View Full Version : The Breaking up of the Order?
Lady Tialait
2012-03-29, 10:24 PM
When V's crimes are found out, i'm sure that the only one to back him up will be Belkar, asking Roy to forgive V. With how focused Roy has been, he may dismiss V. Belkar may follow V to pester him, and prove a role model for him.
However, if Roy does this, Elan and Haley may leave. Elan because he knows the rules of drama, and lives by them. He sees himself becoming the anti-hero, and as such he might end up in a fight with Roy. When friends have conflict, it never goes well. Haley will follow Elan for obvious reasons.
From one group comes three, Durkon and Roy, V and Belkar, Elan and Haley. Who feels the most guilt? V.
Eigenclass
2012-03-29, 10:50 PM
I don't think it'll necessarily go down the way you're saying.
It's true that V screwed up, and screwed up real bad - about as bad as you can screw up outside of betraying the universe to the fiends or (possibly worse) Xykon - but she understands the magnitude of what she did, and is utterly remorseful.
She'll definitely have to answer for her crimes and stand trial, but I don't think anyone in the OOTS would take it upon themselves to be her judge. The OOTS is in the business of world-savin' and villian-thwartin' - Hinjo's the guy that gets paid for presiding over justice (or his magistrates, anyway).
Especially if V is remorseful and compliant, I think the OOTS will support her through this ordeal once they find out what happened and help her make amends.
oppyu
2012-03-29, 11:16 PM
When V's crimes are found out, i'm sure that the only one to back him up will be Belkar, asking Roy to forgive V. With how focused Roy has been, he may dismiss V. Belkar may follow V to pester him, and prove a role model for him.
However, if Roy does this, Elan and Haley may leave. Elan because he knows the rules of drama, and lives by them. He sees himself becoming the anti-hero, and as such he might end up in a fight with Roy. When friends have conflict, it never goes well. Haley will follow Elan for obvious reasons.
From one group comes three, Durkon and Roy, V and Belkar, Elan and Haley. Who feels the most guilt? V.
If there was a split, I'd see it going Haley, Elan, V on one side, and Roy, Durkon, Belkar on the other (Belkar actually could go either way.) If Roy tried to banish V, I think Haley would object most strongly and if she ended up following V, Elan would most probably follow. Durkon and Roy would stick together as Team Lawful, and Belkar would follow whoever he found most amusing if he wasn't already dead.
thereaper
2012-03-29, 11:26 PM
If the Giant wanted to go for a "history repeats itself" motif, this would be too early (it would have to happen after the world was saved). However, seeing as how the current problem is largely the result of the Scribblers splitting up, the opposite is more likely.
ManuelSacha
2012-03-29, 11:40 PM
Belkar, asking Roy to forgive V
I don't see him taking it that much at heart, despite the "welcome to the bottom of the alignment pool" joke.
Belkar may follow V [...] and prove a role model for him.
What.
oppyu
2012-03-29, 11:44 PM
I don't see him taking it that much at heart, despite the "welcome to the bottom of the alignment pool" joke.
What.
Belkar will help V learn the value of modesty, friendship and goodness.
theNater
2012-03-29, 11:52 PM
Roy has actively stood in defense of a known murderer, out of loyalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). Plus, Roy knows as well as anybody that the crucial thing is to keep trying, even if you screw it up now and then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html). So I don't buy that Roy would be unwilling to give V a chance to make amends.
I admit I have less evidence for this, but I also suspect that Elan would forgive V as long as V was really, really, really, really, really sorry.
Math_Mage
2012-03-30, 12:36 AM
Not gonna happen. One of the major themes of Order of the Stick is the contrast between the present party's fundamental unity and the past Order of the Scribble's fundamental discord. The team is family, Nakama, ohana, whatever you want to call it. They don't abandon teammates, not even the murderous evil halfling who crafts disturbing mental images.
Besides, we already had a whole book about splitting the party.
zimmerwald1915
2012-03-30, 02:03 AM
Roy has actively stood in defense of a known murderer, out of loyalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). Plus, Roy knows as well as anybody that the crucial thing is to keep trying, even if you screw it up now and then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html). So I don't buy that Roy would be unwilling to give V a chance to make amends.
Give her a chance? Perhaps. Let her have the slightest bit of autonomy, particularly allowing her to carry her spellbooks and choose which spells to prepare? That's rather more of a risk.
I admit I have less evidence for this, but I also suspect that Elan would forgive V as long as V was really, really, really, really, really sorry.
I'm having trouble buying this. Elan was, after all, perfectly okay with V leaving him, the fleet and Durkon behind after V zapped Kubota. V had a hard enough time convincing Elan to accept her apology for an offended outburst.
Palthera
2012-03-30, 02:42 AM
Give her a chance? Perhaps. Let her have the slightest bit of autonomy, particularly allowing her to carry her spellbooks and choose which spells to prepare? That's rather more of a risk.
I'm having trouble buying this. Elan was, after all, perfectly okay with V leaving him, the fleet and Durkon behind after V zapped Kubota. V had a hard enough time convincing Elan to accept her apology for an offended outburst.
Actually Elan accepted that apology really quickly once V had explained his/her reasoning for the outburst.
