Need Help Revamping Scrols, Staffs, and Wands (D&D 3.5)

[wayfare]

After a recent D&D campaign, my two casters voiced an interesting opinion:

The inclusion of magic items like scrolls, staffs, wands and the like made magic feel less "unique". After some discussion, the players decided that they were not opposed to items that produced magical effects, so much as they didn't want items that directly duplicated spells -- particularly items like wands that produce magic much more easily and in greater volume than PCs ever could.

With this in mind, I am thinking of having these magic items function in new ways, instead of eliminating them entirely. Here are a few very rough ideas:

Scrolls do not hold spells anymore. Instead, scrolls hold magic rituals for a short time. You perform the ritual at +5 DC -- on a success, the ritual is captured in the scroll. Using a scroll, you can perform a ritual in 1/10th the time it would normally take, without any material components (as they are only needed for the original casting of the ritual into the scroll).

Staffs make you better at performing magic. A basic function of staffs is increasing your caster level, ranging from 1-5 levels. All staffs have a secondary effect that pertains to a specific type of magic. For example, a "Firetouched Staff" increases the damage die type of all damaging fire spells by 1 step. A "Staff of Reaching" increases the range of a spell by 50%.

Wands are magic weapons that are powered by charges. Wands make touch attacks, and produce a special effect on a critical hit instead of inflicting additional damage.
Wands only hold 20 charges, but can be recharged with a special ritual.

This is all very rough, so I would love any help people would be willing to provide!

[wayfare]

Shameless, shameless bump.

[The Mentalist]

Scroll = ?? I are confused. What qualifies as a ritual as opposed to a regular spell. Does this mean I can cast Planar Binding in 1/10th of the time.

Staff = Metamagic Rod. Seems reasonable. No-one really uses a staff though that I know of. They are mostly for TO builds that need a specific spell. (Scepters from FR do the same thing.) I like this option sort of.

Wand = Modified Weapon, melee or ranged touch?

[Steward]

I too need more details on the change to scrolls. Is "ritual" referring to a homebrew rule or something from the SRD or a non-Core source?

The wand idea sounds interesting, but how would the weapon be treated? I'm guessing it's melee because it's basically a magic stick, but what are the "special effects" that are activated upon a critical hit? Would those be spells (ie a "wand of glitterdust" triggers the glitterdust effect upon landing a critical hit) or would they be more like weapon enhancements (ie a "fire wand" normally deals regular damage, but it triggers a fiery burst that inflicts additional fire damage on a critical hit). Or neither of these?

[wayfare]

I too need more details on the change to scrolls. Is "ritual" referring to a homebrew rule or something from the SRD or a non-Core source?

The wand idea sounds interesting, but how would the weapon be treated? I'm guessing it's melee because it's basically a magic stick, but what are the "special effects" that are activated upon a critical hit? Would those be spells (ie a "wand of glitterdust" triggers the glitterdust effect upon landing a critical hit) or would they be more like weapon enhancements (ie a "fire wand" normally deals regular damage, but it triggers a fiery burst that inflicts additional fire damage on a critical hit). Or neither of these?

Thanks for the input!

Rituals are basically cribbed from d20 modern. They are spell effects that are very powerful, so powerful that the group decided against using them. Instead of eliminating these effects entirely, we turned them into rituals - spells that require expensive material components and have a casting time measured in hours.

Summoning spells are rituals, as is any kind of raising the dead. Transformng into another creature is usually a ritual, except if its a class feature rather than a spell. Creating undead is usually a ritual, and any spell that break the economy is either a ritual or has been hit hard with the nerf bat.

Wands are often ranged touch weapons, but some of the more powerful ones are melee touch. Wands basically have a damage value comperable to standard weapons, but trigger a magical effect on a critical. For example:

A Hungry Wand inflicts 1d8 necrotic damage and grants the bearer 5 temporary hp on a critical hit.

A Wand of Searing inflicts 1d8 fire damage on a ranged touch, and imposes a -2 penalty to Saves and AC for one round on a critical hit.

