Me and All my Animal Friends [PF]

[ExemplarofAvg]

So back in 3.5 I was always trying to make a character that could have a familiar and a companion and a mount.

So now that I'm doing Pathfinder I've had the same idea. Right now I'm only trying to figure out how to get a mount or companion as a Cavalier or Druid can take the Eldritch Heritage feats.

Cavalier would be a neat way to swing it, and if he's of the archetype that deals with magic or magic items then it makes a little sense for him to be skilled in arcane knowledge. (Eldritch Heritage: Arcana Bloodline)

So any input would be appreciated for either of these characters would be appreciated.

Cavalier
Mount and Familiar
Horse and Thrush (Bonus to Diplomacy is a good trick for a Cavalier)

or

Druid
Companion and Familiar
Wolf and (Fox or Weasel) (Boost to Reflex is nice)

[Jack Zander]

You can always dip into a level of another class. Isn't there a feat somewhere that lets you stack levels for animal companion or mount or familiar?

[ExemplarofAvg]

You can always dip into a level of another class. Isn't there a feat somewhere that lets you stack levels for animal companion or mount or familiar?

Not that I know of, or could find. If there is a dip would be the easiest method.

If nothing can be found to give a Cavalier a Companion, might just go with a Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge, Levels stacking that way was fine with my DM before, but that was when Theurge only gave spells. And the new theurge lends itself nicely to epic levels for the prc.

But not to be railroaded, main topic.

How to get a companion, familiar and mount all into one build and preferably get them all to scale with level. (or at least without much deficit)

[grarrrg]

You're almost there already.

Full Mount:
Cavalier 4, any archetype that keeps Mount at level 1 and gets Expert Trainer at level 4.
Take the Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat when you can (probably at character level 7), your Mount now progresses based on Character level.

Full Animal Companion:
Druid 16 (almost any archetype will work), or Falconer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) Ranger 16.
Take the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) Feat, you are treated as +4 levels for your Companion.
What a coincidence. We took exactly 4 levels of Cavalier...how nice.

Full Familiar:
It is not recommended that you get a Full Progression Familiar, it is quite expensive, and you'll waste FOUR feats on it. You'd also need 17+ Cha, and all you'd get out of it is an extra +1 Natural Armor and +1 Intelligence.
If you're content to have a Familiar at Character level -2, then you only need 2 feats and 13 Cha (MUCH more reasonable)
Skill Focus (Knowledge(Any))
Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) > Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) > Familiar at Character level -2.

HIGHLY advised you stop here.

Improved Eldritch Heritage (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage) > Depending on your DM's interpretation, this does NOTHING for you (if ruled that it works with Druid, then it is somewhat useful).
Greater Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage) > You use full Character level for your Eldritch abilities (other use it subject to DM).


There you go.
If you went the Druid route, you now have 16 Bab, and 8th level Divine spells.
If you went Ranger, you now have 20 Bab and lesser Divine spells.
Either way you have a level 20 Mount, a level 20 Animal Companion, and a level 18-ish Familiar.

[ExemplarofAvg]

You're almost there already.

Full Mount:
Cavalier 4, any archetype that keeps Mount at level 1 and gets Expert Trainer at level 4.
Take the Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat when you can (probably at character level 7), you're Mount now progresses based on Character level.

Full Animal Companion:
Druid 16 (almost any archetype will work), or Falconer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) Ranger 16.
Take the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) Feat, you are treated as +4 levels for your Companion.
What a coincidence. We took exactly 4 levels of Cavalier...how nice.

Full Familiar:
It is not recommended that you get a Full Progression Familiar, it is quite expensive, and you'll waste FOUR feats on it. You'd also need 17+ Cha, and all you'd get out of it is an extra +1 Natural Armor and +1 Intelligence.
If you're content to have a Familiar at Character level -2, then you only need 2 feats and 13 Cha (MUCH more reasonable)
Skill Focus (Knowledge(Any))
Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) > Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) > Familiar at Character level -2.

HIGHLY advised you stop here.

Improved Eldritch Heritage (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage) > Depending on your DM's interpretation, this does NOTHING for you (if ruled that it works with Druid, then it is somewhat useful).
Greater Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage) > You use full Character level for your Eldritch abilities (other use it subject to DM).


