3.5 soul knife

[zigato]

I'm going to be in a new campaign im going to play as a level 3 soul knife with 2000gp to spend right now i was looking for help on a future build/items

i know soul knife is one of the weaker classes i was just looking for some fun things to buff this class up with

well truth fully the party is balanced not power house or tier 2 pc im just looking for fun things on this class

[RMS Oceanic]

- Is this campaign a one off? What level do you expect to reach? What do you want the Soulknife to do at higher levels?
- What are other members of your party playing?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Are you married to the Soulknife class? On it's own, it has very little to offer save for its "free weapon" aspect.

A stronger (and much, much more flexible) option would be to take the Souldbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) alternate class feature for the Psychic Warrior, grabbing whatever psionic powers/feats float your boat.

[Rejusu]

Afraid that the best advice you'll get here is "Don't play a Soulknife". Problem is it's a bad bad class. You've got a weapon that scales slower than regular magic weapons and other than that you have no real class features to speak of. On top of that you don't even have full BAB progression on a class whose only purpose is to hit things! Plus you only have one viable prestige class route that actually advances your class features and that turns you from a melee fighter into an archer. I rate the fighter and the monk above the Soulknife and that says a lot.

In short don't play a Soulknife. Or if you do make your highest score wisdom (second highest con), then only take two levels of soulknife, take a two level fighter dip for bonus feats and a 1 level dip of something with full BAB (I used Barbarian) then go straight into Soulbow. Soulbow is the one thing that redeems Soulknife and even then you end up playing a one trick pony and a rather different class to what you started with.

Or as the above suggestion play a Psychic warrior with the soulbound weapon ACF (and make sure you take the mantled warrior ACF too, just have SW replace your 1st level bonus feat instead).

If you're really dead set on playing Soulknife at the very least try and see if your DM will let you use the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife). It's a vastly improved version that doesn't suffer from incredibly poor design like the 3.5 edition SK.

If you do get permission to use the PF SK (and if you don't I strongly advise you just don't bother with SK) then you might want to check this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203014).

[eggs]

The least bad Soulknives take 5 levels then go War Mind. That should allocate some of your skill points ahead of time. You might sprinkle some Kensai levels in, if you have a hankering for buying weapon enhancements with levels.

As far as the Soulknife itself, both of its Mind's Eye variants (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) are generally worth taking, for some bonus feats and one power known. Dimension Hop from Complete Psionic is typically a good option there, for a bit of minor swift/utility teleportation.

As far as feat planning, it's best to just be blunt and treat the Soulknife levels as dead levels (no matter how fun their minor perks might be). This means that Soulknife builds generally work like Warrior or Aristocrat builds: Hyperspecialize in one task, like charging or AoOs (though no reach weapon hurts), and throw all your feats at it. Once you get into War Mind, you have a bit of an obligation to pick up Practiced Manifester to fight dispels/generally increase options, so you can typically expect your feat chain (whatever it is) to mature around level 9.

Until that 5th level, a masterwork longspear is a much better weapon than the Soulknife's mind blade (and even then, it's still competitive), so you'll probably want to pick up one of those for the intermediate period.

But in general, a Swordsage with Dreamscarred Press's Mind Blade feats (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/mind-blade-feats) will both capture the feel and have less of a nightmare capturing the Soulknife's sneakiness, weapon summons and even its Psionic flair (since the Swordsage can actually do things through its brain-training).

[Qwertystop]

I've heard that one good Soulknife fix is to gestalt it with Soulborn. Two bad classes that together come out acceptable.

[Particle_Man]

Don't listen to the haters! If you want to play a soulknife, then play one. If you keep listening to the optimizers you will eventually end up playing nothing but tier 1 classes. :smalltongue: Try it and see if you have fun with it. If you don't you can always retire it and play another character instead.

If you are good, use lots of Jedi quotes. If you are evil, use lots of Sith quotes. :smallsmile:

When not fighting, have fun manifesting your mindblade and unmanifesting it: "Blade on, blade off. Blade on, blade off. Blade on, blade off. Blade on, . . ." :smallbiggrin:

I believe there is a feat that lets you regain psionic focus more quickly (in combat this could combine with the psionic weapon feat). That would be worth looking into at higher levels. Until then, hit and run is a good choice. You might also start building up to Spring Attack. Another alternative is to look for psionic feats the require you to maintain your focus and take all of them, leaving your focus on all the time (later on you get speed of thought for free anyhow)

What are your stats/race? For skills you can get Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently, which is nice. Tumble not a bad choice either (although if you go the spring attack route you will get mobility so it is not as necessary). Jump helps tumble. Autohypnosis is a bit odd-ball but goes well with the whole "Jedi" theme.

Since you have your weapon, it would probably be good to invest your money into defence, like good armour, or a ring of protection. Or go for style and get a mithril chain shirt. SK's are all about style, anyhow.

Anyhow, best of luck!

Oh, here is a link to a handbook:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19570894/Soulknife_Build_Guide_38;_Compendium

[Gavinfoxx]

Uhhh... if you listen to the optimizers, you generally end up playing classes that are Tier 4 and better. This is generally a good thing. You don't generally end up 'just playing Tier 1 classes'... Mostly, we suggest people cut out Tier 5 and 6, as we find classes of that low amount of power/versatility level better suited to, you know. NPC's.

[Red_Dog]

Ok, I am sorry. I am suppose to be the "underdog advocate". Hell, my favorite class is Hexblade and favorite PrC is Assassin...

But TRUST me when I say it => Soulknife can not be redeemed as is.

The best possible place for it, one would imagine, would be in the world with little to no magical equipment? Well, funny one would think that, because I spent 2 solid weeks trying to fit a soulknife into a role of a guy that says "I have a weapon". In my campaign, magical equipment en mass is HARD to get. So naturally I though, "Hey you know who would be useful now? Soulknife!". Boy was I wrong...

You might be able to sneak around ok (skill list is THE only thing that's ok about it), but you can't do any damage because *drumroll* not ONLY you have 3/4BAB, but guess what? You can't Power Attack with a bloody short sword! No matter ho many hands you hold it in!

In order to do any damage what-so-ever, one needs to go with Deep Imact+PA+psionic mediation combo. This way you expend focus, PA in full, than as move action regain focus. This is "shock trooper's alternative". So even with bad BAB, you can kind do ok? Right? Wrong..

Not unless you march out to the enemy and forgo your sneaking edge. The last straw for me was when I realized => Shortsword(normal knife) can't PA, so deep impact is useless, and it takes a FULL round action to make your butterknife into something worth while. That means NO sneaking, because where are you going to hide a Glowing bastard sword? No sane DM will let you hide with that without any negative modifiers.

