning
Cleric 10 BAB +7/+2 SAVES +7/+3/+7 -
Cleric 11 BAB +8/+3 SAVES +7/+3/+7 -
Cleric 12 BAB +9/+4 SAVES +8/+4/+8 - Cha+1, Feat: DMM - Quicken Spell
Cleric 13 BAB +9/+4 SAVES +8/+4/+8 -
Cleric 14 BAB +10/+5 SAVES +9/+4/+9 -
Cleric 15 BAB +11/+6/+1 SAVES +9/+5/+9 - Feat: Extra Turning

Concentration +19 = 12 Ranks + 2 + 5
Knowledge(Religion) +6 = 6 Ranks
Knowledge(The Planes) +6 = 6 Ranks
Spellcraft +12 = 12 Ranks

Persistant Divine Power (BAB +15/+10/+5 +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strength, 15 Temporary HP)
Persistant Righteous Might (Large; +4 Size Bonus to Strength, +2 Size Bonus to Constitution, +2 Enhancement to Natural Armor, DR 9/Good, -1 AC from Size)
Contigent Surge of Fortune (or maybe Revivify)
Magic Vestment cast on Armor and Shield
Greater Magic Weapon Cast on Morning Star
Cast Superior Resistance


Spells
0 - 6
1st - 6 + 1; Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Ebon Eyes, Protection from Law, Bless, Omen of Peril, + Truestrike
2nd - 6 + 1; Avoid Planar Effects, Ghost Touch Armor, Tyche's Touch, + Augury
3rd - 6 + 1; Dispel Magic, Magic Vestment x2, Mass Resist Energy, Vision of the Omniscient Eye, Ghost Touch Weapon, + Haste
4th - 4 + 1; Mystic Aegis, Greater Magic Weapon, Air Walk, Divine Power, + Freedom of Movement
5th - 4 + 1; Righteous Might, Surge of Fortune, True Seeing, Quickened Truestrike + Detect Scrying
6th - 3 + 1; Healx2, Superior Resistance + Contingency
7th - 2 + 1; Word of Chaos, Ethereal Jaunt + Scrying, Greater
8th - 1 + 1; Quickened Delay Death + Foresight

200,000gp

--
35,308 +1 Adamantine Valorous Collision Morning Star
6,000 Demolition Crystal (Greater)
19,850 +1 Medium Fortification Full Plate w/ Armor Spikes (W/ Called property)
8,000 +1 Defending Armor Spikes
8,000 +1 Defending Gauntlets
8,000 Iron Ward Diamond (DR 5/- stacks with Adamantine DR lasts until it prevents 50 damage a day)
16,267 +1 Animated Death Ward Darkwood Heavy Shield w/ Shield Spikes
16,000 +2 Defending Shield Spikes
16,000 +4 Cloak of Charisma
16,000 +4 Gloves of Dexterity
16,000 +4 Periapt of Wisdom
2,500 Tunic of Steady Spellcasting
12,000 Belt of Battle
16,000 Pearl of Power (4th)
9.000 Pearl of Power (3rd)
3,200 Skirmisher Boots
3.000 Metamagic Rod of Extend, Lesser
2,000 Hewards Handy Haversack
1,000 of Diamond Dust
500 Holy Symbol
300 for Foci
15 Adventuring Kit

50gp left

[Snowbluff]

Freedom of Movement and something to handle Stunning Fist would put you ahead significantly.

Do something about your Con score. Also, learn to fly with Holy Transformation or the like.

You should probably grab a spell that'll grant a miss chance as well.

Using the Spell Domain you could cast Anyspell to get yourself some buffs you would not normally have, taking full advantage of your T1 versatility.

[TroubleBrewing]

What level? If it's after 9, drop a Divine Power on yourself and beat the monk to death with your hands.

[SPoilaaja]

any buffing rounds? How far apart will you start from each other?

[Sturmcrow]

It was not decided about buffing rounds. I am assuming standard encounter distance. I am assuming that the Cleric would have the normal buffs he cast when he woke up aka Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Righteous Might, Superior Resistance, Magic Vestment x2 and Greater Magic Weapon.

The Cleric has Freedom of Movement as a Domain spell.

My plan was pretty much, see Monk, Truestrike and charge with full power attack using Surge of Fortune to make it a 20 and hope that my roll confirms a critical. That would be 150 damage easy. Back up plan is Ethereal Jaunt and keep hitting him with a Ghost Touch Weapon.

[Ernir]

It was not decided about buffing rounds. I am assuming standard encounter distance.

These need to be decided. Also, source availability.

