The Unskilled Skill Monkey

[kulosle]

So I'm trying to make a character that has really high skills without putting ranks into them. What I've thought of so far is factotum 3/marshal 1/Bard 16 with bardic knack. Marshal is to add my charisma to all my wisdom skills. Nymphs kiss gives a bonus to all charisma based skills and factotum adds to all dex and str based skills. So all my skills are getting a big boost, but what else can go on top of this. The only item I've found is circlet of persuasion witch is a +3 competence bonus to all cha based skills. Besides trying to get my attributes higher what else stacks with bardic knack?

[Dimers]

So I'm trying to make a character that has really high skills without putting ranks into them. What I've thought of so far is factotum 3/marshal 1/Bard 16 with bardic knack. Marshal is to add my charisma to all my wisdom skills. Nymphs kiss gives a bonus to all charisma based skills and factotum adds to all dex and str based skills. So all my skills are getting a big boost, but what else can go on top of this. The only item I've found is circlet of persuasion witch is a +3 competence bonus to all cha based skills. Besides trying to get my attributes higher what else stacks with bardic knack?

I don't know how well this advice would work, because I don't know what bonus types are granted by bardic knack, marshall or factotum, buuuut ... You could try for a wand of divine insight (+5+CL insight bonus to any one skill roll), as well as wands of all the first-level spells that give +10 competence to whatever skill, like towering oak and surefoot.

[Kaje]

Incarnate has a bunch of skill-monkey soulmelds.

[absolmorph]

I don't know how well this advice would work, because I don't know what bonus types are granted by bardic knack, marshall or factotum, buuuut ... You could try for a wand of divine insight (+5+CL insight bonus to any one skill roll), as well as wands of all the first-level spells that give +10 competence to whatever skill, like towering oak and surefoot.
Bardic knack replaces your 0 ranks with 1/2 your bard level (rounded up).
Marshal provides a circumstance bonus.
Factotum adds your Int (doesn't name a type of bonus).
So, insight and competence bonuses will help.

[ScrambledBrains]

In the 2nd Player's handbook, there's a feat called Jack of all Trades. Combining it's effect with Bardic Knack allows you to use all skills as if you had a number of ranks equal to half your Bard level. :smallsmile:

[kulosle]

Factotums bonus is untyped, Marshals is circumstance bonus, and bardic knacks isn't a bonus it's virtual ranks that don't stack with other ranks. Nymphs kiss is also a +2 circumstance bonus to cha based skills.

I'd like to avoid changing levels unless it would give me an equal bonus to my skills. Which each level is currently giving me a lot. I can at the moment give up one level of bard because bardic knack is half your level rounded up. I'll still look into incarnate.

I also plan on doing bloodline shenanigans so I'll get an extra 2 from bardic knack

Aren't there like 2 feats that add a bonus to all knowledge skills? Knowledge are skills i need to get up as high as i can for knowledge devotion. I know about collector of stories for +5. Bardic knack gives +10, lets say +8 from int. That's 23, 36 is the highest I need so a little bit more would be nice. Which those feats should cover but I can't remember them.

[dextercorvia]

Illumian (RoD) sigils give bonuses on various skill checks, Naenhoon will net you a +2 to Wis, Con and Int based checks.

The knowledge mantle (CP) lets you make Knowledge checks untrained.

Binding Naberius (ToM) will let you make a number of skill checks untrained as well. Edit: You can get this from the feat actually.

[Rubik]

What about factotum 3/marshal 3, and get Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence? That way you add Int to all your Str and Dex skills (Hint: Dex powers almost everything), and double-Cha to your Str, Dex, and Int skills? After all, factotum 3 lets you add +Int to everything, and Motivate Int adds +Cha to your +Int skills. Once Cha is added to Int, Motivate Cha to add DOUBLE Cha to everything. Isn't there a double-aura feat?

Bardic Knack to get half ranks in everything, and then focus your skill points on the Wis and Con skills.

The Versatile Performer feat lets you treat all Perform skills as having the ranks of the highest (so put skill points in one Perform skill and they all have that number of skill ranks in them).

