When your players crush your desire to DM.

[ScrambledBrains]

So...I recently found out that 2 of my 5 players believe my DMing to be substandard(Learned from one of the remaining three players.). I had thought I was doing a good job, but apparently not...I won't be able to get specifics on what I'm doing wrong till Friday night, but I just posted this to vent, as well as give others a place to vent.

DMs, have your players ever made you wanna quit DMing for them?

[Fatebreaker]

To be fair, three of your five players do not believe your DMing to be substandard.

By all means, find out what the two other players aren't happy with, but don't be discouraged. This is an awesome opportunity to go from most of my players enjoy my DMing to all of my players enjoy my DMing.

[ScrambledBrains]

To be fair, three of your five players do not believe your DMing to be substandard.

By all means, find out what the two other players aren't happy with, but don't be discouraged. This is an awesome opportunity to go from most of my players enjoy my DMing to all of my players enjoy my DMing.

True. That is reassuring. But I'm also a little dissapointed in my DMing, in a way. I don't have time to plan anything out, due to my college classes, and I'm afraid(Though I have no proof for or against this.) that I'm railroading them.

[Madara]

Listen, that's the flaw with the system. We're human, and we can only make mistakes, however, you're far better than a per-programmed game will ever be. Everyone has a different style of play with DnD, and you can't always cater to everyone. Just do your best, and try to tweak things occasionally to keep improving.

:smallbiggrin:

[NOhara24]

, and I'm afraid(Though I have no proof for or against this.) that I'm railroading them.

All DMing in and of itself is railroading. Players only call it railroading when they don't like where the rails are going.

[ScrambledBrains]

Listen, that's the flaw with the system. We're human, and we can only make mistakes, however, you're far better than a per-programmed game will ever be. Everyone has a different style of play with DnD, and you can't always cater to everyone. Just do your best, and try to tweak things occasionally to keep improving.

:smallbiggrin:

True. I hope to improve, but with my limited time, I improve slowly.


All DMing in and of itself is railroading. Players only call it railroading when they don't like where the rails are going.

Good point.

[Taelas]

Railroading is only really a problem when it gets noticed. :smallamused:

By the players, that is. You should know yourself. Railroading is pretty simple. When you decide that something happens, could something the players did before--a different choice, for example--have prevented that outcome?

If the answer to that question is 'no', then yes, you are railroading. But as I said, that is not always a bad thing. Most DMs sprinkle some amount of railroading into their gaming style, whether they realize it or not. For instance, if you want the players to be ambushed because you want to introduce a plot hook, and nothing the players do can avoid that ambush, then you're railroading. Say they can go down path A, B, or C (which is doubling back on their own trail). No matter which path they choose, after a few hours, the ambush happens. As long as the players aren't aware that the ambush would happen regardless of which road they went down, nothing untoward has happened. (Even if they realize it, it's a very minor thing, and unlikely to upset anyone.)


All DMing in and of itself is railroading. Players only call it railroading when they don't like where the rails are going.

This is not even close to true. There are sandbox-style games where the players can go wild and the DM never forces anything. I'm not saying they are good games, mind you, but they exist.

Also, most railroading tends to be regarding small stuff, such as introducing plot hooks (which the players are free to bite on or ignore). Once it becomes obvious, it tends to become a problem.

[Quirken]

DMing is an art and people will have different tastes. While they may claim they think your DMing is "substandard," they're evidently coming back for more.

That may mean they're using hyperbole (exaggerating because they want attention) or that they just think you're fun to hang out with but not the best DM. Which gives you time to adapt if necessary.

In any case, DMing is never a 'fixed' thing. You have to adapt to your players, and they have to adapt to you. It's that organic aspect that makes every campaign feel so different.

And when it comes to railroading... sometimes not planning a whole lot brings you to interesting places.

