Cleric Counter-Psionics Strategies

[Jeff the Green]

Thanks to applying Divine Insight to some Gather Information checks, I know that my PBP party is coming up against goblins led by Blues. Which probably means psionics. Thing is, I've never played with psionics, and don't really know how to counter them, can't find much in my books, and my Google Fu is failing me.

The party is:

A Crusader/Incarnate
A Ranger
An Artificer (probably no time to make anything, though)
A Barbarian/Swordsage

and

Me, a Cloistered Cleric of Kelemvor

We're level 4, and I've got DMM: Quicken, Knowledge Devotion, and Travel Devotion as potentially relevant feats.

Any gear I could pick up or spells I could prepare to help out?

[Psyren]

It's no different than countering any other spellcaster (except you can't counterspell.) Boost your saving throws/HP/touch AC, pack dispels, get in their face, mess up their concentration checks, that sort of thing.

Unless your DM is using the Psionics Are Different variant. If that is the case, you can't dispel their buffs/summons etc., so just burn them down as fast as possible.

[Myth]

Think of it as trying to beat Wizards who have a bit less versatility. It's really up to what your DM throws at you. At level 4 they can't really do that many things. If it's a level 6 or 7 Psion then they can potentially be deadly if they go PP nova. I mean deadly to one character mostly.

Shut down their manifesting and you're good. Pool your party gold for a Dust of Sneezing and Choking and you should be good. That, or Aboleth Mucus.

[eggs]

The only difference is that shutting down verbal, somatic or material components (via Silence, Grapple, Sunder, etc.) doesn't work.

In a longterm sense, Divine Defiance+Battlemagic Perception+Inquisition Domain is a pretty useful combination here, but in a short-term build-retaining sense, specifically fouling up psions is pretty much about interrupting manifesting (but it'd probably be more efficient to just try to splatter them before they start casting) and maybe preparing a Resurgence or two, in case someone gets zapped.

[Psyren]

In a longterm sense, Divine Defiance+Battlemagic Perception+Inquisition Domain is a pretty useful combination here,

No it isn't - All powers are psi-like abilities, and psi-like abilities cannot be countered.

[eggs]

No it isn't - All powers are psi-like abilities, and psi-like abilities cannot be countered.Psi-like abilities are named similarly to spell-like abilities, but do not include SLA's stipulation that they cannot counter/be countered.

In the explanation of Psionics-Magic transparency, Dispel Magic is explicitly stated to function against powers using the same mechanics as if it were used against spells.

Dispel may normally be used to counter spells.

[charcoalninja]

That's with respect to dispelling them, Psionics cannot be counterspelled because they mechanically are not subject to counterspell through their definition as being Psi-Like abilities. Otherwise Dispel magic does indeed affect psionics as per spells.

For specific Psionic defense strats memorize protection from Evil. It'll negate any attempt to mentally control your party members via telepathy which is a definiate concern going up against Psions.

Another big issue will be ability damage from things such as Ego whip, so have some lesser restorations prepared to counter the ability damage. Silence, a usual caster negating mainstay is useless against Psions as they have no components, as already mentioned.

They have strong will saves so spells like command, and Doom, and cause fear won't be very effective against them.

Aid gives a bonus to saves for your target I think so its a handy one to have. Blue's tend not to have too high of a con so keeping a spiritual weapon prepared is a good call. Usually I say have Sanctuary prepared at all times but against strong will saves its another weakness.

The biggest low level threats from psionics are Charm Person, Ego Whip, and Astral Construct IMO, so buffing the saves of your party should be your top priority, followed by enabling them to smash the psions asap to prevent construct gang ups. You've got a crusader which is awesome he can tank anything, and having a barbarian there means that if you can keep them succeeding their saves vs. the powers, they're going to freakin destroy the little guys.

Great party composition you guys have there.

[Psyren]

Psi-like abilities are named similarly to spell-like abilities, but do not include SLA's stipulation that they cannot counter/be countered.

Yes they do. Here are the relevant quotes from the SRD:


The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability.


Psi-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

[Draz74]

One strategy could potentially work against psionics that doesn't work against spellcasters: hunting down some psionic monsters that attack psionicists specifically and bringing them to the fight. Brain Moles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/brainMole.htm) are probably the most practical monster to use for this. Perhaps since they're Magical Beasts, you could know where to locate some just with a high enough Know(Arcana) check?

[Ernir]

There's a reason you've never heard of "countermanifesting" or "counterpsiing" or whatever. The mechanic simply isn't defined.
Really. The PM-transparency existing doesn't mean you can apply every term that is defined for magic to psionics.

Anyway.

You're level 4, which means there aren't very many options available to you as hard counters, unless you wish to spend feats on it (see general feats (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicFeats.htm), here), which is probably a bad idea unless you know you're going to be facing lots of Psions throughout the campaign.
So as Psyren said, deal with it as you would any other spellcaster-type.
Have the Ranger (or whoever is most proficient with a ranged weapon) ready an action to shoot an arrow at the Psion if he tries to manifest, the rest try to beat him to death with weapons?

[eggs]

Yes they do.
I seriously went years without knowing that had been ruled out in the book's monster section, of all places. :/ I guess that answers one of my nagging questions about Dispel Psionics.

Anyway, in that case, countering psionics is going to rely on directly interrupting them with damage effects via either readied actions (which generally tear your initiative apart unless you can manifest the Synchronicity power, interestingly enough) or making immediate-action attacks (I'm having trouble thinking of any ways a Cleric can do that).

