[3.5] Ur-Priest Eldritch Disciple Caster Level?

[Laniius]

Ok, if I was a Warlock 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 1, what would my Ur-Priest Caster Level be?

Ur-Priest's caster level = their class level plus 1/2 other caster levels; is this only for base classes or do prestige classes count in this? So would my caster level be

2 from ur-priest + (5/2) from warlock + 1 from eldritch disciple = 7.5 = 5

or

(5 + 1)/2 from warlock and eldritch disciple + 2 from ur-priest + 1 from eldritch disciple = 6

or something else entirely?

[Jasdoif]

It's more specific than just "other caster levels".
To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)Emphasis mine.


Warlock isn't a spellcasting class.

Eldritch Disciple isn't a spellcasting class either (since it grants no spellcasting of its own), and the first level of Eldritch Disciple doesn't advance your divine spellcasting.

Your Ur-Priest caster level is 2.


EDIT: Forgot to cite the class entry.

[gorfnab]

If you're planning to play that build see if your DM can handwave/houserule that Warlock would count for the caster level calculations of Ur-Priest. For a build in this case I usually recommend the standard Hellfire Ur-Lock: Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 8 (or Mindbender 1/ Eldritch Disciple 7 for Mindsight).

Just a side note: Warlock 5 doesn't qualify for Ur-Priest because you need a base Fort save of +3 for Ur-Priest.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As per Jasdoif's quote, you do not count prestige class levels that advance another class's casting when determining your Ur-Priest caster level. The only exception to this is Mystic Theurge, which has a unique wording regarding caster level.

I'll disagree that Warlock is not considered a spellcasting class. As per Complete Arcane page 18, you can advance Warlock with "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige classes just like any other spellcasting class, the only difficulty is in qualifying for them.

You would count half your Warlock class level toward your Ur-Priest caster level, but you do not count levels in prestige classes that advance your Warlock caster level. Just take Practiced Spellcaster and you should be fine. If you want an inflated Ur-Priest caster level, you'll need to use Mystic Theurge as that's the only prestige class that contains the unique/broken wording on caster level calculation.

[Jasdoif]

I'll disagree that Warlock is not considered a spellcasting class. As per Complete Arcane page 18, you can advance Warlock with "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige classes just like any other spellcasting class, the only difficulty is in qualifying for them.That's a specific exception for prestige classes taken by a warlock. A specific exception that exists because the warlock is not a spellcasting class (by virtue of not having a spellcasting progression), and would not qualify for those benefits without it.

Also, this is on the same page in Complete Arcane:
A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells.Emphasis mine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a specific exception for prestige classes taken by a warlock. A specific exception that exists because the warlock is not a spellcasting class (by virtue of not having a spellcasting progression), and would not qualify for those benefits without it.

Also, this is on the same page in Complete Arcane:Emphasis mine.

It could just be a clarification, in case someone mistakenly presumes that Warlock is not a spellcasting class.


I actually agree that RAW, Warlock is not a spellcasting class (as per the PHB glossary definition of "Spellcaster"). However, it is clear that Warlock is intended to function as though it were a spellcasting class in many situations, they're just too varied for them to get everything covered with specific exceptions. It would be entirely reasonable for a DM to allow Warlock levels to contribute toward a player's Ur-Priest caster level, considering Warlock gets to pretend it's a spellcasting class with regard to most of the prestige classes it can benefit from anyway. It's not going to break the game like adding 150% of your Mystic Theurge levels to your Ur-Priest caster level, so why not allow it?

[Jasdoif]

I actually agree that RAW, Warlock is not a spellcasting class (as per the PHB glossary definition of "Spellcaster"). However, it is clear that Warlock is intended to function as though it were a spellcasting class in many situations, they're just too varied for them to get everything covered with specific exceptions. It would be entirely reasonable for a DM to allow Warlock levels to contribute toward a player's Ur-Priest caster level, considering Warlock gets to pretend it's a spellcasting class with regard to most of the prestige classes it can benefit from anyway. It's not going to break the game like adding 150% of your Mystic Theurge levels to your Ur-Priest caster level, so why not allow it?First...could you explain the special-ness of the Mystic Theurge in this case? I'm not an expert on the Ur-Priest, and I can't find a functional difference between how the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Disciple determine their dual progressing (other than the obvious difference between arcane/invocation and that Eldritch Disciple doesn't advance divine at its first level).

Second, I try to avoid making any assumptions of DM behavior except in extreme and obvious cases...and this doesn't look like such a case to me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First...could you explain the special-ness of the Mystic Theurge in this case? I'm not an expert on the Ur-Priest, and I can't find a functional difference between how the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Disciple determine their dual progressing (other than the obvious difference between arcane/invocation and that Eldritch Disciple doesn't advance divine at its first level).


Spells per Day

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

You specifically get to add your level of Mystic Theurge to your level in your arcane spellcasting class, and to your Ur-Priest level, and then determine your caster level afterward. Thus, to determine your Ur-Priest caster level, you add your Mystic Theurge level to your Ur-Priest level, and you also add your Mystic Theurge level to your arcane spellcasting class level. A Wizard X/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge Y would add (2+Y) Ur-Priest levels plus 1/2 of (X+Y) Wizard levels to determine his Ur-Priest caster level. It won't ever give you a caster level of more your character level +2, but you won't have to take Practiced Spellcaster for Ur-Priest. A Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 7 can cast 9th level spells at character level 15, and adds Ur-Priest 9 to 1/2 of Wizard 12 for a caster level of 15 with zero effort.