[theMycon]

My plan was pretty much, see Monk, Truestrike and charge with full power attack using Surge of Fortune to make it a 20 and hope that my roll confirms a critical. That would be 150 damage easy. Back up plan is Ethereal Jaunt and keep hitting him with a Ghost Touch Weapon.

First: He's a monk. Ghost Touch won't do anything. His touch AC is going to be his AC (unless ghost touch isn't one of those types of ethereal attack that mage armor resists). His flatfooted might be significantly lower; but that probably won't help you for long.

Second: If you feel confident about resisting the first stunning fist, I'd suggest "make the monk charge you" instead. He won't have full BAB or a two-handed weapon, but a sufficiently-well-optimized monk can be a nigh-unstoppable melee god of death with his full attack. He can also be a impressive trip-monkey, but it can't really do much else well, and both of those rely on you coming into his range before his turn.
A cleric, however, can be a nigh-unstoppable melee god of death, an air-walking sniper, a first-class summoner, and even a decent blaster, all at the same time. Only ONE of those relies on your closing to him ever at any point. And if you do find yourself in melee, full attacking has a decent chance to kill him in one round.

[TroubleBrewing]

Cast Wind Walk and just blast him from the sky. Seriously, this shouldn't require much thought.

[Sturmcrow]

These need to be decided. Also, source availability.

Any WOTC book for 3.5

Probably should have decided distance but I believe the DMG has rules for encounter. Unless he argues for face to face I don't think it matters to much.

[Sturmcrow]

First: He's a monk. Ghost Touch won't do anything. His touch AC is going to be his AC (unless ghost touch isn't one of those types of ethereal attack that mage armor resists). His flatfooted might be significantly lower; but that probably won't help you for long.

Second: If you feel confident about resisting the first stunning fist, I'd suggest "make the monk charge you" instead. He won't have full BAB or a two-handed weapon, but a sufficiently-well-optimized monk can be a nigh-unstoppable melee god of death with his full attack. He can also be a impressive trip-monkey, but it can't really do much else well, and both of those rely on you coming into his range before his turn.
A cleric, however, can be a nigh-unstoppable melee god of death, an air-walking sniper, a first-class summoner, and even a decent blaster, all at the same time. Only ONE of those relies on your closing to him ever at any point. And if you do find yourself in melee, full attacking has a decent chance to kill him in one round.

First, the point of Ghost touch weapon is it can be wielded by incorporeal and effect either incorporeal from what I was reading, that way if my cleric goes insubstantial he can beat on the monk without the monk able to respond.

Second, yeah I do worry about trip attack but I wanted to try to finish it with one big hit. I thought about doing Summoner etc but I wanted to prove a point that Casters can melee better than melee classes. Since part of the monk's melee is impressive number of attacks I think the DR will help.

This was largely a matter of what did I miss?
I imagine he will be smart and give the monk an item so he can fly too.

[dextercorvia]

1. Practice your evil laugh of evilness.
2. DMM Persist Delay Death and Veil of Undeath.
3. ???
4. Profit

[Lonely Tylenol]

Regarding your ability scores:

Are you casting something that requires a save?

If not, why do you need a WIS modifier of +5?

After items/buffs, you probably don't need a WIS score higher than 18, which is barely enough to cast your 8th-level spells. All the 18 -> 21 difference is getting you is an extra first-level spell.

I would say the same for your CHA modifier, but you're clearly *not* abusing Nightsticks*, or it would be on your list of items. I'm guessing he wouldn't let you get away with it? Seems odd, since the point is "Clerics are cheesy", and that helps illustrate the point quite nicely.

If you can get away with it, get Nightsticks, swap them out, and keep your CHA only high enough to actually be able to use Turn Undead (the rest is going to be granted from Nightsticks). Congratulations - now all your spells are persistabuffed, and all your relevant ability scores are maxed for the Point Buy.

*Normally I wouldn't advocate Nightsticks as stacking them is quite cheesy, in my opinion, but the point of this is that Clerics, when optimized, are cheesy beyond the point of equality with a Monk.

[Sturmcrow]

Regarding your ability scores:

Are you casting something that requires a save?

If not, why do you need a WIS modifier of +5?

After items/buffs, you probably don't need a WIS score higher than 18, which is barely enough to cast your 8th-level spells. All the 18 -> 21 difference is getting you is an extra first-level spell.

I would say the same for your CHA modifier, but you're clearly *not* abusing Nightsticks*, or it would be on your list of items. I'm guessing he wouldn't let you get away with it? Seems odd, since the point is "Clerics are cheesy", and that helps illustrate the point quite nicely.