[Zombimode]

What about factotum 3/marshal 3, and get Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence? That way you add Int to all your Str and Dex skills (Hint: Dex powers almost everything), and double-Cha to your Str, Dex, and Int skills? After all, factotum 3 lets you add +Int to everything, and Motivate Int adds +Cha to your +Int skills. Once Cha is added to Int, Motivate Cha to add DOUBLE Cha to everything. Isn't there a double-aura feat?

Uhm, no, I'm pretty sure this is not how it works.

Factotum 3 gives an untyped bonus on all Dex and Str checks equal to your Int-mod.
Motivate X gives a circumstance bonus on all X-skill checks equal to your Cha-mod.

There is no connection between those two abilities.

[Godskook]

Tactile Trapsmith makes all your trapmonkey skills dex-based. This then allows you to re-add your Int to those checks with Factotum.

I'd take 6 more levels of marshal so that you can add Charisma to Int, Cha, and Dex based skills too. Bardic Knack loses a +3 from that, but you gain Cha, and on this build, your Cha should be high enough to be worth it. This also makes you a better supporter of a 'real' skillmonkey should the party ever get one, as well as anyone who's class is skill reliant(Artificer!). (Str isn't worth it since most Str-based skills are made useless by simple magic items)

[dextercorvia]

What about factotum 3/marshal 3, and get Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence? That way you add Int to all your Str and Dex skills (Hint: Dex powers almost everything), and double-Cha to your Str, Dex, and Int skills? After all, factotum 3 lets you add +Int to everything, and Motivate Int adds +Cha to your +Int skills. Once Cha is added to Int, Motivate Cha to add DOUBLE Cha to everything. Isn't there a double-aura feat?

Bardic Knack to get half ranks in everything, and then focus your skill points on the Wis and Con skills.

The Versatile Performer feat lets you treat all Perform skills as having the ranks of the highest (so put skill points in one Perform skill and they all have that number of skill ranks in them).

Charisma is added to Int based skills, not to your int modifier. I fail to see how this would get you Cha twice to anything except Cha based skills. The Double Aura feat is only for draconic auras.

[prufock]

In the 2nd Player's handbook, there's a feat called Jack of all Trades. Combining it's effect with Bardic Knack allows you to use all skills as if you had a number of ranks equal to half your Bard level. :smallsmile:

Debatably doesn't work. Bardic Knack requires you to have one actual rank (specific language) to use "trained only" skills untrained. Jack of All Trades only gives you a HALF of a virtual rank, so it fails by 2 degrees. Your DM might allow it, though, depending on his/her reading.

Similar wording issue exists with using binder 1 or Bind Vestige feat for Naeberius' Skills. Strict reading wouldn't allow you to combine this with Bardic Knack; generous reading does.

The bard spell Improvisation (SpC) gives you 2/lvl points of luck bonus you can add to skill checks. Of course there are other spells: Greater Heroism springs to mind. You can use Bardic Music to get your own competence bonus.

Depending on your ability scores, you might get more mileage dropping some bard in favour of more marshal for more minor auras. It depends on what skills you want to focus on, really. A couple least invocations will give you some all-day bonuses.

Get some allies to aid you for a +2. Masterwork items for +2.

[kulosle]

What type of bonus does Naenhoon give?

We ruled that getting motivate intelligence doesn't let you add your cha to dex/str based skills.

I forgot about bindings, I'll have to look through them to see whats up.

What items give skill bonuses? They would be really useful. Especially if it gives a bonus to several skills like circlet of persuasion.

[Godskook]

What about factotum 3/marshal 3, and get Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence? That way you add Int to all your Str and Dex skills (Hint: Dex powers almost everything), and double-Cha to your Str, Dex, and Int skills? After all, factotum 3 lets you add +Int to everything, and Motivate Int adds +Cha to your +Int skills. Once Cha is added to Int, Motivate Cha to add DOUBLE Cha to everything. Isn't there a double-aura feat?

Dextercorvia hit it, but I want to expound:

1.Factotum doesn't make your Str and Dex based skillchecks into Int-based ones. It simply adds a bonus to them. Motivate Intelligence only adds to Int-based checks, so no-go here.

