Which is stronger?

[unundindur]

Which would you find stronger of a Conjurer5/Eldritch Knight10/Abjurant Champion5 and a Warblade1/Conjurer5/Abjurant Champion5/Jade Phoenix Mage9?

The first has BaB 17 and CL 19, while the latter has BaB 17 and CL 17, but a lot of maneuvers.

Entry in the first is possible via elf > Otherworldly feat.

[Killer Angel]

I could argue that you can work around CL, but "lot of maneuvers", well, you've got 'em, or you don't (even if I'm dubious about the real value of maneuvers, when high level casting kicks in)

[Flickerdart]

When you have 9th level Wizard spells, it doesn't really matter how many maneuvers you have. However, how are you meeting the "proficient with all martial weapons" requirement of Eldritch Knight?

[unundindur]

When you have 9th level Wizard spells, it doesn't really matter how many maneuvers you have. However, how are you meeting the "proficient with all martial weapons" requirement of Eldritch Knight?

Because the Otherworldly feat makes you a native outsider, and outsiders (for some reason) gain proficiency with all simple and martial weapons.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Outsider_Type

Given that the text spesifically say where they differ from non-native outsiders, it is safe to assume this is also true for native outsiders :smallsmile:

EDIT: That feat is not only among the best feats I know of (as it makes Alter Self etc incredibly powerful), but it is also really really in tune with my view of how elves should be.

[Myth]

If you want to stay clear of that feat, take the Militia feat from PGTF. It gives only MWP but it cannot be banned because it's cheesy.

Also, the Dragonslayer PrC at level one gives MWP and HAP and advances casting as well. It has some steep requirements however, namely slaying a dragon.

[Telonius]

At least in Pathfinder, one of the devs says (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/clarificationRequestDoAasimarsTieflingHaveProficie ncyInAllBasicMartialWeapons&page=1#11) this is not kosher:


They do not automatically gain proficiency wiht all martial weapons; as 0 HD outsiders, their weapon proficiencies are determined solely by their class levels. This works the same as 0 HD humanoids, or with 0 HD creatures of ANY monster type (so far, there's only 0 HD humanoids and outsiders, but that could change some day).

The question was regarding Tieflings and Aasimar, but it would also apply to any other 0-HD creature.

[unundindur]

At least in Pathfinder, one of the devs says (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/clarificationRequestDoAasimarsTieflingHaveProficie ncyInAllBasicMartialWeapons&page=1#11) this is not kosher:



The question was regarding Tieflings and Aasimar, but it would also apply to any other 0-HD creature.

I can totally see how they intended it that way, but I do not see that in ink. Have they actually written anything about a creature being less of an outsider if they have 0 outsider-HD?

This is such a weird meta-concept that it makes my mind spin :smalltongue:

[Myth]

What does kosher mean?

[Harry]

Kosher Means food that meets the Jewish laws requirements For food so It basically means RAW in game terms also I wound say the first build is stronger Yes having a 9th spell and maneuvers is strong but having 3 9th level spells is stronger for instance the second build 9th level spell could be gate but the first build 9th level spells could be gate shapechange and time stop there are no maneuvers stronger then those last two spells well that's what I think at least:smallsmile:

[Jigokuro]

Interestingly, due to the rules for initiator levels of multiclass chars conjurer5/warblade1 is better than the other way around. By 20 though, the difference is negligible, it would only matter if you were actually playing the mid levels.

[eggs]

Looking at what I think are reasonable constructions of the two builds, there are ~8 levels where the EK has higher-level spell access than the JPM. Those are heavily weighted in the rear-end of the respective characters' careers.

At those levels - especially when the difference is in level 8 or 9 spell access, I would say the EK is stronger, despite the glaring lack of class features (Defensive Rebuke is nice, but it's no Polymorph; this gets more pronounced when comparing Castigating or Revitalizing Strikes to Timestop or Shapechange). At the other levels, JPM and maneuvers provide some useful support abilities, but spells can provide enough varied effects that the initiator/non-initiator distinction isn't as noticeable in casters as in mundane melee. I'd only call the JPM decisively better over this period if melee-based control elements are the central focus of the character's design.

In terms of progression, the two builds are pretty well matched until the JPM has to eat its third dead-casting level, at which point EK takes a decisive lead until level 20, when the JPM overlaps it by having both 9th level spells and a variety of useful class features.

If the JPM cut off Jade Phoenix Mage levels at 5, and went into something like Sacred Exorcist or Raumathari Battlemage to replace the last 4 levels' filler, I'd credit it with an overall advantage.

[unundindur]

Interestingly, due to the rules for initiator levels of multiclass chars conjurer5/warblade1 is better than the other way around. By 20 though, the difference is negligible, it would only matter if you were actually playing the mid levels.

In terms of maneuvers yes, but I would definantly have warblade first. 8 hp is a big deal, especially early on, and 2*4 skill points is also nothing to sneeze at.

As you mention, eventually you will get more maneuvers anyway, so at that point its not that important anymore :)

[Elric VIII]

I would recommend something like Conjurer 6/JPM 2/Abjurant Champion 5/JPM +3/Sacred Exorcist 4. Use the Wizard ACF that trades away your Wizard feats for fighter bonus feats and use your Wizard 5 and normal 6th level feat for Martial Study/Stance (to qualify for JPM); you can even retrain those feats once you learn maneuvers for JPM, because of the way maneuvers and their prerequisites work. You end up as a 19th level caster with +16 BAB. However, you will not be a very good warrior levels 1-6.


As a side note, Deep Imaskari also qualify for Otherworldly and get -2 Dex and +2 Int (better than elves, since IIRC, the elves that qualify all get -2 Str).



FWIW, a Gish build that I really liked was my Lesser Fire Genasi Wizard 6/Swiftblade 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade +3 (17th level caster and +17 BAB). Josiah, the Purging Flame. He was like an Arcane Paladin with Luminous Armor.

Personally, I found while playing a melee Cleric that once I started getting high level spells, I ended up doing melee less and less. My advice for best gish atmosphere is to play one that gets a hampered spell progression in a game without any full casters (this one was going to have an Arcane Trickster and a Barbarian with a Wizard dip), at least that's how I would want to do it next time I gished it up.