But if readying an action to attack is an option to you, there are some sticky points:
Readying melee-ranged attacks is impractical unless you have a way to approach the manifester, a way to get them to stick on you, and the attack that would otherwise use the standard/full round action wouldn't kill them. This is a weird case where being Staggered or Slowed is tactically useful, because it allows you to ready a partial charge to both move and interrupt the power.
Readying ranged attacks is often inefficient, because ranged combat feat support often favor volleys of relatively low-damage attacks. A ranged combatant readying a ranged attack generally decreases expected damage output dramatically, and doesn't present a particularly difficult Concentration DC.
Spells are good, though. Something like Scorching or Targeting ray is difficult to just shake off, and the damage is the same blasting during your turn as it is blasting during someone else's.


Generally, as has already been said, you'll be best off just trying to squish them like any other enemy, rather than getting tied up trying to specifically combat their manifesting.

[Jeff the Green]

Alright, I think I can handle that. Thanks everybody!

One question about forcing Concentration checks. What DC would you use for being distracted by a spell that neither does damage nor has a save? Like, say, being suddenly drenched with eight gallons of water from create water.

And would boosting saves or boosting touch AC be a higher priority?

[Rubik]

You can also hit them with alchemical items. Alchemist's fire has duration damage, and tanglefoot bags force concentration checks for spellcasters (and manifesters, through transparency).

I'd also suggest casting several Unseen Servants with small-sized darkwood tower shields to provide moving cover for the party, as well.

[Psyren]

One question about forcing Concentration checks. What DC would you use for being distracted by a spell that neither does damage nor has a save? Like, say, being suddenly drenched with eight gallons of water from create water.

Well, the general rule is that you use the DC the spell would have had if it DID allow a save. So 10+spell level+casting stat.

But I'm not so sure about your example; if you planned on conjuring the water above their heads to let it fall down on them, you can't do that.

[Jeff the Green]

No, I know it has to be conjured on a surface. But goblins have surfaces. :smallamused:

Actually, the description of create water is a little confusing. It says it can create a downpour, which implies creating it in thin air, but the Conjuration school forbids that.

[Psyren]

No, I know it has to be conjured on a surface. But goblins have surfaces. :smallamused:

None that can support water though (except inside of them, but you don't have line of effect in there.)


Actually, the description of create water is a little confusing. It says it can create a downpour, which implies creating it in thin air, but the Conjuration school forbids that.

Actually that still works. Water vapor can be supported by the air in the form of clouds. So you can conjure that up, and then rain it down.

But even if the DM rules that this can be used to distract, RAW it will have a very low DC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Alright, I think I can handle that. Thanks everybody!

One question about forcing Concentration checks. What DC would you use for being distracted by a spell that neither does damage nor has a save? Like, say, being suddenly drenched with eight gallons of water from create water.

And would boosting saves or boosting touch AC be a higher priority?

Looking at the Concentration skill:
Concentration DC* ............ Distraction
Distracting spell’s save DC .. Distracted by nondamaging spell.**
* If you are trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell when the distraction occurs, add the level of the spell to the indicated DC.
** If the spell allows no save, use the save DC it would have if it did allow a save.

So, assuming you ready an action to Create Water on them when they next manifest a power, their Concentration DC would be the save DC of your 0-level spell (10 + Wis bonus), plus the level of the power they're trying to manifest. Assuming you have Wis 18, they should be looking at a maximum Concentration DC of 16. Assuming they have 7 ranks and +2 Con, they have to roll a 7 or higher. I don't really think that would be worth spending your action on. Readying a Sound Burst to stun them when manifesting would probably be better, Psions and Wilders get poor Fort saves, plus they would have to make a Concentration check versus the damage even if they succeed. Two rolls is two chances to fail, after all.

The spell Ice Slick from Frostburn is always good to have. It works just like Grease.

Get a Wand of Snowsight, which the Ranger can use on everyone. Cast Obscuring Snow, and they'll have an extremely difficult time targeting any of your characters. Both spells are in Frostburn. Note that this is a trump card that works against nearly any opponent in the game, it is extremely unfair and your DM is likely to do anything from banning/nerfing those spells to throwing books at you.

[candycorn]

Speaking of this, I'm playing the Crusader in this game, or, more appropriately, the Incarnate (Azurin Crusader 1 / Incarnate 3, with one feat granting +1 essentia)

Was debating on shaping melds for spell resistance, damage reduction, and one other.

Based on the knowledge of psionics, was thinking:

Astral Vambraces (1 essentia invested) (DR 4/magic)

Spellward Shirt (expanded, 3 essentia) (SR 17)

Incarnate Weapon (1 essentia invested) (+1 Weapon) or Therapeutic Mantle (Heal +2-3 HP per crusader ability)

Thoughts?

Incidentally, currently a sword and board, with full plate armor and a heavy shield. Lawful Neutral, for incarnate abilities.

[Jeff the Green]

None that can support water though (except inside of them, but you don't have line of effect in there.)

I think that's debatable. Yes, it will just roll off the creature, but if that means it "can't support" it, then you can't create water on an inclined plane, which seems ridiculous.


But even if the DM rules that this can be used to distract, RAW it will have a very low DC.

I don't really plan on doing it. I just found the image of a psion's power backfiring because he's suddenly soggy entertaining.

@Candycorn, I don't know a lot about Incarnum, but I'd say those should make you a very good tank for us. We just need to find a way to get them to only attack you.

I found some alchemical items that are worth using (slumber sand, stink pots, and bile droppings). My character has a distinct aversion to using fire, so alchemist's fire is out. With my +2 ranged attack bonus, I may have to just thwack them with the vial for it to hit, but they'll give me a backup to my spells. Which we should probably discuss in the OOC thread.

[TheFallenOne]

I see what you did there guys. I see what you did there :smalltongue:
(I'm the DM)