If you can get away with it, get Nightsticks, swap them out, and keep your CHA only high enough to actually be able to use Turn Undead (the rest is going to be granted from Nightsticks). Congratulations - now all your spells are persistabuffed, and all your relevant ability scores are maxed for the Point Buy.

*Normally I wouldn't advocate Nightsticks as stacking them is quite cheesy, in my opinion, but the point of this is that Clerics, when optimized, are cheesy beyond the point of equality with a Monk.

I thought Nightstick abuse was questionable and wanted to avoid anything that might be arguable in the rules. Trust me though I did think about them.

For Ability scores, I figured I should make him somewhat rounded so that if I choose I could change some of his spells and try blasting. My goal was not to make a Monk Killing Cleric, but to make a Cleric that is awesome and would outclass one of the Melee classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Divine Spell Power + Word of Chaos = dead monk, no save?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I thought Nightstick abuse was questionable and wanted to avoid anything that might be arguable in the rules. Trust me though I did think about them.

For Ability scores, I figured I should make him somewhat rounded so that if I choose I could change some of his spells and try blasting. My goal was not to make a Monk Killing Cleric, but to make a Cleric that is awesome and would outclass one of the Melee classes.

Fair point about the Nightsticks. I myself wouldn't use them.

CoDZilla in general only uses his ability score for buffing himself to oblivion; for that, an ability score of 18 is all that's necessary. For blasting... A save DC one higher isn't going to make a great world of difference, but if it was, there would be better ways to get it (like Owl's Wisdom or a +4/+6 item, for example).

Even if so, the 21 WIS is completely unnecessary; unless you're expecting the Monk to dispense WIS damage, all you've got to show for it is an odd ability score or three. Reducing the original Point Buy into Wisdom from 16 to 15 allows you to invest a point each into Strength and Dexterity, which means +1 to-hit, damage, touch AC, Reflex save, and initiative for absolutely no exchange whatsoever. (EDIT: OR, you could invest it into a CON score two higher and gain +15 Hit Points and +1 to Fort save, again, for no exchange.)

[Sturmcrow]

Divine Spell Power + Word of Chaos = dead monk, no save?

Hmm, yes, it looks like Divine Spell Power plus maybe a Bead of Karma for CL +4 that would be easy.


Fair point about the Nightsticks. I myself wouldn't use them.

CoDZilla in general only uses his ability score for buffing himself to oblivion; for that, an ability score of 18 is all that's necessary. For blasting... A save DC one higher isn't going to make a great world of difference, but if it was, there would be better ways to get it (like Owl's Wisdom or a +4/+6 item, for example).

Even if so, the 21 WIS is completely unnecessary; unless you're expecting the Monk to dispense WIS damage, all you've got to show for it is an odd ability score or three. Reducing the original Point Buy into Wisdom from 16 to 15 allows you to invest a point each into Strength and Dexterity, which means +1 to-hit, damage, touch AC, Reflex save, and initiative for absolutely no exchange whatsoever. (EDIT: OR, you could invest it into a CON score two higher and gain +15 Hit Points and +1 to Fort save, again, for no exchange.)


Thank you, that sounds good, will move the stats around.

[LordBlades]

Hmm, yes, it looks like Divine Spell Power plus maybe a Bead of Karma for CL +4 that would be easy.

Might also want to consider Orange Ioun Stone (+1 CL) and/or Chaos Domain (+1 CL) if you plan on going this route

[Douglas]

First, the point of Ghost touch weapon is it can be wielded by incorporeal and effect either incorporeal from what I was reading, that way if my cleric goes insubstantial he can beat on the monk without the monk able to respond.
Incorporeal and Ethereal are two different things. Ghost Touch only helps with the former, and Ethereal Jaunt gives you the latter. Going ethereal will just put the fight on hold with neither of you able to affect the other regardless of Ghost Touch - unless the monk has a force attack, or has somehow acquired some offensive abjurations or a gaze attack, in which case you're just screwing yourself over.

[candycorn]

Assuming Monk has BAB 11, Str +8, and a +5 enhancement to hit...

Let's work on making you unhittable... In style.

First: Karma Bead + Ioun Stone = CL 20
Plant Domain, Magic Domain

Dex 14 Base
Wisdom 15 Base +3 levels, +6 item (24, +7)

Scroll: Greater Mage Armor (+6)
Wear: Monk's belt (+8 AC)
Scroll: Nightstalker's Transformation (+3)
Scroll: Shield
Persist: Barkskin (+5 Nat Armor) -
Persist: Shield of Faith (+5 Deflection)
DMM Persist: Divine Agility (+10 dex)

AC: 10 + 7 (dex) + 8 (wis+1) + 6(armor) + 4 (shield) + 5 (Nat) + 5 (deflection) +3 (luck) =48 AC

Now, unarmored, your AC makes you nearly untouchable. From here, use DMM persist divine power, and go toe to toe.