There you go.
If you went the Druid route, you now have 16 Bab, and 8th level Divine spells.
If you went Ranger, you now have 20 Bab and lesser Divine spells.
Either way you have a level 20 Mount, a level 20 Animal Companion, and a level 18-ish Familiar.

What I'm picking up is, that by level 5 I could have a Horse(Mount), a Wolf(Companion) and a Thrush(Familair) as a Cavalier 4/Druid 1, Hot Dog.
As for the choices I wanted something to ride, something to attack and something to scout (I know familiars don't scout, but it can speak my language and is just a little bird) Although I think a Falcon would be a better scout (and a little tougher) I just can't think of a Familiar for attacking at least not without touch spell support, which it doesn't really have.

[Jack Zander]

Yes! I knew there was something that let you stack levels for mounts. Just couldn't recall what it was.

[grarrrg]

What I'm picking up is, that by level 5 I could have a Horse(Mount), a Wolf(Companion) and a Thrush(Familair) as a Cavalier 4/Druid 1, Hot Dog.
As for the choices I wanted something to ride, something to attack and something to scout (I know familiars don't scout, but it can speak my language and is just a little bird)

Just keep in mind that ALL of your feats are going towards your furry friends:
Level 1, Skill Focus
3, Eldritch Heritage
5, Boon Companion
7, Horse Master

You should probably go Human or Half-Elf for the Bonus Feat.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Just keep in mind that ALL of your feats are going towards your furry friends:
Level 1, Skill Focus
3, Eldritch Heritage
5, Boon Companion
7, Horse Master

You should probably go Human or Half-Elf for the Bonus Feat (

Haha, yeah, I already did the math on that. Looking at Human, although Half-Elf could work too. I understand flanking and what not and basic combat manoeuvres I should be plenty fine. Especially with first level druid casting and decent combat skills. There's a reason it's my first and favourite class.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Final Build is going to be
Cleric 4/Cavalier 4/Cleric +12

Glimpse of the build

If Human (Half-Elf switches Selective Channel and Skill Focus)
H: Selective Channel (16 Charisma ensures my friends aren't hurt, to hell with allies)
1 Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcane)
3 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline)
5 Boon Companion
7 Horse Master

Companion gained through Animal Domain. (Second Domain?)
This build is Mad but I like the channel better than all the druid features (I mean I love them, but not what I'm playing for)

If no good options exist I think I might go for Crusader, might being the key word, only to get some actual combat stuff tossed in, or Theologian, boost my companion so it's only at a −1... Actually, could go for both. Weigh in on that idea?

[grarrrg]

Final Build is going to be
Cleric 4/Cavalier 4/Cleric +12

7 Horse Master

Companion gained through Animal Domain. (Second Domain?)
...
If no good options exist I think I might go for Crusader, might being the key word, only to get some actual combat stuff tossed in, or Theologian, boost my companion so it's only at a −1... Actually, could go for both. Weigh in on that idea?

Make it Cleric 3/Cavalier 4, otherwise you have to wait until level 9 to get Horse Master.
Edit: But Cleric/Domain doesn't give Companion until level 4....GRRRRR!
Well, that's fine, Horsemaster at level 9 it is then.

The Scalykind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/scalykind-domain) domain gives you an Animal Companion at Level-2 (instead of -3), but you must take a Snake as your companion. Add in Theologian and you're back up to Companion=Level.
And/Or the Saurian Sub-Domain which gives you a DINOSAUR Companion at level-2 (but it was published on the Paizo Blog, so DM approval is probably necessary).
Hmm...the only Deities with Scalykind on their list are Dahak and Ydersius, and they're both Chaotic Evil... You are probably better off doing an "ideal" Cleric then a specific Deity if you choose Scalykind.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Make it Cleric 3/Cavalier 4, otherwise you have to wait until level 9 to get Horse Master.

The Scalykind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/scalykind-domain) domain gives you an Animal Companion at Level-2 (instead of -3), but you must take a Snake as your companion. Add in Theologian and you're back up to Companion=Level.
And/Or the Saurian Sub-Domain which gives you a DINOSAUR Companion at level-2 (but it was published on the Paizo Blog, so DM approval is probably necessary).
Hmm...the only Deities with Scalykind on their list are Dahak and Ydersius, and they're both Chaotic Evil... You are probably better off doing an "ideal" Cleric then a specific Deity if you choose Scalykind.