2.Motivate X does not make X a Cha-based check, thus you can't then use Motivate Charisma to get a double-Cha bonus on it.

3.You can't project multiple auras cause the only double-aura feat is specifically for draconic auras(can't even pull a qualify trick with it).

[Heliomance]

Incarnate. Seriously, Incarnate. This is EXACTLY what the Incarnate does.

[Aegis013]

I read about an awesome build a long time ago, it used a prestige class that had an aura that gave you -1/level to a skill, but provided +1/level to everybody around you. If someone knows what it is, I'd be appreciative if you could remind me.

It used that in conjunction with Artificer to make a ton of diminutive constructs or animate objects which it then commanded them to pile into the character's square (I believe 200 could fit in the square with a medium sized Artificer) and commanded them to use aid another on whatever skill it was producing with the aura. By using 9 levels of the mentioned prestige class, they all automatically succeed the aid another even if they roll a 1. So suddenly, you get +400 to a skill check.

I know there was a name for the build, I read about it on the WotC forums, but my memory+google-fu is failing me at the moment. Nanite build or something along those lines.

It could produce a powerful skill monkey without skills, but you'd have to dedicate the whole character into being it, and it probably wouldn't come to fruition for quite awhile.

[dextercorvia]

What type of bonus does Naenhoon give?


The bonuses for all of the sigils are untyped. I picked Naenhoon because Hoon is the only one that applies to two stats worth of skills, and there are so many Int based skills.

[eggs]

By RAW, Jack of All Trades doesn't do anything. So any use needs some serious user-end corrections.

Something like Bard 5/Unseen Seer 3/Utimate Magus 2/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 8 would really kick off at level 8, then just stay ahead of the game with CL boosts + Divine Insight and Improvisation and UMDed Guidance of the Avatar.

By level 12, it should be able to reliably hit untrained DCs in the mid-60s.
By the high teens, it shouldn't be looking for skills outside the epic level handbook - even without using level 4+ spell slots.

[kulosle]

By RAW, Jack of All Trades doesn't do anything. So any use needs some serious user-end corrections.

Something like Bard 5/Unseen Seer 3/Utimate Magus 2/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 8 would really kick off at level 8, then just stay ahead of the game with CL boosts + Divine Insight and Improvisation and UMDed Guidance of the Avatar.

By level 12, it should be able to reliably hit untrained DCs in the mid-60s.
By the high teens, it shouldn't be looking for skills outside the epic level handbook - even without using level 4+ spell slots.

Could you explain this to me? I don't see how any of it works. UM with just one casting class? What are you doing to get such high skill checks?

[Psyren]

Incarnate has a bunch of skill-monkey soulmelds.


Incarnate. Seriously, Incarnate. This is EXACTLY what the Incarnate does.

These bear repeating. Especially Soul Manifester, as there are a bunch of powers that grant skill bonuses as well.

[Slipperychicken]

What items give skill bonuses? They would be really useful. Especially if it gives a bonus to several skills like circlet of persuasion.

50gp gets Masterwork Tools, which add +2 Circumstance to one skill. For magic items, the formula is ((bonus squared) x 100gp), and the magic item grants a Circumstance bonus. Custom item prices can be cut by 40% with skill/class requirements, but is quite cheesy.

As mentioned before, Guidance of the Avatar is very useful (+20 Competence for one skill roll), albeit very cheesy. Glibness adds +30 Untyped to Bluff for 10min/level.


To really show off how "unskilled-skillful" you are, max out Speak Language, and the thrice-overpowered Craft:(Basketweaving).

[kulosle]

These bear repeating. Especially Soul Manifester, as there are a bunch of powers that grant skill bonuses as well.

What is soul manifester? And the incarnate soulmelds seem to only give a small bonus to a few skills.

[Psyren]

What is soul manifester? And the incarnate soulmelds seem to only give a small bonus to a few skills.

Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is an incarnum/psioncs theurge.