And Elan was fine with V leaving because V showed no remorse or even empathy with her/his fellow sentient beings. S/he zapped Kubota out of irritation and then did not care about Therkla dying. THAT is why Elan just let V go, if V was truly sorry after doing a horrible thing Elan is a forgiving person.
theNater
2012-03-30, 02:55 AM
Give her a chance? Perhaps. Let her have the slightest bit of autonomy, particularly allowing her to carry her spellbooks and choose which spells to prepare? That's rather more of a risk.
Roy is not particularly risk-averse, so I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
I'm having trouble buying this. Elan was, after all, perfectly okay with V leaving him, the fleet and Durkon behind after V zapped Kubota.
You'll notice V didn't try to apologize for zapping Kubota, and was unwilling to recognize that there was anything wrong about doing it.
V had a hard enough time convincing Elan to accept her apology for an offended outburst.
Are you talking about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)? While the apology process took a long time, it always struck me as more a result of V's verbosity rather than any reluctance to accept on Elan's part.
One of Roy's arguments about keeping Belkar around is that outside of the order, Belkar would do worse evil. Roy may think the same thing about V, that with V under his command he can keep her from doing more great evils. But there is no reason to believe Roy would dismiss V JUST because V did something really bad. If Roy was so strict, he wouldn't be with Belkar.
Besides, Roy is smart and understands that V is the strongest member of the order by a longshot. Roy understands the magnitude of his quest, too, at least as well as the audience does. It would be moronic of Roy to banish V now when they need her the most.
I could see Roy being so disgusted that he could not mantain a friendship with V after this is all over, but actively standing in the way of V trying to make ammends and intentionally threatening an already precarious universe? No way Roy would do that.
[Elan] sees himself becoming the anti-hero,
All I can say to this is, "Huh?"
RMS Oceanic
2012-03-30, 05:15 AM
If the Giant wanted to go for a "history repeats itself" motif, this would be too early (it would have to happen after the world was saved). However, seeing as how the current problem is largely the result of the Scribblers splitting up, the opposite is more likely.
This, basically. Roy especially has experience with what happens when preceeding generations don't do things properly, and he is definitely not pleased with Girard's obfuscation. If the gates are still an issue once Xykon is defeated, I think he'll be mature enough to recognise that five or six minds are better for defending them than one, and be able to set aside any internal issues. I would also see Haley joining him on this, having largely overcome her trust issues, and recognising her Father's (and Girard's, to a lesser degree) acts as a counterexample. As the natural leaders of the Order, as in they have the natural talent of leadership, I'd be hopeful they'd put the sake of the world above their own disagreements on Law vs Chaos and marshal the surviving Members to protect the gates together.
ThePhantasm
2012-03-30, 05:15 AM
Belkar will help V learn the value of modesty, friendship and goodness.
hahahaha :smallbiggrin:
Seriously though, the Belkar described in the OP doesn't sound like the Belkar from the comics at all....
Killer Angel
2012-03-30, 05:25 AM
Belkar may follow V to pester him
It's more likely it will end with Vaarsuvius killing Belkar. Profecy fullfilled.
Acanous
2012-03-30, 07:20 AM
I don't think V is the most powerful Order member.
While he's a Wizard, he's an Evoker who prohibited Conjuration and kept Enchantment. Transmutation, while very powerful, is pretty much his only god-button. Belkar has shown himself more capable in combat, and from a strictly-potential point, Elan or Haley could diplomance small countries.
Steward
2012-03-30, 07:33 AM
I don't think V is the most powerful Order member.
While he's a Wizard, he's an Evoker who prohibited Conjuration and kept Enchantment. Transmutation, while very powerful, is pretty much his only god-button. Belkar has shown himself more capable in combat, and from a strictly-potential point, Elan or Haley could diplomance small countries.
In theory, sure, but in this comic those things don't hold true. Vaarsuvius's evocations are pretty awesome, the diplomacy skill doesn't seem to be able to turn people -- especially important, high-level NPCs -- into puppets, Belkar is an effective killing machine even though he is a ranger dual-wielding daggers.
I'm not sure if V is really the strongest member (I think Durkon is pretty up there too, as is Belkar, actually) but s/he's definitely an asset to the team and I don't see Roy dropping V from the mission as long as V is contrite.
Forikroder
2012-03-30, 09:42 AM
When V's crimes are found out, i'm sure that the only one to back him up will be Belkar, asking Roy to forgive V. With how focused Roy has been, he may dismiss V. Belkar may follow V to pester him, and prove a role model for him.
However, if Roy does this, Elan and Haley may leave. Elan because he knows the rules of drama, and lives by them. He sees himself becoming the anti-hero, and as such he might end up in a fight with Roy. When friends have conflict, it never goes well. Haley will follow Elan for obvious reasons.
From one group comes three, Durkon and Roy, V and Belkar, Elan and Haley. Who feels the most guilt? V.
Roy still hangs with Belkar despite knowing his past, im pretty sure hell forgive V for his one mistake
Finagle
2012-03-30, 09:48 AM
Nah. V still has to get controlled by the IFC at a critical juncture, thus almost dooming OOTS and the entire world. It won't happen until the climax of the story at Kraagor's Gate, a couple of (real time) years from now.
The more probable scenario in my view is that the Order is broken up by virtue of getting its ass kicked. We know Durkon dies prior to returning home; we know Belkar will die soon (just not when). They have major obstacles between now and the End. Much thinning of the "nine sides" is likely to happen so the story doesn't end in anticlimax. (That is, the Ian-Bozzok and Elan-Tarquin lines will probably close out before O-Chul-MitD, which happens before Roy-Xykon and Eugene-Roy.)
zimmerwald1915
2012-03-30, 12:30 PM
I don't think V is the most powerful Order member.