So in conclusion, if you are interested, I could GLADLY give you my "mildly psychic ranger" build. Or a mildly Psychic paladin [worse because, you know, its a paladin]. They both feel like soulknife would, only they don't suck as much, and sadly don't have glowing swords all the time. Only when they strike[see Deep Impact picture in expanded psionica]. Otherwise, I would love to help you, I really would... But I burned 2.5 weeks trying to make something worse-while from a soulknife as a DM [if a Rank-n-file NPC died, I don't care, but I couldn't make them effective in any way]. I am just trying to save you the 2.5weeks I lost = ]

But goodluck regardless!^^

P.S. The 3 possible uses for levels of soulknife=>

Soulknife 1 for FREE Hidden Talent. Cheap? Yes. But, couple with able learner, one gets an "ok" skill list if you are not going skill monkey after that. The able learner needs you to be Human.
Soulknife 1 for FREE hidden weapon if you are an assassin. Be mindful, you will still need to use sleight of hand in order to initiate a surprise round as its a move action to draw the damn thing, so moveaction+SoH behind your back, than attack.
Soulknife 2 for soulbow. Soulbows are pretty awesome. I love there BANE ANY trick on low levels ^^. They are also a way to duel-wield bows without perma-morhing into arrow daemon. Over all, this is THE use for soulknife.

P.S.2*EDIT* Just some math that I guess I should have mentioned. If the campaign is E6... than there is some chance to play a Soulknife as you don't need it to scale a lot. Though I can't imagine what are you going to do with feats O_o. Anyways for E6 Soulknife=>
SK 4/Fighter 2. This nets you BAB+5 by lvl6.
Psychic Weapon & Greater Psychic weapon gives 4d6. Mind Strike can net extra d8 on Psichic Strike. Even with Mindstrike(gotten on lvl3?) you need 1.5 rounds to refocus. 1 full-round to refocus, and move action to fuel psychic strike. During this, you can't move, and provoke AoOs.

Alternatively... You could start with fighter 1, than soulknife 3, than Fighter 1 than Soulknife 1. Why? Simple, on lvl4, you get bonus psychic feat instead of useless psychic strike and get Psionic Meditation and on lvl 6 get Greater Psychic weapon. This means that every round you can strike and refocus. You also don't need to reshape mindblade into anything. You get your Str bonus, and you Psychic Weapon. Since you have a hand free, strap a heavy a shield on it. And get armor in a jar(Psicoactive Skin of ectoplasm). The rest of the feats are irrelevant in this build. Take w/e pleases you.

There now, you deal ~16+Str dmg per round on average... Its TERRIBLE, but at E6 you could get by, if you risk you butt on EVERY single mission by scouting[due to having an actual skill list] ahead and potentially being eaten and etc. The party might not hate your existence ^^

And finally => http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872658/The_Soulknife_Handbook
Also here => A handbook. ^^

[eggs]

I don't think it's fair to say Soulknife can't be redeemed. You can still work Soulknife levels into Chameleon, Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage, Ur-Priest, Warmind, etc. builds. The key is just recognizing that Soulknife levels won't carry a character's weight alone; something else will have to serve as a mechanical engine. I don't see how it could be minmaxy or fun-hating to point that out.

Back on topic, at level 3 with 2000 gp, I'd recommend a Masterwork Longspear+Chain Shirt, either a Healing belt or an Anklet of Translocation (both from the Magic Item Compendium; which one depends on group healing procedures), and a stock of miscellaneous tools and practicalities.

Also, it's probably worth pointing out the love that the handbook linked above gives to terrible options like Tempest, Incarnum Blade, Samurai, EWP:Bastard Sword, OTWF, etc. The handbook doesn't give much advice, and the advice it does give is pretty bad/not particularly relevant. But (even though this dead horse has been whipped) the thing to remember is that the Soulknife doesn't have any tactically distinguishing features - most advice that applies to a Fighter will apply to it (beside the reduced BA/feats); if looking for general advice, Dictum Mortuum's 2007 Fighter Handbook is probably the most useful build guide here.

[Particle_Man]

You do realize that you can power attack later on with the mindblade as bastard sword, right?

[Gavinfoxx]

You know what a level 1 character that actually uses weapons, and spends one feat, can do? Power attack with any one handed or two handed melee weapon. Do you know how soon, by wealth by level, you can afford a magic weapon? Level 3. Get your greatsword or falchion or guisarme or whatever, and go to town. Thus Soulblade sucks...

[Red_Dog]

You do realize that you can power attack later on with the mindblade as bastard sword, right?

I addressed that. You suppose to have a drop on enemy due to having a skill list and not a Halloween costume[que fighter's "skill list"]. No DM will let you Hide while you reshape a mildly glowing blade into a light-saber light levels. If you could re-shape the butterknife into a bastard sword in the morning and free draw it as a bastard sword every time from there on, you would be kinda in the clear. But you can't do that = \. That's the issue I was talking about.

P.S.
=>eggs

if looking for general advice, Dictum Mortuum's 2007 Fighter Handbook is probably the most useful build guide here.
Unfortunately that's not really true = \ They key stuff that Fighter runs on is the fact that it gets the blasted 6=BAB at lvl 6 when he gets a feat. Now if a fighter multiclassed and missed the 6=BAB on lvl6, that's ok, he'll get a bonus feat almost the next level. Most classes don't have that luxury. This is most important because the best feat chains happen when BAB=6. Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Leap Attack(skill ranks, not BAB here, but still lvl6) right at the time when you get the feat. Soulknife not only looses dmg with bad BAB, he slows down to a grinding halt in progression for the most basic feat chains = \. Lvl9 is not an ok level to start contributing to the party if you begin the campaign at lvl3 = \.
Having Soulknife 1 for easy Hidden Talent, skills and free back up weapon and free weapon focus is not too bad. But I'd do it as a dip later on.

[eggs]

You do realize that you can power attack later on with the mindblade as bastard sword, right?
With the Soulknife's crummy BA and lack of supportive abilities, it really sucks at power attacking. If you look at a reasonably optimized Soulknife's attack bonus, then look at its target ACs at every level, you'll probably notice that Power Attack is going to be worse than Weapon Specialization for most of that Soulknife's career. And buying Psionic Weapon/Psychic Meditation/Deep Impact is just throwing good feats after bad.

EDIT:


Unfortunately that's not really true = \ They key stuff that Fighter runs on is the fact that it gets the blasted 6=BAB at lvl 6 when he gets a feat.
That's true; I was trying to address damage control in Soulknife builds (making the best of a bad thing) rather than goal-oriented optimization. If going Soulknife, I think level 9 maturation is about the best you could reasonably expect. But you're right - compromising BA6 at ECL6 is crippling for most melee builds, the Soulknife included.