In one of my own campaigns, they got sent to the Elemental Plane of Bacon (where everything was bacon-themed. There was no good and no evil, only bacon. Paladin's Smite Evil became Smite Bacon. Detect evil became detect bacon. Huge buff for Paladin against non-neutral, but led to some... unfortunate incidents. On any other plane, he might have lost his Paladin abilities, but since he was led astray by thinking he was detecting evil, it wasn't his fault)

They met obese doppelgangers of themselves, who they proceeded to slaughter for no apparent reason. None of that hilarious nonsense would have happened if I'd planned ahead, and I think it was that unpredictable flavor that kept the campaign going despite my newbie status as DM.

[NekoJoker]

As has been said before, you must not be discouraged, this is a chance to look at things from a diffferent perspective, try to recount your last few sessions inside your head, try to put yourself in the player's skin... would you have fun with the way you DM'ed last time? what's there to improve?

Talk to your players, see if you can find what's bothering them and work to improve.

And another piece of advice, try to see if you can get any of those two players to Dm a one shot of sorts, participate as a player. That will give you a new insight, being a DM and a Player are fundamentally different things, if you can spend some time on the other side of the table, you may find something you are lacking, or improve on what you ae already god at

Once again, don't be discouraged.

[ScrambledBrains]

@all^.

Thank you for your words of inspiration and wisdom. I feel I should say that I am not discouraged, just nervous and worried about my performance. But this IS my first time DMing, so I suppose I'll learn and grow. :smallsmile:

Also, NekoJoker, can I just say I love your signature ToB vs. Core Castlevania thing? :smallbiggrin:

[Madara]

And another piece of advice, try to see if you can get any of those two players to Dm a one shot of sorts, participate as a player. That will give you a new insight, being a DM and a Player are fundamentally different things, if you can spend some time on the other side of the table, you may find something you are lacking, or improve on what you are already good at



This exactly. I made my most promising player try DMing, once. It was...amusing. I felt bad for him, but it did three things.
1) Allowed him to understand the other side of the table, and now he can give me better critique.

2) Gave me a confidence boost, to see how much difference there was between his first time, and my experience.

3) I finally got to play a character! :smallsmile:

[Hylas]

I'll give some examples of three different DMs I've played with.

One DM would make dungeons that have multiple corridors all going in a circle. Then the final boss would be down a secret corridor that requires a DC30 search check at one specific location in a nondescript location to find. If we don't find it we can't continue, but he hasn't planned anything else for us that evening. Eventually he just says "okay, you find this passage." Is that railroading? You bet! Is it fun? Not really. There's lots of ways he could have improved the dungeon.

Another DM would make 1 session long dungeons for us to crawl through where we'd always level up at the end of. We'd start our sessions being pointed in a direction and we'd play along because how the adventure starts isn't always important. Our latest adventure has us going to a castle that can fly through the astral plane and we're trying to fix it. Eventually, against the GM's original plan, we allied with a red dragon rather than killing his minions who claim ownership of the castle. Is it railroading? Yeah, he had the whole adventure planned out. However the players get to choose the details, which makes it fun. His next adventure had to be changed because we "messed it up." :smallwink:

The third DM has more experience DMing and has been working on his own setting for longer than I've been alive. He has this planned out world where NPCs will act on what information they have, rather than what the GM has, and people do things for a reason, making the players feel like they're part of a larger story (it's in GURPS, so we're not superheroes). He'll start up a mystery plot and we'll solve it, but he does it so seamlessly that it feels like "of course these things were always here." But even if we get up and decide we're heading south even though the plot is leading us west at random then there will be interesting things happening there, and we can interact however we please. Is he railroading? Maybe, I'm not sure, but we get to choose which railroad if he is, and like the DM above, we're picking how things happen. Plus, he doesn't always plan out the "right" outcome, sometimes he just picks out things that are going on and we decide what to do with it.

Me? I kinda pick an adventure for the players to do, because I try to pick cooperative people to DM for. I'll think of situations and as a contingency try to have a solution that I can pull out. For example, one time the players got captured and put into an old prison that bandits had. Eventually, if the players didn't figure anything out, I would have monsters from another part of the ruins come attack the bandits, the guard would be killed, and his key falls within reach of the party rogue. Although the players did eventually figure a way out themselves, I like to have backup plans.

