Immortality Through Reincarnate : Working ?

[Johel]

Hi, all,

I have a question regarding Reincarnate :


With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

The key here is that it create a entirely new young adult body.
But does it extend the lifespawn accordingly as well ?

For exemple, let's imagine our adventurer is a 70 years old human.
He doesn't know when he is going to die but he sure knows it is going to be soon.
Being the living legend that he is, he happens to know a 7th level Elf Druid who, given the ridiculously long lifespan of elves, is probably still alive.
He contacts the Druid and somehow convince him that it would be nice to have the living legend coming back 50 years younger.
And that reincarnation might be the key, here.

They discuss and study the spell.
They determine the following :

There is 15% chances of the subject coming back as a human
There is 57% chances of him coming back as another "friendly" race.
There is 28% chances of him becoming something else.
If they try twice, there is only 8% chances of him becoming something else.
If they try thrice, there is only 2% chances of him becoming something else.
All subjects seem really weaker or less capable than their previous selves (the loss of level or constitution)


They cannot determine, however, if the reincarnation would also allow the subject to lengthen its lifespawn :
Most previous users were historically adventurers and those don't tend to die quietly in their sleep.

They do it anyway :
Nothing to lose, really...

Our venerable human adventurer comes back as an young adult Elf !!
Does he still have 2d20 years to live, as with his first body ?
Or does he now have 240+4d100 years to live, as most young elves would ?

[JonRG]

He has to commit suicide before dying of old age, but repeated casts could extend his life indefinitely.1

1 Until Mechanus grows tired of his shenanigans and sics a Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) on him. :smallannoyed:

[hamishspence]

If I was feeling like a real git- I'd say "It works just like in real life legends- that is- you start over with no memories of your past life and skills"

So- if you are Reincarnated, you start over at 1st level (possibly with randomly generated stats as well).

[Morph Bark]

Or does he now have 240+4d100 years to live, as most young elves would ?

This.

His race and age categories have been changed. He is, for all intents and purposes, now a young adult elf. And young adult elves don't die of old age at 150. :smallwink:

[JonRG]

A wild Marut appears!

See? Darn inevitables.

[gbprime]

If I was feeling like a real git- I'd say "It works just like in real life legends- that is- you start over with no memories of your past life and skills"

So- if you are Reincarnated, you start over at 1st level (possibly with randomly generated stats as well).

Except that's expressly NOT how reincarnate works. The OP is correct, Reincarnate works just fine as a sort of serial immortality. All it costs you is an experience level every time you pull it off (or 500xp if you own a Thought Bottle) and the desire to put up with a completely random body.

Lifespan is no big deal in the game system anyway. But if you really feel like messing with the player who does this, just have something happen between the casting of the spell and the hour later when his body is ready, so he wakes up with a dead druid NPC and all his stuff has been stolen.

Then of course there's gender reversal hilarity. How does Thomas the Heroic feel about being female? How does he feel about being a female goblin?

The easy way to prevent the whole thing, though, is to give the player a character bonus, template, or PrC which makes him an Outsider. Outsiders cannot be reincarnated.

[The Glyphstone]

If I was feeling like a real git- I'd say "It works just like in real life legends- that is- you start over with no memories of your past life and skills"

So- if you are Reincarnated, you start over at 1st level (possibly with randomly generated stats as well).

That's fine, but you should be honest at that point and just remove Reincarnate from the game entirely, because no one will ever cast it, ever. Not even NPCs would bother at that point.

[hamishspence]

It would be more if the player said they planned on living forever that way - and it raised the question of how come every high level druid in past ages hasn't done that already.

[Johel]

Ok, thank you all for your input.
So, mechanically, it does provide immortality.

But RP-wise, it is not used because :

7th Level Druid are rare.
It is cheating the natural cycle of life and druids aren't keen on doing that
Most people aren't keen on trusting somebody else to bring them back.
Maruts would start popping daily if it is used regularily.


Second question :


A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

In D&D, aging bring advantages and disadvantages.
Physical abilities decrease sharply.
Mental abilities increase slightly.