While he's a Wizard, he's an Evoker who prohibited Conjuration and kept Enchantment. Transmutation, while very powerful, is pretty much his only god-button. Belkar has shown himself more capable in combat, and from a strictly-potential point, Elan or Haley could diplomance small countries.
Evocation is a much-maligned and misunderstood school. The reason PO guides suggest banning it in favor of Conjuration is that most of Evocation's tricks can be duplicated by other schools (and not necessarily all by Conjuration) and because the Conjuration spell list, particularly with splats, is massive and versatile, not because Evocation hasn't got any worthwhile tricks. As for diplomancing small countries, Dominate Person (for the guy in charge) and Mass Suggestion (for the plebs) would like to have a word with you.
As for threatening a precarious universe, V is more dangerous to the universe with the party - and especially in control of her spellbooks - than not, and not just for reasons Roy doesn't know about.
I don't think V is the most powerful Order member.
While he's a Wizard, he's an Evoker who prohibited Conjuration and kept Enchantment. Transmutation, while very powerful, is pretty much his only god-button. Belkar has shown himself more capable in combat, and from a strictly-potential point, Elan or Haley could diplomance small countries.
V is consistently the most useful in large battles. He quite literally did more to turn the tide of the battle at Azure City than every other order member combined. Not to mention the Pit Fiend type, thing, that V effectively one shotted when the rest of the present Order and the best Paladins didn't have a chance in the hells, (sorry.) Or how on the boat when the people where under attack everyone, Durkon included, pretty much acknowledged that V was the best hope of ending the battle quickly. In the context of this comic, V has proven herself time and time again to be more competent and powerful than the rest of the order. Based on the rules, should maybe Durkon be a bit stronger? Maybe, but by level 15 or so I still think a reasonably low op wizard will outshine a reasonably low op cleric.
Kalrany
2012-03-30, 01:34 PM
Nah. V still has to get controlled by the IFC at a critical juncture, thus almost dooming OOTS and the entire world. It won't happen until the climax of the story at Kraagor's Gate, a couple of (real time) years from now.
Why would they need to wait for Kraagor's Gate? My current idol thought: V is separated, in a "temple of illusions" type place -- what a great setting for the IFC to take control and have everyone confused before they have a clue to what is going on (not like Roy and co. have the Familiacide background yet, so it would really blindside them)... Mind you, this is just an idol thought -- there are a number of things that would still have to happen before that could occur, not the least of which is, I think, V dying. (FYI: I believe the trap only knocked out V and Blackwing aka "not dead yet".) There seems to be a Linear Guild arc with Tarquin and co. added for more flavor. [Though, as a side note, it would be interesting if “his competency” killed off the V for any number of reasons (not the least of which is killing his last wife) leaving the IFC with some good access to the gates themselves if they pull out their rental agreement…] And it would be interesting since The Order would be expecting Team Evil instead to make the next move and “wham” – a blindside from the IFC.
Ooooohhhhhh, but what a set up! Can you see the chaos that Team Evil would love to exploit? Or even the more competent members of the Linear Guild? It would really put pressure on the race for Kraagor’s gate as well…
(… so many possible plot twists, so little page space….)
…Ahem… But ignoring my little tangent of possibilities and potential evil cackles, I do have a real question on the IFC arc. Seriously, is there a good reason to wait for the final gate for them? As of right now, that seems to me to be a better Team Evil Epic Showdown setting, which would minimize the IFC arc to some degree. They are a serious threat which really should be given their due, but not to the point of eclipsing Team Evil’s arc, which I think that could happen if everything comes a head at the final gate for all sides of the conflict. (It just feels like there are some real heavy hitters in the game now, and that has to change some of the rules. It’s not the pesky Order popping in to disrupt Team Evil now – the order has some allies, and some additional enemies that are also interested in the prize. Things should just be progressively more serious as time goes by, and I would expect that to be reflected in how each side deals with the others. Which may or may not mean given each due screen time…) Just my thoughts though.
So, yeah, I think my personal feeling is that this would be a good place to focus on the IFC arc and leave the last gate to Team Evil, which makes me wonder what leads the quoted poster (above) to think that the IFC will be at the last gate?
Whew! Sorry for the long winded way to ask, but I wanted to include my rather not-fully-linear mindset so the question was not out of left field. So... how off base am I?
:smallbiggrin:
thereaper
2012-03-30, 01:41 PM
V is consistently the most useful in large battles. He quite literally did more to turn the tide of the battle at Azure City than every other order member combined. Not to mention the Pit Fiend type, thing, that V effectively one shotted when the rest of the present Order and the best Paladins didn't have a chance in the hells, (sorry.) Or how on the boat when the people where under attack everyone, Durkon included, pretty much acknowledged that V was the best hope of ending the battle quickly. In the context of this comic, V has proven herself time and time again to be more competent and powerful than the rest of the order. Based on the rules, should maybe Durkon be a bit stronger? Maybe, but by level 15 or so I still think a reasonably low op wizard will outshine a reasonably low op cleric.
Really? A Wizard who specializes in large-scale battles is more effective there than people who aren't? What are the odds?
As for the Pit Fiend, the first was pure luck. And ending a battle quickly doesn't necessarily make one more powerful (when you're as squishy as V, you either end the fight quickly or die).
