A though on Incarnum.

[Metahuman1]

This is just a random though that hit me when I was trying to go to bed last night and has yet to leave me in peace. So I'm hoping that by getting a little feed back on it it will stop nagging me.


So, Meldshapers have to have 8 hours of rest and 1 hour of meditation to Shape there soul melds. This is basically the same as a Spell caster who prepares spells needing time to rest and then ready there spells.


But here was the though: What if Incarnum classes/users were similar to Martial Adepts/Maneuver users? What if they only needed 5 or 10 minutes to meditate/focus/gather there energy/Prey/what ever it is there doing to Shape new/different soul melds? How much more powerful, and versitial, do the Incarnum classes become? Do they now go into higher Tiers?

Anyway, it's not for a particular game, at least at this time, but it seemed and interesting idea and I'm curious to see what the playground thinks of it.

[Glimbur]

There are a lot of situational soul melds, so this change would be an improvement. For example, no one uses the Sailor's Bracers unless they expect to be on the water today, but with your change if the party finds an underground river with a skiff on it they can roll with it better. Elemental resistance and possession resistance* are also available via soulmelds. It wouldn't make a difference of a tier, but it would help.

[Particle_Man]

It would be nice. Would you also have this apply to the incarnum feats, or is the essentia still "locked in" for 24 hours?

[kestrel404]

First, both Incarnate and Totemist get this. The Incarnate has 'Rapid Meldshaping N/Day' while the totemist gets "Rebind Totem Soulmeld N/Day". While it would be a slight improvement to basically be able to do this at will, it's not really going to have a huge impact - definitely no shift in tier.

Second, I would be quite willing to offer this as an option to players - at the cost of a feat. Just like Swordsages basically need Adaptive Style to function, this would be a 'just about everyone takes it because it's awesome' feat. It would read something like:
Adaptive Soulshaping
Requirements: The ability to shape soulmelds
Description: If you have the ability to shape additional soulmelds, you may meditate for 1 minute and shape any soulmeld you are capable of shaping and which is legal for you to shape. You may do this a number of times per day equal to your constitution modifier.

This provides limited flexibility (which the various classes need, though not desperately) while not significantly changing play. Does that work?

[Big Fau]

While it would be a slight improvement to basically be able to do this at will, it's not really going to have a huge impact - definitely no shift in tier.

Well, not a true shift, but some people contest that the Incarnate is Tier 3 and the Totemist is Tier 4, vice versa, both are Tier 3, or both are Tier 4. With this, they are guaranteed to be Tier 3, and very high up there at that.

[Coidzor]

It'd make it so that dispels weren't quite as much of a hassle, IIRC, and I think that and a bit of improved versatility would be the main effects.

[Metahuman1]

First, both Incarnate and Totemist get this. The Incarnate has 'Rapid Meldshaping N/Day' while the totemist gets "Rebind Totem Soulmeld N/Day". While it would be a slight improvement to basically be able to do this at will, it's not really going to have a huge impact - definitely no shift in tier.

Second, I would be quite willing to offer this as an option to players - at the cost of a feat. Just like Swordsages basically need Adaptive Style to function, this would be a 'just about everyone takes it because it's awesome' feat. It would read something like:
Adaptive Soulshaping
Requirements: The ability to shape soulmelds
Description: If you have the ability to shape additional soulmelds, you may meditate for 1 minute and shape any soulmeld you are capable of shaping and which is legal for you to shape. You may do this a number of times per day equal to your constitution modifier.

This provides limited flexibility (which the various classes need, though not desperately) while not significantly changing play. Does that work?

I don't know about that one so much. It's still not as powerful as full casting or Psionic Manifesting, at best it's as powerful as Martial Maneuvers and Binding. Is it really so formidable/redundant then to just let them swap out for the right tool when they happen to have it and not say "But only if you cheese out your Con and burn a feat."

[Ernir]

I think this might be going on my list of houserules.

Not that it'll be enough to get my RL players to learn Incarnum, but... :smallbiggrin:


As for making this a feat... I'd be more inclined to give Adaptive Style for free than to make a feat like this. Seriously, meldshapers don't need more feat taxes.

