Does the cleric eliminate the need for mosts classes?

[Kaeso]

In spite of your suspicions this is not a tier thread that compares the relative strength of classes. Yes, we know the wizard, druid and cleric (in that order of power) can do pretty much everything all the other classes can do and more (save for perhaps the ToB classes). However, I'm not here to discuss that the cleric can outdo other classes, I'm here to discuss that the cleric can be other classes, making most of them useless.

Let's take a look at what classes a cleric can mimic/replace with relative ease:
Paladin: Fresh out of the box a cleric is already better than a paladin. Take the war domain for a better weapon and DMM: persist divine power or Ordained Champion for even more goodness.
Fighter/Barbarian: Same as above except with magic instead of feats/rage. To mimic a barbarian even more closely one could take Kord as his patron god and take the war and strength domains to mimic the brute force of a barbarian, perhaps even some nature related domains or the travel domain for survival.
Ranger: Pick a nature related deity, pick the war domain or be an elf, take the nature, plant and/or other nature related domains. Take Zen Archery as your first feat and voilà, you're a SAD ranger. If you really want an animal companion, wild cohort is the way to go. Again, travel domain gives you survival as a class skill and you can take track as a feat. Divine power, ordained champion and/or the knowledge devotion feat (in combination with cloistered cleric) gives you the BAB you need.
Warmage/Warlock: The ammount of blast spells in the clerics spell list are meagre, but a toolkit only needs so many hammers. Unless I'm mistaken, the clerics hammerset covers quite a few bases. Just pick a few blast spells, throw some metamagic on them and you can outblast any warmage any day of the weak and still be, you know, a frickin' cleric. Sure, you don't have arcane thesis but you have something even better: Divine Metamagic. DMM: Empower can be quite fierce, with enough cha (and/or extra turn undead) you can maximize pretty much all of your blast spells.
Rogue: Cloistered cleric, trickery domain, divine insight spell.... need I say more? Evasion can be bought on a ring and I'm pretty sure there is some way to gain trapfinding.
Et cetera, et cetera...

My point is that the cleric is every class except the ones in the top 2 tiers and perhaps a select few tier 3 classes, making said classes completely redundant. Am I right for believing this or am I overlooking something vital?

[Gnaeus]

Rogue: Cloistered cleric, trickery domain, divine insight spell.... need I say more? Evasion can be bought on a ring and I'm pretty sure there is some way to gain trapfinding.


Kobold Domain


My point is that the cleric [B]is[/B every class except the ones in the top 2 tiers and perhaps a select few tier 3 classes, making said classes completely redundant. Am I right for believing this or am I overlooking something vital?

You are right. Except of course that you can run the same analysis with any T1 and also be right.

[Kaeso]

Kobold Domain

Ah, thanks man!


You are right. Except of course that you can run the same analysis with any T1 and also be right.

Oh really? If that is so, could you tell me how you make a ranger with a wizard, or how you make a rogue out of a druid? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely curious. As far as I'm concerned most of the class-replacing versatility of clerics comes from their domains.

[JoshuaZ]

While this is somewhat true, it isn't completely true once some minimal fluff is taken into account. Not every deity has the war domain for example, and very few deities have the kobold domain.

There's a real problem here, but the size of the problem is slightly smaller than you make it out to be.

[Kaeso]

While this is somewhat true, it isn't completely true once some minimal fluff is taken into account. Not every deity has the war domain for example, and very few deities have the kobold domain.

There's a real problem here, but the size of the problem is slightly smaller than you make it out to be.

While you're right about the small amount of deities granting the kobold domain, quite a few deities grant the war domain and have some good weapons (correllon larethian and heironeous have the longsword, kord has the greatsword etc.) However, to mimic a paladin or fighter the war domain isn't strictly needed, since a cleric with a mace is just as good a fighter, and "ice axe" is a cleric spell. "Ranger" clerics will have difficulty finding a war domain granting god with the bow as his weapon of choice, but being an elf solves that (and there's so many subtypes of elf that you can pick and choose whichever fits best).

[Elric VIII]

Ah, thanks man!



Oh really? If that is so, could you tell me how you make a ranger with a wizard, or how you make a rogue out of a druid? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely curious. As far as I'm concerned most of the class-replacing versatility of clerics comes from their domains.

Wizard as a Ranger. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031209a)

Daggerspell Shaper + Assassin's Stance, along with the Cityscape Druid option (for a more accurate skill list) makes you a Druid-Rogue.


Also, as for the Cleric-Rogue front, there's a feat called Sacred Outlaw (Dr357) that stacks Rogue and Cleric levels for SA and TU.

[Toliudar]

Oh really? If that is so, could you tell me how you make a ranger with a wizard, or how you make a rogue out of a druid? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely curious. As far as I'm concerned most of the class-replacing versatility of clerics comes from their domains.

I suppose it depends on how you see the 'ranger' niche. If it's a melee striker, polymorph goes a long way towards accomplishing that for a wizard. If it's ranged damage, then blasty spells take care of that role. For scouting, divinations like prying eyes and scrying.