As for the assertion that V is in any way competent, excuse me while I go laugh for an hour. V consistently fails to make use of his arcane power with a significant degree of efficiency (as does nearly every full caster in the comic). If V was competent, the comic would have already ended.
theNater
2012-03-30, 01:45 PM
As for threatening a precarious universe, V is more dangerous to the universe with the party - and especially in control of her spellbooks - than not, and not just for reasons Roy doesn't know about.
I seem to have missed something. Which reasons that Roy knows about make V more dangerous to the universe with the party than not?
ThePhantasm
2012-03-30, 01:51 PM
Mind you, this is just an idol thought --
Hey now, no discussions of real world religions allowed here! :smalltongue:
Kalrany
2012-03-30, 03:44 PM
Hey now, no discussions of real world religions allowed here! :smalltongue:
???
...
..
.
D'oh.
Idol.... Idle...
:smallredface: yeah.....
Gift Jeraff
2012-03-30, 04:59 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the OOTS was pretty much completely broken up at #602 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html):
-Roy was dead.
-V left and Elan wanted nothing to do with him/her.
-Belkar was incapacitated.
-Haley left Belkar to rot because she realized he probably killed someone helpful.
That's pretty much a 5-way split right there, and the 2 who were together were distracted from the main quest. And I don't think it can get much lower than that.
Adanedhel
2012-03-30, 05:34 PM
As for the assertion that V is in any way competent, excuse me while I go laugh for an hour. V consistently fails to make use of his arcane power with a significant degree of efficiency (as does nearly every full caster in the comic). If V was competent, the comic would have already ended.
2 Small events for you:
1 Kobold-submachine-gun
2 majorly screwing over an epic lich with a lvl 1 class feature and a 3thd level spell :)
He's learning, which is exactly hy he's kept away from major battles, to nut curbstomp a whole lot of opposition.
NerfTW
2012-03-30, 06:28 PM
When V's crimes are found out, i'm sure that the only one to back him up will be Belkar, asking Roy to forgive V. With how focused Roy has been, he may dismiss V. Belkar may follow V to pester him, and prove a role model for him.
However, if Roy does this, Elan and Haley may leave. Elan because he knows the rules of drama, and lives by them. He sees himself becoming the anti-hero, and as such he might end up in a fight with Roy. When friends have conflict, it never goes well. Haley will follow Elan for obvious reasons.
From one group comes three, Durkon and Roy, V and Belkar, Elan and Haley. Who feels the most guilt? V.
Nope. Keep in mind Belkar, a serial killer who has murdered innocent people multiple times on the Order's watch, is still on the team. Roy is very much willing to keep them around until the job is done, and THEN deal with the repercussions. Just like he said he'd do with Belkar. V screwed up, yes, but it was while under an amount of power no mortal has ever had before, and in a great deal of stress. The equivalent of giving a child a gun and then hitting them. The situation doesn't allow for thinking through the consequences. It doesn't negate the fact that V is still a valuable member of the team, any more than Belkar's murders have.
The fate of the world is at stake. Roy isn't going to bother with debating the morality of what is the equivalent of firing a gun at an unarmed attacker and accidentally hitting a bystander, only magnified by a level of power he was unprepared to handle. And certainly not while having been walking around with a known murderer for the last 2 years.
Really? A Wizard who specializes in large-scale battles is more effective there than people who aren't? What are the odds?
As for the Pit Fiend, the first was pure luck. And ending a battle quickly doesn't necessarily make one more powerful (when you're as squishy as V, you either end the fight quickly or die).
As for the assertion that V is in any way competent, excuse me while I go laugh for an hour. V consistently fails to make use of his arcane power with a significant degree of efficiency (as does nearly every full caster in the comic). If V was competent, the comic would have already ended.
V didn't just end the battle with the Pit Fiend quickly, he ended it period. There is no reason to believe the battle would have been won if it weren't for V at all. v didn't win by pure luck. V assessed the situation, determined the likliest way of winning, and used her allies and other spells to increase the odds of that outcome. In what way is that luck? Why do you say V specializes in large scale battles? Just because she is an evoker?
As for the competence issue, V is more competent in battle than the rest of the Order, generally. I stick to that comment. Is V wise in her use of magic in general? I'm not arguing she is. Is being the strongest in a fight within the Order saying a whole lot? No. It isn't. V also has some of the most obvious weaknesses which are often exploited, sure, but V still has the most power and more offense than the rest of the group combined. Roy would have to be a moron not to recognize and utilize that when the stakes are so high, genocide or no genocide.
Lady Tialait
2012-03-30, 06:56 PM
To explain why I think Belkar would do as I think he would is simple. Belkar's 'character development' actually took. He's different now, he's a worse person.
Also, he is a perfect role model for V, he may be a murdering psycho, but he has learned how to play the game. He listens to his animal (Mind you, his animal doesn't talk.) and over all if V could learn the lessons that are present in Belkar for him/er, s/he would be a better person.
As for the Roy bit, sense his resurrection he's been extremely focused, where before he would let Elan distract him, now he simply ignores him. Before he would put up with Belkar, and now he would not, save Belkar has changed. Were as Belkar never undermined the mission, V just has in a big way. Roy's mind is so focused that he cannot allow a risk to the mission, perhaps to the point of killing V.