So to sum it up, maybe try putting the players in situations where you don't make a single solution that you pick ahead of time.

DMing is hard and the only way to get better at it is to do more.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I have stopped a game midway through a champagne before, because a player that could not see they was going to kill another player. I warned 3 times that it would not be a good idea, but he did it anyway and i informed the other player he had died.
By the end of the session the player that killed the other was also dead (by mob justice), i had to rule that because of the actions of the player that no one in the area was going to join their group.

I have played games that this person has ran, he cant run a game in the confines of the setting.

[Dsurion]

I have stopped a game midway through a champagne beforeThat is a waste of good alcohol.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

That is a waste of good alcohol.

i like drinking as i run games

[Gnome Alone]

In one of my own campaigns, they got sent to the Elemental Plane of Bacon (where everything was bacon-themed. There was no good and no evil, only bacon. Paladin's Smite Evil became Smite Bacon. Detect evil became detect bacon. Huge buff for Paladin against non-neutral, but led to some... unfortunate incidents. On any other plane, he might have lost his Paladin abilities, but since he was led astray by thinking he was detecting evil, it wasn't his fault)

They met obese doppelgangers of themselves, who they proceeded to slaughter for no apparent reason.

This is like the greatest post that ever lived. +1 trillion awesome points.

[TypoNinja]

This exactly. I made my most promising player try DMing, once. It was...amusing. I felt bad for him, but it did three things.
1) Allowed him to understand the other side of the table, and now he can give me better critique.

2) Gave me a confidence boost, to see how much difference there was between his first time, and my experience.

3) I finally got to play a character! :smallsmile:

This is pretty much the exact sequence of events that got me started DMing. I was the chosen player by my DM :D

So now we rotate and everybody gets to play.

[Quirken]

This is like the greatest post that ever lived. +1 trillion awesome points.

Pretty much the only planning on that was adding a bacon wagon, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184831) because I thought that was hilarious. Then I gave it a trap, and everybody failed the save. From there... everything else was completely winged. Winging it does lead to sillier campaigns, but IMHO, more memorable ones.

Some of my favorite memories were when one of my friends had had some rum while DMing and we went to an entirely different continent than he had planned. All sorts of silly shenanigans resulted

[Dancingdeath]

I've DM'd a few sandbox style game sessions where the characters were either in a lull from the established plot points, or were looking for something random and fightish. I like to please. They go nuts and do something reckless and often illegal and we move on. Sometimes with town guards at their backs.

That's only ever a tangent. Good DMing takes a little planning to provide structure to the game. Without structure, I promise you NO ONE will be having fun. If the game did not require a bit of structure, it would not require a DM now would it?

[Malimar]

As a DM, I just aspire to basic competency. As long as I manage not to do anything that's just objectively stupid, I figure 90% of what any given player doesn't like is probably just a matter of stylistic differences.

I have the luxury of gaming with a college gaming group, so there are usually plenty of games for every player and plenty of players for every game (though usually only one or the other on any given week).

My policy is that players are free to join and leave my open game. If they don't like my DMing, I'm more than happy for them to grab a spot in a game run by some DM who either a.) just objectively better or b.) has a DM style that's better-suited to the tastes of the player in question.

The players who stick around are the ones who like my DMing style or who like me personally enough to disregard not liking my DMing style.

This way, ideally, nobody plays in a game with a DM whose style they don't like, and nobody has to DM for a player who doesn't like their style.

(In that light, I try to deliberately fill unfilled niches by simply being different from the other available DMs. Where most of the DMs in the group run lots of story-heavy more or less railroady campaigns, I run an often combat-heavy wide-open sandbox. I don't try to be better, because that may be beyond my power; I just try to be different and let the players decide which game they prefer to play.)

Is this is just an elaborate justification for a policy of lazy non-self-improvement? Maybe, yeah.

[Elric VIII]

Let me just say, at least you get some feedback from yoru players. My current players wanted to play a sandbox game (I questioned them all beforehand on the type of game they wanted, it was like pulling teeth). Fine, that's doable.