Cleric 3 doesn't nab me the Animal Companion, that's at level 4, I'm fine with Horse Trainer at Level 9, checked with DM, Theologian and Crusader are Stacking go. My build for ninth level will be spoiled below.


Valiel

Half-Elf LN Cleric 5/Cavalier 4
Hp 5d8+4d10
Bab +7
Fort +8
Ref +4
Will +5

Str (Second)
Con (Fourth)
Dex (Sixth)
Int (Fifth)
Wis (Third)
Cha (First)

Aura
Channel Energy 3d6
Domains: Animal
Companion Lv 8 Roc
Domain Secret: (Extended Beast Shape 2 min/level +2 Str, +2 Ac)

Order:
Order Ability:
Challenge 2/day
Tactician
Mount Lv 9
Expert Trainer

Feats
HE: Skill Focus: (Knowledge: Arcane)
B: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
1 Selective Channeling
3 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline: Familiar Lv 7 Weasel)
5 Boon Companion (Companion)
B: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
7 Power Attack
9 Horse Trainer


Spells per Day
3 Lv 0
2 lv 1
1 lv 2
1 Lv 3 (Domain Spell Only, Unless Wisdom allows for more)

Basic Plan rub shoulders with the enemy and fight (before or after buffs) keep them flanked for my allies, have friends attack when needed. Fire off Inflicts. Skills will be social focused. Think of a person who deals death on the battlefield but can toast with the dukes. While still caring for animals. For example his mink fur shall be real live mink.

[grarrrg]

If you can, you might want to take the Feather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/animal-domain/feather) Sub-Domain.
You trade away Speak with Animals, and gain a bonus on Perception checks.

[ExemplarofAvg]

If you can, you might want to take the Feather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/animal-domain/feather) Sub-Domain.
You trade away Speak with Animals, and gain a bonus on Perception checks.

I did think of that, but being able to easily command my minions where to go felt more.. useful, we have a ranged rogue so perception should be covered by him. If anything I'm going with the fur for a little bit of extra mobility and some buffs.

[Jack Zander]

Have you considered squeezing in a few levels of summoner as well?

[ExemplarofAvg]

Have you considered squeezing in a few levels of summoner as well?

Thought about it.
But to have a fair levelled
Mount
Companion
Familiar
AND
Eidolon
Well it might be a bit much, and a little impossible. If possible though, please enlighten me.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Unless you can get domain granted powers without being a cleric. In which case a Cavalier 4/Summoner 16 should get me as close as possible. Netting a Lv 18 Familiar, Lv 20 Mount, Lv 16 Eidolon and Lv ? Animal Companion going to assume Lv 17 as the Cleric Animal Domain grants a companion at −3.

[Coidzor]

The thing about familiars is that the familiar benefits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar) for getting a higher level for counting as the master of the familiar don't really matter much unless one wants to be able to talk to it without having a raven.

You get every special feature of the familiar with an effective master level of 13. The rest is just meaningless natural armor and intelligence bonus. Sharing your skill ranks and having half of your HP is an always on given just like in 3.5 from everything I've been able to see. So even just counting as a 1st level master of a familiar isn't too shabby for what you'd use it for anyway at high level.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The thing about familiars is that the familiar benefits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar) for getting a higher level for counting as the master of the familiar don't really matter much unless one wants to be able to talk to it without having a raven.

You get every special feature of the familiar with an effective master level of 13. The rest is just meaningless natural armor and intelligence bonus. Sharing your skill ranks and having half of your HP is an always on given just like in 3.5 from everything I've been able to see. So even just counting as a 1st level master of a familiar isn't too shabby for what you'd use it for anyway at high level.

Yeah, much more of a "can this be done" than a "absolutely have to have this"
And to be completely honest DM sniffed wind of my true plan today and asked me about it. He was a little concerned that not only did I manage to achieve my goal in a fully legal no loopholes manner, but I wanted to try to have all four cohorts (and maybe the leadership feat too, :P)

So, character is cancelled. But I still wanna see how far this can go.

[Coidzor]

He was a little concerned that not only did I manage to achieve my goal in a fully legal no loopholes manner, but I wanted to try to have all four cohorts (and maybe the leadership feat too, :P)

Oh? Pathfinder has 4 ways to get cohorts without leadership?

[ExemplarofAvg]

Oh? Pathfinder has 4 ways to get cohorts without leadership?