[kestrel404]

I don't know about that one so much. It's still not as powerful as full casting or Psionic Manifesting, at best it's as powerful as Martial Maneuvers and Binding. Is it really so formidable/redundant then to just let them swap out for the right tool when they happen to have it and not say "But only if you cheese out your Con and burn a feat."

Shrug. I like mid-tier-3 power level. Giving incarnum users unlimited access to all soulmelds (which is what you're suggesting) makes every incarnum user at least a very strong tier 3, verging on tier 2 (definitely tier 2 if you allow changing chakra binds the same way). I'm just suggesting limits that keep things where I think they should be.

[Ernir]

Versatility can never bring a character up to Tier 2 on JaronK's tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=5c4oukpvpqufreev4mfkcg89f6&topic=5293) (in case we are talking about different systems), which is defined by its lack of versatility.
In addition, the only ability that meldshapers get which is powerful enough to bring a class into T1/T2 is the Incarnate's Gate, which isn't affected by this houserule.

As-is, the classes (excepting the Soulborn, as always) are in the range of low T3 to high T4. They can handle the boost. The Dread Necromancers and Beguilers still can't complain.

It's not going to break anything. It's "just" going to make the classes more useful in more situations, by making the more limited melds more accessible. They'd be more T3-ish than before.

[Bonzai]

I like it. I've played a lot of Incarnum, and as a Soulborn my biggest complaint was that I had no way of swapping melds without a full nights rest... at least pre-epic. Incarnum users have some great tools at their disposal. The agrivation comes from encountering a situation that you were unprepared for, knowing you have the tool for the job, but being unable to access it unless you want to slow the party down to wait till your ready. I went so far as to suggest to the DM a feat that lets you reshape a meld once per day, but having it take 10 minutes. He was inclined to allow it too.

From a power perspective, it wouldn't be over whelming. Wizards already have things like alarcious cogitation and amulets that let them swap out spells. Clerics can spontaneous cast with the right feats, and so on. I certainly think it would make incarnum classes a lot more fun by not having to gimp yourself with situationally usefull melds just in case.

[Chronos]

Of course, if you're comparing to spellcasters, you should also note that incarnum users don't need to reshape melds at all. If you've got a few melds that you really love and use all the time, you can keep them shaped for years if you want, even if you never get a good night's rest or have an hour to spare in the morning.

[Darth Stabber]

Keep in mind that if a meldshaper does not sleep, they don't loose the melds/binds that are in place. If you have a "general purpose" set of melds/binds you can pull an all-nighter and still have it on. You only need to rest + meditate to redo your stuff. Your incarnum feats are automatically divested after 24hrs (which really should be on remeld instead, but meh), giving you essentia back automatically, and allowing you to reinvest again as soon as that happens. Now you do loose out on the opportunity to customize for the day, but if you have no idea what you'll need, then there isn't much difference (unless you had on a specialized set from the previous day).

I have played totemists who have gone 5-6 sessions before they change their meld/bind build. This is, admittedly, a bigger problem for incarnates than for totemist and soulborn (soulborn has 1000 bigger problems), and any change will be of slightly greater utility to incarnates, though totemists would certainly appreciate it too.

[Person_Man]

A key strength of being a meldshaper is that you have access to all 45ish soulmelds of your class at 1st level. Each soulmeld also has at least one secondary power gained through a chakra bind (which is sometimes unrelated to the base ability), and many soulmelds provide bonuses to multiple different and sometimes unrelated Skills.

So unless you have an amazing memory and/or your DM lets you keep a laptop open with a spreadsheet and/or handbooks on it, for most players in most games it would be impractical to change soulmelds on a regular basis in the middle of a game session, unless you were to limit the classes to a medium sized pool of "soulmelds known" and "soulmelds readied" similar to Tome of Battle classes. And if you did do that, most players still wouldn't pick highly situational soulmelds, just as most players rarely pick highly situational spells.

Having said that, it's not a bad idea. The author should have just done a better job of writing soulmelds.