The bonus provided by soulmelds increases with essentia invested. More importantly, many melds allow you to make checks as though trained, which you will need if you want to be able to use certain skills without investing points, like UMD or Sleight of Hand.

Incarnate melds tend to be insight bonuses and Totemist melds tend to be competence; this frees you up for bonuses from other sources like morale, enhancement, circumstance and luck. A few melds are even untyped, thus stacking with everything.

[Draz74]

And the incarnate soulmelds seem to only give a small bonus to a few skills.

There's a whole classic thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers) about how Incarnate can actually be about as good at most skills as, say, a Rogue. And if you dip a level or three in e.g. Factotum and then go Incarnate (or Soul Manifester or whatever) for the rest of your levels, you become even better at skills than the Rogue.


As mentioned before, Guidance of the Avatar is very useful (+20 Competence for one skill roll), albeit very cheesy.
Quoted for emphasis. Also, there's a similar but nerfed spell -- Divine Insight from Spell Compendium? -- that is Level 2 and scales with level but essentially accomplishes the same awesomeness.

[hydraa]

It is sort of against the wish of the build. But you get synergy bonus from some skills, but it requires using skill points to get them

[kulosle]

50gp gets Masterwork Tools, which add +2 Circumstance to one skill. For magic items, the formula is ((bonus squared) x 100gp), and the magic item grants a Circumstance bonus. Custom item prices can be cut by 40% with skill/class requirements, but is quite cheesy.

So what would it be for an item that gives a bonus to multiple skills. Circlet of persuasion gives a +3 to all cha skills and costs 4,500. (3^2)x100 =900 so is it x 5 to apply it to an entire group of skills?

[hydraa]

Items:
Axe of the Sea Reavers +2 Morale (all)/ 1 rnd
Amulet of Wordtwisting +2 insight (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive) {additional +2 if orc}
Armbands of might +2 untyped (STR)
Brute Gauntlets +2/+3/+4 morale (STR) / 1/2/3 charges/day
Enemy spirti pouch +2 untype (favored enemy bonuses)
Third Eye improvisation +5 competence (1 skill , treat as skilled) 1/day
Third Eye Surge +2/+3/+4 insight (STR and DEX) / 1/2/3 charges/day
Torc of the titans +5 morale (STR) 1 rnd 3/day
Skill shard (normal/Greater) +2/+5 compentance next check in 10 minutes 1 use
Gloves of Manual Prowess +5/+7/+10 Compentance (Disable device,Forgery,Open lock, Slieght of Hand, Use Rope) 1/2/3 charges/day


Regalia of the Hero collection 2 pcs +5 untyped (any) {to ally}

Potion of heroism +2 morale 50 minutes
Stone of Good Luck +1 Luck (all)
Ioun stone, pale green prism +1 compentance (all)
Breastplate of Command +2 compentance (CHA)
Boots of striding and Spring +5 compentant (jump)
Elixir of hiding +10 compentence (hide) 1 hr
Elixir of sneak +10 compentence (move silent) 1 hr
Elixir of vision +10 compentence (search) 1 hr
Elixir of Swimming +10 compentance (swim) 1 hr
Golem Manual +5 compentance (skills to craft golem)

Ring of Chameleon Power +10 compentance to Hide
Ring of Climbing +5/+10 compentance to Climb
Ring of Jumping +5/+10 compentance to Jump
Ring of Swimming +5/+10 compentance to swim
Belt of dwarvenking +4/+2/-2 (CHA) dwarfs /Gnomes and halfing/ others
Cloak of the Bat +5 compentance (hide)
Cloak of Elvenkind +5 compentance (hide)
Eyes of the Eagle +5 compentence (spot)
Gloves of Swimming and Climbing +5 compentance (swim and jump)
Goggles of minute seeing +5 compentence (search)
Helm of Comprehend languages and Read magic +5 compentence (dechipher script)
Lens of Detection +5 untyped (search, survivel)
Robe of blending +10 compentence (hide)
robe of eyes +10 compententence (search, spot)
Salve of slipperiness +20 compentence (escape artist)
Vest of escape +4/+6 compenetence (open lock/escape artist)

Familar +1/+2/+3 untyped (various)
Intelligent item +2 luck

[Rubik]

There are skill shards from the Expanded Psionics Handbook that give you a bonus to one skill once, and it's 100 gp per +1 (up to +10). There's also the synaptic mask from Hyperconscious (3rd party, but written by Bruce Cordell, the author of the XPH and some of CPsi) that allows you to reuse a skill shard an infinite number of times so long as it's mounted in the mask for 3,000 gp.

