Kraagor x Girard

[Eigenclass]

This is not a slash fanfic, though I got the idea talking about the context of interesting slash pairings (don't ask).

But I'm actually wondering if Girard and Kraagor were close, like more than friends close, and whether this is the root cause behind the bad blood between Girard and Soon.

From what we know from Durkon's attitudes ("quote: Not tha' there's anything wrong with the alternative"), Dwarven society might not have any problems about this - anyway, we know that chaotic dwarves (Hilgya) don't really care about mainstream dwarven norms anyway.

The Sapphire Guard seems to have a different interpretation of "Lawful Good", though. For starters, they're a secret extra-legal paramilitary organization that considers itself to have universal jurisdiction, even outside the borders originally consigned to the Southern Gods. I wonder if Soon had a different opinion about traditional relationships, and had said something intolerant that Girard never quite forgave.

Given the apparent circumstances of Kraagor's death, even if Soon only said something once and sincerely apologized afterwards (being Lawful Good after all), there'd always be that seed of doubt as to whether he hated Kraagor and wanted him to die.

Soon also probably lectured Girard afterwards about their mission being more important than personal relationships - probably thought it'd help actually, in the narrow-minded stereotypical Lawful Good way - but Girard sees this as hypocracy, because Soon's "only cares about avenging his dead wife" (paraphrased).

It would certainly explain Girard's animosity - even if he was Chaotic Good, something of that magnitude would conceivably drive him to murderous rage, and teaching entire generations of his offspring that paladins are intolerant hypocrites.

I mean, Girard would obviously have to be at least bi, because he went on to sire descendants, but that doesn't rule out a romantic involvement with Kraagor. This whole have-kids-and-run thing might be an outcropping of Girard having been very seriously damaged emotionally, and wanting to avoid close relationships after Kraagor's passing.

Has anyone else kind of got this impression in the past, or found any evidence to support (or irrefutably contradict) the idea?

P.S. I REALLY hope we can limit the scope of this thread to the characters in the story, and nothing else.

[t209]

No, Girard is not gay! He already have kids (from marrying and kidnappings)! Plus serini fell in love with Kraagor.

[FujinAkari]

No, Girard is not gay! He already have kids (from marrying and kidnappings)! Plus serini fell in love with Kraagor.

Neither of these mean anything :)

It is an interesting theory... I somewhat doubt it only because Human/Dwarf couplings are fairly unheard of in fantasy settings, but who knows? The problem is we know so little about Girard, and even less about Kraegor, that it is basically impossible to conform, refute, support, or oppose this idea.

[HearTheRequiem]

No, Girard is not gay! He already have kids (from marrying and kidnappings)! Plus serini fell in love with Kraagor.

Girard's children were addressed in the OP, and Serini thought Kraagor was "Mean! Grrrr!" according to her diary.

I quite like this idea, it's reasonably feasible and would explain things quite well.

[Eigenclass]

Plus serini fell in love with Kraagor.

I think you mean Girard - you're referring to the little hearts drawn around him in her notebook? How would Girard being gay/bi prevent Serini from being drawn to his looks and/or charm?


Serini thought Kraagor was "Mean! Grrrr!" according to her diary.

You would be "Mean! Grrr!" too if someone failed to back up off your cheesecake. :-)

* Fixed spoiler -> quote.

[MReav]

Honestly, I think Girard and Soon would have very different opinions on what needs to be done. Girard would likely be all for protecting one's own above all else, while Soon would likely be more willing to sacrifice his allies to save many more. It's just that the crack against Soon's wife is likely because he thinks Soon isn't above it all.


The Sapphire Guard seems to have a different interpretation of "Lawful Good", though. For starters, they're a secret extra-legal paramilitary organization that considers itself to have universal jurisdiction, even outside the borders originally consigned to the Southern Gods.