We started it in January 2012. I have been asking for character backgrounds since October 2010 (no, I'm not kidding), while we were finishing up the last campaign (a dungeon magazine adventure).

Currently, about 6 sessions in to the campaign I have one backstory that is a copy/paste of Grimm Shado and one that opens with the Fresh Prince of Bel Air song and involves Longcat. I have a vague idea of a third backstory that is a Half-Dragon Sorcerer that grew up in a cave that was looted by adventurers, but is also a library, in the desert; also, he taught himself the magic that he developed naturally due to his bloodline (I put this together from some nebulous ramblings).

The fourth player is currently playing a Bard/Crusader, but doesn't actually use her spells, music, or maneuvers. That's not the bad part. The bad part is that she wants to play a character that I made as a joke, just to be super complicated (Savage Bard/Warblade/Incarnate/Ur-Priest/Heartfire Fanner/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist). She has yet to correctly calculate her attack bonus or damage on her longsword, but she's going to try to play that character next session.

The fifth player just doesn't engage at all (he's playing a Swordsage/generic Expert as an assassin character). It's not a big deal, but I have the feeling that he's eventually going to get bored with the game, because mostly he just does what the other players tell him to do. [/rant]


Trust me, if I can keep it up, you can too. Just discuss what your players want to get out of the campaign and don't be afraid to ask them to tell you to point out the things they dislike as they are happening.

[Dimers]

So...I recently found out that 2 of my 5 players believe my DMing to be substandard(Learned from one of the remaining three players.). I had thought I was doing a good job, but apparently not...I won't be able to get specifics on what I'm doing wrong till Friday night...

It's possible that the player who told you was wrong about other people's opinions, or exaggerating, or trying to stir up something. Don't believe it unless you hear it from others' mouths. It's good to want to improve, but don't try to fix something that isn't broken. Ya know?

[shadow_archmagi]

First off, if only 40% of your players are complaining, then congrats! That's a 60% approval rating which means you're more popular with the people you govern than most presidents!

I wouldn't worry about it.

[zelsha]

i will say,you are a player,like everyone who come and play with you when you are the DM,talk with them,good critic are welcome

the 1st rule for me is: learn what kind of game your players REALLY want,then play with it, introduce character here and there,with different personality,politic,culture etc ,just don't show too quickly major plots ,think 1st and find out what they want

a good way is to find motivation/goal/backstory,why they wanted to be adventurer in the 1st place,you can already step forward from there,people who cant come up with a story,simply set them in a decent place (adventurer guild ,tavern ,recruited as city guards ,village champions*the best at what they do,or the only available talents in the village* ,nobility summon them for X reasons ,why not simply put them at the start of a dungeon for hack and slash game? LOTS of way to BRING the adventure to THEM,no the opposite

you want to start from there,and build the main plot SLOWLY,no ultimatum,but plan consequence for when they don't care much ,some guys like to see the world BURN,that fine too,think of it like a movie ,but simply add little quest there and there ,goblin there,orc there,why not centaur?if they BITE,well....WELL DONE! you can add there a few tools for story telling

someone who was kidnapped ,so they can actually win something from that person + information and status,have critical papers who tell a incoming crisis ,show that someone is *manipulating* the enemies ,make a little dungeon on the go ,nothing fancy just to have somewhere in there ,a item/creature pop for information,but OVERALL, show narrative skills,HEROES WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT GOING ON END UP DOING THINGS HERE AND THERE ,you don't want them to follow a TRACK,you just want to let them know that now ..they know ,good character don't leave people to die,neutral can do anything ,and evil can if they want,play the *i don't care* scene ,if that the case ,be sure to let them know information who let them get advantages,and you will see them happily go into the treasure room of your villains,or going to break those same main villains the easy job of doing bad things free

now,you can start to bring the main story in the game,just don't go all out too quickly,think about what will surprise them, like a villains they killed at some point,someone who was a good person all along was in fact the evil guy,or lol better ,make them do something again a villain just to make them learn that *villains* was NOT in fact the real bad guy ,more like a victim who was arrogant or simply desperate ,like a king who wanted to safe his little girl and learned the enemy was hiding in THAT village lol ,so you can bring politic etc or a even more powerful puppet master in game ,true evil creatures ,etc