Add on Veil of Undeath, for fun. Immune to poison and stunning.

[DeAnno]

Delay Death is already an immediate action, Quickening it does little good.

[LordBlades]

Assuming Monk has BAB 11, Str +8, and a +5 enhancement to hit...

Let's work on making you unhittable... In style.

First: Karma Bead + Ioun Stone = CL 20
Plant Domain, Magic Domain

Dex 14 Base
Wisdom 15 Base +3 levels, +6 item (24, +7)

Scroll: Greater Mage Armor (+6)
Wear: Monk's belt (+8 AC)
Scroll: Nightstalker's Transformation (+3)
Scroll: Shield
Persist: Barkskin (+5 Nat Armor) -
Persist: Shield of Faith (+5 Deflection)
DMM Persist: Divine Agility (+10 dex)

AC: 10 + 7 (dex) + 8 (wis+1) + 6(armor) + 4 (shield) + 5 (Nat) + 5 (deflection) +3 (luck) =48 AC

Now, unarmored, your AC makes you nearly untouchable. From here, use DMM persist divine power, and go toe to toe.

Add on Veil of Undeath, for fun. Immune to poison and stunning.

For bonus style points, get Superior Unarmed Strike and beat him at being a monk.

[dextercorvia]

Delay Death is already an immediate action, Quickening it does little good.

Persisting it on the other hand....

Seriously, if you want to prove what different worlds T1 and T5/6 are, don't stoop to his level and build a better melee character. Can T1 do it? Sure -- by very definition. But, it won't prove your point. He first needs to see that with two spells and some Turn attempts, nothing he does can touch you.

Hence Delay Death and Veil of Undeath. You are now immune to practically everything, including death by damage, death effects, mental ability damage, and stunning, (also the whole Fort save thing) which pretty well sums up what the monk is able to do. You probably want to add in some form of Freedom of Movement, in case he goes the grappling route.

If you swap out the time domain for the earth domain, you can also persist Iron Body, to gain immunity to all ability damage, blindness, deafness, and some other stuff which pretty much takes care of all the rest.

Edit: @Candycorn: Nightstalker's Transformation makes you give up spellcasting, how is that possibly worth it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Assuming Monk has BAB 11, Str +8, and a +5 enhancement to hit...

Let's work on making you unhittable... In style.

First: Karma Bead + Ioun Stone = CL 20
Plant Domain, Magic Domain

Dex 14 Base
Wisdom 15 Base +3 levels, +6 item (24, +7)

Scroll: Greater Mage Armor (+6)
Wear: Monk's belt (+8 AC)
Scroll: Nightstalker's Transformation (+3)
Scroll: Shield
Persist: Barkskin (+5 Nat Armor) -
Persist: Shield of Faith (+5 Deflection)
DMM Persist: Divine Agility (+10 dex)

AC: 10 + 7 (dex) + 8 (wis+1) + 6(armor) + 4 (shield) + 5 (Nat) + 5 (deflection) +3 (luck) =48 AC

Now, unarmored, your AC makes you nearly untouchable. From here, use DMM persist divine power, and go toe to toe.

Add on Veil of Undeath, for fun. Immune to poison and stunning.

Or... Anyspell -> Mirror Image. Now you have about the same chance of being hit without dropping money on scrolls and persisting a half dozen buffs. Even better, Greater Anyspell -> Greater Mirror Image which is then DMM Persisted.

[candycorn]

Edit: @Candycorn: Nightstalker's Transformation makes you give up spellcasting, how is that possibly worth it?To be honest, it's not absolutely necessary, since 45 AC will still be in the "needs a 20 to hit" range. So remove that one.


Or... Anyspell -> Mirror Image. Now you have about the same chance of being hit without dropping money on scrolls and persisting a half dozen buffs. Even better, Greater Anyspell -> Greater Mirror Image which is then DMM Persisted.
Use it too. Turn 1 in 20 to 1 in about 400. Works for me.

And the idea is that you can literally beat him at doing what he does. Unarmored combatant.

Step 2 is beating him with the 2 spell "can't kill me" combo.

Step 3 is beating him with direct damage.

And so on.

[DrDeth]

This won’t end well, and it’s sort of pointless. Cleric, more than any other 3.5 class, can be built to defeat any given opponent much better.

If he really thinks that a 3. 5cleric can’t be built just to smash one monk, he’s completely delusional. Like dextercorvia sez, don’t bother trying to build a better melee PC.