[Red_Dog]

=>eggs

Speaking of dmg control. I've been reading the Handbook I linked[I read it before but only the 3.5core&supplements parts, not ebberon or anything else]... DargonMag341, Ebberon & something called "Mind Unveiled"[no idea what's that at all] give few dmg control options to the soulknife. Its not much, but its something. But the amount of feats it would take to dmg control this pretty much means fighter dips, so normal and bonus soulknife feats could go straight into psychic feats.

P.S. *EDIT!* Deceptive blade feat looks amazing when you get free draw. Free draw until you feint ALL the enemies. This deserves a picture! ^^ See spoiler! ^^

Deceptive Blade
Prerequisites: Able to manifest Mind Blade.
Benefit: You may feint in combat as part of the action used to materialize your mind blade. As well, add Bluff to your list of class skills.
Special: If you possess the Improved Feint and Focused Mind Strike, you may also charge your psychic strike as part of the action used to materialize your mind blade.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/17313279.jpg


*For the record, I despise ECL6=BAB6 for all the required or at least nice chains. When I make NPCs in bulk, that's a bane of my existence because I both must make them interesting and effective, and its hard when BAB MUST equal 6 at ECL6 ^^*

[Particle_Man]

You know what a level 1 character that actually uses weapons, and spends one feat, can do? Power attack with any one handed or two handed melee weapon. .

Well, not the rogue, factotum or any other non-full BAB character at level 1, since there is no BAB to lose, and thus nothing to power attack with.

This is making me want to play a soulknife. :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

What? You don't need a +1 bab to get the power attack feat. Just Strength 13.

And Rogues can Power Attack just fine. Just be strength based and use a Morningstar or something. Sure, you can't use the feat at level 1 -- but you can still get the feat. By the time you have a magic morningstar or longspear (level 3), they can power attack usefully. Strength based Rogues rock.

[Godskook]

Don't listen to the haters! If you want to play a soulknife, then play one. If you keep listening to the optimizers you will eventually end up playing nothing but tier 1 classes. :smalltongue: Try it and see if you have fun with it. If you don't you can always retire it and play another character instead.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

That's simply not true. Tier 3, imho, is probably the best tier to play, since it balances fun/effectiveness best.

Also, Zaq would like a word with you, among others.

[Red_Dog]

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

That's simply not true. Tier 3, imho, is probably the best tier to play, since it balances fun/effectiveness best.

Also, Zaq would like a word with you, among others.

Leave Zaq out of this, he suffered enough = P
**Though the painful truth of 3.5 is that one needs magic 9/10 times as it replaces any class feature/skill/everything you get from other places. I do agree, that the game should be played at T3 and only at T3. Or at least in ONE tier in camaign so everyone feels adequate***

On to some constructive advise since I blew off soulknife steam already ^^

One way, you could dmg control is to reduce the MADness with Shadow blade from ToB. A single level of swordsage coupled with fighter(or swashbuckler, you need weapon finesse, makes no difference how are you getting it, and swashy has a skill-list) gives you a way to add DEX to both dmg and attack. It bars Psychoactive skin or other armor that caps your dex, but a mithril chain-shirt does just fine. Also, since you are going to be in island of blades stance, you can partner up with more successful melee classes like ... anyone else in order to consonantly flank people.^^

**EDIT Sry I am forgetful today. A way to improve soulknife would be getting him Iaijutsu Focus perhaps with Human paragon. This works thematically [focusing chi/focusing one's soul to make a weapon] and mechanically because when he gets free-draw, this means he can draw it on every attack. It is a free action after all... *unless I am missing something*?O_o Combine it with some odd custom skill bonus item of say +10? would make a neat build of flashing/flickering glowing blade^^

P.S. That gives me an idea for a strange strange low lvl NPC unit => SK1/Fighter 2/Swashy 1. Falanx fighting with shadowblade. Flank the unit they are facing, sneak well and use DEX to pump reflex save vs arrow volleys^^. Its weird as hell, and has plenty of better alternatives, but does ok at that level. ^^

**FINAL EDIT** I should learn to read >_< only one free action draw can be made per round >_> so no really good Iaijutsu Focus, and no Feinting All the Enemies >_>

[Rejusu]

Don't listen to the haters! If you want to play a soulknife, then play one. If you keep listening to the optimizers you will eventually end up playing nothing but tier 1 classes. :smalltongue: Try it and see if you have fun with it. If you don't you can always retire it and play another character instead.

Discouraging people from playing genuinely bad classes is not the same as telling them to play Pun-pun. The 3.5 SK is just flawed on so many levels that it simply won't be very fun to play. It can only do one thing and it does it BADLY. It's main gimmick of a weapon that advances with you is inferior to a magic weapon you could get at the same level. If he really wants to play a SK that badly though he should try and use the Pathfinder Soulknife, as it looks like it's at least playable.


I don't think it's fair to say Soulknife can't be redeemed. You can still work Soulknife levels into Chameleon, Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage, Ur-Priest, Warmind, etc. builds. The key is just recognizing that Soulknife levels won't carry a character's weight alone; something else will have to serve as a mechanical engine. I don't see how it could be minmaxy or fun-hating to point that out.

If it's not the PF SK and you don't go into SB later then I'm not sure how it's redeemable. It's only distinguishing feature is it's self-scaling weapon. If you multi-class or PrC out you give up advancing that weapon, once you give up advancing it you're really better off just replacing it with a better magic weapon and once you do those SK levels just become nothing but dead weight.

I mean let's put it this way, if you were a multi-class SK with 5 levels in SK and 5 levels in Swordsage you'd be a 10th level character with a +1 weapon. A +1 weapon... at character level 10. You can easily get a +3 or +4 weapon by then. I mean the 3.5 mind blade is inferior to a magic weapon if you go pure SK, it's absolutely useless if you don't.

[Particle_Man]

What? You don't need a +1 bab to get the power attack feat. Just Strength 13.

And Rogues can Power Attack just fine. Just be strength based and use a Morningstar or something. Sure, you can't use the feat at level 1.

That was actually my point. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.


**Though the painful truth of 3.5 is that one needs magic 9/10 times as it replaces any class feature/skill/everything you get from other places. I do agree, that the game should be played at T3 and only at T3. Or at least in ONE tier in camaign so everyone feels adequate***


We never asked what tier the OP's party is in. Perhaps it is the exact Tier of Soulknives, and all this other advice will make his character too powerful with respect to the other PCs, and they would then "feel inadequate".

zigato, what is everyone else playing?

[Qwertystop]

I've heard that one good Soulknife fix is to gestalt it with Soulborn. Two bad classes that together come out acceptable.

Can anyone else confirm this? I can't remember the source.