So 4,000 gp for a +10 bonus to one skill (or multiples if you add the qualities of multiple skill shards to one shard, as per the rules in the MIC).

[kulosle]

Items:
Axe of the Sea Reavers +2 Morale (all)/ 1 rnd
Amulet of Wordtwisting +2 insight (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive) {additional +2 if orc}
Armbands of might +2 untyped (STR)
Brute Gauntlets +2/+3/+4 morale (STR) / 1/2/3 charges/day
Enemy spirti pouch +2 untype (favored enemy bonuses)
Third Eye improvisation +5 competence (1 skill , treat as skilled) 1/day
Third Eye Surge +2/+3/+4 insight (STR and DEX) / 1/2/3 charges/day
Torc of the titans +5 morale (STR) 1 rnd 3/day
Skill shard (normal/Greater) +2/+5 compentance next check in 10 minutes 1 use
Gloves of Manual Prowess +5/+7/+10 Compentance (Disable device,Forgery,Open lock, Slieght of Hand, Use Rope) 1/2/3 charges/day


Regalia of the Hero collection 2 pcs +5 untyped (any) {to ally}

Potion of heroism +2 morale 50 minutes
Stone of Good Luck +1 Luck (all)
Ioun stone, pale green prism +1 compentance (all)
Breastplate of Command +2 compentance (CHA)
Boots of striding and Spring +5 compentant (jump)
Elixir of hiding +10 compentence (hide) 1 hr
Elixir of sneak +10 compentence (move silent) 1 hr
Elixir of vision +10 compentence (search) 1 hr
Elixir of Swimming +10 compentance (swim) 1 hr
Golem Manual +5 compentance (skills to craft golem)

Ring of Chameleon Power +10 compentance to Hide
Ring of Climbing +5/+10 compentance to Climb
Ring of Jumping +5/+10 compentance to Jump
Ring of Swimming +5/+10 compentance to swim
Belt of dwarvenking +4/+2/-2 (CHA) dwarfs /Gnomes and halfing/ others
Cloak of the Bat +5 compentance (hide)
Cloak of Elvenkind +5 compentance (hide)
Eyes of the Eagle +5 compentence (spot)
Gloves of Swimming and Climbing +5 compentance (swim and jump)
Goggles of minute seeing +5 compentence (search)
Helm of Comprehend languages and Read magic +5 compentence (dechipher script)
Lens of Detection +5 untyped (search, survivel)
Robe of blending +10 compentence (hide)
robe of eyes +10 compententence (search, spot)
Salve of slipperiness +20 compentence (escape artist)
Vest of escape +4/+6 compenetence (open lock/escape artist)

Familar +1/+2/+3 untyped (various)
Intelligent item +2 luck

Ah thank you. Much appreciated.

Is there any spells that are worth persisting maybe? All the ones I can find can't be persisted.

[eggs]

Could you explain this to me? I don't see how any of it works. UM with just one casting class? What are you doing to get such high skill checks?
I had misremembered several of the limitations of the UM (namely that a prepared casting class was explicitly mentioned in the casting section, rather than just mentioning prepared casting from a spellbook as a prereq).

Anyway, Spellthief 1/Bard 2/Wizard 2/etc. with Master Spellthief works even better than Bard 5 would; it's just less elegant.

[prufock]

I read about an awesome build a long time ago, it used a prestige class that had an aura that gave you -1/level to a skill, but provided +1/level to everybody around you. If someone knows what it is, I'd be appreciative if you could remind me.

Nanobots conquer D&D? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29) Of course, the DM has the right to limit just how many +2 bonuses you can get from aid another, so while a cute TO idea, practical game use is a different story.