the most memorable villains are rarely the strong(they just end up saying they are set like this) ,but the original one ,the one that surprise, and the one people did not take for a treat at 1st,did not take seriously,surprise them ,not only with encounter ,but with memorable character ,originality is one of the tools you need to work on ,as improvisation,narrative skills ,game knowledge ,perception of what the players want really VS what they are saying

so in the end,you ,sir ,got the best position on the table,the one for the creative artist ;)

[lord pringle]

My friends have made me want to stop several times, but they (being the awesome people they are) have always helped me get better, by doing things like running a crazy awesome star wars one-shot and making me run savage tide.

[Heatwizard]

So...

You're taking college classes and don't have enough time between them to hammer out the prep work you'd like to do, you're brand new to the DM chair, and only 2/5 of your players are expressing concern? I've heard of much worse starts.

[panaikhan]

The only time I've considered quitting for good, was when I heard a paraphrase of the classic
"Enough flavour text, how much XP for the guy on the motorcycle?"

I took a break, and let one of the others DM for a while.

[Eisirt]

Have a peek in this PDF, it can be very helpful.


http://www.demonoid.me/files/details/2841628/5993256/

[killem2]

Unless someone else was saying they wanted to be the dm, they can straight STFU.

Harsh? Not really, my party gets what they get, because I don't really like DMing but it has to be done so I do my best we can.

They don't like it they can be the dm. lol

Don't take it so hard man.

[shadow_archmagi]

Have a peek in this PDF, it can be very helpful.


http://www.demonoid.me/files/details/2841628/5993256/

I can't help but notice that that is, in fact, an .exe file, not a .pdf

Also, isn't that an actual book that real people pay money for?

[Bonzai]

I was discouraged a little the last time I DM'd. I am the least experienced in my group, but wanted to tow my share and volunteered to take a turn at DM'ing. Things went well till about the mid/upper teens. The problem was that I felt like I wasn't able to challenge them. I am not a DM who's mission is to kill his party or make life hell for them. I create a setting and a series of plot hooks, and the campaign is what it is. No tailoring... I try to be fair and let things happen organicly. Being an experienced group, the party was optimized, versitle, and very capable. We had a wizard/Psion theurge that was soley devoted to problem solving. If didn't have a solution to a problem, a psychic reformation or alarcious cogitation latter and he would. We had a beguiler/guild mage/fatespinner. Handled the rogue bits, battle field control, and took bad/good luck out of the equasion with re-rolls. For damage we had a warmage and a gattling gun archer/ranger that the party devoted some resources toward upping his damage potential further.

It was a tough nut to crack. I didn't want to kill any of them, but at the same time it got to a point where I would almost have to to pose a threat. I was worried that I wasn't challenging or engaging enough, but was worried about escalating things further for fear of wiping them out. I spoke to my players about this and they gave me some great advice. They told me that it didn't matter that each session wasn't a skin of their teeth, nail biting adventure. That they were having fun, and I was letting their characters do what they were made to do. I was fair, no rail roading, and it was enjoyable to them. That campaign tought me a lot, as did my players.

So bottom line... talk to your players. Find out the good and the bad. It can only help you become better.

[Slipperychicken]

So...I recently found out that 2 of my 5 players believe my DMing to be substandard(Learned from one of the remaining three players.)

I suggest asking people's opinions right after the session ends, because then it's fresh in their minds. Leave a few minutes at the end to go around the table to ask questions (and answer them yourself) like:

"What did you enjoy most?"
"What did you enjoy least?"
"Who, other than yourself, did you think was doing the best RP? Why do you think this is?"
"Do you have any comments or suggestions on my DMing style?"
"Is there anything you think yourself, or anyone else, could do to improve as a player?"

Then write down responses, and you can figure out what you're doing well, and what you can improve on and how.

