(3.X) Which is better for AC, Insight or sacred/profane?

[DracoDei]

Which are harder to come by/more powerful +3 or greater sacred/profane bonuses to armor class, or numerically equal insight bonuses to armor class? How would Luck bonuses rank relative to the above?
(The DMG item creation guidelines would put them all at the same GP value, although I am asking for the purposes of a class, not a magic item).

[Varil]

I think insight is most common, then sacred/profane, then luck...but maybe not. They're all pretty rare, and I'm not about to go hunting to find examples.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Incarnum and Psionic powers can net you the insight bonuses. Sacred/Profane are possible via some cleric spells in SpC. Luck is, well, I know of the Luckblade but not much else.

[DracoDei]

Incarnum and Psionic powers can net you the insight bonuses. Sacred/Profane are possible via some cleric spells in SpC. Luck is, well, I know of the Luckblade but not much else.
Just checked the 3.5 SRD via www.d20srd.org. Luck Blade gives a bonus to saving throws, not AC. Actually, that seems true for a Luckstone too, so luck bonuses may not apply to AC.

I don't particularly care about the sources per se.

I have a base class I am tweaking. It gets bonuses to AC that it can share with allies. These bonuses start out as Deflection, then at later levels one gets more options. Wondering what order to put the added options in so they will be approximately from most common to rarest.

[Slipperychicken]

I have a base class I am tweaking. It gets bonuses to AC that it can share with allies. These bonuses start out as Deflection, then at later levels one gets more options. Wondering what order to put the added options in so they will be approximately from most common to rarest.

If you want the bonus to stack with a lot of things, you could always make it Untyped.

[DracoDei]

If you want the bonus to stack with a lot of things, you could always make it Untyped.
Kinda thought of that.
Maybe at 18+ class levels (or as a feat that requires 15 to 21 class levels). Otherwise it defeats the whole point of having it scale with levels.

[Jasdoif]

Defensive precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm) is a 1st-level power that can grant an insight bonus to both AC and saves. Augmented to spend 7 power points, it would give a +3 bonus.

[ericgrau]

Rarest would be best because it's hardest to get elsewhere. I'd say profane > sacred > luck > insight > deflection.

[Coidzor]

Kinda thought of that.
Maybe at 18+ class levels (or as a feat that requires 15 to 21 class levels). Otherwise it defeats the whole point of having it scale with levels.

:smallconfused: Untyped bonuses that scale with level are just fine. In fact, they're more desirable.

[DracoDei]

:smallconfused: Untyped bonuses that scale with level are just fine. In fact, they're more desirable.
Re: "the numbers should scale"
Yep, there was never any question of that. The class gets light armor proficiency, Charisma Mod+(level dependent bonus) to AC. The last part is what we are talking about here. It scales with both Charisma and class level.

Re: the TYPE of the bonus should start out as "untyped"
Untyped bonuses are more desirable for the PLAYER when they are available, and thus not always the most desirable to make freely available when balancing homebrew.

[ericgrau]

Well once you hit luck it might as well be untyped. Luck is really rare.

Scaling untyped can be fine as long as you remember that, unlike other scaling bonuses, it's actually getting better relative to the monsters and not merely keeping up. Thus a +4 is really high since it might make anyone that was hard to hit before virtually unhittable. I might cap the ability at +4, and then only assuming the class is missing other things to make up for it and assuming it's a standard action to activate. Kind of like reverse bardic music. It's true that bardic music is morale, but morale is rare enough that allies will only have a +0 to +2 anyway. And effectively reducing enemy attack bonus is a little worse than improving ally attack bonus since you can't control what type of enemies you face.

The final thing to remember with AC is that you really can easily keep up with monster attack bonus, it's a trivial numbers exercise to prove which I've done to death, but only if PCs receive proper wealth by level. Don't fall into the trap of compensating for a problem that doesn't exist or that you created with low WBL or that came from giving out too many custom non-AC items in the treasure.