[dspeyer]

A Divine Bard / Sacred Exorcist could DMM Persist Greater Heroism for a +4 morale bonus to all skill checks, right?

Also remember to get your ability scores high. Some level-adjust may be worth taking.

[Thurbane]

A dip into Dragonfire Adept can get you the Draconic Knowledge invocations...+6 to all Knowledge & Spellcraft checks for 24 hours at a time.

[Coidzor]

A dip into Dragonfire Adept can get you the Draconic Knowledge invocations...+6 to all Knowledge & Spellcraft checks for 24 hours at a time.

Can DFAs also pick up the Beguiling Influence Invocation as well or is that warlock only?

[Thurbane]

Can DFAs also pick up the Beguiling Influence Invocation as well or is that warlock only?
Yep, it's absolutely on the DFA invocation list (DM p.79)...so DFA 3 could also get +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Both invocations are untyped bonuses, too. :smallbiggrin:

[kulosle]

Sorry for not posting in a while, life got real busy.


A Divine Bard / Sacred Exorcist could DMM Persist Greater Heroism for a +4 morale bonus to all skill checks, right?

Also remember to get your ability scores high. Some level-adjust may be worth taking.

This doesn't work because Greater Heroism doesn't have a range of personal.

On the note of LA, what might be some templates or races that are worth it? Ones that mainly gives attribute bonuses to Int/Cha.

[Zaq]

On my Incarnate, I found that a Third Eye Improvisation (MIC 141) was amazing. +5 competence bonus on a skill in which you're not actually trained is extremely limited in its usefulness on most characters, but on an Incarnate (who's not trained in MOST of the skills they're really good at)? It's a thing of beauty. At 1,000 gp, you can even afford a handful of them by mid-levels, so the 1/day limit isn't that bad.

But yeah, add my voice to the chorus saying "Incarnate!" They're hilariously good at that sort of thing. You might want to dip a level or two into Totemist as well, just to pick up a couple melds that give skill boosts that Incarnates don't usually get—Hide/MS (Worg Pelt or Kruthik Claws, among others) are the big ones, but there's also Heal/Survival (Hunter's Circlet), Listen (Yrthak Mask, Shadow Mantle), Climb (Phase Cloak), and Intimidate (Brass Mane—Incarnates can get Intimidate with the Elder Spirit crown bind, but that requires a bind, not to mention the [Dragonblood] subtype).

Just about the only skills you can't get with the Incarnate and Totemist lists are Appraise, Disguise, Craft/Profession, some Knowledges, and some marginal ones like Martial Lore, Truespeak, Control Shape, and Lucid Dreaming.

In fact, now that I think about it:
Appraise: None
Autohypnosis: Psion's Eyes
Balance: Acrobat Boots
Bluff: Silvertongue Mask
Climb: Phase Cloak
Concentration: Vitality Belt
Craft: None
Decipher Script: Mage's Spectacles
Diplomacy: Silvertongue Mask
Disable Device: Theft Gloves
Disguise: None
Escape Artist: Acrobat Boots
Forgery: None
Gather Information: Truthseeker Goggles
Handle Animal: Beast Tamer Circlet
Heal: Hunter's Circlet
Hide: Kruthik Claws
Intimidate: Brass Mane
Jump: Acrobat Boots
Knowledge: Elder Spirit (arcana and history only)
Listen: Shadow Mantle
Move Silently: Kruthik Claws
Open Lock: Theft Gloves
Perform: None
Profession: Sailor's Bracers (sailor only)
Psicraft: Psion's Eyes
Ride: Riding Bracers
Search: Truthseeker Goggles
Sense Motive: Truthseeker Goggles
Sleight of Hand: Necrocarnum Touch
Speak Language: Soulspeaker Circlet
Spellcraft: Mage's Spectacles
Spot: Keeneye Lenses
Survival: Hunter's Circlet
Swim: Sailor's Bracers
Tumble: Acrobat Boots
Use Magic Device: Mage's Spectacles
Use Psionic Device: Psion's Eyes
Use Rope: Sailor's Bracers