D.KnightSpider
2012-03-30, 06:59 PM
I'm not seeing it, personally. Given everything that we've seen from Roy throughout the course of the comic's run, I don't see him banishing V from the party to be anywhere near in-character for him.
Roy regularly puts up with Belkar. If he hasn't thrown Belkar, an unrepentant sociopathic murderer, out on his ear by now, I can't see him deciding that the much more reasonable V is too dangerous to keep around the party. He even had a prime excuse to ditch Belkar back in Sapphire City when Belkar was imprisoned, but, for various reasons, he didn't. If he was willing to throw out party members, Belkar would have never received any Get Out of Jail Free Cards.
Could he be initially outraged by the revelation? Sure. I could see that happening. But would it violate his principles enough to bar V from the Order? Eh... not that I can see. Roy's more laid back than that.
EDIT: Roy kill V? Uh... I don't see that as plausible either. Again, if Roy were willing to go that low, why hasn't he fulfilled the Oracle's prophecy and offed Belkar already? Belkar's given him a lot more reason.
Math_Mage
2012-03-30, 07:37 PM
To explain why I think Belkar would do as I think he would is simple. Belkar's 'character development' actually took. He's different now, he's a worse person.
Also, he is a perfect role model for V, he may be a murdering psycho, but he has learned how to play the game. He listens to his animal (Mind you, his animal doesn't talk.) and over all if V could learn the lessons that are present in Belkar for him/er, s/he would be a better person.
As for the Roy bit, sense his resurrection he's been extremely focused, where before he would let Elan distract him, now he simply ignores him. Before he would put up with Belkar, and now he would not, save Belkar has changed. Were as Belkar never undermined the mission, V just has in a big way. Roy's mind is so focused that he cannot allow a risk to the mission, perhaps to the point of killing V.
Roy put up with plenty of Belkar's nonsense after the resurrection, and absolutely would not kill V, Familicide or no. V does not see Belkar as a role model, and V's character arc is in a totally different direction. Just because Belkar has transitioned to high-functioning sociopath does not mean V has anything to learn from him. I just don't understand anything about your line of reasoning, to the degree that I'm not sure whether we've been reading the same comic.
Forikroder
2012-03-30, 08:27 PM
Give her a chance? Perhaps. Let her have the slightest bit of autonomy, particularly allowing her to carry her spellbooks and choose which spells to prepare? That's rather more of a risk
roy isnt dumb, it would take him about 5 seconds after listening to Vs story to understand the whole thing was pretty mcuh a complete accident taht happened with the best of intentions, especially if V leaves out the alternate plan offered by the fiends (which actually wouldnt ahve worked since Durkon wasnt on the boats so V wouldnt ahve gotten ressed in time)
thereaper
2012-03-30, 11:49 PM
V didn't just end the battle with the Pit Fiend quickly, he ended it period. There is no reason to believe the battle would have been won if it weren't for V at all. v didn't win by pure luck. V assessed the situation, determined the likliest way of winning, and used her allies and other spells to increase the odds of that outcome. In what way is that luck? Why do you say V specializes in large scale battles? Just because she is an evoker?
As for the competence issue, V is more competent in battle than the rest of the Order, generally. I stick to that comment. Is V wise in her use of magic in general? I'm not arguing she is. Is being the strongest in a fight within the Order saying a whole lot? No. It isn't. V also has some of the most obvious weaknesses which are often exploited, sure, but V still has the most power and more offense than the rest of the group combined. Roy would have to be a moron not to recognize and utilize that when the stakes are so high, genocide or no genocide.
You seem to misunderstand just how lucky V was with that petrification. Take a look at the Prismatic Spray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSpray.htm) spell. What V did required both a very lucky roll on his part and a very bad saving throw roll on the enemy's part (even with the debuffs considered). The fact that it was successful does not change the fact that it was a strategy that had almost no chance of working. This is why Durkon called it a foolish risk.
V specializes in blasting and buffing. Both of these things are especially effective in large-scale battles (and your assertion that V's performance in the AC battle was especially good is suspect, considering that Roy could have singlehandedly taken out the entire section of hobgoblins at the breach with a few great cleaves, and would actually have been effective against the Death Knight as well).
More power and more offense than the rest of the party combined? Well, assuming you are referring to raw power, V is more "powerful" than anyone else in the group (with the possible exception of Durkon), though nowhere near so powerful as the whole group combined. The only person who could come close to that title would be Roy, due to his ability to more-or-less match Miko post-Fall in single combat (but that's a discussion for another time). But if you are referring to the net power (raw power plus competence), V is definitely not at the top. Offense without defense does not a high-power character make, unless they can consistently end a battle before defense becomes an issue. V cannot do that.
If V was competent outside of a few select examples (his latest battles being an example of his gradual improvement) the comic would have ended a long time ago (indeed, the comic requires that full-casters be incompetent just to prevent the story from degenerating into rocket tag between casters). He generally fails to utilize his spells with any real efficiency, and only manages to contribute because he's a Tier 1 class.