Would these penalties/bonus carry on to the next body ?
It would seems logic that the mental ability bonus are kept, as this is basically the result of experience.
But for the physical ability penalties, I'm not sure.
Common sense would say that, since they were the result of the body degenerating, they would be lift with a new body.
But common sense and magic aren't exactly best budies.

Could our human adventurer :

Be reincarnated into short-lived creatures
Age and benefit from mental ability bonus
Suicide
Be reincarnated again into short-lived creatures
Keep the previous benefits
Age and benefit AGAIN from mental ability bonus
Suicide
....


With the half-orc, he would basically have cycles of 45 years.
And after 5 centuries of roaming the Earth, he would have +33 in Int, Wis and Cha.
While not likely to be seen in a game (who would have an adventure stretching over 5 centuries of active existance ?), this seems like a nasty trick.

----------------------------------

Also, let's imagine the adventurer would be 4th level when starting this scheme.
He suicide.
He is reincarnated as a level 3
He go adventuring and level up to 4th

What about the ability bonus ?
Does he lose it when he is reincarnated and lose a level ?
Or did he keep the ability bonus ?
Does he get it again when he is level 4 again ?
Or do we ignore it ?

If it somehow stacks, I can imagine our adventurer realising that, sure, he feels a bit uneasy with the body at first (loss of level).
But his mind seems to sharpen after each lifetime.
And, worse (or better) after each large "training quest" he does right after being reincarnated as a way to get used to the body... (level up)
He would therefor be reincarnated as often as his coinage allows him to be.
And quickly become a true MONSTER.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here is a handbook on Immortality...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0

I find Last Breath works better than Reincarnate anyway.

[Piggy Knowles]

It would be more if the player said they planned on living forever that way - and it raised the question of how come every high level druid in past ages hasn't done that already.

How do you know they haven't?

In my last campaign setting, the major druidic order very strongly believed that there were only so many souls, and that each soul had a task, which could only be accomplished after living many lives and through many bodies. The soul was only to move beyond the mortal coil once their task had been completed. All of the high druids had been "alive" for hundreds of years this way.

[Ravens_cry]

I've thought of this as well independently. It works even better in Pathfinder as they made it so Reincarnate does work on those who died of old age, the only one that does I believe, and Witches can also cast it, so you don't have to worry about Nature boy getting all prissy at your perversion of Nature.
A Wish or Miracle will kill you though.
That being said, there is indeed something Druidic about a cycle of death and rebirth, slitting ones throat with a golden sickle, your blood mixed with the oils that form the material component, before returning to the living in a new form.
Fun fact: Mental scores explicitly stay the same after Reincarnation.
Untyped bonuses stack.
Let's just say your mental scores are going to be very high indeed after a few generations of this.

[Kumori]

Also, let's imagine the adventurer would be 4th level when starting this scheme.
He suicide.
He is reincarnated as a level 3
He go adventuring and level up to 4th

What about the ability bonus ?
Does he lose it when he is reincarnated and lose a level ?
Or did he keep the ability bonus ?
Does he get it again when he is level 4 again ?
Or do we ignore it ?

The character would lose the ability score increase granted upon gaining level 4.


Level Loss

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

[Cruiser1]

Untyped bonuses stack.Yes, but not untyped bonuses from the same source. For example, casting Glibness gives you a +30 untyped bonus to Bluff checks, but that doesn't mean you can cast Glibness 10 times in a row to get +300 to your Bluff check.

Similarly, a venerable character has untyped stat bonuses due to aging. After Reincarnation, they still have those bonuses, but once they start aging in their new body the new age bonuses don't stack with the old age bonuses from the previous body.

[Gavinfoxx]

Guyyysss why are you arguing about level loss? Just use Last Breath! Sheesh.

[Kumori]

Guyyysss why are you arguing about level loss? Just use Last Breath! Sheesh.

I don't think there was any argument about level loss... the one guy asked a question and I answered it. They're arguing about other stuff...

And yes, Last Breath is awesome. Thank you for pointing that one out. I didn't know about it until I read your post earlier.