[Sturmcrow]

So...I recently found out that 2 of my 5 players believe my DMing to be substandard(Learned from one of the remaining three players.). I had thought I was doing a good job, but apparently not...I won't be able to get specifics on what I'm doing wrong till Friday night, but I just posted this to vent, as well as give others a place to vent.

DMs, have your players ever made you wanna quit DMing for them?

I am pretty sure any DM that has run games for more than a year has had players that make them want to quit.

[Sir_Mopalot]

Have a peek in this PDF, it can be very helpful.


{EDIT}Pre-scrubbed{EDIT}

Yeah, I'd take that down, I believe the mods look fairly harshly on that kind of thing.

[Canarr]

It's possible that the player who told you was wrong about other people's opinions, or exaggerating, or trying to stir up something. Don't believe it unless you hear it from others' mouths. It's good to want to improve, but don't try to fix something that isn't broken. Ya know?

This. There's always a loss in tone or content when one person reports another person's opinion. Doesn't even have to be intentional, it just happens.

John has an opinion. He tries to communicate it to Jack, with a degree of success depending on his own ability to express himself, and Jack's ability to understand him. Once Jack then tries to pass John's opinion on to you, his own ability (or lack thereof) to express himself adds to the confusion.

Therefore: talk to the supposedly dissatisfied players, and get their opinion directly from them. Then, take it from there.

[Quirken]

This. There's always a loss in tone or content when one person reports another person's opinion. Doesn't even have to be intentional, it just happens.

John has an opinion. He tries to communicate it to Jack, with a degree of success depending on his own ability to express himself, and Jack's ability to understand him. Once Jack then tries to pass John's opinion on to you, his own ability (or lack thereof) to express himself adds to the confusion.

Therefore: talk to the supposedly dissatisfied players, and get their opinion directly from them. Then, take it from there.

Sounds like Jack fumbled a sense motive check... That said, that's good advice!

[Phaederkiel]

I once had a player (when I was DMing my second session) who was so dominating, ruleslawyering and semi-cheating, I nearly gave up. What I gave up was inviting him to games again.

From the players side: we had a dm we didn't like, we left.

So, if you have players, you are liked. Even by the guys who express concern.

some tips to quickly improve:

How much flavor do you give? too much is sleep inducing, but most people tend to give to less. if I ever again open a door to find a square 20x30 room, i'll refuse to enter...

Put Npcs in there the players care about. Some glorious bastards. For example, I had a lawful good ghost guarding a tomb. But dying had given him a bit of perspective about lawful...he was kind of a practical joker, put some mean riddles in his tomb and challenged them to a fight. "do not worry, if I kill you, i'll keep your souls here as company". After he won he gave them semi-useful, partly cursed items. They loved him, and we all had a BLAST.

Mix Combat encounters with Role playing. That way nothing gets old.

If you put riddles in, make sure that they make sense in a setting. Twisted ghost guardian putting riddles in? Good. Random riddle in wilderness dungeon? That destroys suspension of disbelief.

Last but not least: Rail are not a bad thing. Last session my players had to decide between many possible courses of action and where so afraid of doing anything wrong, they took 4 hours (i am notte kiddyinge ye!) to reach a decision. I learned a hard lession that session :=

[Ranting Fool]

Last but not least: Rail are not a bad thing. Last session my players had to decide between many possible courses of action and where so afraid of doing anything wrong, they took 4 hours (i am notte kiddyinge ye!) to reach a decision. I learned a hard lession that session :=

I strongly agree :smallsmile: I've always tried to run a rather "Sandbox" style campaign but there are always times the players will sit and plan/argue for hours where a small nudge from an NPC could keep things moving along.

Gentle guidance rather than forceful leading :smallcool:

[Dsurion]

How much flavor do you give? too much is sleep inducing, but most people tend to give to less. if I ever again open a door to find a square 20x30 room, i'll refuse to enter...I believe this is geometrically impossible.

[nedz]

I believe this is geometrically impossible.

Nope - meerly non euclidean.

[Phaederkiel]

oops... okay, would the correct word be rectangle?

[nedz]

oops... okay, would the correct word be rectangle?