[eggs]

I mean let's put it this way, if you were a multi-class SK with 5 levels in SK and 5 levels in Swordsage you'd be a 10th level character with a +1 weapon. A +1 weapon... at character level 10. You can easily get a +3 or +4 weapon by then. I mean the 3.5 mind blade is inferior to a magic weapon if you go pure SK, it's absolutely useless if you don't.
Soulknife is absolutely useless. But if it's going to be used, it might as well be used for dead filler levels in a strong build, rather than dead levels that make up a character's entirety.

[sonofzeal]

Can anyone else confirm this? I can't remember the source.
It's been bandied around a lot, but I don't think there's any official "source". There's also debate about just how much it fixes anything. Still, it's certainly an improvement, even if only a marginal one. Probably T4.

[Red_Dog]

Can anyone else confirm this? I can't remember the source.

I would think that a Gestalting anything with anything is an improvement when the rest of the PCs/NPCs are not allowed to Gestalt. I mean if to Gestalt with anything, its with fighter. You won't jump to T3, but get to T4 at LEAST. That is if no one else is allowed to Gestalt
**Yes. "To Gestalt" is a verb now = P I am jesting of course, I am to lazy to google if its actually a verb = P, but it is now! ^^**

=============================================>
More to the point, after burning another 2 hours in the books I think the following dip fixes quite a few issues=>

1 SwordSage[even without Adaptive style] & 1 Human Paragon. Also perhaps one level of hit'n'run Fighter from Drows of the Underdarkhighly discouraged btw = ] ] for Dex to dmg vs flat-footed foes[that's double Dex to dmg after shadow blade], free +2I and bonus feat to make up the fact that you will burn a feat for weapon finesse.

You are still mostly soulknife, but now you can be in Child of Shadows stance[pretty much permanently, hell you'll probably go to sleep in it^^], take Shadow blade and gain Iaijutsu Focus permanently on the skill list.

Basically you would be able to mostly focus on your Dex and Con. With a free draw only post-pounded 2 or so levels, you will have enough ranks in Iaijutsu Focus to matter. BAB loss won't hurt you too much as you would focus on making burst damage with Iaijutsu Focus. This opens up a possibility for Mind cleaving feats to recharge your phychic strike, although I'd still advise bonus feats over it.

This is again, as eggs said, making the best out of the situation. Anyone can take this dip and be kewl, but only you will have a glowing blade ^^

P.S. as per handbook I linked, its highly recommended that you would be Kalashtar[from Ebberon. I never played with them but read on] who get bonus power points per level. This makes use of your Hidden Talent and lets you use Dimension Hop a LOT more than 2/day.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It's been bandied around a lot, but I don't think there's any official "source". There's also debate about just how much it fixes anything. Still, it's certainly an improvement, even if only a marginal one. Probably T4.

Page 6 of a rest Incarnum thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236024&page=5) That tangent grows somewhat in the 6th page with people debating that having two sucky classes together doesn't really help. You have more options, but they're all still bad when compared to just, say a Psychic Warrior or even Totemist. As I'm only loosely aware of how Soulborns function compared to the other two Incarnum-based classes, I can't offer a solid opinion one way or the other.

Person Man does offer up his lovely homebrew, though, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) on such a combination.

[eggs]

Can anyone else confirm this? I can't remember the source.
What do you want to be confirmed? Just look at the results:
Strong Framework, weak skill list, various numeric boosts, no powerful magic/supernatural effects, a handful of unspecified bonus feats.

Conceptually, it doesn't make any sense at all, but it looks a lot like the Barbarian if Spirit Lion Totem isn't on the board.

It's still really weak and basically reliant on other characters/outside wealth to deal with level-appropriate obstacles like flight, battlefield control, magical defenses and various save-or-lose effects, but at least the numeric boosts would allow it to deal with monsters numerically.

[MeeposFire]

soulbow is a decent option since it adds BAB (look at the class feature that gives enchanted arrows), range, and reduces MAD. Using arrows also allows the use of manyshot which makes you less dependant on full attack actions (which is a major boon that people often do not think about).

You also want to take the alternate class features such as bonus feats instead of psychic strike (particularly since as a soulbow you don't get that many dice) and the hidden talent instead of wild talent feat. If you are lucky you might be able to convince your DM to give you additional hidden talent feats for free as bonus feats (the alternate class feature allows you to take hidden talent more than once). You can use that for utility and the like.

[Rejusu]

Soulknife is absolutely useless. But if it's going to be used, it might as well be used for dead filler levels in a strong build, rather than dead levels that make up a character's entirety.

Oh yeah I agree completely, it's pretty much irredeemable aside from the two level dip needed for Soulbow. But really best to avoid it completely if you can. From the sounds of things the OP is still genning his character so he's still got a chance to fix things.



=============================================>
More to the point, after burning another 2 hours in the books I think the following dip fixes quite a few issues=>

1 SwordSage[even without Adaptive style] & 1 Human Paragon. Also perhaps one level of hit'n'run Fighter from Drows of the Underdarkhighly discouraged btw = ] ] for Dex to dmg vs flat-footed foes[that's double Dex to dmg after shadow blade], free +2I and bonus feat to make up the fact that you will burn a feat for weapon finesse.

You are still mostly soulknife, but now you can be in Child of Shadows stance[pretty much permanently, hell you'll probably go to sleep in it^^], take Shadow blade and gain Iaijutsu Focus permanently on the skill list.


If I found myself stuck with a few levels of Soulknife (and I didn't plan on going soulbow) I wouldn't just dip, I'd leave the class entirely. Dipping would just make things worse because as I mentioned the mindblade is already inferior to a regular magic weapon of the same level, multiclassing just widens that gap even further and makes it pointless.

I'm not even sure gestalting is enough to redeem the 3.5 soulknife because even when mixed in with another class all you're getting out of it is a worse weapon than what you could buy with your WBL. I question what the designers were thinking when they cooked up the 3.5 Soulknife. It's primary class feature can be replaced by fairly standard loot. It's a class whose only purpose is melee combat and yet it doesn't have full BAB and can only wear light armour. On top of that it can't even skirmish well because it's move actions are tied up in charging psychic strike.

The Pathfinder Soulknife is a vast improvement by comparison. It has actual class features that (while not outstanding) are pretty decent, it allows you to pick a fighting style at first level (e.g. TWF or 2-handed), you can pre-configure your mind blade so you don't have to do it in combat and you're not limited to a slashing weapon. It's actually a respectable class that looks as if it could pull it's weight and be fun to play. Rather than a nice but terribly executed concept that becomes a chore when you get over the novelty of having a lightsaber.

[sonofzeal]

I'm not even sure gestalting is enough to redeem the 3.5 soulknife because even when mixed in with another class all you're getting out of it is a worse weapon than what you could buy with your WBL. I question what the designers were thinking when they cooked up the 3.5 Soulknife. It's primary class feature can be replaced by fairly standard loot.
In the Incarnum thread, someone did the calculations and found that, actually, for most of its career the Soulknife's weapon would be worth more than what a normal character could feasibly afford to buy.