Besides going untyped you might, like the bard, pick a single rare bonus type and stick with that. It'd only be a hair worse.

[dextercorvia]

Recitation gives a +2 or +3 Luck bonus to AC. That's the only one that I know of.

Edit: There is also Nightstalker's Transformation, but that isn't actually a spell. That is a nerf disguised as a spell.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Edit: There is also Nightstalker's Transformation, but that isn't actually a spell. That is a nerf disguised as a spell.

It's useful for psionic characters and other people who otherwise don't cast spells.:smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

It's useful for psionic characters and other people who otherwise don't cast spells.:smalltongue:

Who also can UMD a fifth level scroll? It is personal range.

[Person_Man]

I'm of the opinion that you should type your bonuses based on your intended play style and fluff. If it's from a divine, use Sacred/Profane, because you don't want a Cleric/Whatever stacking up a bunch of bonuses and making it unhittable. If it's psionic or incarnum related, then it should be Insight. Luck was an attempt to make an equivilent for Skill Monkey's and raise them up, but I'm not familiar with any non-homebrew work that could seriously abuse Luck bonuses. If it's Tier 4 or lower, then make it untyped.

[DracoDei]

I'm of the opinion that you should type your bonuses based on your intended play style and fluff. If it's from a divine,
It is.

use Sacred/Profane, because you don't want a Cleric/Whatever stacking up a bunch of bonuses and making it unhittable.
...Both Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) and Shield of Faith (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOfFaith.htm) grant deflection bonus.* I already have a note to GMs not to allow my class in Gesalt, and since I already have a way of discouraging one level dips into my class for AC, that takes care of half of that problem. Going Grace-Gift 12**/Cleric 1/Grace-Gift X is not an issue since this is the party member that everybody buffs GLADLY if they are RPing a Wisdom score above 12, and I hear that AC becomes slightly less meaningful at those levels anyway in normal play.

*Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm) gives an Enhancement bonus, so that is pretty much irrelevant since enhancement bonuses make NO sense in this case.
**The minimum level of Grace-Gift to get an option that ISN'T Deflection.

tl;dr I am pretty certain I want to start with Deflection bonuses. As for what comes next... Sacred/Profane

If it's Tier 4 or lower, then make it untyped.
I am aiming for something... more powerful than most Tier 4s.


The class concept I am working with here is... really odd. Think "Defender (Buffer)"... crossed with "Defender(Tank)"... and a small splash of "Defender"... and then with a few things to do that make it useful outside of combat.

Their offense is equivalent to a commoner, EXCEPT when making some types of AoOs, at which point, at 3rd level or higher, they start being as skilled(or more so) as a paladin, but without the per-day or alignment limits on their smite.

All of which to say that being really hard to hit is actually PERHAPS part of the picture.

For anyone who still needs a more specific idea see The Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229090).

[DracoDei]

Somehow missed this earlier:

Well once you hit luck it might as well be untyped. Luck is really rare.
Yeah, I was considering adding luck, but there isn't any real reason to.


Scaling untyped can be fine as long as you remember that, unlike other scaling bonuses, it's actually getting better relative to the monsters and not merely keeping up. Thus a +4 is really high since it might make anyone that was hard to hit before virtually unhittable. I might cap the ability at +4, and then only assuming the class is missing other things to make up for it and assuming it's a standard action to activate. Kind of like reverse bardic music. It's true that bardic music is morale, but morale is rare enough that allies will only have a +0 to +2 anyway. And effectively reducing enemy attack bonus is a little worse than improving ally attack bonus since you can't control what type of enemies you face.Eh, the numbers have to be a bit bigger than that for what I have in mind.