A Winterkiss Wand inflicts 1d12 cold damage on a melee touch, and slows the opponent on a critical.

Basically, the goal is to make spells more unique -- nothing duplicates spells. Even potions are not allowed to function identically to spells.

[The Mentalist]

Thanks for the input!
Wands are often ranged touch weapons, but some of the more powerful ones are melee touch. Wands basically have a damage value comperable to standard weapons, but trigger a magical effect on a critical. For example:



I need a Rogue with two of these things. All attacks as touch attacks + Sneak Attack OH YEAH!




Basically, the goal is to make spells more unique -- nothing duplicates spells. Even potions are not allowed to function identically to spells.

So... Making the most powerful classes in the game even less replicatiable and making the most powerful effects in the game even less accessible.

No buffs for the Fighter (unless your caster takes an action) no handy wand action for the Rogue (Wands of Silence, Knock, and Invis make that difficult theft so much easier)

Making the Wizard's "Everything you can do I can do better" even more true is a design philosophy I cannot get behind.

"particularly items like wands that produce magic much more easily and in greater volume than PCs ever could."

This is simply untrue... Yes, with a wand you can cast the same spell 50 times. They are however rather on the expensive side of life to use, they also suck for Caster Level. Yes, wands make magic accessible to mid level mundanes but they will still be crushed by a true caster in every possible way. (Casters can have more actions, more damage, better AC, be literally impossible to hit, better skill checks, the list goes on)

[wayfare]

I need a Rogue with two of these things. All attacks as touch attacks + Sneak Attack OH YEAH!




So... Making the most powerful classes in the game even less replicatiable and making the most powerful effects in the game even less accessible.

No buffs for the Fighter (unless your caster takes an action) no handy wand action for the Rogue (Wands of Silence, Knock, and Invis make that difficult theft so much easier)

Making the Wizard's "Everything you can do I can do better" even more true is a design philosophy I cannot get behind.

"particularly items like wands that produce magic much more easily and in greater volume than PCs ever could."

This is simply untrue... Yes, with a wand you can cast the same spell 50 times. They are however rather on the expensive side of life to use, they also suck for Caster Level. Yes, wands make magic accessible to mid level mundanes but they will still be crushed by a true caster in every possible way. (Casters can have more actions, more damage, better AC, be literally impossible to hit, better skill checks, the list goes on)

Ah, this post. I was expecting you. :)

OK, if you don't think magic item crafting is a problem with casters, we've been playing very different games. Not saying that you are wrong, just saying that my experience with casters is often "lets carry unlimited healing so we don't have to make difficult choices with spells" or "Only morons waste spell slots on blasting when you could just have a wand for that".

Also, in terms of cost, wands don't really hurt too much, espe cilly if you are the one doing the crafting.

Now, I can sort of get behind your logic of taking the exclusivity from casters, but what that requires is that you make a very specific build for your character that is, in effect a really bad caster. I can't get past that logic. Fighters should be able to fight, rogues should be able to sneak and stab -- both should be able to do their thing without any help beyong a magic item or two.

The classes we are running are very, very different that what you get in core. The game only goes up to 10th level, and magic has been hit hard, both with limited spell lists and limited spell choices. I won't go into particulars, because that's a whole other bag of fish, but non casters have been given advantages that, when combined with the nerfbat already taken to casters, makes them playable and even cool.

I mean, look at what I've already described I terms of ritual -- no more nice outsider allies that can replace your entire party without a really long ritual. No more infinite money loops. No more "let me cast this spell that makes us safe from everything until my spells recharge" -- in order to cast that spell you already need to be safe...for at least an hour. The best part? Anybody can use rituals, just like anybody can use magic devices -- in fact, it is not assumed that casters can use rituals or magic devices. Unless you invest in Arcana/Religion/Nature you cannot perform rituals. If you did not invest in UMD, you cannot use scrolls, wands and the like -- your class doesn't matter.