Square, Rectangle, ..., its all affine to me.

[Myou]

Square, Rectangle, ..., its all affine to me.

That was terrible. :smalltongue:

[Kavurcen]

Yesterday I DM'd for my group. Nobody was doing a long-running campaign at the moment so I was asked to run everybody through something short, a one-night campaign. I found this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Riddle.pdf) and decided it would be fun.

Long story short, with people arriving to play at 3 and leaving at 10, we were unable to finish it. Some highlights of the afternoon were:


- Nobody could get the initial riddle. And I mean nobody, not even close. The best they arrived at was "okay, it's something canine".

- The party taking a break to google the definition of "eliminate".

- The party's dirge singer casting blindness and deafness on the deliberately planted, unthreatening kobold informant, so not only could he not be questioned, but he couldn't even run home.

- The party short both a ranger and a kobold informant, survival checks are attempted to track the kobold war party. The first of the party's highest rolls, a 17, fails to make the 18 DC. The party waits 24 hours and tries again. This time an 18. Another 24 hours, a 19. By this point I was near tears and decided that the kobold could instinctively realize they wanted directions to his war party's camp.

- A party member attempting to attack a set of Elven Chain. Yeah, exactly as it sounds. One party member is able to pull off a DC32 search check, I declare they find a suit of elven chain in a hidden compartment, and from the other side of the table comes a dead serious and matter-of-fact "I charge and attack!".

[Talakeal]

I believe this is geometrically impossible.

Not if you are playing Call of Cthulhu.

[Zombulian]

Yesterday I DM'd for my group. Nobody was doing a long-running campaign at the moment so I was asked to run everybody through something short, a one-night campaign. I found this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Riddle.pdf) and decided it would be fun.

Long story short, with people arriving to play at 3 and leaving at 10, we were unable to finish it. Some highlights of the afternoon were:


- Nobody could get the initial riddle. And I mean nobody, not even close. The best they arrived at was "okay, it's something canine".

- The party taking a break to google the definition of "eliminate".

- The party's dirge singer casting blindness and deafness on the deliberately planted, unthreatening kobold informant, so not only could he not be questioned, but he couldn't even run home.

- The party short both a ranger and a kobold informant, survival checks are attempted to track the kobold war party. The first of the party's highest rolls, a 17, fails to make the 18 DC. The party waits 24 hours and tries again. This time an 18. Another 24 hours, a 19. By this point I was near tears and decided that the kobold could instinctively realize they wanted directions to his war party's camp.

- A party member attempting to attack a set of Elven Chain. Yeah, exactly as it sounds. One party member is able to pull off a DC32 search check, I declare they find a suit of elven chain in a hidden compartment, and from the other side of the table comes a dead serious and matter-of-fact "I charge and attack!".

The worst part of this story? It was one of our best and most focused days. Ever.

Edit: and THIS “What is half of dragon,
but has not a wyrmling’s strength?
What is half of canine,
but has not a mongrel’s length?
What is it that is of two halves,
but has but half to stand on?” was the all mighty and powerful riddle, that another party member and I had already heard so we weren't allowed to give the answer. It was painful.

[Dsurion]

Nope - meerly non euclidean.Foiled by non-euclidean geometry yet again!


Not if you are playing Call of Cthulhu.And Cthulhu in the same day :smallfrown:

[Elric VIII]

The worst part of this story? It was one of our best and most focused days. Ever.

Edit: and THIS “What is half of dragon,
but has not a wyrmling’s strength?
What is half of canine,
but has not a mongrel’s length?
What is it that is of two halves,
but has but half to stand on?” was the all mighty and powerful riddle, that another party member and I had already heard so we weren't allowed to give the answer. It was painful.

Maybe your players are too smart for their own good. In actually (German) folklore, a kobold is a mischievious spirit (similar to a bogart, pixie, or brownie).

[Zombulian]

Maybe your players are too smart for their own good. In actually (German) folklore, a kobold is a mischievious spirit (similar to a bogart, pixie, or brownie).