That doesn't make the class good, by any means. There's still some critical flaws. Gestalting with Soulborn fixes at least one (namely the BAB), and gives a few more things to actually do with the free weapon that's 90% of your class features. It's certainly not good, but easily manages low T4.

[Particle_Man]

Oh, another fun thing: You could snap up all those feats that require you to maintain your psionic focus and none of the feats that require you to expend it. Then you can leave it on all day and use speed of thought, psionic dodge (if you are going for spring attack anyhow you will already have the dodge prerequisite feat), ghost attack and up the walls. That and exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword would give you your feats for your pre-epic career, and you could add Cloak Dance for defense if you are a human soul knife. And all of those feats are in the SRD (or PHB and XPH if you don't know about the SRD yet)!

Kinda reminds me of the 1st edition thief. You position yourself for a backstab, run off, wait, look for a second opportunity, if things get too hot, run away again, come back in an hour, try again, etc.

Your mind blade doesn't have charges or spell points after all, might as well make the most of that advantage.

Anyhow, is your DM running a Tier 5 campaign? Are you campaigning with knights, fighters, soulborns, ninja and the like?

[eggs]

Oh, another fun thing: You could snap up all those feats that require you to maintain your psionic focus and none of the feats that require you to expend it. Then you can leave it on all day and use speed of thought, psionic dodge (if you are going for spring attack anyhow you will already have the dodge prerequisite feat), ghost attack and up the walls. That and exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword would give you your feats for your pre-epic career, and you could add Cloak Dance for defense if you are a human soul knife. And all of those feats are in the SRD (or PHB and XPH if you don't know about the SRD yet)!
You say that like that build would live to see epic (or ECL 6, for that matter). :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

It all depends on the DM and the campaign. We still don't know what the fellow players are and whether the DM will optimize the monsters/opponents or not.

For all we know the DM's world could be a world of only humanoids, animals and vermin with only Tier 5/6 classes for PC and NPC alike.

[Bovine Colonel]

Might your DM perhaps allow the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife)? It's generally considered to be Tier 4, so while you won't be amazing you won't suck either.

[eggs]

I think you're forgetting just how nasty those animal and vermin are compared to a level-appropriate Soulknife.

Fighters have a hard time with level appropriate animals, and that's with reach weapons, higher attack bonuses, better armor and bonus feats to throw around.

Seriously, run some simulations of level 3 Soulknives fighting Lions, Dire Apes, Large Scorpions or the other generic monsters you'd expect a level 3 Soulknife to fight.

I'm not saying that Soulknife is crummy because it's not a full spellcaster or because it can't stand against inappropriately leveled challenges or anything along those lines. I'm saying that the Soulknife is crummy because, without serious optimization, when the Soulknfe gets in the fights it's supposed to (even the easy ones) it just dies.

[Lateral]

In the Incarnum thread, someone did the calculations and found that, actually, for most of its career the Soulknife's weapon would be worth more than what a normal character could feasibly afford to buy.

True, but its weapon is still probably not as good considering that you're limited to a maximum of +4 special abilities from an extremely limited list.

[sonofzeal]

True, but its weapon is still probably not as good considering that you're limited to a maximum of +4 special abilities from an extremely limited list.
Well, yes. The class is bad. It's just not as objectively terrible as some people argue. But really, all it needs are somewhat higher numbers (full BAB, some additional source of damage), and a couple utility tricks, to become a viable class. And I think Soulborn covers that. We're still taking T4, but T4 is functional and playable.

OTOH, I've never understood why those two in particular. Why not... oh, Soulknife and Ninja? Those two fit together thematically more for me, but that may be a result of every Soulknife I've played with basically going as a ninja already.

[Particle_Man]

I'm saying that the Soulknife is crummy because, without serious optimization, when the Soulknfe gets in the fights it's supposed to (even the easy ones) it just dies.

But then the OP's problem is pretty much solved, and he can make a new character without regret. Or, the DM will do something to make the world different enough that the SK doesn't just die, whatever that may be.

[Red_Dog]

Fighters have a hard time with level appropriate animals, and that's with reach weapons, higher attack bonuses, better armor and bonus feats to throw around.

Seriously, run some simulations of level 3 Soulknives fighting Lions, Dire Apes, Large Scorpions or the other generic monsters you'd expect a level 3 Soulknife to fight.

TBH eggs, I'll have to disagree with you here. I was never a big fan of CR system period, and neither was I fan of it when selecting feats for a Fighter suddenly meant "high optimization". Reading parts of a Complete Warrior and possibly PHBII is NOT high level of optimization. Not taking toughness is AGAIN not high level optimization.

Now with that In mind, a party of say 3-4 soulknives of lvl3 can take a CR3 creature no problem. As far as I understand, CR3 means a party of lvl3 characters. With a burst set up[psychic weapon], and some armor feats, even without any tricky mobility, trapping and etc, soulknives come out winners.

The issue is in fact comes up when you start hitting ECL10... Because, unlike Fighter's stuff[fullBAB=semi adequate dmg right of the bat], yours just doesn't scale anywhere NEARLY quickly enough. If the campaign is over by lvl6-8 ish? A soulknife (while risking his life all the time for the party) can get by. If not... one must really get creative with that skill list...

P.S. By the by, another interesting soulknife concept that run thru my mind was duel wielding soulknife with a single normal weapon. Obviously I won't give any details, as it will take me 30+min to flesh this out, but essentially taking Soulknives blade progression as "a Commoner w/ few bonus feats, MINOR psionics & increased WBL" and building one like that. However, in this set up, I don't even know where to begin haha ^^

[Rejusu]

Now with that In mind, a party of say 3-4 soulknives of lvl3 can take a CR3 creature no problem. As far as I understand, CR3 means a party of lvl3 characters. With a burst set up[psychic weapon], and some armor feats, even without any tricky mobility, trapping and etc, soulknives come out winners.

Because I'm very bored I decided to run a quick simulation to test this out. Now keep in mind this is a very crude simulation because adding all the complicated stuff in would have taken me way too long. Basically it models three identical soulknives vs a CR3 creature (Dire Ape).

Each SK is as follows:
Human Soulknife 3
28-pt buy
16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Wis (prereq for psi med), 9 Int, 8 Cha
Feats:
Psionic Weapon
Psionic Meditation
Power Attack
Max HP at first followed by average HP for total HP of 26 (12 + 7 + 7).
Equipment is a +1 chain shirt making for an AC of 17 (10 +4 (CS) +1 (enhancement bonus) +2 (Dex))

The simulation makes the following simplifications:
- Flat-footed in the first round is ignored.
- The Dire Ape always goes first.
- Flanking is ignored.
- The Soulknives start adjacent to the Dire Ape with mind blades drawn and ready and with both psionic focus and a charged psychic strike.