4th ed is better balanced, but some think that makes the various classes too much alike. It’s really what you prefer playing.

And of course, just because a given cleric can be built to beat a given foe, that doesn’t prove the cleric class is more powerful than the monk. Just that it’s various builds are more flexible. Other than trapfinding skillmonkey you can pretty much build anything with a cleric. Monks are limited to a sort of odd tank. They can’t heal, blast, find traps or anything other than hit things. But they are fun, none-the-less.

[dextercorvia]

To me it goes the other way around.

1. Can't kill me, take you out with a CL YES Word of Chaos.
2. Unarmed Melee monster

Establish the absolute dominance of T1 when playing to their strengths. Then demonstrate that even limiting yourself to his arena, you are better at that niche as well. After that, you can show him how you would have beat him with a level 7 cleric, or with nothing equipped but chopsticks.

[Gnaeus]

Other than trapfinding skillmonkey you can pretty much build anything with a cleric.

You can build trapfinding skillmonkey clerics. You start with Kobold domain (for trapfinding) and then boost your skill checks with spells. It isn't your best option for a cleric, but it can be done.

[DeAnno]

Make sure to include Footsteps of the Divine, just in case he invests in a lot of speed and tries for a draw by staying back.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Oh god, do these peole not know better? Anywho, I would go cloister cleric for the extra domain, then use the 2nd level spell: Substitute Domain from Complete Champion to trade it for one with a better ability, the Undeath domain, from Libris Mortum nets you a copy of Extra turning.

Since you mentioned that ALL 3.5 books are on the table, the Dragonlance Campaign setting (make your jeers if you want) has the Sun and Necromancy domains which grant Turn/Rebuke undead respectivly. If you take the Destroy undead ACF from Expidetion to Castle Ravenloft you can get three turn pools to play with. Slap on a single Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol (you would have the cash since Cloister Cleric dosen't need/use armour) and that is (5+3+14)*3 or 66 turn attempts.

In other words 11 persisted spells.

Throw on an Extended Persistant Wings of the Diva (from Book of Exalted deeds) for a 100ft flight speed and you should clean up anything that is thrown your way.

[candycorn]

Azurin Cleric also gives Channel Incarnum, which explicitly states that it can be used to pay for anything that turn undead can pay for.

[Dancingdeath]

Please tell me you're gonna post the result of the matchup here.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Please tell me you're gonna post the result of the matchup here.

I hope so - it wouldn't be fair to not tell us how hard he spanked the monk.

[Harry]

You could cast a persistent delay death and persistent stormrage fly in to the sky and shoot him with your freckin thunder eye lasers and there's no way for him to hurt you :smallsmile: and please post the results

[candycorn]

You could cast a persistent delay death and persistent stormrage fly in to the sky and shoot him with your freckin thunder eye lasers and there's no way for him to hurt you :smallsmile: and please post the results

Note: You'll also need Beastland Ferocity or the like, as you will still go unconscious at negative HP... Just not dead.

[Dancingdeath]

Odds are that he will have come up with some way to fly unless he's retarded. Fly up really high, and dispel his ability to fly. He won't be next to a wall, so he'll take full damage from falling. See if you can get him to follow you to something just obscenely punishing to fall into. Like lave, or acid, or the lair of a great wyrm evil dragon. You know, something really lethal and humiliating.

[Randomguy]

I don't think you even need to optimize much here: Prayer beads of karma + other CL boosting + word of chaos just kills him.

Alternatively, go for a summoner build and have your minions beat him to death. You can probably summon something with a better grapple check than him, and dispel his freedom of movement if he's got it. I think you could actually do this one all core, if you wanted.

[Harry]

Note: You'll also need Beastland Ferocity or the like, as you will still go unconscious at negative HP... Just not dead.

The diehard feat also works:smallsmile:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Can you protect yourself from antimagic??

That is all a grapple monk needs to beat you senseless.

[Harry]

Can you protect yourself from antimagic??

That is all a grapple monk needs to beat you senseless.

Yes the Initiate of Mystra feat allows you to cast spells in a antimagic field

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I just both sides munchkining their ACs that both sides will not be able to hit.

[demigodus]

Odds are that he will have come up with some way to fly unless he's retarded. Fly up really high, and dispel his ability to fly. He won't be next to a wall, so he'll take full damage from falling. See if you can get him to follow you to something just obscenely punishing to fall into. Like lave, or acid, or the lair of a great wyrm evil dragon. You know, something really lethal and humiliating.