I dare you to spend a day with them and then say that again :smalltongue:

[Elric VIII]

I dare you to spend a day with them and then say that again :smalltongue:

They can't be worse than this, right?


Let me just say, at least you get some feedback from yoru players. My current players wanted to play a sandbox game (I questioned them all beforehand on the type of game they wanted, it was like pulling teeth). Fine, that's doable.

We started it in January 2012. I have been asking for character backgrounds since October 2010 (no, I'm not kidding), while we were finishing up the last campaign (a dungeon magazine adventure).

Currently, about 6 sessions in to the campaign I have one backstory that is a copy/paste of Grimm Shado and one that opens with the Fresh Prince of Bel Air song and involves Longcat. I have a vague idea of a third backstory that is a Half-Dragon Sorcerer that grew up in a cave that was looted by adventurers, but is also a library, in the desert; also, he taught himself the magic that he developed naturally due to his bloodline (I put this together from some nebulous ramblings).

The fourth player is currently playing a Bard/Crusader, but doesn't actually use her spells, music, or maneuvers. That's not the bad part. The bad part is that she wants to play a character that I made as a joke, just to be super complicated (Savage Bard/Warblade/Incarnate/Ur-Priest/Heartfire Fanner/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist). She has yet to correctly calculate her attack bonus or damage on her longsword, but she's going to try to play that character next session.

The fifth player just doesn't engage at all (he's playing a Swordsage/generic Expert as an assassin character). It's not a big deal, but I have the feeling that he's eventually going to get bored with the game, because mostly he just does what the other players tell him to do. [/rant]


Trust me, if I can keep it up, you can too. Just discuss what your players want to get out of the campaign and don't be afraid to ask them to tell you to point out the things they dislike as they are happening.

[Zombulian]

They can't be worse than this, right?



Well... they are actually about as bad as that. A quick example can be made in the fact that we have been playing for about a year and they still ask where to find BAB :smallsigh:.

[Sutremaine]

In actually (German) folklore, a kobold is a mischievious spirit (similar to a bogart, pixie, or brownie).
The answer to the riddle was 'kobold'?

*looks at the module*
Indeed. How does that break down? Kobolds aren't directly related to dragons (or are they? Guess you could break out the Knowledge checks on this one), are larger than the average mongrel (at least, what I think of as being a mongrel), and the last part I can't make sense of at all. Maybe half of a quadruped twice equals a biped?

To be honest, I thought it was a D&D-themed wordplay riddle. 'Dog' has half the letters in 'dragon', and dogs are weaker than wyrmlings. I can't imagine how painful this would be to DM without any 'Speak With DM' divination spells at the players' disposal, even with the option of the sphinx giving them the quest anyway.

[Elric VIII]

The answer to the riddle was 'kobold'?

*looks at the module*
Indeed. How does that break down? Kobolds aren't directly related to dragons (or are they? Guess you could break out the Knowledge checks on this one), are larger than the average mongrel (at least, what I think of as being a mongrel), and the last part I can't make sense of at all. Maybe half of a quadruped twice equals a biped?

To be honest, I thought it was a D&D-themed wordplay riddle. 'Dog' has half the letters in 'dragon', and dogs are weaker than wyrmlings. I can't imagine how painful this would be to DM without any 'Speak With DM' divination spells at the players' disposal, even with the option of the sphinx giving them the quest anyway.

Well, as per RotD, Kobolds have the Dragonblood subtype. So essentially, they are like mutts of the Dragon world (half canine). My first guess was a Pseudodragon (described as cat-like, small dragons), but I think I could have gotten to Kobold if I was actually in a campaign that featured this.

[Zombulian]

Well, as per RotD, Kobolds have the Dragonblood subtype. So essentially, they are like mutts of the Dragon world (half canine). My first guess was a Pseudodragon (described as cat-like, small dragons), but I think I could have gotten to Kobold if I was actually in a campaign that featured this.

Ah, well as someone who has looked at the Kobold entry a few times by now, the description does say "dog-like" in there somewhere. Also whenever I think of a small dragon-thingy, Kobold is the first thing to come to mind.