Psionic creation feats clarification for a dorje build

[Soranar]

I was considering making a ''Johnny's got his dorje'' build using

craft dorje
dual dorje
dorje master (+4 manifester level to a power manifester through a dorje)

The point being in, eventually, creating 2 crystal shard dorjes which would both contain level 20 manifester crystal shard

But I'm not sure I understand how making a dorje with a metapsionic feat functions. The SRD quotes says the following:

With the right psionic Item Creation feat, you can store a metapsionic power in a power stone, psionic tattoo, or dorje. Level limits for psionic tattoos apply to the power’s higher metapsionic level.

Does this mean I only need craft dorje? Or do I need an improved form of craft dorje that they never bothered to publish?

And, assuming I don't need other feats than craft dorje and the metapsionic feat in question, can I put more than 1 on the same power? (say an empowered maximized split ray dorje). Which would make me able to mimic a mailman build by using dorjes.

[HunterOfJello]

I don't know if it says anywhere that you can only use 1 metapsionic per power, but you have to use up your psionic focus to manifest a metapsionic power which would presumably imply that only 1 can be manifested at a time. I'm really not sure though.

Page 181 of the XPH has more information on creating dorjes.

I had presumed that they worked like magical items in that you have to cast the spell on a magical item for it to be able to use the ability later. I don't see any specific information about if that's the same for psionics.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Psionic Items and Metapsionic Powers

With the right psionic item creation feat, you can store a metapsionic power in a power stone, psionic tattoo, or dorje. Level limits for psionic tattoos apply to the power’s higher metapsionic level.

A character doesn’t need the appropriate metapsionic feat to activate an item in which a metapsionic power is stored, but does need the metapsionic feat to create such an item.

Emphasis mine.

Far as I can tell, every metapsionic feat also carries with it an increased PP cost. Since you use more PP, this raises the effective ML of the power, meaning that A) You have to be a higher level to create it and B) the base cost of the item (Power level x ML x 750gp) will also increase due to the increase in ML.

You can probably apply multiple metapsionic powers if you can pay the increased PP cost (due to ML restrictions). And you need only the basic craft dorje feat to do this. Isn't psionics wonderful?

EDIT:

I don't know if it says anywhere that you can only use 1 metapsionic per power, but you have to use up your psionic focus to manifest a metapsionic power which would presumably imply that only 1 can be manifested at a time. I'm really not sure though.

There are ways around this - your psicrystal can store a focus for you, for example.

[Soranar]

Right, if I lose my psionic focus I'm not sure dual wielding is worth it, or maybe it is if only to keep my psionic focus for important actions.

Still, at lower levels (with the +4 ML from dorje mastery) this should be a pretty powerful combo, and dorjes don't create AoO, unlike a wand.

And the cost of making the wands is divided by 25 if you make them yourself, though it takes a while to create them.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I might be missing something obvious, but how are you getting around this:

Dorjes are normally created at the minimum manifester level required to manifest the power, and powers that can be augmented are not augmented when stored in a dorje. A dorje’s wielder cannot augment the power contained within the dorje. However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.
So even with Dorje Mastery the highest manifester level you can get is 10, surely?

[Soranar]

I might be missing something obvious, but how are you getting around this:

So even with Dorje Mastery the highest manifester level you can get is 10, surely?

Not exactly since metapsionics increase the ML required to cast a power and you can always pick a higher level power to being with.

[erikun]

"The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm)" (last line) This could put a crimp in your dorje plans, as you could either augment a power by 5 PP or apply a maximize, for example, but you could not have a maximized 6 PP Crystal Shard dorje (just to use your example).

Beyond that, I'm a bit confused as to what this feat is supposed to do:

dorje master (+4 manifester level to a power manifester through a dorje)
You cannot augment powers in dorjes, so the only think a higher manifester level would grant you is extended time with round/level or minutes/level durations.

[Soranar]

actually you can augment a power in dorjes, it's even stated in the description:

dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, (from SRD)

and the feat (dorje mastery) also states in its description that it augments a power if it can be augmented

[erikun]

I meant that you cannot augment the power of an already-existing dorje; the feat made it sound like it applied to using dorjes.

You can augment a power when creating a dorje, and a feat that grants you +4 manifester level when doing so (meaning potentially +9 ML when crafting one) would be a good deal.

[Soranar]

again, google is your friend"

http://dndtools.eu/feats/magic-of-eberron--9/dorje-mastery--687/

yes, it augments the power of an existing dorje

[erikun]

Aha, so my first reading was the correct one.

And perhaps the less useful one; this means that you are still limited to only +5 ML when crafting dorjes, you just get an extra "free" 4 PP applied when using them. This means you could craft a Crystal Shard dorje for 6 PP manifestation at 6th level, and use it as if you were spending a 10 PP Crystal Shard, but you won't ever be able to craft a 20th ML Crystal Shard dorje. Also, no Chain or Split dorjes, because both require +6 PP, which won't fit.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Aha, so my first reading was the correct one.

And perhaps the less useful one; this means that you are still limited to only +5 ML when crafting dorjes, you just get an extra "free" 4 PP applied when using them. This means you could craft a Crystal Shard dorje for 6 PP manifestation at 6th level, and use it as if you were spending a 10 PP Crystal Shard, but you won't ever be able to craft a 20th ML Crystal Shard dorje. Also, no Chain or Split dorjes, because both require +6 PP, which won't fit.

This is where it gets fuzzy for me -technically, the minimum PP cost for a Empowered Crystal shard is (base PP+metapsionic cost). So does this mean that it's 5 PP beyond that, or 5 beyond what's necessary to manifest a basic Crystal Shard?

[Raendyn]

Bogardan and Erikun are correct, you cant have a dorje created with ML higher than +5 before you apply your feat.

Note that any alternation of the power than requires ML increase must be in the original dorje. You can't randomly apply metapsionics you know using the feat only, You must have all the metapsionics in the original dorje and the feat's bonus ML is just used for the defaul augmentations of the power.

Important: As you read the dorje creation rules, you'll notice that its either plan A or plan B, no mixing of the two. So its Crystal shard Power lvl1- ML(1-6) or crystal shard power lvl 2 ML3-4, Power lvl 3 ML5-6...Power lvl 6 ML11-12 etc.