In addition each character employs no special tactics, the Soulknives on each turn use both their psionic weapon and psychic strike for their attack if they are available. The Soulknives will always prioritise using their move action to charge focus for psionic weapon over psychic strike. They always power attack at max BAB and wield their mind blade two-handed. The Dire Ape will full attack the same character each round until their hitpoints are reduced to zero before switching targets.

It's a very crude simulation and the SK's aren't that well optimised but I think it's enough to get an idea of what the fight would be like. Over the course of a 1000 encounters the Dire Ape TPK'd the party 76 times and in the 924 encounters the SK's were victorious a total of 595 (out of 2772) Soulknives were killed in the process.

It's a little difficult to make judgements from these numbers without comparison data. But despite the Dire Ape going first I actually think the Soulknives are placed in a more advantageous position by the simulation simplifications. After all the SK's are fighting to their full potential (they can always use their move actions to power up their attack) where as the Dire Ape isn't as it isn't taking advantage of it's reach, or it's ability to grapple.

Although I did forget to add 1.5 times strength on the SK's melee damage roles for wielding two handed (I did remember to double the power attack bonus though) it doesn't make much difference as it'd only result in 1 damage more per attack.

Sample SK victory combat log:
Start Encounter #997
Dire Ape is currently targeting Dave
Start of Dire Ape's turn
Dipe Ape full attacks Soulknife Dave!
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 12 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 11 damage
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 15 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 7 damage
Both claw attacks hit! Adding rend damage of 12!
Dire Ape makes a bite attack! Attack roll of 1 + 3
Dire Apes bite missed the targets AC of 17!
Dire Ape deals total damage of 30 to Soulknife Dave
End of Dire Ape's turn
Start of Soulknife Dave's turn
Soulknife Dave is helpless! Wounds: 30 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Dave's turn
Start of Soulknife Steve's turn
Soulknife Steve uses their standard action to attack with a roll of 12 + 4
Attack hit!
Soulknife Steve rolls base damage of 12
Soulknife Steve expends psionic focus for psionic weapon and rolls damage: 5
Soulknife Steve expends psionic strike rolls damage: 1
Soulknife Steve deals total damage of 18
End of Soulknife Steve's turn
Start of Soulknife Bob's turn
Soulknife Bob uses their standard action to attack with a roll of 12 + 4
Attack hit!
Soulknife Bob rolls base damage of 12
Soulknife Bob expends psionic focus for psionic weapon and rolls damage: 5
Soulknife Bob expends psionic strike rolls damage: 1
Soulknife Bob deals total damage of 18
End of Soulknife Bob's turn
Dire Ape is defeated! Remaining party HP - Dave : -4, Steve : 26, Bob : 26
End Encounter #997

Sample Dire Ape victory combat log:
Start Encounter #994
Dire Ape is currently targeting Dave
Start of Dire Ape's turn
Dipe Ape full attacks Soulknife Dave!
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 9 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 11 damage
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 17 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 7 damage
Both claw attacks hit! Adding rend damage of 19!
Dire Ape makes a bite attack! Attack roll of 6 + 3
Dire Apes bite missed the targets AC of 17!
Dire Ape deals total damage of 37 to Soulknife Dave
End of Dire Ape's turn
Start of Soulknife Dave's turn
Soulknife Dave is helpless! Wounds: 37 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Dave's turn
Start of Soulknife Steve's turn
Soulknife Steve uses their standard action to attack with a roll of 9 + 4
Soulknife Steve's missed the targets AC of 15!
End of Soulknife Steve's turn
Start of Soulknife Bob's turn
Soulknife Bob uses their standard action to attack with a roll of 9 + 4
Soulknife Bob's missed the targets AC of 15!
End of Soulknife Bob's turn
Dave has fallen, Dire Ape switches target to Steve
Dire Ape is currently targeting Steve
Start of Dire Ape's turn
Dipe Ape full attacks Soulknife Steve!
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 10 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 9 damage
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 14 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 10 damage
Both claw attacks hit! Adding rend damage of 17!
Dire Ape makes a bite attack! Attack roll of 6 + 3
Dire Apes bite missed the targets AC of 17!
Dire Ape deals total damage of 36 to Soulknife Steve
End of Dire Ape's turn
Start of Soulknife Dave's turn
Soulknife Dave is helpless! Wounds: 37 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Dave's turn
Start of Soulknife Steve's turn
Soulknife Steve is helpless! Wounds: 36 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Steve's turn
Start of Soulknife Bob's turn
Soulknife Bob uses their move action to gain psionic focus
Soulknife Bob uses their standard action to attack with a roll of 16 + 4
Attack hit!
Soulknife Bob rolls base damage of 12
Soulknife Bob expends psionic focus for psionic weapon and rolls damage: 6
Soulknife Bob expends psionic strike rolls damage: 7
Soulknife Bob deals total damage of 25
End of Soulknife Bob's turn
Steve has fallen, Dire Ape switches target to Bob
Dire Ape is currently targeting Bob
Start of Dire Ape's turn
Dipe Ape full attacks Soulknife Bob!
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 12 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 8 damage
Dire Ape makes a claw attack! Attack roll of 9 + 8
Attack hit!
Dire Apes claw deals 8 damage
Both claw attacks hit! Adding rend damage of 15!
Dire Ape makes a bite attack! Attack roll of 12 + 3
Dire Apes bite missed the targets AC of 17!
Dire Ape deals total damage of 31 to Soulknife Bob
End of Dire Ape's turn
Start of Soulknife Dave's turn
Soulknife Dave is helpless! Wounds: 37 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Dave's turn
Start of Soulknife Steve's turn
Soulknife Steve is helpless! Wounds: 36 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Steve's turn
Start of Soulknife Bob's turn
Soulknife Bob is helpless! Wounds: 31 HP: 26
End of Soulknife Bob's turn
Bob has fallen, total party kill. Dire Ape is victorious with 10 HP remaining!
End Encounter #994

[zigato]

the group i am with so far are a healer, wizard/ranger, dragon shaman, and a rouge/swash buckler. so far i found a few items that let my soul knife stay on par with a normal magic weapon even surpass it whitch are crystal hilts from the mind uveiled

[Particle_Man]

So Healer and Swashbuckler are tier 5 (with the Soul Knife), Rogue and Ranger are Tier 4, Dragon Shaman is, what, Tier 3/4? Wizard can be the crazy powerful Tier 1, but that goes down the more ranger levels are in the mix. The Rogue/Swashbuckler combo might bump it up a tier or might not.

I think you will be ok (remember that the aura of the DS can be your friend!). Nice that you can combine the crystal hilts with your mind blade.

Sounds like you may have a hit and run stealth party? Does your group have a set of tactics that they tend to use?