Get him to fall onto an orphanage? Then whip out the falling rules to determine how badly he nuked the orphanage? I get the impression monks don't particularly enjoy slaughtering that many orphans. :smallwink:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Get him to fall onto an orphanage? Then whip out the falling rules to determine how badly he nuked the orphanage? I get the impression monks don't particularly enjoy slaughtering that many orphans. :smallwink:

you do if you are a monk of hextor. :smalltongue:

[Dancingdeath]

Get him to fall onto an orphanage? Then whip out the falling rules to determine how badly he nuked the orphanage? I get the impression monks don't particularly enjoy slaughtering that many orphans. :smallwink:

HA! I was just picturing something fierce and angry, but that's brilliant. If the orphanage could be located upstairs from a pet store.......Dead orphans, puppies, and kitties oh my!

[dextercorvia]

Note: You'll also need Beastland Ferocity or the like, as you will still go unconscious at negative HP... Just not dead.

True. Is there any other way around this?


I just both sides munchkining their ACs that both sides will not be able to hit.

Possibly, but the Cleric doesn't actually have to hit the Monk's AC.

[Harry]

True. Is there any other way around this?

Yes the diehard feat is one way a cleric can do it

[Rejusu]

Sigh, I understand preferring 3.5 over 4E (I will note that I agree with the disgusted attitude of your friends) but if you're going to argue over which is better you should at least know what you're talking about with regards to the system you're arguing for. Why your friend thought that Monk vs Cleric wouldn't end in him getting slaughtered I don't know. He's probably one of those people who thinks the monk is awesome.

Is multi-classing/PrCing on the table? If it is you might have a fight on your hands (though somehow I think 2 levels of monk and 13 levels of Psychic Warrior doesn't really count as a monk), if it's pure Cleric vs pure Monk then this is probably over before it's begun.

And while I realise this isn't supposed to be about which system is better I will add that balance is a poor reason to favour one over the other. Just because the system is imbalanced doesn't mean the games have to be.

[dextercorvia]

Yes the diehard feat is one way a cleric can do it

Diehard restricts your actions. Rageclaws only lets you behave normally in the specified range.

[Harry]

Diehard restricts your actions. Rageclaws only lets you behave normally in the specified range.

Then scroll of beastland ferocity :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

Then scroll of beastland ferocity :smallbiggrin:

Absolutely an option, but you might as well make it a scroll of Reach Persistent Beastland Ferocity. I'm betting that a DC 37 check would be manageable with cross-class ranks and Guidance of the Deity. You might need Wieldskill thrown in for good measure.

[demigodus]

And while I realise this isn't supposed to be about which system is better I will add that balance is a poor reason to favour one over the other. Just because the system is imbalanced doesn't mean the games have to be.

No, but it can result in a game being accidentally imbalanced as hell.

It can also result in a case where out of two people, one isn't allowed to play the class they want, or play the way they want, because of vast power differences. 3.5's good point is its flexibility. If you can't actually utilize that flexibility without imbalancing a party, I would consider the lack of balance a big problem.

Though honestly, there is no such thing as a poor reason to favour one system over another, so long as your reason is objectively correct. Whether a person finds a system good or not depends on their own values, not some universal set of values.

[dextercorvia]

Assuming Monk has BAB 11, Str +8, and a +5 enhancement to hit...

Let's work on making you unhittable... In style.

First: Karma Bead + Ioun Stone = CL 20
Plant Domain, Magic Domain

Dex 14 Base
Wisdom 15 Base +3 levels, +6 item (24, +7)

Scroll: Greater Mage Armor (+6)
Wear: Monk's belt (+8 AC)
Scroll: Nightstalker's Transformation (+3)
Scroll: Shield
Persist: Barkskin (+5 Nat Armor) -
Persist: Shield of Faith (+5 Deflection)
DMM Persist: Divine Agility (+10 dex)

AC: 10 + 7 (dex) + 8 (wis+1) + 6(armor) + 4 (shield) + 5 (Nat) + 5 (deflection) +3 (luck) =48 AC

Now, unarmored, your AC makes you nearly untouchable. From here, use DMM persist divine power, and go toe to toe.

Add on Veil of Undeath, for fun. Immune to poison and stunning.

You can pick up the Luck bonus you were getting from Nightstalker's by switching to Recitation, which is persistable, and 1 level lower.

[Sturmcrow]

Thank you guys, been busy last couple days so had not had time to check this.

I had briefly considered building a couple different versions just to demonstrate how much stronger the Cleric class is. A lot of real good ideas.

I am tempted to go the Word of Chaos route with a boosted CL but as I said earlier, partly I wanted to demonstrate how the Tier 1 classes could beat Melee classes as melee.