And yes, there are easy ways for non casters to get these skills. You can have ALL of them and still be a fighter.

[The Mentalist]

Ah, this post. I was expecting you. :)


Good.



OK, if you don't think magic item crafting is a problem with casters, we've been playing very different games. Not saying that you are wrong, just saying that my experience with casters is often "lets carry unlimited healing so we don't have to make difficult choices with spells" or "Only morons waste spell slots on blasting when you could just have a wand for that".


Yes, we do play VERY different games in this case.



Also, in terms of cost, wands don't really hurt too much, espe cilly if you are the one doing the crafting.


That debate can go on for days, some people find it worth it some people find it to be an absolute waste for a caster to make wands for their own use.



Now, I can sort of get behind your logic of taking the exclusivity from casters, but what that requires is that you make a very specific build for your character that is, in effect a really bad caster. I can't get past that logic. Fighters should be able to fight, rogues should be able to sneak and stab -- both should be able to do their thing without any help beyong a magic item or two.


Specific build? It's a skillpoint a level, maybe some WBL investment but I see your point.



The classes we are running are very, very different that what you get in core. The game only goes up to 10th level, and magic has been hit hard, both with limited spell lists and limited spell choices. I won't go into particulars, because that's a whole other bag of fish, but non casters have been given advantages that, when combined with the nerfbat already taken to casters, makes them playable and even cool.


Y'see this is what needed to be mentioned in the original post. If casters don't have "I WIN" buttons while mundanes are trying to get more than 40 damage out then I can see the need for this in your games, in a standard game though it's awful for balance. You have my support.




I mean, look at what I've already described I terms of ritual -- no more nice outsider allies that can replace your entire party without a really long ritual. No more infinite money loops. No more "let me cast this spell that makes us safe from everything until my spells recharge" -- in order to cast that spell you already need to be safe...for at least an hour. The best part? Anybody can use rituals, just like anybody can use magic devices -- in fact, it is not assumed that casters can use rituals or magic devices. Unless you invest in Arcana/Religion/Nature you cannot perform rituals. If you did not invest in UMD, you cannot use scrolls, wands and the like -- your class doesn't matter.


If it works for your games then I'm more than willing to help you balance these.



And yes, there are easy ways for non casters to get these skills. You can have ALL of them and still be a fighter.

Again, I want a Rogue with wand Sneak Attacks.

[wayfare]

Good.



Yes, we do play VERY different games in this case.



That debate can go on for days, some people find it worth it some people find it to be an absolute waste for a caster to make wands for their own use.



Specific build? It's a skillpoint a level, maybe some WBL investment but I see your point.



Y'see this is what needed to be mentioned in the original post. If casters don't have "I WIN" buttons while mundanes are trying to get more than 40 damage out then I can see the need for this in your games, in a standard game though it's awful for balance. You have my support.




If it works for your games then I'm more than willing to help you balance these.



Again, I want a Rogue with wand Sneak Attacks.


Wand sneak attacks are awesome for players but oh so painful for DMs, lol.

Sorry if I came off as abrasive -- too little sleep over the last few days.

One of the goals of this project, that has been hashed out over play, is giving other classes the ability to have meaningful effects on the battlefield and out of it. The opposite was true of casters -- we wanted to take casters down to tier 3 or 4. We accomplished this by

1) Giving casters a limited number of spell slots they have to spread over all spells. Each spell costs a number of slots equal to its level to memorize, so you have to make choices when it comes to higher level spells. Without assistence, most casters will cap out at 27-30 slots. With help its more like 33-35. At the optimistic end of that spectrum, thats 7 level 5 spells you cam memorize, and then you are out of spells for the day.
Of course, that leads to stuff like...