[zigato]

the ranger/wizards is going for arcane archer. so the party will probly be hit and run style me and the rouge are goignto be the front for the group

[Gavinfoxx]

Gyah, ROGUE. Not Rouge. ROGUE.

Your friend does know that the 'best' parts of Arcane Archer doesn't stack with the spell Greater Magic Weapon, and a bag of +1 spell-storing arrows and a bow with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it obsoletes most of the class?

[Particle_Man]

I think we shouldn't worry about "build advice" and instead should focus on "tactical advice".

When you engage in hit-and-run tactics, does your party have an "order of retreat" (like, get the healer out of there first, know what direction to flee or what camp to flee too, find ways to harry pursuers if they are so inclined, etc.). Smokesticks and tanglefoot bags might be useful there.

Are you in a position to find out about your opponents ahead of time (their patrol schedules, their weaknesses (if they are monsters), possible allies you could get on your side, etc.)? Even the terrain upon which you expect to fight will be useful to know sometimes, not only for its type (which might affect movement) but also to know good escape routes ahead of time, should the need arise.

If a party member falls, can another member carry him (or get him onto a horse) or is your policy to leave the fallen behind?

Do you have objections to unsavory tactics, like poisoning their food supplies, or are you a "good guy" party (nothing wrong with that, it will just colour the type of advice you get).

Is your group part of a larger group that you can rely upon for supplies, information, a place to rest up and heal safely, etc.?

Do you have horses? Are they trained to fight? Do you have other animals that can be used to fight or signal or otherwise be useful?

What is your character's (and party's) backstory?

[MeeposFire]

So Healer and Swashbuckler are tier 5 (with the Soul Knife), Rogue and Ranger are Tier 4, Dragon Shaman is, what, Tier 3/4? Wizard can be the crazy powerful Tier 1, but that goes down the more ranger levels are in the mix. The Rogue/Swashbuckler combo might bump it up a tier or might not.

I think you will be ok (remember that the aura of the DS can be your friend!). Nice that you can combine the crystal hilts with your mind blade.

Sounds like you may have a hit and run stealth party? Does your group have a set of tactics that they tend to use?

I think Dragon shaman would be lucky to make tier 4. I just don't see them having enough options and their "trick" is subsumed by a couple of feats and being dragonborn.

[Red_Dog]

I think Dragon shaman would be lucky to make tier 4. I just don't see them having enough options and their "trick" is subsumed by a couple of feats and being dragonborn.

Just for the record, I would not put Shamans in T4. Without Double Barrel Breath and Tactical-Nuking feat sink thru Dragonamicon they are absolutely horrible. No fullBAB, no Skills[Fighter's Halloween costume is NOT an acceptable skill list] and no abilities make for a sad sad class. They might be better than soulknife, but I would play a Paladin over Shaman. At least paladin has support and few ways to push him/herself into high T4.

If anyone is interested=> Dragon Shaman that is also dragon blooded and has natural Breath can use Energy Admixture, Hightened Breath, and Maximize Breath to spit out double the breath damage and as far as I know all maximized with save fully boosted up to maximum Con Mod. Then in following rounds use natural breath from the race/template to breath with entangling exhalation and control the battlefield. This way, maybe you are T4.***This still doesn't come close to Five Fold Tactical Nuke of Tiamat, and that one you can do every other[or every 3?] round and still do other stuff with invocations and etc.***

P.S. On topic, the party is weak, but consistent, as far as I can see. Soulknife won't be TOO far behind. I would go for Psychic Weapon Line for add burst damage. If Mind Unveiled is allowed, than you will be just fine with free draw-psychic strike recharge every turn, it needs few feats, but you'll be fine ^^. Mind Unveiled does fixes Soulknife and bumps him to T4 no problem.

[eggs]

TBH eggs, I'll have to disagree with you here. I was never a big fan of CR system period, and neither was I fan of it when selecting feats for a Fighter suddenly meant "high optimization". Reading parts of a Complete Warrior and possibly PHBII is NOT high level of optimization. Not taking toughness is AGAIN not high level optimization.

Now with that In mind, a party of say 3-4 soulknives of lvl3 can take a CR3 creature no problem. As far as I understand, CR3 means a party of lvl3 characters. With a burst set up[psychic weapon], and some armor feats, even without any tricky mobility, trapping and etc, soulknives come out winners.
I meant looking at whether the Soulknife, as a CR3 creature, could handle another CR3 creature individually about half the time. Per the DMG, encounters that could lead to that kind of pairing are supposed to make up ~1/5 of a party's fights.

Dire Apes and Lions will both take ~2 rounds to wear through the Soulknife's HP, and even a 22 strength Orc Soulknife charging its mind blade each round will take ~4 rounds to wear through theirs.

I suppose if the DM strictly sets CRs at or below party level, as well as choosing tactically simple monsters, the situation would change, but I do not think that is a reasonable assumption.

A Soulknife can certainly do better than that by dumpster-diving splatbooks to find things like Azure Talent+Psycarnum Infusion+Hidden Talent ACF+Dimension Hop and neglects the Mind Blade in favor of a longspear, or something along those lines. But this is much more involved than just selecting feats for a Fighter, and often goes as far as contradicting the concept of the class.

But if the OP is using DSP materials, the Soulknife gets a lot better. Be sure to check out DSP's 3.5 soulknife fix (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/soulknife). It gets more skills, a better Mind Blade mechanic and its pick of psionic bonus feats.

[Red_Dog]

A Soulknife can certainly do better than that by dumpster-diving splatbooks

This made me laugh for a solid minute ^^ Thank you ^^

A new Soulknife slogan!=> dumpster-diving splatbooks FTW! ^^

That aside, I am not sure how to even use Incarnum here. The blasted Psycarnum Blade that does scale with ECL, needs expending psychic focus which places it right next to psychic weapon. And Psychich weapon scales faster. Did you have some kind of combo in mind that I missed?O_o

Ebberon Race that gains pp with ECL combined with Dimension Hop is pretty neat still ^^

P.S. Also generally speaking PCs are not evaluated on CR bases for a reason. However that's not to say that some PCs [que wizards and etc.] will be far superior than a CR analog, some will done fine and some will be in trouble.

[Capt Spaulding]

I had alot of fun with a halfgiant soulknife that did heinous damage at mid level. The key was to get a psionic shirt that let me boost my size catagory (that's 2 size categories higher weapon with half-giant + the Str bonus increase, 3 if I put a few meager powerpoints into it). Of course, we didn't do dungeon crawls, so size wasn't an issue. Towards the end of the campaign, I had found a way to get to gargantuan size (w/ colossal weapon), but then the it ended.

Also, I had a custom cure light wounds ear ring that was at will that made our cleric mad because I "stole" his role (he only played his cleric as a heal bot). Of course, maybe I made it work so well because my group was full of putz's who couldn't play their characters half way correctly if they had a gun to their head. Meh, who cares, it was still fun.

