Tomb of Battle and Maneuvers

[Dancingdeath]

I'm looking to get some direction here.

First, I've never used them before and wanna get the rules straight.

Second, I'm applying it to a rogue/assassin build.

Finally, I'm liking the Blood In the Water stance and the Assassin's Stance. I'd like to maybe do something with those.

Ready........GO!!!!!!!!!

[HunterOfJello]

1. Read the book.
2. Come back when you have a question that you can't find the answer to.
3. Repeat
4. You have mastered ToB

[Dancingdeath]

1. Read the book.
2. Come back when you have a question that you can't find the answer to.
3. Repeat
4. You have mastered ToB

Well that's helpful. Any suggestions or tips though? Something that would be good for an assassin type build.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Resisting the urge to make various undead-related puns (it's the Tome of Battle, not the Tomb)...

Anyways, as you may not be aware, you can only use 1 stance at a time, and there's two ways of going about getting one.

1) take levels in an initiator class (for you, probably swordsage, as they get access to both Tiger Claw and Shadow Blade)

2) Take the Martial Study feat, then follow up with Martial Stance x2.

The first option is likely better, though, as the feat tax is non-existant and you'll get a +2 to your Will save.

[The-Mage-King]

First, TomE. Not TomB. One's a book, the other's a crypt. :smalltongue:


Now, what questions do you have for it? What to use as your class?


Because if this is a rogue/assassin build, I'd suggest a swordsage dip, as late as you can get it, or just playing a swordsage focusing on Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw.


I mean, it's a fair bit stronger than rogue is, after all. No need to multiclass or Prestige, either, though it would probably not hurt much.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Generally, look for Shadow Hand and other schools the Swordsage has access to for general assassin-styled tricks.

Here are some handbooks that may be (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies) of use to you, too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531) Outside of that, what level, resources, ability scores, etc. are we looking at?

[Dancingdeath]

Now that's more helpful. These forums have yet to disappoint.

[The-Mage-King]

Now that's more helpful. These forums have yet to disappoint.

Note, though, that Hunter's advice is what we ALL did to learn this stuff. Read the books, asked questions, and continued.


Anyway, we'll need specifics to help more- what level, what other sources allowed, and so on.

[HunterOfJello]

Well that's helpful. Any suggestions or tips though? Something that would be good for an assassin type build.

The book is quite honestly complex and the best way to learn it all is to read through the entire descriptions for each class one at a time and then read the entire section on maneuvers. Note: I'm not talking about the maneuvers and stances section I'm talking about the section called Blade Magic.

This book took me a long time to fully understand because the melee system is complex in the way it works and functions. It is completely different than all of the other D&D books that were printed before it. Reading it all is the fastest way to learn it, there aren't any real shortcuts.



Most of the sections have cool Fluff information about Reshar and the Nine Swords, so it's worth reading the entire book cover to cover.


Other suggestions:
-Don't get hung up on how Crusader's maneuver reset mechanic works, it doesn't really make sense and there are diagrams/descriptions online that make more sense.
-The classes in ToB were partially created to replace other melee classes, that's why they're so much more impressive. They are also amalgamations of previous core class concepts. Crusaders are Paladin/Fighters. Warblades are Fighter/Ranger/Barbarians. Swordsages are Bard/Rogue/Wizards. Viewing them from this perspective often makes more sense.
-Page 39 has info on the minimum Initiator Level to use maneuvers. Initiator Level is not the same as Maneuver Level. Initiator Level changes based on levels in both classes that use maneuvers and classes that do not. (This section is important to read carefully.)
-Some feats have different descriptions than the tables. The descriptions trump the table. Examples include Shadow Blade and Shadow Trickster. (Both of which are better in their descriptions than in the table.)
-You can only gain a 1st level stance when you take the first level in each base class. You cannot take Warblade 4/Swordsage 1 to gain a 3rd level Swordsage stance.

[Particle_Man]

You might want to have a look at the prestige classes too, to see if any catch your fancy (maybe bloodclaw master, maybe shadow sun ninja (although they are good guys, so it depends on what your concept is), maybe even Master of Nine.

I play a Crusader 13 and I just use 6 cards (ace through 6) and have my maneuvers written down on my character sheet. Then I shuffle and deal the cards to myself as appropriate (3 at first), dealing myself one more card at the end of each round. Simple!