SOD spoiler:

Divine classes are the agents through which the gods are allowed to affect events happening in other lands, particularly if they have consequences in their own lands (and a giant god-killing, world-destroying abomination getting loose would affect their own lands). If they believe they have the right to do stuff in other lands at the behest of their gods, it's because the gods told them so.

(After Dragon suggests they partition the world into three and each pantheon rules their lands as they see fit without interference)

Marduk: Uh, OK, neat idea, Dragon, but what if something happens in your lands that really affects MY lands.

Dragon: Well... we can each choose certain mortals to serve us, and we can give them cool magic spells.

[Gift Jeraff]

Kraagor was apparently unmade--a fate far worse than death. Why does there have to be any romantic or sexual reason to be upset about that? I would be very upset if anyone was wiped off the face of existence in a world with a verifiable afterlife. Even Redcloak gets emotionally pissed off when he thinks O-Chul doesn't care about the existence of his fellow humans, and Redcloak hates humans!

So, no. I support this as much as I support "Niu was in love with Thanh because she shed a tear for his death," "Lirian was in love with Kraagor because she called him 'dearest Kraagor,'" and "Serini was in love with Kraagor because she cried about his death and made a tomb in his honor."

[fergo]

From what we know from Durkon's attitudes ("quote: Not tha' there's anything wrong with the alternative"), Dwarven society might not have any problems about this

I always figured that particular remark was more because Durkon is meant to be a likable (relatively) straight man-type character.


No, Girard is not gay! He already have kids (from marrying and kidnappings)! Plus serini fell in love with Kraagor.

As the OP said, he might be bi. Also, Serini had a crush on Girard, not Kraagor, and that doesn't mean Girard felt the same way (I always got the impression, at least at the time of writing the diary, it was more of a wishful thing than an actual relationship).

That said, while I do like this theory, I'm more inclined to think that it's rather unlikely.

I think Girard genuinely liked and trusted the members of his party, except of course Soon (and who knows, perhaps he had trusted Soon before the party was driven apart by Kraagor's death, or whateevr other reasons there may have been). For all this 'only trusts his family' stuff, there's still a few hints he was in touch with other ex-members of the party.

Perhaps part of his paranoia came from how (he felt) he was betrayed by Soon.

And the Giant's explicitly said that when we know the full story, we'll be less inclined to believe Girard's as paranoid as we do at the moment...

[rgrekejin]

The problem is we know so little about Girard, and even less about Kraegor, that it is basically impossible to conform, refute, support, or oppose this idea.

I'm going to go with "Possible but extremely unlikely" on this one. We have no reason to suspect that this is the case. I think that you could make a (weak) circumstantial argument against it, though.

They don't need to be lovers for Girard to be upset about Kraagor's death, they just have to be friends (and, depending on how much hate Girard has for Soon, and why he has it, it might not even require that). Plus, we know from #277 that Dorukan also was ready to attack Soon at the end, which kind of implies that whatever Soon did to piss off Girard, it affected Dorukan as well.

Also, the Sapphire Guard, from what we've seen of it, doesn't seem to bear any sort of institutional intolerance that might suggest some on the part of it's founder. Well, except Miko. But Miko's crazy.

Intolerance towards Goblins notwithstanding, but I really don't want to have that debate.
Admittedly, that's all pretty thin but that's really all the evidence we have either way. I suspect that whatever caused the split in the Order is probably going to be more along the lines of traditional adventuring drama, though.

[Excise]

While it's possible, it seems really unlikely. Everything we've seen of the Girard / Soon dislike seems to be due to Girard disliking paladins and honour in general.

In #276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) we see Kraagor's tomb, and Girard gets sassy with Soon about it. He doesn't seem too shaken up about it. Certainly not "murderous rage". If anything he just seems... slightly miffed.

In the next comic Dorukon is the one who mentions the death of their ally. Girard just mentions that honour isn't going to be good enough to protect the gates.

So while anything's possible, I feel like there's zero evidence towards it.

Edit: Girard does look ticked off about Kraagor's death when he tries to blow up the OotS at the end of #695 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), but then again he spends 90% of that speech railing against Soon's honour.