2)"Cool, I Got a Spell for That" is much harder to do. Divine casters only learn spells from domains, and cap out at 6 domains known by level 10. After 2nd level spells, arcane casters can only learn spells from one school. Both spell lists have been hit hard to turn game-breakers into rituals. Yeah, you can still rope trick or fabricate, but it costs money and has a casting time in hours. Worse, its a skill check with a number of checks required equal to the Spell level. Each check takes an hour, so your rope trick takes some time to actually be useful. Fabricate takes at least 5 hours to perform, if you don't mess up.
Of course, this makes summoning a bit harder to do meaningfully...

3) Summoning creatures can be done, but typically has a duration in hours. Summoning is very dangerous, as a failed roll will result in a very angry, very free creature. Since most summoning spells are rituals, it is best to cast them into scrolls, then use the scroll before the battle -- if you have no time to prep, scrolls are useless to you. Also, characters are limited to one summoning effect active at a time.

I know these games typically turn into casters using the victory button while the fighter sits on his hands, but we've tried to minimize it. This is a very ground-up rebuild of the game -- my group has been working on it for about a year and it has some good promise.

Thanks for the help, all. I know these seem like minor changes, but they are really significant to the game. Since anyone (even the fighter) can dabble in magic ritualism and magic devices, these changes help to flesh out a magic system thats just very different from 3.5. Any more suggestions are appreciated!

[Deepbluediver]

I definitely think that these types of magic items could benefit from a reworking to make them more interesting than just spells-on-a-stick. In addition it seems like people love to play rules-lawyer and use these magic items in every way but that which was intended. (Plus for some reason, having wands with charges always felt very Harry Potter-ish to me; not at all like heroic fantasy. But that's probably just a personal thing.)

The "Ritual" idea for scrolls isn't bad, I think, but it also necessitates altering the way the whole spell-system works, and requires your group to agree on what constitutes a ritual and what doesn't. Of the three types of UMD items, I have the least experience with scrolls, since most of the campaigns I've played where pretty short or one-shots (and hence little or no time for crafting) and the DMs where always stingy with the magic parchment.

I don't have a problem with scrolls being used to store spells, so long as they have some kind of expiration date to prevent players from stockpiling a bajillion of the things and completely circumventing the spells-per-day-limit.

For wands and staffs, I've played games that used both of the following alterations (but not both in the same game).

Wands came in two varieties; the first gave a boost to all spells of a particular type (i.e. either conjuration spells or spells with the [fire] descriptor, etc) by increasing the save DC and/or your spellcraft check to oversome SR. The second type was attuned to give a boost to only one particular spell, but eliminated any material component or focus requirement.

Staffs where changed so that they let you cast a particular spell or spells, even if that spell wasn't on your normal spell list of was normally even of the type of magic you used. You had to have the staff in your possession when you prepared and cast the spell, and it still consumed a spell slot, but they wheren't always the SAME spells slots as normal (you could find staffs with metamagic variants already applied). Obviously the DM who ran this variation didn't go for the "magic market" setup, nearly everything we used was either found (treasure) or specifically constructed (via a mini side-quest).

[DiBastet]

I would love to see some of your homebrew material, fellow playgrounder. I have my very own fixes and reworks that make casters and non-casters closer in utility, and actually made the combat-focused characters very cool, even adding "skill perks" that grant new abilities to skills at certain levels.

Gonna say that I absolutely love the simple idea of using knowledge in place of use magic device. I already use the knowledges arcana, divine and nature for our own rituals, and all knowledges have other utilities: You can them in the place of other skills, but with -3 ranks for the purpose of perks. For example, nobility as socialize; martial as intimidate; geography as survival, etc etc. It's an excelent addition to my rules. Gonna incorporate them now.

I also don't like the spell items in general. I'm gonna use scrolls exactly as you suggested and ban wands as we know (never liked them, and I already use "implements" to increase the power of certain schools / work as metamagic rods); and use staffs as the pathfinder version or with unique powers, as the other fellow playgrounder suggested.

But I'm thinking about the potions. What about potions?

[wayfare]

I would love to see some of your homebrew material, fellow playgrounder. I have my very own fixes and reworks that make casters and non-casters closer in utility, and actually made the combat-focused characters very cool, even adding "skill perks" that grant new abilities to skills at certain levels.