Oh, fun fact: stances count as maneuvers for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.

Sadly the 9 Swords are given the Legacy Weapon treatment and so are not all that they are fluffed up to be.

Are you actually going for a rogue/assassin with just a few tricks from the Tome of Battle, or are you going for, say, a swordsage that does roguish and assassinesque stuff?

Oh, if you take Stone Dragon maneuvers they only work if you are standing on the ground, and a lot of their stances don't work if you move more than 5 feet, so that probably is not a good choice for you.

Any particular race? The aforementioned Bloodclaw master has a synergy with the shifter race.

[Kuulvheysoon]

-The classes in ToB were partially created to replace other melee classes, that's why they're so much more impressive. They are also amalgamations of previous core class concepts. Crusaders are Paladin/Fighters. Warblades are Fighter/Ranger/Barbarians. Swordsages are Bard/Rogue/Wizards. Viewing them from this perspective often makes more sense.
-Page 39 has info on the minimum Initiator Level to use maneuvers. Initiator Level is not the same as Maneuver Level. Initiator Level changes based on levels in both classes that use maneuvers and classes that do not. (This section is important to read carefully.)
-Some feats have different descriptions than the tables. The descriptions trump the table. Examples include Shadow Blade and Shadow Trickster. (Both of which are better in their descriptions than in the table.)
-You can only gain a 1st level stance when you take the first level in each base class. You cannot take Warblade 4/Swordsage 1 to gain a 3rd level Swordsage stance.

-Crusaders are really meant to replace Paladins, while Warblade is meant to replace Fighters (and maybe pseudo-replace Barbarians). Swordsage replaces Rogue and Monk.
-IL (Initiator Level) and Maneuver Level function exactly the same as Caster Level and spell levels, including the levels at which you gain access to them (IL=ML*2-1)

and HunterofJello - if you think that this book is badly organised, take a look at MoI (Magic of Incarnum). THAT book is actually terribly organised. The Bo9S is damned near straight forward compared to it.

[Dancingdeath]

I'm not starting from scratch. I'm leveling my wife's character into swordsage. She is a rogue5/assassin3 already. She's playing a super evil Drow (good Lord I love that woman). Although, she does currently want to stab my character in the phallus. She's using kukris. I have read through the book once and found it a bit confusing. That's why I asked for a bit of help.

[The-Mage-King]

Aaahhhhhh


In that case, two levels in swordsage to start. Level more in it if she finds it fun, or head back to Rogue/Assassin if not. She'll have an IL of 5 at the first level, so she can get Assassin's Stance if she grabs a 1st or 2nd level Shadow Hand maneuver.


Plan for more levels. :smalltongue:


Also, explain what you find confusing. There are some tips to make it less so, if we know what the problems are.

[Particle_Man]

She could easily multi-class into swordsage assuming you don't play with the multi-class penalty rule. But a warning, levels in the class can be addictive . . .

Or she can just take feats at level 9 (to get a shadow hand maneuver), 12 (to get the Assassin's stance you want), 15 to get a tiger claw maneuver (ok, wolf fang strike), and 18 (to get blood in the water). But that is taking the long road. Quicker by far (and saving your feats for something else) is to take Sword sage 1, with 5 maneuvers (including wolf fang strike and a shadow hand maneuver) and the blood in the water stance, then take assassin stance at sword sage 2. Then she would have to decide whether to go back to assassin or keep on going with the sweet, sweet swordsage.

[Dancingdeath]

I'm a bit fuzzy on how you calculate IL. The table on page 39 suggests that she'd only have access to level one abilities. But you say she'd have an IL of 5. How are you getting that?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm a bit fuzzy on how you calculate IL. The table on page 39 suggests that she'd only have access to level one abilities. But you say she'd have an IL of 5. How are you getting that?

Each level you have in an Initiator class (ie Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade) give you one IL, BUT under multiclassing, it states that every level in a non-initiator class gives you 1/2 IL. So, a rogue 5/assassin 3/swordsage 1 has an IL of 5: 4 from 8 other class levels, and 1 from swordsage, for a total of 5.

[Cwymbran-San]

You get an IL of (Levels of Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader)+(half the levels in any other class). So, her Rogue5/Assassin3 will do for IL 4, adding a level of swordsage makes it 5.