Also, as I said it is by the book and pure class only, taking a bunch of prestige classes or multi classing (esp for the monk) would only prove my point even more I think.

I don't fault people for their preferences, nor what they play; In a 3.5 game I made a Halfling Monk once. I have just found that most times people who are the biggest Pro 3.5 while being Anti 4th always have a Tier 1 as their favorite class. I don't want to get into an edition debate here but I will just say I disagree and feel that balance to me is especially important in a game. Also, it is not the edition that really makes a game, it is the group you play with.

I will definitely post what happens in the match up. Just realized I should decide exactly what I am going to do and finalize my choices, I am going out to OC on Saturday so it will be a good time to run the match.

[Sturmcrow]

Can you protect yourself from antimagic??

That is all a grapple monk needs to beat you senseless.

I had thought about antimagic but with just base books (no custom stuff) can a pure Monk have access to an Antimagic Field?

[Sturmcrow]

Okay, Wieldskill can give UMD and Divine Insight can make it easier but is there any way to get the benefit of Beastland Ferocity with a Cleric spell?

Also

so for Word of Chaos

Need to hit CL 25 to kill outright. Beads +4, Ioun Stone +1, Divine Power +X where would I get the rest from?

[NeoSeraphi]

I think there's a drug in BoVD that gives you +2 CL for one spell or something. The Chaos Domain is another obvious choice (You don't really need to worry about it being subpar. This is a single fight, not a campaign).

Spellgifted (Evocation) is a trait that will give you another +1 to all your Evocation spells. And if you take the Clap of Thunder feat from Complete Mage, you get a +1 CL boost to all your [Sonic] spells too.

Do realize that, even if you do this, your point will most likely not reach home. You start the fight and say "Okay, I cast word of chaos. You die." "...What? But I have spell resistance..." "Trust me. My CL is 25. Your SR won't be enough." "What? That's ridiculous! Your character is only level 15!" "I know." "Well, okay, what's my save? I have all good saves and I pumped my Con, Wis and Dex, and I have a cloak of resistance +5. I bet I can make it." "There's no save." "There's...no save?" "No. No save, and my CL is way too high for your spell resistance to matter." "That...that's such a stupid spell!"

At least, that's how I imagine the discussion will go down. He will probably argue that no DM would ever allow this spell at a table, or that even if he did, your caster level boosting would be too situational for it to matter, or something to that effect. I don't think using word of chaos will convince him that 3.5 is unbalanced (though showing him this thread might, since we're coming up with this plan together).

[Sturmcrow]

No DM would allow that spell!
uh it's in the core book

LOL

I like the idea of knocking him out with one spell but not sure if that proves my point about Clerics being way better than monks.

[Harry]

Okay, Wieldskill can give UMD and Divine Insight can make it easier but is there any way to get the benefit of Beastland Ferocity with a Cleric spell?

Also

so for Word of Chaos

Need to hit CL 25 to kill outright. Beads +4, Ioun Stone +1, Divine Power +X where would I get the rest from?

I could find no spell that replicates beastland ferocity if you want to go that route you have to use a scroll here's a list of ways to raise your caster level if you want to use word of chaos http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level i hope it helps:smallsmile:

[Sturmcrow]

So my original plan was to just charge and full power attack using Surge of Fortune to make the roll a natural 20 and hope that Truestrike would be enough to confirm. But that makes me think I should drop Quicken and DMM Quicken to pick up Imp Bull Rush and then Shock trooper.

Mathematically one charge should kill the Monk, plus can use boots of the skirmisher to immediately take another attack and then Belt of Battle Full Attack.

I could just make a blaster, heck I could use Stormrage and just fly blasting him with bolts until dead using Dispel Magic to make sure he cant fly too. But I wanted to demonstrate that even the Casters could be Melee gods.

Considering whipping up a Druid too since his favorite class is a druid.

[Harry]

So my original plan was to just charge and full power attack using Surge of Fortune to make the roll a natural 20 and hope that Truestrike would be enough to confirm. But that makes me think I should drop Quicken and DMM Quicken to pick up Imp Bull Rush and then Shock trooper.

Mathematically one charge should kill the Monk, plus can use boots of the skirmisher to immediately take another attack and then Belt of Battle Full Attack.

I could just make a blaster, heck I could use Stormrage and just fly blasting him with bolts until dead using Dispel Magic to make sure he cant fly too. But I wanted to demonstrate that even the Casters could be Melee gods.

Considering whipping up a Druid too since his favorite class is a druid.
Why not have two matches? That way you could show him that spelling casting is better then melee then round 2 show him that caster are better at melee then non casters

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I had thought about antimagic but with just base books (no custom stuff) can a pure Monk have access to an Antimagic Field?