[Grey Watcher]

On the subject of the Sapphire Guards attitudes towards LGBT people, wasn't there a scene in a bonus comic in one of the books where... ... Miko asked if she could join some fellow female Paladins on their New Year's dinner, and they lied and said it was a date in order to get her to leave them alone (they mention atoning for the lie, despite being seen making out later). Miko doesn't have any particular reaction to the notion of two of her fellow Paladins in a same sex relationship.

I'm away from my books, so I can't find it, specifically. But if I remember the scene correctly, it would seem to indicate that, as of now, the Sapphire Guard is LGBT (or at least LG) friendly. Granted, that doesn't speak directly to how Soon felt 60-some-odd years ago, but, if they're willing to stick to the Oath, how much would they be willing to deviate from Soon's other attitudes?

[Eigenclass]

Also, the Sapphire Guard, from what we've seen of it, doesn't seem to bear any sort of institutional intolerance that might suggest some on the part of it's founder

Well, we are talking about the same society that made Therkla feel ostracised to the point where she had to take in with the likes of Kubota. Maybe it's the moustache, but Soon kinda puts out that foot-in-his-mouth traditionalist vibe for me...


Human/Dwarf couplings are fairly unheard of in fantasy settings

If you mean this in the sense that you don't hear very often about half-human-half-dwarves, somehow I don't think that's a factor here (sorry, tasteless, but I couldn't resist >_<).


To be honest, even if this theory is true, I don't think we're going to find any smoking gun, because Mr. The Giant is too clever at hiding things like this. But we do know that we don't "know the whole story", ergo, there exists a whole story to be known.

There's a wide gulf between "upset" and "belligerent, possibly homicidal". There has to be something that caused Girard to bridge this gap - something that implies a personal connection between him and Kraagor, because Giraard keeps bringing him up.

And also, I'm having a hard time reconciling an evil or apathetic Giraard giving up his fortune, his freedom, and his entire family's destiny for the forseeable future to protect the gates, so maybe he's actually Chaotic Good. Plus if he wasn't of a "trustworthy" alignment, how could the rest of the Order of the Scribble have trusted him with his own gate?

If he's Good, then there must be major bad blood between him and Soon. This is just the simplest thread that connects all these things for me.

[rgrekejin]

On the subject of the Sapphire Guards attitudes towards LGBT people, wasn't there a scene in a bonus comic in one of the books where... ... Miko asked if she could join some fellow female Paladins on their New Year's dinner, and they lied and said it was a date in order to get her to leave them alone (they mention atoning for the lie, despite being seen making out later). Miko doesn't have any particular reaction to the notion of two of her fellow Paladins in a same sex relationship.

Huh. Well, that lends even more credence to my remarks about the Sapphire Guard. I'm missing the printed versions of No Cure for the Paladin Blues and War and XPs (but not for long!) so I had no idea. Thanks for letting me know.


Well, we are talking about the same society that made Therkla feel ostracised to the point where she had to take in with the likes of Kubota. Maybe it's the moustache, but Soon kinda puts out that foot-in-his-mouth traditionalist vibe for me...

What, exactly makes us think that Therkla was so severely ostracized? I may be forgetting something, but the only thing I can think of is a vague line in #582 about "not fitting in", which could mean a lot of things. It certainly isn't a ringing denouncement of Azure City's tolerance.

[ti'esar]

platonic (adjective)

pla·ton·ic

1. not involving sexual relations

involving friendship, affection, or love without sexual relations between people who might be expected to be sexually attracted to each other


I can't help but feel that a lot of people in fandoms (any fandoms) need to read this definition. Seriously, it was bad enough with the Thanh/Niu thing. Why must people assume that any serious grief on a part of a character stems from a romantic interest? Are "just friends" incapable of sorrow? :smallmad:

I don't really have any concrete objections to this theory, but is it so hard to believe that Girard's grudge stems from the fact that he and Kraagor were just good buddies?