EDIT: Dang, too slow :smallsmile:

[Dancingdeath]

It's all making sense now gentlemen and ladies if there are any out there. (My experience in gaming is that ladies are as rare in gaming as unicorns are to horses. They are rumored to exist, but you never see one).

[Cwymbran-San]

On the contrary, i usually play with my wife, a married couple and another female friend of mine, making it 2 males and 3 females.

Talk about the exception confirming the the rule :smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

It's all making sense now gentlemen and ladies if there are any out there. (My experience in gaming is that ladies are as rare in gaming as unicorns are to horses. They are rumored to exist, but you never see one).
In one campaign I'm in, I'm the only male.

You may proceed to envy me. :smallbiggrin:

[Duke of URL]

In that case, two levels in swordsage to start. Level more in it if she finds it fun, or head back to Rogue/Assassin if not. She'll have an IL of 5 at the first level, so she can get Assassin's Stance if she grabs a 1st or 2nd level Shadow Hand maneuver.

Although note that the stance you take at Swordsage 1, by RAW, must be a 1st-level stance. The second stance offered at level 2 (IIRC, not checking the book at this very moment) depends only on IL and prerequisites.

[Dancingdeath]

I picked her maneuvers and stances. I got Blood in the Water and Assassin's Stance as her 2 stances, so I'm level appropriate there. I'm liking the Swordsage pretty well the more I understand how they work. Although, were WotC really trying to retroactively balance the classes that near the end of standard 3.5e production?

[Person_Man]

Go to the Wizard of the Coast website and print out the maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

Choose a couple of Disciplines that you find thematically interesting. Or just pick a couple at random. They're all good in different ways.

Look at the class chart to figure out how many maneuvers and stances you get.

Pick the highest level maneuvers and stances you're allowed in the Disciplines you've chosen.

Play a couple of combats using them.

Rinse and repeat.

[Zombimode]

Although note that the stance you take at Swordsage 1, by RAW, must be a 1st-level stance. The second stance offered at level 2 (IIRC, not checking the book at this very moment) depends only on IL and prerequisites.

Yeah, by strict RAW this is true. But it is questionable if this should be taken literaly. It could also be taken as a reminder text for 1st level characters.
Also note that the "level 1" restriction is noteably missing on the crusader. One level of crusader just gives you 5 maneuver and one stance, at least iirc.

Either way ToB is desingt to be multiclass-friendly. Enforcing the level 1 restriction contradicts this.

[Duke of URL]

I agree that ToB is mutliclassing friendly -- it actually gave the original inspiration for the multiclassing rules in Boundless Horizons, although we had to expand upon them a bit to make things work.

As for the earlier comment about attempting to balance... there may have been some of that. Outside of a few typos, etc., ToB is often considered one of the best WotC 3.5 books because pretty much everything is well balanced (pretty much to Tier 3, even). It was also, I think, a prototype for some of 4e's at-will and encounter-based mechanics.

[Ashtagon]

Tomb of Battle? Is that like a martial style flavoured for the undead?

I'm guessing Knowledge (religion) would be the relevant skill, and it would favour the scythe and (executioner's) as weapons, but beyond that, I dunno.

[Dancingdeath]

Tome, not Tomb. It was a typo. Let it go.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, by strict RAW this is true. But it is questionable if this should be taken literaly. It could also be taken as a reminder text for 1st level characters.
Also note that the "level 1" restriction is noteably missing on the crusader. One level of crusader just gives you 5 maneuver and one stance, at least iirc.

Either way ToB is desingt to be multiclass-friendly. Enforcing the level 1 restriction contradicts this.

Are we looking at the same class?

Because I've got my ToB right here, and there's a sentence about 1st level stances in the Crusader entry.


You begin play with one 1st level stance from the Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon or White Raven discipline.

[Feralventas]

Would assassin really function as a "martial" class? I know the Rogue levels would add to initiator level when starting out, but assassin does gain limited spell casting capacity.

Same question in general for Ranger and Paladin; not primary 'casters, but I wonder if the ability to cast at all would mitigate their contribution to initiator level since they're relying on divine empowerment at least in some respects.

[The-Mage-King]

Yep. Any level that is not in an initiator base class or PrC affecting an initiator base class counts for half IL.

Be it fullcaster or fighter, monk or mage, it counts.

[Siosilvar]

Would assassin really function as a "martial" class? I know the Rogue levels would add to initiator level when starting out, but assassin does gain limited spell casting capacity.