In the players handbook a person can hire a spell caster to cast spells. You are having a match were you can take any feat, equipment or service.

[Douglas]

In the players handbook a person can hire a spell caster to cast spells. You are having a match were you can take any feat, equipment or service.
There are two problems with this: 1) if this match is to have any claim to relevancy to a normal adventuring type game, hiring someone to cast short duration buffs on you should be considered essentially equivalent to hiring someone to go adventuring with you, and should be disallowed on that grounds; 2) Antimagic Field is centered on the caster. There might be ways to circumvent that, but they are very much the exception rather than the rule and should not be assumed easily available for sale.

[candycorn]

In the players handbook a person can hire a spell caster to cast spells. You are having a match were you can take any feat, equipment or service.

Antimagic field is also: Personal, which means that said spellcaster can't affect the monk with it.

[Harry]

The cleric could just take initiate of mystra and gain the ability to cast spells in a anti magic field which would mean that the monk looses the ability to use any magic items and The Quivering Palm ability while the cleric still keeps his spells so ... Yea it's even better for the cleric If the monk some how cast anti magic field

[candycorn]

Monk actually loses more in an AMF than cleric does, to be honest. Most of a monk's abilities require magic items to offset weaknesses.

[absolmorph]

Or wear a nice steel cone as a hat. That is affected by a permanent shrink item.
Then wait for the anti-magic field to wear off, or fly up, or teleport a ways away.

Also, DMM Persisted Greater Consumptive Field and a Bag of Holding filled with rats and a Bottle of Air. True Strike and Surge of Fortune to guarantee a hit with your absurdly high strength score.

[Sturmcrow]

In the players handbook a person can hire a spell caster to cast spells. You are having a match were you can take any feat, equipment or service.

If the other guy tries to have a caster cast Antimagic Field to take on the Cleric I think by default that sort of proves my point though...

[dextercorvia]

There is an amulet that produces an AMF -- I think it is in the MIC. If you want to be really sure that it isn't a problem, take Initiate of Mystra. Otherwise, use the tinfoil hat trick.

Actually use both so that he doesn't suppress your long duration buffs.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

If the other guy tries to have a caster cast Antimagic Field to take on the Cleric I think by default that sort of proves my point though...


There are two problems with this: 1) if this match is to have any claim to relevancy to a normal adventuring type game, hiring someone to cast short duration buffs on you should be considered essentially equivalent to hiring someone to go adventuring with you, and should be disallowed on that grounds

it a normal adventuring game, players have access to any service they can afford. Hiring a person to cast buffs or other spells on player will break the point of the match? if i was the oppenent i will have to demand that the cleric cannot cast buffs before the match and they have to do it in combat, because in a normal group the cleric does not only buff themselfs.

[Siosilvar]

it a normal adventuring game, players have access to any service they can afford. Hiring a person to cast buffs or other spells on player will break the point of the match? if i was the oppenent i will have to demand that the cleric cannot cast buffs before the match and they have to do it in combat.

In a normal adventuring game, hiring someone to cast buffs shorter than hours in duration requires them to be within a few minutes or so of danger. Few reasonable NPC casters would be willing to do that, since they've obviously got other things to be doing than wandering around with a troupe of adventurers or they probably would be.

[Sturmcrow]

it a normal adventuring game, players have access to any service they can afford. Hiring a person to cast buffs or other spells on player will break the point of the match? if i was the oppenent i will have to demand that the cleric cannot cast buffs before the match and they have to do it in combat, because in a normal group the cleric does not only buff themselfs.

If the point is to prove that Casters are stronger than the Melee classes in particular Fighters or Monks, then having a spellcaster cast a bunch of spells to buff the monk beforehand just proves my point. If Monks were = to the Tier 1 Casters they wouldn't need a Caster to aid them in the match up

[Kuulvheysoon]

There is an amulet that produces an AMF -- I think it is in the MIC. If you want to be really sure that it isn't a problem, take Initiate of Mystra. Otherwise, use the tinfoil hat trick.

Actually use both so that he doesn't suppress your long duration buffs.

The Antimagic Torc is from Underdark and gives you an AMF 1/day at CL11 for the (not)cool price of 25000gp.

That what you're talking about?

[dextercorvia]

The Antimagic Torc is from Underdark and gives you an AMF 1/day at CL11 for the (not)cool price of 25000gp.

That what you're talking about?

That would be the one. It isn't a serious problem even without IoM or a tinfoil hat. Just be flying more than 30' up. I highly doubt he has nonmagical flight and an AMF.