[eggs]

That aside, I am not sure how to even use Incarnum here. The blasted Psycarnum Blade that does scale with ECL, needs expending psychic focus which places it right next to psychic weapon. And Psychich weapon scales faster. Did you have some kind of combo in mind that I missed?O_o
The one I was thinking of was Azure Talent+Psycarnum Infusion to expend psionic focus for a couple temporary PP. It's nothing earth-shattering, but with Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop) it adds enough tactically that I think it's worth the feat investment.

Probably not worth it on a Kalashtar though. Like you said, that race is awesome.

[Godskook]

In the Incarnum thread, someone did the calculations and found that, actually, for most of its career the Soulknife's weapon would be worth more than what a normal character could feasibly afford to buy.

Depends on optimization and in-game earnings, but for even what I consider 'basic' optimization, I highly doubt that this is true after the first point or two.

....Checking......

Well, its barely true at level 6(SK has their +2 weapon, while someone else 'could' afford one but probably wouldn't be allowed by their GM unless there's a party artificer). By level 10, its far more reasonable to expect +3 weapons out of a party's primary attackers and explicitly so from a party with a crafter. At level 14, its just blatantly wrong and by level 18, if you're not 2-3 +s ahead, you're doing it wrong.

And that's without an CL boosters to make the enhancements bigger for the non-SK(which we could apply to the SK but 1-upping his class features is hardly a case for his class features being relevant).

Also, with strict WBL and one of a party crafter and/or Ancestral Relic, a SK stops being ahead at level 7(1 level after he 'got' ahead). From there, he starts falling behind quite rapidly.

*Basic optimization is having a party spellcaster with GMW on hand every day and then only grabbing a +1 enhancement and getting everything else as a special ability.

[Darth Stabber]

In my own campaign I allow players to gestalt 2 from the following list if they intend on following them through (not dipping) for a while.

Soulknife
Soulborn
Knight
Samurai (CA version)
Ninja (Either version)
Monk
Healer
Expert
Adept
Warrior

works out fairly well, they still usually end up at just the high end of tier 5, but some intelligent build and play choices make them keep up with my mostly tier3 group.

[sonofzeal]

*Basic optimization is having a party spellcaster with GMW on hand every day and then only grabbing a +1 enhancement and getting everything else as a special ability.
I don't consider GMWing everything in sight to be a default practice, given that I've never once been in a campaign of any level where that's happened.

Most games I play are in the lvl 3-9 range. In 3-6, GMW is not available. At 7 it is, but only gives a +1, and you need a +1 to get any special properties on your weapon anyway, so no saving there. At 8 and 9 it gives a +2, which is at least something, but 4th level spell slots are rare in those levels and generally go towards more important things like Divine Power and Freedom of Movement and Divination and Air Walk. If the Cleric has enough spell slots to be tossing GMW on more than a single weapon (likely his own), then you're doing something very odd.

And that's if your party has a Cleric. Which shouldn't be assume.



Seriously, why does everyone base any analysis on optimal best-case assumptions that only hold true at high levels and often not even then?!?

[Darth Stabber]

Seriously, why does everyone base any analysis on optimal best-case assumptions that only hold true at high levels and often not even then?!?

A) even without GMW weapon abilities are still better than +1 to hit and damage 99%of the time.
B) if you are playing in a group of optimizers, they will likely actually play by optimizer assumptions.
C) optimization is based off a standard of playing OPTIMALLY.
D) GMW is on several spell lists, not just clerics.

[sonofzeal]

A) even without GMW weapon abilities are still better than +1 to hit and damage 99%of the time.
B) if you are playing in a group of optimizers, they will likely actually play by optimizer assumptions.
C) optimization is based off a standard of playing OPTIMALLY.
D) GMW is on several spell lists, not just clerics.
A) I'm not disputing, but it's relevant to the calculations. The original claim was that the Soulknife's "primary class feature can be replaced by fairly standard loot", with comments implying that the gp value was well under WBL... which it isn't unless you're GMWing.

B/C) My point is those assumptions are often flawed. Seriously flawed, in several cases, depending on the level of the campaign. And general comments about the worth of a class shouldn't depend on having friendly allies around to buff everyone. I mean, when we talk about Fighters getting buffed with Overland Flight, that's not part of the class... but when we're comparing Soulknives to other martial classes then suddenly everyone and their nephew has GWM 24/7? What?

D) Same thing still applies. Up to lvl 7, it's unavailable or redundant. In lvl 8-11, it's a poor use of resources. And conventional wisdom is that most games are played before lvl 12.

[Rejusu]

Dire Apes and Lions will both take ~2 rounds to wear through the Soulknife's HP, and even a 22 strength Orc Soulknife charging its mind blade each round will take ~4 rounds to wear through theirs.

Actually if you look at the results of my simulation in the sample log of where the three soulknives win then it actually ends in a single round and only two of them end up attacking (the third SK is wiped out on the Dire Apes turn). But that's 3v1. I think 1v1 the SK would lose a lot more, thanks to it's rend the Dire Ape is more than capable of wiping out one SK with a single full attack.

[Godskook]

Zeal, you said "for most of its career", which to me means ~11 levels or more. In your rebuttal, you give 3-9 as the level range, but let's round that up to 1-9, which is *still* not 'most'. Its also the most irrelevant level range available when actually trying to compare SK to WBL weapons. SK gets 1 special ability and enhancements at the same rate as GMW(2). You've gained nothing interesting yet. I kinda assumed you'd be talking about the 6-18 range or something like that, that included more than one step.

To go through the early game real quick:
At level 1, everybody's got basic weapons.
At level 2, SK is the only one stuck without MWK
At level 4, SK gets a +1, putting him 1 damage ahead(from being 1 to-hit behind for 2 levels)
At level 5, everybody can afford +1 weapons, so even(WBL without restrictions would've allowed the last level.
At level 6, SKs get their +1 ability for a +2 weapon. (Without restrictions, everyone could afford this too)
At level 8, SK get a +2 enhancement, putting them strictly ahead of people without GMW.
Just before level 9, people start finally picking up effective +2 weapons.

If you assume WBL with 1/4 max cost and no GMW or crafting, then SK is 'ahead' enough to be worth mentioning at level 6, and holds that position for quite some time to come. However, I think that a lack of GMW and crafting is a bad assumption set, since both are strategies that were good in core and SK means non-core. With just GMW, SK is only ahead for a level or 2 at a time, before WBL catches back up(indicating that fluctuations in real game WBL might result in a party catching up sooner). With both, SK is just laughed into the ground.

Why are you assuming a cleric for GMW? Its a level 3 spell on the wizard list, making it a secondary slot by level 8 when it starts being useful.