So yeah, Appraise, Disguise, and Forgery are the only ones other than "category" ones (Craft, Profession, Knowledge, Perform) and nonstandard ones (Martial Lore, Truespeak, Iaijutsu Focus, Lucid Dreaming, Control Shape) that you can't get melds for. Not bad, really.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Two levels in Warlock give you Beguiling Influence and Leaps and Bounds, followed by a level in Dragonfire Adept, which gives you Draconic Knowledge, which gives you a +6 untyped bonus to Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any and all), Spellcraft and Tumble, and allows you to use all of them untrained (except, I suppose, Tumble). I don't know if those bonuses are too niche or anything, but they are certainly worth the trade--in exchange for three levels of Bard (-1 to all skills), you are getting effectively 108 skill ranks' worth of bonuses in three levels, counting the core knowledges only, although admittedly, almost all of that is coming from the Dragonfire Adept dip (and the Knowledge checks). The two levels of Warlock are still worth 36 points' worth of skills, which is a close to even trade, but with uneven distribution.

[Slipperychicken]

So what would it be for an item that gives a bonus to multiple skills. Circlet of persuasion gives a +3 to all cha skills and costs 4,500. (3^2)x100 =900 so is it x 5 to apply it to an entire group of skills?

For "multiple similar abilities" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) on the same item, you calculate the cost as: (highest-priced-ability full price)+(second highest cost x 0.75) + (all subsequent abilities x 0.50)

[doko239]

If you're willing/able to dip into Pathfinder sources, I'd recommend a level dip into the Synthesist Summoner archetype from Ultimate Magic. Among the other cheese that class gives you (physical stat replacement, natural armor and weapons, huge HP boost, spell-like abilities, etc), one of the possible uses of the "Evolution" class ability is a +8 racial bonus to one skill, which can be taken multiple times for different skills at a cost of 1 evolution point per skill (a 1st level Synthesist gets 3 evolution points). You can then take the Extra Evolution feat from the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide for an additional 1 evolution point per feat spent, getting another +8 to a skill.

[Chronos]

Incarnum doesn't provide any way to get any meaningful bonus to Hide or Move Silently. Yes, there are a couple of Totemist melds, but the bonuses they give are Competence bonuses, which makes them effectively worthless. Anyone who's trying to be a skillmonkey will have magic items that give Competence bonuses anyway (like the Shadow and Silent Moves armor properties), and the bonuses you can get from items are higher than what the soulmeld gives, so the soulmeld ends up having no effect.

Meanwhile: It looks like most of your levels are going to be in high-skill classes (Factotum and Bard), and if you're planning on getting use out of the Factotum Brains over Brawn ability, which it looks like you are, then you're also planning on having a decent Int. You're going to end up with a ton of skill points-- What are you planning on doing with all of them?

[Thurbane]

This doesn't work because Greater Heroism doesn't have a range of personal.
I'm a bit rusty on the particulars, but doesn't Occular Spell somehow get around that?

Two levels in Warlock give you Beguiling Influence and Leaps and Bounds, followed by a level in Dragonfire Adept, which gives you Draconic Knowledge, which gives you a +6 untyped bonus to Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any and all), Spellcraft and Tumble, and allows you to use all of them untrained (except, I suppose, Tumble).
That...is...awesome! :smallsmile:

[Aeryr]

By RAW, Jack of All Trades doesn't do anything. So any use needs some serious user-end corrections.

You mean in conjuntion with bardick knack?

Can anyone explain me why? I am AFB but I always thought that since it let you roll skill checks (for untrained skills) and bardic knack let you replace skill ranks with bard level/2 it was a really nice combination and gave the bards a good skillmonkeing capabilitie.

It not working makes me sad.

[Socratov]

well, some argue that half a rank (is no rank) does not qualify as having invested a rank in. However, the SRD says it just allows you to make any skillcheck untrained



Jack of All Trades [General]

Prerequisite
You must be at least 6th level.
Benefit
You can use any skill untrained, even those that normally require training.