Gonna say that I absolutely love the simple idea of using knowledge in place of use magic device. I already use the knowledges arcana, divine and nature for our own rituals, and all knowledges have other utilities: You can them in the place of other skills, but with -3 ranks for the purpose of perks. For example, nobility as socialize; martial as intimidate; geography as survival, etc etc. It's an excelent addition to my rules. Gonna incorporate them now.

I also don't like the spell items in general. I'm gonna use scrolls exactly as you suggested and ban wands as we know (never liked them, and I already use "implements" to increase the power of certain schools / work as metamagic rods); and use staffs as the pathfinder version or with unique powers, as the other fellow playgrounder suggested.

But I'm thinking about the potions. What about potions?

Thanks for the encouragement!

Here is what my group is working on interms of potions:

My solution for potions is to have learnable "Potion Recipies" that are based on the Alchemy skill.

Potion recipies are rated on a 1-5 scale, sort of like spell levels. Recipe Level does not limit the level required to create the potions, but determinmes the number of unique ingredients required to make the potion (plus the base cost of the potion).

Level 1-2 potions do not require special ingredients -- the base creation cost is all that is needed to create the potion.

Level 3-4 potions require 1 special ingredient -- Giant Lizard Scale, Dust from an previously animated skeleton, adder fang, etc. The special items required should be relatively easy to get at this point, enough so that there is a market for these items.

Level 5 potions require 2 special ingredients or 1 very hard to find ingredient (wyvern scale, imp blood, carrion crawler brain juice, etc).

The Recipe level also determines the DC for creating the potion, Which is DC 15 + (Recipe Level x 2). To compensate for the lack of special ingredient, you can increase the multiplier by 1.

Following a recipe takes 8 hours. Every 2 hours you must make an Alchemy test against the potion creation DC. If you succeed at all checks, the potion is created. Failing even one check ruins the potion (a feat can allow you one failure).

In our games, potions do not duplicate spell effects From Core. Healing potions usually grant varying ammounts of fast healing. Potions that cure disease and the like allow you saving throws to shake off the effect (with a bonus to the roll based on the potion level). Potions that grant abilities similar to spell effects are worked to be slightly different -- a potion could grant firebreathing instead of the ability to cast fireball. A potion of invisibility just gives you a huge camouflage bonus to hide rolls (and is probably called a potion of blending).

All this is not to say that a caster cannot be create potions. A caster can create potions, but it is a skill that does not require magic to function. Potions are entirely given over to alchemy, so that players who want a more "weird science" character can play that character.

[DiBastet]

very interesting. i for myself created a similar system for my players. it goes more or less like this:

You can create any kind of effect that you want with your potion, specially things not covered in spells (a potion that sustain 1 turn / level effects until end of combat? Check. potion that turns you into a hotie permanently? Check); the player designs the effect, with as many details as he wants. The DM then determinates what equivalent in spell / stance / mistery / utterance / whatever this would be a little similar (this sets the Toxity level of the potion), and sets an "cl" for the potion, the basic DC being 5 + CL, as pathfinder crafting; and decides other aspects of the potion. The dm never tells the DC to the players.

The player can tell add limitating details to the potion, to the extent of his imagination (this potion only works on wookies; is only for this character; only works for virgins; has a higher toxity; turns blue for 1 h / cl, etc etc), and the DM assigns a number from -0 to -5 to the DC for each of these.

The player can also choose to force a certain quality (like smaller toxity than usual; force the duration to be EXACTLY what he wants; etc etc), and the DM increases the DC from +0 to +5 for each quality forced besides the basic effect and duration.

With the final DC, the player then crafts. A potion needs 1 hour / toxity level to be created, but needs only 10 min / toxity level of active work to be done. if the player doesn't make the DC, but would make it without the minuses from the qualities forced, he makes the potion, but without what he asked. If he fails the basic DC, then the potion is wasted and with strange effects, but you can only know if it worked with use or with a craft check DC +5.