[Math_Mage]

There is no reason to suspect that this is the case. Girard's animosity towards Soon over Kraagor is no greater than Dorukan's--if Girard and Soon are greater enemies than Dorukan and Soon, it's because Girard is naturally mistrustful of authority and Lawful characters (we see a tension with Soon long before Kraagor's unmaking). Neither of them has indicated any special interest in each other in the entire comic, let alone a special interest. It adds nothing to the narrative except controversy bait. Just don't go there.

(Then again, I would have said similar things about an Epileptic Tree regarding Dumbledore being gay for Grindelwald, so I guess my standards for rational insertion of sexual orientation as a plot point may be too high.)

As for "Therkla was so ostracized she was forced to take up with Kubota," neither clause is true. She was something of a misfit, per the comic, which is to ostracism what dumb pickup lines are to rape. And she genuinely admired Kubota, hence did not need to be "forced" to serve him.

[The Extinguisher]

Kraagor was apparently unmade--a fate far worse than death. Why does there have to be any romantic or sexual reason to be upset about that? I would be very upset if anyone was wiped off the face of existence in a world with a verifiable afterlife. Even Redcloak gets emotionally pissed off when he thinks O-Chul doesn't care about the existence of his fellow humans, and Redcloak hates humans!

So, no. I support this as much as I support "Niu was in love with Thanh because she shed a tear for his death," "Lirian was in love with Kraagor because she called him 'dearest Kraagor,'" and "Serini was in love with Kraagor because she cried about his death and made a tomb in his honor."

New theory. Everyone was in love with Kraagor. That's why there was so much tension after he died.

[ti'esar]

New theory. Everyone was in love with Kraagor. That's why there was so much tension after he died.

I thought about putting this in my post, but it felt too obvious.

[Murray]

I always kinda thought that Kraagor's death might've been the straw that broke back of the dysfunctional adventuring party camel's back. I don't think the party was much of a happy family, and "Anger and resentment that had simmered through years of adventuring were suddenly unleashed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)" etc, etc, etc. I still kinda wonder if there's more serious pieces to the Order of the Scribble's discord that will be learned of later.

But I would find it amusing if there was a Serinin-Girard-Kraagor love triangle going on alongside a poorly acted professional facade to the Dorukan-Lirian romance, leaving the emotionally distant Soon wanting to save the world before he cracked from the soap opera circus that was his day-to-day life. :smallsmile:

[Fenice]

I sure hope there'll be some gay character in this comic sooner or later.
(Well, Sabine is bi, if you know what I mean (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) :smallwink: )

But I don't think a romantic relationship between Girard and Kraagor is supported by what we have seen so far.
Girard never really liked paladins in the first place, even before Kraagor's death. "Will we have to implant the stick up your ass, or will it grow there once you take the level?"

Plus, Serini is seen crying at Kraagor's tomb and later she builds a gate after him. Lirian is seen to be sad and she calls him "Dearest Kraagor". Dorukan is the one to tell Soon "And you don't care if your allies fall, as long as you avenge your dead wife!"
Girard? Nothing noteworthy.

[Kish]

And the Giant's explicitly said that when we know the full story, we'll be less inclined to believe Girard's as paranoid as we do at the moment...
Is this Telephone Game, or do you have a source?

[ThePhantasm]

Girard was not the only one upset by Kraagor's death, and animosity broke out between all the members of the Scribble. Dorukan was pretty pissed at Soon too for whatever reason.

I'd rather it just be anguish over the loss of a party member rather than the result of some tragically ended romance. Having what happened to the Scribble be some allegory about perceived intolerance or the persecution of gay people or something seems like an odd way to go with the story. The comic hasn't had any indication of such a theme so far (from what I can tell) so why do so now? Plus I think it would minimize one of the central themes of this arc - paranoia and the importance of family - in favor of some sort of intolerance / persecution theme that hasn't yet made one inkling of an appearance.