Again, for rogue, it depends on the niche. The stealth aspect is well duplicated with avian wildshape forms, as small as possible. For trapspringing, summoned monsters and (if need be) the Summon Elemental feat. Warp wood, stone shape and similar spells help get you past barriers.

I'm not sure how this thread ISN'T a conversation about how tier 1 classes can do what the other classes do and more.

[Aegis013]

Oh really? If that is so, could you tell me how you make a ranger with a wizard, or how you make a rogue out of a druid? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely curious. As far as I'm concerned most of the class-replacing versatility of clerics comes from their domains.

I played a wizard in a game awhile back that via buffs and polymorph could go toe-to-toe with our melee's (I usually just buffed the melee's and did battlefield control though). I think there's some polymorph-esque spell that can turn you into an arrow demon or whatever that creature with 4 arms that shoots 2 bows at once is as a Wizard, for making the ranger feel useless.

I mitigated the need for a rogue with things like instant search spell and a wand of knock.

I helped most of the other players pick t1 classes so that even if we were redundant with each other, we'd all be strong enough that it wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, a late-joiner rolled a rogue and I wasn't able to help. He expressed the sentiment that my character made him feel redundant (since I had spells to take care of the rogue-y jobs as we didn't start with one) even though I backed off and quit using those spells, so he could handle those types of things.

Druid can do a lot of this stuff too, as can Cleric.

[Gnaeus]

Oh really? If that is so, could you tell me how you make a ranger with a wizard, or how you make a rogue out of a druid? I'm not being sarcastic, just genuinely curious. As far as I'm concerned most of the class-replacing versatility of clerics comes from their domains.

As mentioned, it does depend on exactly what you mean.

For wizard/ranger, I would persist wraithstrike and wield 2 weapons. Use heroics to duplicate either twf or an archery feat. Take a wild cohort as a feat, or the ACF that lets you swap familiar for AC. Or an improved familiar that can polymorph into a ranger pet, like an imp. Lots of knowledge nature+cc ranks in other key ranger skills that I then boost with spells for skill buffs. Arcane disciple (Animal or plant or some other druidy domain). Heart of X spells duplicate other skills and some of ranger's toughness. Invisibility replaces Hide. Craft wondrous Items to fill in any skillmonkey gaps.

Edit: Greater magic weapon for better hit and damage. Greater mighty wallop if yow want to double wield light maces. Polymorph is always a winner. Bite of the wereX if you want to do it in a rangery style. False life for some extra HP.

[KillianHawkeye]

quite a few deities grant the war domain and have some good weapons (correllon larethian and heironeous have the longsword, kord has the greatsword etc.)

But Kord isn't a war god.... :smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here's all three party roles/archetypes that Cleric doesn't fill by default:

Fighter/similar: Pick Zarus for the Strength and War domain, and favored weapon: Greatsword. You have a frontline combatant that's just as good as any dedicated melee. Grab Divine Oracle 4 and you get Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Pick up Contemplative and get the Law and Destiny domains, Law gets Hold Monster and a bunch of other useful spells, and DMM: Persistent Choose Destiny is probably the absolute best buff in existence. You don't necessarily have to use Zarus, but it's my personal favorite. The Wrath domain is quite good, especially with the PH2 ACF.

Rogue/similar: Kobold Cloistered Cleric, Trickery and Kobold domains. Maybe even say he secretly worships Vecna and get the Whispered Secrets initiate feat from Races of Destiny, to also get Listen and Spot as class skills. That also gives you some bonus spells and an ability to always automatically know when you're being viewed via a Divination spell. I'd just stay single-classed with this one, because of the Cloistered Cleric skill points. Maybe see if you can trade Lore for the Bardic Knack ACF in PH2 to top it off.

Blaster/similar: Get the Cold and probably Fire domains, along with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Cold, and you're all set. DMM: Maximize wouldn't be a bad idea, and (Lesser) Rods of Extend for Sleet/Ice Storm, Chill Metal, Produce Flame, etc. can be extremely useful. Pick up Ruathar to get the skills for a Seeker of the Misty Isle dip for the Travel domain, and you get most of a Wizard's mobility spells. Grab Contemplative for more domains, Slime gets you Black Tentacles and a few others, and Time can fill out your list for emulating an arcane caster.

[dextercorvia]

But Kord isn't a war god.... :smallconfused:

That's what Planar Touchstone linked to the catalogs of enlightenment are for.

[Madara]

I'd say they can't replace an Artificer, and they don't make good crafters.

[Kaeso]

I'd say they can't replace an Artificer

Then again, artificers are tier 1.

[Gnaeus]

and they don't make good crafters.

Debatable. The fact that they know every spell on their list helps them a lot. They arent as good at it as an artificer, or a wizard that has very good spellbook access. But they are much better crafters than anything T2 or below except for warlock, and may be better than wizard/archivist if DM is stingy with spells.

[Snowbluff]

Debatable. The fact that they know every spell on their list helps them a lot. They arent as good at it as an artificer, or a wizard that has very good spellbook access. But they are much better crafters than anything T2 or below except for warlock, and may be better than wizard/archivist if DM is stingy with spells.

Yeah, a lot of wondrous items can be made from their list no problem.

[Gavinfoxx]

Cleric as Rogue, starting at level 1:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794