Ah, right, in my group we've labelled any extra creature given to you by a class to be a cohort. So Familiar, Companion, Mount, Eidolon and Cohort, all interchangeable in my circles.

[grarrrg]

.....So even just counting as a 1st level master of a familiar isn't too shabby for what you'd use it for anyway at high level.

Agreed, but since we can't spare any class levels to get a Familiar, we have to use the Feat option, which gives us a scaling Master level anyway.


Thought about it.
But to have a fair levelled
Mount
Companion
Familiar
AND
Eidolon
Well it might be a bit much, and a little impossible. If possible though, please enlighten me.

The conflict is between Companion and Eidolon.
The others can be had relatively easy, but there is no way to get both an Animal Companion AND an Eidolon at decent power levels.
Having already spent 4 levels on Cavalier, this gives 16 to work with.
Familiar is gotten through Feats, still 16 levels.
Assuming we go with Druid, we have a total of 20 levels to divide between Eidolon and Companion. 16 actual levels, +4 to Companion from Boon Companion feat. There is no Boon-Equivalent for Eidolons.
Also, assuming you divide levels at all evenly, then your Casting/other-features will suffer, i.e. Druid 9/Summoner 7 has 5th level Divine spells and 3rd Arcane spells, whereas Druid 16 has 8th level spells or Summoner 16 has 6th level spells.
So while you 'could' get 4 companions, it's probably best to stick with just 3.


And to be completely honest DM sniffed wind of my true plan today and asked me about it. He was a little concerned that not only did I manage to achieve my goal in a fully legal no loopholes manner, but I wanted to try to have all four cohorts (and maybe the leadership feat too, :P)

So, character is cancelled. But I still wanna see how far this can go.

He was concerned? That you did something fully legal? (Shenanigans hells yes, illegal no).
I advise you show him the Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) and ask if you can play that instead (just as legal, 10-times the shenanigans!).
He'll be BEGGING you to play the "One-Man-Party".

[ExemplarofAvg]

The conflict is between Companion and Eidolon.

Yeah, the only thing I could think of would be to gain domain powers without being a cleric (namely, animal domain, 4th level power gives an animal companion at −3)




He was concerned? That you did something fully legal? (Shenanigans hells yes, illegal no). He'll be BEGGING you to play the "One-Man-Party".

He's not fond of the idea that I can outclass all other members of the party. The Rogue and Gunslinger were okay with it. But there was some debate about their use. I joked about using Animal Growth on the Weasel to make it big and have it attack, the DM wasn't a fan.

[Coidzor]

Didn't they tone down the animal companion in Pathfinder? Past low levels when you'd only have the one anyway it seems like it'd hardly be an issue if the other players have competent characters. :smallconfused:

[ExemplarofAvg]

Didn't they tone down the animal companion in Pathfinder? Past low levels when you'd only have the one anyway it seems like it'd hardly be an issue if the other players have competent characters. :smallconfused:

That's kind of the thing, it still attacks intelligently because I am controlling it. While my fellow players have competent characters.. in theory they are in the nicest way, not too competent themselves.

Rogue's first move in combat is to hide, And then he attacks from range, but not 30ft range, farther than that. No he didn't take the feat, talent or archetype to be able to do that, he's hidden, so of course he should get the sneak attack, why shouldn't he? That's ridiculous, oh, now there's a new way of stringing those swear words together, yeah, me and my druid will be over... anywhere else, maybe over there with the Cleric Warforged they cast divinely they should be nice. Oh, hey, you're being this so you can heal well that's good... oh, heal yourself? What about us? oh, alright fair enough. So what spells do you prefer? all of them, okay favourite spell? you never actually learned how the spellcasting in this game works, did you.... no alright, I'm gonna go over there with the Duskblade(now magus, same idea) "BLOOD, MURDER, DEATH" well his priorities are in order and he can play his character, but I'm gonna go play fetch with my wolf, you guys have fun over there and try not to kill each other

Sad fact, I didn't make a damn thing up in there, that is our characters first meeting the last time we all got together. (Criminals on the loose, Magus is a bounty hunter idea, Rogue would gain a pardon, robocop is well, robocop. My characters involvement, boredom, they were inventing a new spell and got disturbed)

[ExemplarofAvg]

On the latest rereading, not that it well and truly matters anyways.
A Mount and an Animal Companion are THE SAME THING, I forgot or misread it seems.