Is it possible? I guess anything is. Is it likely? I don't see the story in any way moving in that direction.

Also, this looks like a thread that will quickly devolve into real-world morality / politics issues...

[martianmister]

New theory. Everyone was in love with Kraagor. That's why there was so much tension after he died.

Everyone except Soon. :smallwink:

[rgrekejin]

I sure hope there'll be some gay character in this comic sooner or later.

I think you've forgotten someone. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

Unless, you know, you mean a major character...

[blackspeeker]

Everyone except Soon. :smallwink:

And he was probably jealous of all the love the barbarian dwarf recieved. :smalltongue:

[Grey Watcher]

...

But I would find it amusing if there was a Serinin-Girard-Kraagor love triangle going on alongside a poorly acted professional facade to the Dorukan-Lirian romance, leaving the emotionally distant Soon wanting to save the world before he cracked from the soap opera circus that was his day-to-day life. :smallsmile:

That... would be awesome. I don't care if it's canon or not, that idea is way too amusing for me to ignore.


I sure hope there'll be some gay character in this comic sooner or later....

Is this the time to bring up my personal Epileptic Tree about Hinjo being gay?

[fergo]

Is this Telephone Game, or do you have a source?

Forgive me if I'm misremembering this, but didn't he say as much in the audio interview he gave during the Kickstarter Drive? (Sory, I can't remember what the site was called).

[ThePhantasm]

Forgive me if I'm misremembering this, but didn't he say as much in the audio interview he gave during the Kickstarter Drive? (Sory, I can't remember what the site was called).

See 5F (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12094927&postcount=2):


Rich: Right, exactly. Where you would, I think most people would immediately go "yeah, but-but Soon Kim was a paladin, he wouldn't do something bad," and you have to see that to Girard's point of view, just the sort of organiz-- that a man doesn't create a secret organization of warriors unless he plans to use it for something. You know what I mean, the sort of. . . expecting-the-worst-in-human-nature-at-all-times pessimism that says that if Soon Kim is gonna make this sort of legion of magical warriors and keep them secret from his populace, that clearly he's up to something.

And there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid. But yeah, there's more there going on with what happened with the Order of the Scribble than has been revealed. But that's all gonna be unwound as the story comes towards its conclusion. There's more to learn, I mean, they had to go find Girard right now, so some pieces will be found then, I'm sure.

Though note, he'll still be paranoid. He'll just seem a little less so.

[fergo]

Thanks Phantasm :smallcool:.

[Fenice]

I think you've forgotten someone. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

Unless, you know, you mean a major character...
Well, not necessarily a major character. But nameless ones don't count. :smallbiggrin:
Thanks for the reminder though.

(I guess Nale could be bi as well. I'm a shapechanger, it's not like we never tried...)



Even without romantic relationship with Girard, I guess Kraagor could indeed be gay, and both Lirian and Serini could be his f@g hags. In his few appearences, Kraagor seems to interact only with these girls. :smallamused:

[MReav]

snip

I prefer the term "platonic harem".

[rgrekejin]

Well, not necessarily a major character. But nameless ones don't count. :smallbiggrin:

Well, he may get one yet. Don't forget that there's a forthcoming Backer's PDF.

[Mikhailangelo]

I can't help but feel that a lot of people in fandoms (any fandoms) need to read this definition. Seriously, it was bad enough with the Thanh/Niu thing. Why must people assume that any serious grief on a part of a character stems from a romantic interest? Are "just friends" incapable of sorrow? :smallmad:

I don't really have any concrete objections to this theory, but is it so hard to believe that Girard's grudge stems from the fact that he and Kraagor were just good buddies?

Well, yeah, that really. If Girard and Kraegor were lovers that's all well and good, I see no particular issue with the theory - It'll be nice, if anything, that a romantic relationship began even through such a trying experience. However, I do think people are far too likely to assume 'SEX'! As soon as strong emotions are involved. a platonic relationship between the two could give rise to such emotion just as easily, in my view.