However, I find myself confused as to why you think I believe that Roy would not keep V around. I do not recall ever saying that he would not. Indeed, he would be a fool to kick V out of the group. I merely take issue with the assertion that V is competent.
zimmerwald1915
2012-03-31, 12:46 AM
roy isnt dumb, it would take him about 5 seconds after listening to Vs story to understand the whole thing was pretty mcuh a complete accident taht happened with the best of intentions, especially if V leaves out the alternate plan offered by the fiends (which actually wouldnt ahve worked since Durkon wasnt on the boats so V wouldnt ahve gotten ressed in time)
I've made this argument before, but it bears repeating. "V did what she did by accident" is an argument for allowing her less autonomy, not more. She might not have the specific power to murder a species anymore, but that she has it within her to fly off the handle such that she could seriously contemplate the possibility means that she should not be allowed to make decisions for herself. During the battle with the devil of unusual size, V exclaimed that she alone was qualified to determine when and how to use her spells. Her fight with mama dragon disproved that. And with Roy back in the picture, there is once again someone in the party with the requisite tactical knowledge and practical spellcraft to make those decisions for V.
You seem to misunderstand just how lucky V was with that petrification. Take a look at the Prismatic Spray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSpray.htm) spell. What V did required both a very lucky roll on his part and a very bad saving throw roll on the enemy's part (even with the debuffs considered). The fact that it was successful does not change the fact that it was a strategy that had almost no chance of working. This is why Durkon called it a foolish risk.
V knew she was taking a risk. She calls Prismatic Spray an "unpredictable evocation" that needed extensive setup before it would even have a chance of working at all, never mind activating the petrification effect. Just about every time she's used Prismatic Spray after the fight with the DOUS she has both not "prepared the battlefield" to the same extent and it has consistently failed to do anything significant. This was also a fight, however, that from the first followed the rules of drama more than any other rules. The casting of Banishment represented V's attempt to apply logic and reason to the problem of the DOUS, and despite the spell's appropriateness to the foe and likelihood of actually working, it failed. When V chose to bow to drama and take a foolish risk, it paid off.
V specializes in blasting and buffing. Both of these things are especially effective in large-scale battles (and your assertion that V's performance in the AC battle was especially good is suspect, considering that Roy could have singlehandedly taken out the entire section of hobgoblins at the breach with a few great cleaves, and would actually have been effective against the Death Knight as well).
The point's more than a bit moot, as even if Roy hadn't jumped onto Xykon's dragon, he wouldn't have been available at the breach. V was only at the breach because she'd split from the rest of the party to singlehandedly banish the three elementals that made the breach. Incidentally, Roy and Belkar together took the same time eliminating the threat of one elemental that V did to eliminate three.
More power and more offense than the rest of the party combined? Well, assuming you are referring to raw power, V is more "powerful" than anyone else in the group (with the possible exception of Durkon), though nowhere near so powerful as the whole group combined. The only person who could come close to that title would be Roy, due to his ability to more-or-less match Miko post-Fall in single combat (but that's a discussion for another time). But if you are referring to the net power (raw power plus competence), V is definitely not at the top. Offense without defense does not a high-power character make, unless they can consistently end a battle before defense becomes an issue. V cannot do that.
Oh, V's got defenses. Bigby's Grasping Hand can act like a Bigby's Interposing Hand if the caster decides the situation calls for it, and can be effective at preventing approach. Invisibility or Greater Invisibility have let V escape Z and Xykon - she would have gotten out of the tower entirely had she not gone back for O-Chul. It's a bit of a waste, but Mass Bear's Endurance would increase V's HP total. Overland Flight, or flight of any kind really, is a potent defense. Protection from Arrows, Resilient Sphere, and Stoneskin are there to protect her person. And these are just the obviously defensive spells known to be in V's spellbook. If you think V's defenseless, you're not paying attention.
What she doesn't normally do is pre-buff, which could call her competence into question, but that's not the argument you made. And the obvious counterpoint would be to point out her defensive preparation for the Battle of Azure City, which included Protection from Arrows and Invisibility at least, and which kept V alive even when most of the breach's defenders, including the competent General Chang, died.
Forikroder
2012-03-31, 01:21 AM
I've made this argument before, but it bears repeating. "V did what she did by accident" is an argument for allowing her less autonomy, not more. She might not have the specific power to murder a species anymore, but that she has it within her to fly off the handle such that she could seriously contemplate the possibility means that she should not be allowed to make decisions for herself. During the battle with the devil of unusual size, V exclaimed that she alone was qualified to determine when and how to use her spells. Her fight with mama dragon disproved that. And with Roy back in the picture, there is once again someone in the party with the requisite tactical knowledge and practical spellcraft to make those decisions for V.
your not making any sense, its like you have Mikos super ability to use the monks ability to jump really far but with conclusions
lets assume that V tells Roy everything, from that Roy will know
1) V was under sever stress for the entire time
2) V's family was in danger
3) V had 3 evil souls whispering in his ear the entire time
erego, all that means V was not in his proper state of mind therefore the only thing Roy would possibly do, is keep an eye on V and make sure he doesnt go for months on end without sleep
and since he would also know about Vs talk with Xykon and him and his familiars heart to heart he would know V was in no way in danger of flying off the handle
V did one evil act that he couldnt ahve known the consequences from, Belkar has purposely and wilfully done multiple evil acts knowing full well what hes doing and asid from the mark of justice Roy does squat to actually keep him under control he just lets him do what he will and if belkar ever crosses the line roy will be standing behind him with his sword out
Roy wont do anything to V would be completely against his character
V knew she was taking a risk. She calls Prismatic Spray an "unpredictable evocation" that needed extensive setup before it would even have a chance of working at all, never mind activating the petrification effect. Just about every time she's used Prismatic Spray after the fight with the DOUS she has both not "prepared the battlefield" to the same extent and it has consistently failed to do anything significant. This was also a fight, however, that from the first followed the rules of drama more than any other rules. The casting of Banishment represented V's attempt to apply logic and reason to the problem of the DOUS, and despite the spell's appropriateness to the foe and likelihood of actually working, it failed. When V chose to bow to drama and take a foolish risk, it paid off.