[zelsha]

well as a DM i will say,in the best circumstance,yaa,this is a old school tech to immortality,and not a perversion ,because nature will simply not allow that person to come back ,or the druids to have that spell if the purpose was wrong

so yaa,they can be reincarnate,no stop,but will still cost them,money etc

but they STILL need a druid to do this,and to get that much bonus from ages etc is a no go,in the spell they say

he recalls the *majority* of its former life and form.it retains any class abilities,feats,or skill ranks it formerly possessed,it class,base attack bonus,base save bonuses,and hit points are unchanged SO basically,you need to know *majority* don't mean ALL of his pass live memory,DM can play with that(like the old age loop hole,he forgot the experience of aging,if not that young adult will act like a old dude lol,and that don't fit exactly the description of a young adult),but the creature know what he/she was before

now,for the racial bonus
they said
First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments(since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to the its remaining ability scores

so ,at the DM discretion,this is a new live,the target know what he/she was,but cant recall everything,that person start in age from the beginning,it is a DM choice to leave the aging stats or not,but it CAN create a loophole

no racial loop,racial stats are reset ,then adjustment are done from the reincarnate table the same goes for racial special abilities etc,in my case,i will just leave the skills and don't bother with those much,only for the adjustment to be done with the character new stats

and never forget,they still need a experimented druid to do that spell,or a way to do this again from scrolls etc,npc druids are played by the DM,you just don't want to let them have a easy life,they NEED to work on this,and if they end up with enemies,you can be sure divination etc will at one point let people know a little about the long live behind them,so they can somehow screw the chains

very wise players will alway find a way to return at high level,but high level enemies don't stay on the materials world most of the time,and to get back level can end up been difficult,lots of things can happen before they NEED to be reincarnated again ,and no easy loop hole there (no need of Mecanus unless extreme circumstance lol if that was the case,every Lich will have problems lol,Mecanus need to learn something is wrong there 1st

so ,in the end,it will be a DM choice if they want a old age loop hole bonus stacks,as the character recalls the *majority* of its former life ,players cant have racial loophole (everything that come as racial bonus,bonus stats,bonus abilities,racial bonus skills are replaced by the new race bonus)

and don't forget,they need to still have a way after a long life spawn to have someone who can cast Reincarnate,just play your DM magic there ,if you have reason to play a campaign for so many years in game,why not promote hard work,in the end,just fun for everyone lol

[Johel]

Here is a handbook on Immortality...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0

I find Last Breath works better than Reincarnate anyway.

Thank you for this.
I didn't know Last Breath so it is cool, though more risky (1 round delay only ?)
The guide also gives us the answer to the "Druid problem" with Limited Wish.

Now for the rest :
The level-up ability bonus loop is out
The aging ability bonus loop is... still discussed
The point about "the majority of its former life and form" is another potential bad points (along with the Maruts, the Druidic ethics, level loss, undesirable bodies...)

But at this point, it seems clear that a 13th level Wizard could be immortal if he can have ready :

Scroll of Limited Wish
Material components of Reincarnate / Last Breath (1.000 gp)
A trusted assistant


By "trusted", we mean somebody who can use the scroll and won't just keep it for himself along with the rest of the Wizard's stuff.

So far, the best I got is to groom several assistant.
Each is located in a different location.
Each is provided with a scroll and components.
Each must cast the scroll to duplicate Reincarnate for the Wizard's soul if they don't get any news from him after 5 days.
Each is aware of the existance of other assistants but doesn't know who and where those are.

So each knows that even if he doesn't comply, somebody else will.
And the Wizard will then just have to do the maths to know which little buggers wanted him dead for good.

Ideally, there would be 7 assistants, 1 for each day of the week.
Since Reincarnate has a 1 week maximum delay.
We are counting on a budget of roughly 35.000 gp.
Or 15.000 gp and 2.737 XP.

The Wizard can keep contact through Sending.
This would effectively force him to keep 1 spellslot for this.
But that's a small price for immortality, right ?

He would also have to keep copies of his spellbook safely.

Aaaaaand that's about it.
Immortality with multiple failsafes and a very low cost.
Can be used to create a reccuring villain who isn't afraid to take his time or to take insane physical risks.