Same question in general for Ranger and Paladin; not primary 'casters, but I wonder if the ability to cast at all would mitigate their contribution to initiator level since they're relying on divine empowerment at least in some respects.

Classes with full IL progression: Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, PrCs in the book Tome of Battle, arguably all other PrCs if you read the text that way.
Classes with half IL progression: All other classes. Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter, whatever else you take.

IIRC you also have three different ILs, one for each of Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader.

[Tono]

Classes with full IL progression: Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, PrCs in the book Tome of Battle, arguably all other PrCs if you read the text that way.
Classes with half IL progression: All other classes. Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Fighter, whatever else you take.

IIRC you also have three different ILs, one for each of Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader.

Isn't blood storm blade the exception? I am AFB atm but if I remember correctly that one PrC does not get the full progression.

[Particle_Man]

I am pretty sure it is right to sum up rogue 5/assassin 3 to get 8 non IL classes to get 4 initiator levels, but I heard somewhere that one would record them separately (so rogue 5 is 2 initiator levels and assassin 3 is 1 initiator level so you have a total of 3 initiator levels from rogue and assassin). Is this clarified in the text?

Also if you only had 1 level that was not an initiator class (say monk 1/swordsage 10), would it could as 0 or 1 initiator levels?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I am pretty sure it is right to sum up rogue 5/assassin 3 to get 8 non IL classes to get 4 initiator levels, but I heard somewhere that one would record them separately (so rogue 5 is 2 initiator levels and assassin 3 is 1 initiator level so you have a total of 3 initiator levels from rogue and assassin). Is this clarified in the text?

Also if you only had 1 level that was not an initiator class (say monk 1/swordsage 10), would it could as 0 or 1 initiator levels?

I'm pretty sure that in 3.5e in general, unless it specifies otherwise, always round DOWN.

[The-Mage-King]

I am pretty sure it is right to sum up rogue 5/assassin 3 to get 8 non IL classes to get 4 initiator levels, but I heard somewhere that one would record them separately (so rogue 5 is 2 initiator levels and assassin 3 is 1 initiator level so you have a total of 3 initiator levels from rogue and assassin). Is this clarified in the text?

Also if you only had 1 level that was not an initiator class (say monk 1/swordsage 10), would it could as 0 or 1 initiator levels?

Directly from the book.


If you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes.


So it's right to total, then divide.


As for monk dip, it's .5, but due to rounding in D&D (down unless otherwise noted), it counts as 0.

[Answerer]

It's worth noting that the example characters in the book round their IL up. Certainly not RAW by any stretch of the imagination, just kind of amusing.


Yeah, by strict RAW this is true. But it is questionable if this should be taken literaly. It could also be taken as a reminder text for 1st level characters.
Also note that the "level 1" restriction is noteably missing on the crusader. One level of crusader just gives you 5 maneuver and one stance, at least iirc.

Either way ToB is desingt to be multiclass-friendly. Enforcing the level 1 restriction contradicts this.
I completely agree with this. The sentence used in the Stance sections of each class seems to be descriptive, not proscriptive. It refers to "starting" with a 1st-level stance: it seems to be assuming that you're starting as a 1st level, Crusader-or-Swordsage-or-Warblade 1. I would not recommend enforcing the statement on characters who take their 1st level of an initiating class later.

In fact, I'd probably not play in a game that did enforce that, because it's really dumb. It doesn't match up with the way the rest of ToB is designed (multiclass friendly), and there's no compelling balance reason to enforce it.

[tyckspoon]

Isn't blood storm blade the exception? I am AFB atm but if I remember correctly that one PrC does not get the full progression.

Yup. Bloodstorm Blade does not teach you more maneuvers, does not have a class feature stating 'this class advances your IL fully' the way the other PrCs in the book do, and the example Bloodstorm Blade character (for what it's worth, given the erratic accuracy of example statblocks) has its IL calculated with the Bloodstorm Blade levels only counting for half, the same as the 2 Fighter levels it has. This is the primary RAI evidence that non-initiating prestige classes do not count fully for initiator level, IMO. (The RAW evidence is that the line "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level." is immediately followed by "See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details." So the supposed 'general' rule that is claimed to cause all prestiges to count fully is immediately given a more specific reference; if it's not in chapter 5 of Tome of Battle, then the general statement has no relevance to it.)