dealing with high level demons is a pretty difficult endeaver especially since that one was obviously a very high level and since 2 of the 7 possible effects from prismatic spray deal with the problem of a high level demon, it would actually be the highest success rate of any spell V had access to V didnt have high enough magic to actually kill it so he had to bet on him failing a will save
The point's more than a bit moot, as even if Roy hadn't jumped onto Xykon's dragon, he wouldn't have been available at the breach. V was only at the breach because she'd split from the rest of the party to singlehandedly banish the three elementals that made the breach. Incidentally, Roy and Belkar together took the same time eliminating the threat of one elemental that V did to eliminate three.
Belkar didnt actually help cause he was worried about his mark of jsutice and V needed the help of nameless soldiers to pass him the scroll after he dropped it
Oh, V's got defenses. Bigby's Grasping Hand can act like a Bigby's Interposing Hand if the caster decides the situation calls for it, and can be effective at preventing approach. Invisibility or Greater Invisibility have let V escape Z and Xykon - she would have gotten out of the tower entirely had she not gone back for O-Chul. It's a bit of a waste, but Mass Bull's Strength would increase V's HP total. Overland Flight, or flight of any kind really, is a potent defense. Protection from Arrows, Resilient Sphere, and Stoneskin are there to protect her person. And these are just the obviously defensive spells known to be in V's spellbook. If you think V's defenseless, you're not paying attention.
What she doesn't normally do is pre-buff, which could call her competence into question, but that's not the argument you made. And the obvious counterpoint would be to point out her defensive preparation for the Battle of Azure City, which included Protection from Arrows and Invisibility at least, and which kept V alive even when most of the breach's defenders, including the competent General Chang, died.
V survived the breach because of a deus ex machina
zimmerwald1915
2012-03-31, 02:23 AM
your not making any sense, its like you have Mikos super ability to use the monks ability to jump really far but with conclusions
lets assume that V tells Roy everything, from that Roy will know
1) V was under sever stress for the entire time
2) V's family was in danger
3) V had 3 evil souls whispering in his ear the entire time
erego, all that means V was not in his proper state of mind therefore the only thing Roy would possibly do, is keep an eye on V and make sure he doesnt go for months on end without sleep
Again, I fail to see how emotional distress is a mitigating circumstance. After all, it's not like saving the universe is a stress-free activity, and it's not like Inky and his kids up in Ivyleaf (one can hardly call them V's kids anymore if Inky now has full custody) will be spared if the Snarl is unleashed to rampage over World 2.0. As for V being open to the influence of evil souls, Jephton and Ganonron were practically glowing over the cut of Belkar's jib, and Haley, V's best and oldest friend in the party, has had her darker moments as well. That V, when emotionally distressed, is capable of unleashing indiscriminate violence, even if the violence she's capable of is far more contained at the moment than it was during the splice, means that her access to power should be tightly regulated. Whether that means that her behavior should be monitored, or that she should have her prepared spell list dictated to her every morning, the principle is the same. V is not to be trusted.
and since he would also know about Vs talk with Xykon and him and his familiars heart to heart he would know V was in no way in danger of flying off the handle
Given that V has flown off the handle emotionally - albeit with shock and remorse this time instead of wrath - less than an hour ago in-comic and only four strips ago for the readers, it would represent a severe oversight for Roy to discount the possibility.
V did one evil act that he couldnt ahve known the consequences from, Belkar has purposely and wilfully done multiple evil acts knowing full well what hes doing and asid from the mark of justice Roy does squat to actually keep him under control he just lets him do what he will and if belkar ever crosses the line roy will be standing behind him with his sword out
Roy wont do anything to V would be completely against his character
Belkar and V both warrant Roy's supervision. The difference in their power levels and capabilities means that this supervision must take different forms. Belkar's evil acts are usually variations on the theme "go up to person X, stab person X in uncomfortable places, desecrate person X's remains in some zany and inventive manner". Sometimes, like in Yukyuk's case, he leaves person X alive before moving on to desecration. Sometimes third parties are involved, like the guard whose esophagus was intimately introduced to Evisceratus' small intestine. Roy can avert this behavior by standing nearby Belkar and making sure Belkar doesn't draw weapons until Roy needs him to, then directing his violent rampage.
V's situation is fundamentally different. Belkar's armament, and thus his potential capacity and strategy for doing evil, never changes. V's can change, within fairly broad limits, on a daily basis. Belkar cannot fly or go invisible if he wants to escape supervision; V can. Roy, knowing what he knows about wizards in general and about V in particular, is cognizant of this. Supervision of a wizard necessarily implies, at the very least, knowledge of their prepared spells for the day. Directing a wizard's capacity to do evil implies control over the spell preparation process.
dealing with high level demons is a pretty difficult endeaver especially since that one was obviously a very high level and since 2 of the 7 possible effects from prismatic spray deal with the problem of a high level demon, it would actually be the highest success rate of any spell V had access to V didnt have high enough magic to actually kill it so he had to bet on him failing a will save
Yes, Prismatic Spray was capable of dealing with the DOUS, as evidenced by the fact that it dealt with the DOUS. We don't disagree that it was the best spell V had available to her at the time she used it. We do, however, disagree about why that was the case. The logical response to having a devil pop up on the mortal plane, directed to kill you by the being that called it, is to try and banish it: V tried, and it didn't work. The next logical response is to try and kill it. V, the Sapphire Guard, Elan, and Durkon tried, and it didn't work. The next possible response is to rely on luck or, more precisely, drama to defeat it. V, with Durkon's help, turned to this option, represented by Prismatic Spray, and because it was dramatic, this spell sufficed when Banishment and direct damage, the logical responses, failed.