Bardick Knack

snip for relevence

...If the skill doesn't allow untrained checks, you ust have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the skillcheck


Bardic Knack states that you can't use untrained skills when you don't have a rank in them, but as I read it jack of all trades allows you to make untrained skillchekc, even with trained only skills, so it should be legal be RAW.

[Morph Bark]

Nanobots conquer D&D? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29) Of course, the DM has the right to limit just how many +2 bonuses you can get from aid another, so while a cute TO idea, practical game use is a different story.

Does that nanobot thing even work? I thought Aid Another bonuses did not stack? :smallconfused:


A dip into Dragonfire Adept can get you the Draconic Knowledge invocations...+6 to all Knowledge & Spellcraft checks for 24 hours at a time.

Better is to take a level in Dragon Shaman instead, then take the Draconic Invocation ACF so you can trade up to three auras for invocations and get both Draconic Knowledge, Beguiling Influence and one other invocation, like the one allowing you to Identify for free, at will. Or get an aura!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Does that nanobot thing even work? I thought Aid Another bonuses did not stack? :smallconfused:

They do. Think of it this way: does ten people pushing against a stuck door help you open it any better than two people pushing against the same stuck door?


Better is to take a level in Dragon Shaman instead, then take the Draconic Invocation ACF so you can trade up to three auras for invocations and get both Draconic Knowledge, Beguiling Influence and one other invocation, like the one allowing you to Identify for free, at will. Or get an aura!

Draconic Invocation? All I know of is the Shamanic Invocation ACF (Dragon Magic 14), which, unfortunately, requires Dragon Shaman 5th.

[kulosle]

Incarnum doesn't provide any way to get any meaningful bonus to Hide or Move Silently. Yes, there are a couple of Totemist melds, but the bonuses they give are Competence bonuses, which makes them effectively worthless. Anyone who's trying to be a skillmonkey will have magic items that give Competence bonuses anyway (like the Shadow and Silent Moves armor properties), and the bonuses you can get from items are higher than what the soulmeld gives, so the soulmeld ends up having no effect.

Meanwhile: It looks like most of your levels are going to be in high-skill classes (Factotum and Bard), and if you're planning on getting use out of the Factotum Brains over Brawn ability, which it looks like you are, then you're also planning on having a decent Int. You're going to end up with a ton of skill points-- What are you planning on doing with all of them?

I agree with the Totemist bit. Doesn't seem to be that useful. My main question is how many levels do I have to invest into Incarnate to make it worth it?

I am planning on putting skill ranks in what ever I can't get high without it or the ones that have good epic skill uses. That and buy as many skill tricks as I can. This is more of just a fun exercise than a playable character. I really don't care if I end up with a lot of unused skill points.

[Morph Bark]

They do. Think of it this way: does ten people pushing against a stuck door help you open it any better than two people pushing against the same stuck door?

True, but on the other hand ten people telling you at the same time how to open a lock will just distract you.

Could you provide a source on the stacking rule for Aid Another, please? This will make a LOT of difference for a character I'm making.

[Socratov]

if we go this way, there are way more examples that just don't add up in the rules...

[kulosle]

I can't find it but I was always play that Aid other bonuses stack but the DM decides how many people can aid you. 200 people can't help pull on a 10ft rope but 10 people can definitely help.

As far as templates go, the only good one I've found so far is magic blooded for a +2 to cha for free. Is there any good templates for Int/Cha?

[Shadowleaf]

I can't find it but I was always play that Aid other bonuses stack but the DM decides how many people can aid you. 200 people can't help pull on a 10ft rope but 10 people can definitely help.

As far as templates go, the only good one I've found so far is magic blooded for a +2 to cha for free. Is there any good templates for Int/Cha?


You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
Relevant quote.

[prufock]

True, but on the other hand ten people telling you at the same time how to open a lock will just distract you.

Could you provide a source on the stacking rule for Aid Another, please? This will make a LOT of difference for a character I'm making.

1. Aid Another provides an untyped bonus. Untyped bonuses from different sources stack.
2. Special attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) section of the SRD says "Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack. You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check."
3. "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once."