In any case, the crafter can, then, write a formula. Following a formula decreases the DC by -2. After the formula is created, the character can always try to improve on the formula, forcing different qualities on the recipe, and then making a new, improved recipe.

every potion has a toxity level. Each time a person drinks a potion, he adds the toxity. One can only have toxity in his blood up to his CON value and suffer no ill effects. After CON, the person takes 1 WIS burn (burn, not damage) for each toxity above. After 1-1/2 CON, he takes 1 WIS and 1 CON burn for each point. An extended rest resets toxity, as can potions designed specially to do that.


The players absolutely LOVED this new system, and helped A LOT in npc creation. I don't need to browse thru lots of spells nd think on CLs and whatever. i only need to think about an effect, create the cost for the potion (after some long years it's easy to wing it), and just buy it for the npc. On the other hand, the players want to create all kinds of cool custom potion with effects usually outside the powers they can access.

I really thank you for the inspiration.

[wayfare]

very interesting. i for myself created a similar system for my players. it goes more or less like this:

You can create any kind of effect that you want with your potion, specially things not covered in spells (a potion that sustain 1 turn / level effects until end of combat? Check. potion that turns you into a hotie permanently? Check); the player designs the effect, with as many details as he wants. The DM then determinates what equivalent in spell / stance / mistery / utterance / whatever this would be a little similar (this sets the Toxity level of the potion), and sets an "cl" for the potion, the basic DC being 5 + CL, as pathfinder crafting; and decides other aspects of the potion. The dm never tells the DC to the players.

The player can tell add limitating details to the potion, to the extent of his imagination (this potion only works on wookies; is only for this character; only works for virgins; has a higher toxity; turns blue for 1 h / cl, etc etc), and the DM assigns a number from -0 to -5 to the DC for each of these.

The player can also choose to force a certain quality (like smaller toxity than usual; force the duration to be EXACTLY what he wants; etc etc), and the DM increases the DC from +0 to +5 for each quality forced besides the basic effect and duration.

With the final DC, the player then crafts. A potion needs 1 hour / toxity level to be created, but needs only 10 min / toxity level of active work to be done. if the player doesn't make the DC, but would make it without the minuses from the qualities forced, he makes the potion, but without what he asked. If he fails the basic DC, then the potion is wasted and with strange effects, but you can only know if it worked with use or with a craft check DC +5.

In any case, the crafter can, then, write a formula. Following a formula decreases the DC by -2. After the formula is created, the character can always try to improve on the formula, forcing different qualities on the recipe, and then making a new, improved recipe.

every potion has a toxity level. Each time a person drinks a potion, he adds the toxity. One can only have toxity in his blood up to his CON value and suffer no ill effects. After CON, the person takes 1 WIS burn (burn, not damage) for each toxity above. After 1-1/2 CON, he takes 1 WIS and 1 CON burn for each point. An extended rest resets toxity, as can potions designed specially to do that.


The players absolutely LOVED this new system, and helped A LOT in npc creation. I don't need to browse thru lots of spells nd think on CLs and whatever. i only need to think about an effect, create the cost for the potion (after some long years it's easy to wing it), and just buy it for the npc. On the other hand, the players want to create all kinds of cool custom potion with effects usually outside the powers they can access.

I really thank you for the inspiration.

Glad I could help!

Any other thoughts on these items?

[Absol197]

When I experimented with magic items, here's what I did:

--Rods and staves are foci. Staves basically functioned exactly as you have them, an increase to caster level. Rods gave a bigger boost, such as a higher CL increase and one or two added effects, but only applied to a specific type of spell (usually a bit more focused than just school).

--Wands were like magic batteries. You could store a number of spell levels in a wand, and then use those spell levels to cast the spells you had prepared, without expending the spell from your spells per day. Once you run out of spell levels, the wand is just a stick once more. I think the most powerful wands had like twenty spell levels, or somesuch.

--Scrolls and potions I left the same.