The final thing to remember with AC is that you really can easily keep up with monster attack bonus, it's a trivial numbers exercise to prove which I've done to death, but only if PCs receive proper wealth by level.
Huh... I have heard the opposite regarding "high levels"... not sure if that means 12+ or 15+ or 17+ or what...
Seems there is a split of opinions on that subject.
Anyway, I can honestly say that I have good reason to suspect that this class should have better AC than anything in core(Well, maybe a cleric or wizard could be optimized to a better AC for all I know). That is literally the standard I am going by. It wasn't something I was 100% sure about (I originally had then with no armor proficiencies, but I gave them a warlock's ability to use light armor). Part of the problem is that I got all of ONE person giving me feedback on the class, and he was saying the bonuses should numerically scale faster. That would have actually been kinda hax due to the way the class works, so I gave them light armor instead.

Don't fall into the trap of compensating for a problem that doesn't exist or that you created with low WBL or that came from giving out too many custom non-AC items in the treasure.

Besides going untyped you might, like the bard, pick a single rare bonus type and stick with that. It'd only be a hair worse.
...I would need a LOT of convincing to go this route. I like me my scaling selection of bonus types to pick from,

[Coidzor]

Re: "the numbers should scale"
Yep, there was never any question of that. The class gets light armor proficiency, Charisma Mod+(level dependent bonus) to AC. The last part is what we are talking about here. It scales with both Charisma and class level.

Re: the TYPE of the bonus should start out as "untyped"
Untyped bonuses are more desirable for the PLAYER when they are available, and thus not always the most desirable to make freely available when balancing homebrew.

Well, you just asked for better in your OP. And if it stacks with everything and doesn't preclude other armor bonuses, then you don't really have to worry about making it very big to make it relevant. :smalltongue:

And if it precludes getting AC bonuses from another source, then you have the headache of how much better to make it or if it should be on par or if it should be slightly below par of what they could buy in order to offset freeing up that wealth even if it's not as much of a bonus..... Could be a major headache, though Sacred and Profane run into it a lot less, and, as said, Luck might as well be untyped...

[DracoDei]

Well, you just asked for better in your OP. And if it stacks with everything and doesn't preclude other armor bonuses, then you don't really have to worry about making it very big to make it relevant. :smalltongue:

And if it precludes getting AC bonuses from another source, then you have the headache of how much better to make it or if it should be on par or if it should be slightly below par of what they could buy in order to offset freeing up that wealth even if it's not as much of a bonus..... Could be a major headache, though Sacred and Profane run into it a lot less, and, as said, Luck might as well be untyped...
That sort of thing is... more complicated in this case than I suspect you guess. In fact it is so complicated that I am not even going to try to mess with it until I get some play-test data.

My MAJOR goal here was to figure out if they should get access to Sacred/Profane first, or to Insight first. IE should the progression go Deflection->Insight->Sacred/Profane or if it should go Deflection->Sacred/Profane->Insight. There was a secondary question about how I would work in Luck if I should take it into my head to try adding that to the progression.

P.S. The only reason I specified +3 or better was to weed out any minor +1 or +2 items or side-benefits of multi-faceted spells. This is appropriate since the question I am asking currently only applies at character levels 12 and higher, and the magnitude of the bonus is equal to the monk's but charisma based. The situation is complicated in that the bonus can be GIVEN AWAY to other party members, thus EVERYONE's defensive buffs and equipment matters, not just the Grace-Gift's.

[Chronos]

Both things you've heard about AC are true. You can make it really useful at high levels, if you invest really seriously into it. If you're not going for as high a level of optimization on AC, though, a mediocre investment won't do much good at all, and you're much better off with other forms of defense.

[DracoDei]

Both things you've heard about AC are true. You can make it really useful at high levels, if you invest really seriously into it. If you're not going for as high a level of optimization on AC, though, a mediocre investment won't do much good at all, and you're much better off with other forms of defense.
Ah! I see!

That reminds me... I have no clue how one would actually kit out a Grace-Gift... maybe I should make that a separate thread? If so, I wonder what level(s) would be the most indicative? Or would that be asking too much?