[Fish]

There's about as much evidence that Girard was having an affair with Soon's wife, or that Crystal was in live with Bozzok.

[mightycleric]

I think there is a certain relationship beyond just friendship that especially linked Kraagor and Girard, but I don't think it was that, I think it was simply alignment, and here is why. Girard was a practiced illusionist and an incredible liar. He was best at the arts of deception. Kraagor, as a barbarian, was skilled at battle prowess, but did so through recklessness and constantly losing control and just giving in to rage and emotion. Both of these are issues for a Paladin.

For a Lawful Good character in general, and especially a Paladin, two of the worst things are lies/deceit, and loss of control (especially self-control/discipline). Soon, as a Lawful character, would constantly be at philosophical odds with Girard and Kraagor, and they probably almost never agreed on what style to use. The fact that, unlike the Order of the Stick, this group had multiple Type A personalities (with Girard and Soon probably being the chief two), this would be a big struggle anyway.

As a result, since Soon then orders the Gate sealed while Kraagor is still there, Girard, who is used to deceptions and tricks (and thus looks for them everywhere), sees this as Soon seizing an opportunity to dispose of one of the two characters who most annoys him. Since Girard is the other, this obviously makes him more suspicious of Soon, and figures that Soon will eventually try to dispose of him, as well (because Soon only trusts those who are Lawful Good with the Gates).

Oh, and one more thing that probably plays into this is the fact that, while the rest of the Order of the Scribble was probably growing closer together as a group, and grew to care about each other, Soon's actions at the end seem to indicate (especially to Girard, who would most look for treachery) that he just saw the group as means to an end, and only cared about himself, his code, and his lost wife, not the group.

I actually think that in this instance, to make it something that would be taken as a major political statement in the comic would invite more fighting instead of promote what appears to be the main message about how it is only through working together that such great things can be accomplished, and that the reason that the Gates are now in so much peril is not because of how powerful Xykon is, but because of how petty most of the members of the Order of the Scribble became (since any one of them was close to a match for Xykon as is, and as a team they would have mopped the floor with him).

I think, especially based on the rules of the forums, which are about trying to promote peaceful and not real world political/religious discussion, that it just isn't likely to happen, since such a strong theme like that would almost certainly beget such discussion (and the comics are discussed on the forums).

I won't even rule out a possible relationship between Kraagor and Girard (though I don't see any evidence for that), but I don't think there is any way that if there is one, there is also a theme of Soon being intolerant of it. I really think it just boils down to Soon disliking the way Kraagor and Girard did things, and thus not caring as much when Kraagor died, and Girard seeing that as Soon wanting to get rid of those who don't do things his way, and thus Girard sees Soon as a threat who doesn't truly care about anybody else.

[ManuelSacha]

"This is not a slash fanfic..."

...followed by slash pairing talk.

[Bastian Weaver]

"This is not a slash fanfic..."

...followed by slash pairing talk.

Exactly.
And no. Just no. Until we see Hailey's Latent Bisexuality chatting with Girard's and Kraagor's, nothing like this ever happened.

[The Extinguisher]

Everyone except Soon. :smallwink:

I never said that. Hence all the drama.


There's about as much evidence that Girard was having an affair with Soon's wife, or that Crystal was in live with Bozzok.

Shipping doesn't need evidence, it only needs a willingness to disallow the counter-evidence.

[ti'esar]

"This is not a slash fanfic..."

...followed by slash pairing talk.

Hey, let's be fair - there's not a word of fanfiction written in this thread.

Anyway, just in case I haven't made my position on the theory clear:

There is absolutely no evidence of a relationship between Girard and Kraagor. There's no evidence against it either, but I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one.
There is evidence against the "Soon as homophobe" part of the theory, and it's vaguely insulting to boot.
The typical 'shipper mindset of viewing any strong emotion as prompted by romantic feeling is also vaguely insulting, and I'm getting rather tired of its presence on these forums.