So a Cavalier 4/Eidolon 16 could have all three. (Familiar, Mount/Companion and an Eidolon.)

[grarrrg]

A Mount and an Animal Companion are THE SAME THING, I forgot or misread it seems.

Yes and no.
A Companion can be a mount, but a Mount is not necessarily a companion.

For proof, I direct you to the Nature Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/nature-warden) PrC:

Requirements....
Special: Animal companion class feature*....
* An oracle of nature’s bonded mount ability counts as an animal companion class ability for the purpose of this prestige class.
Druid/Ranger/Oracle can get in, Paladin/Cavalier cannot.

Druid: No restrictions on base type.
Ranger: Some restrictions on base type.
Paladin: Must be "ride-able", has minimum Int of 6, eventually gains Celestial Template and Spell Resistance.
Oracle: Must be "ride-able", has minimum Int of 6.
Cavalier: Must be "ride-able".

[ExemplarofAvg]

Yes and no.
A Companion can be a mount, but a Mount is not necessarily a companion.

For proof, I direct you to the Nature Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/nature-warden) PrC:

Druid/Ranger/Oracle can get in, Paladin/Cavalier cannot.

Druid: No restrictions on base type.
Ranger: Some restrictions on base type.
Paladin: Must be "ride-able", has minimum Int of 6, eventually gains Celestial Template and Spell Resistance.
Oracle: Must be "ride-able", has minimum Int of 6.
Cavalier: Must be "ride-able".

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier#TOC-Mount-Ex-
Specifically: This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level.

Just to satisfy the "Get all the bonus critters" idea.

[Cieyrin]

I suppose Packlords, Beast Masters and Broodmasters (don't take Broodmaster, if they were designed like Packlords and Beast Masters they would actually be useful) aren't worth mentioning, hmm? :smallconfused:

[grarrrg]

I suppose Packlords, Beast Masters and Broodmasters (don't take Broodmaster, if they were designed like Packlords and Beast Masters they would actually be useful) aren't worth mentioning, hmm? :smallconfused:

Well, the main goal is to get at or near Full Progression with as many 'pets' as you can, with the emphasis on Quality, not Quantity. Pack Lord (et al.) sort of defeats the purpose by making you split the levels amongst many smaller 'pets'.

Also, I see Broodmaster as slightly MORE useful than Packlord.
Packlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/pack-lord) has the option of between 1 and 20 companions, but must divide his effective level amongst all companions.

Broodmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/broodmaster) can have between 2 and 8 Eidolons, must divide the Eidolon bonuses/levels amongst all companions, BUT all Eidolons have FULL progression Bab and Saves.

At low levels I can see Packlord being better (2 levels into a Companion is 3HD and 2 feats, whereas 2 levels into an Eidolon is only 2HD and 1 feat).
But at some point the sheer loss of Bab/Saves will give the advantage to the Broodmaster.



But it does bring up some odd rules questions:

Cavalier 4/Druid (Packlord) 6
w/Horse Master feat

Does Cavalier Stack with Druid?
How does that work with Horse Master?

Do I have a level 10 Mount w/6 levels worth of Animal Companions?
Or do I have 10 levels worth of Animal Companions and 1 must be "ride able"?
Or do they stack, but I somehow have 14 levels to work with? Or 16 levels?

[Cieyrin]

Also, I see Broodmaster as slightly MORE useful than Packlord.
Packlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/pack-lord) has the option of between 1 and 20 companions, but must divide his effective level amongst all companions.

Broodmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/broodmaster) can have between 2 and 8 Eidolons, must divide the Eidolon bonuses/levels amongst all companions, BUT all Eidolons have FULL progression Bab and Saves.

As nice as BAB and Saves are, that kinda makes all your Eidolons glass cannons and I think I prefer not having to share feats and skills between my minions. It's just mechanically awkward besides.

[grarrrg]

As nice as BAB and Saves are, that kinda makes all your Eidolons glass cannons and I think I prefer not having to share feats and skills between my minions.

We are definitely agreed on the Feats. Broodmaster gets screwed on those, but at least they have Evolution points to help make up for it.

There are not that many Skills you'd need/want multiples of anyway, so spreading around isn't an issue there.

And Eidolon Glass Cannons are better than Companion Glass Pistols. :smalltongue:


It's just mechanically awkward besides.

Paizo.
That is all.