Belkar didnt actually help cause he was worried about his mark of jsutice and V needed the help of nameless soldiers to pass him the scroll after he dropped it
Okay, even being extremely generous (we don't know how the fight played out; my reading was that Belkar was reluctant to fight and ended up having to be coaxed in), that's one elemental that Roy eliminated by himself to two elementals that V took down by herself, in the same length of time.
V survived the breach because of a deus ex machina
I've got my MMII open in front of me, and I don't see that Death Knights have See Invisibility or True Seeing. This tells me that V could have escaped the Death Knight using Invisibility, as she did the hobgoblin horde later. That she didn't allowed the Giant to make a joke involving Blackwing and Kentucky Fried Chicken at the end of the strip in question, and then later to make a joke about how Roy's "heroic display of defiance" had "absolutely no effect at all". It also allowed V's use of Invisibility later to be more poignant.
A more refined way of putting your point was that the deus ex machina arrived before V thought to use Invisibility. That is, it was nice that it arrived when it did, but it wasn't strictly necessary to save V from the Death Knight.
Lady Tialait
2012-03-31, 03:56 AM
Roy has changed, he really has. He's extremely focused, to the point that he had Haley fondle a butt-bone because he was hoping to find the gate. Belkar has done many evil things, purposely, but none of them directly effected the safety of the mission. V has done more damage regarding this gate then Xykon could have done on purpose, and on accident.
Add to that the fact that Roy hasn't ever really liked wizards, given his daddy issues. I can easily seeing this blowing up.
theNater
2012-03-31, 05:32 AM
Roy has changed, he really has. He's extremely focused, to the point that he had Haley fondle a butt-bone because he was hoping to find the gate. Belkar has done many evil things, purposely, but none of them directly effected the safety of the mission. V has done more damage regarding this gate then Xykon could have done on purpose, and on accident.
Add to that the fact that Roy hasn't ever really liked wizards, given his daddy issues. I can easily seeing this blowing up.
At what point in the past has Roy let Haley avoid performing an unpleasant search?
How did Belkar getting himself and Roy into life-or-death gladiatorial matches not affect the safety of the mission?
How were you able to measure Xykon's damage potential against the Draketooth clan?
When has Roy shown any dislike for a wizard that was neither Eugene nor an active enemy of the Order?
D.KnightSpider
2012-03-31, 05:38 AM
Add to that the fact that Roy hasn't ever really liked wizards, given his daddy issues. I can easily seeing this blowing up.
Just because Roy doesn't like his father, who is a wizard, does not mean that he takes issue with all wizards. Where in the past 847 pages of this comic has Roy shown any sort of discrimination or disrespect to wizards? Where has he gone: "ARGH! All of you squishy magic people are just like my father!"?
He hasn't. Roy chose to be a fighter over a wizard, yes, but he's never been shown to be abrasive or rude to those who have chosen to be wizards. If he was so discriminatory towards wizards, why has he treated V so cordially all throughout the strip? Unless you can point to a few instances of Roy being a jerk to wizards you can't just twist his relationship with his father into some sort of statement about how he treats a class of people. Roy's not a 'classesist'.
Yes, Roy's been more focused lately. He has been since Azure City when he found out that the fate of the world is at stake; he was so focused and prepared that he created a detailed and highly restrictive question to pose to the Oracle.
Look at all of the times that the individual members of the Order have 'endangered the mission' since then. The Order put the A-Plot on hold for months as they tried to reunite and resurrect Roy. Belkar's been Belkar. Durkon's left Roy imprisoned instead of springing him. Elan dueled Tarkin, thus risking losing their only lead to the rift. Haley infiltrated the gladiator's prison and further risked messing everything up by getting captured or tipping Tarkin off that something was up in the place.
All of those actions were issues that could have seriously harmed their mission's chances of success and yet Roy hasn't once brought them up or taken issue with what his people did. He fully well understood why Haley did what she did in coming to see her father and even trusted her enough to gather his things. Not once has he penalized any member of the Order for undertaking any of these side actions.
If such has been the case up until now, why would he spontaneously destroy his friendship with V and the rest of the Order for the sake of the mission? Roy has been getting better thanks to the responsibility thrust upon him, not worse. He hasn't adopted the mindset of the 'greater good' or 'the end justifying the means' nor has he become more judgmental since his resurrection.
With no precedent for him to act the way you want him to act, I can't look at your theory and see it as sound because it is not consistent with the pattern of Roy's past behavior. That's just the way that my opinion rolls.
cloudland
2012-03-31, 06:06 AM
I think there is another possibility here too. Roy thought he saw V flying there, and then got hit by an arcane spell at roughly the same level as V. Could this means that the next time the OOTS meet V they will all gang up on V thinking V have betrayed them? Talking might be a free action, but if they pull up a surprise round V go down fast considering V don't even have much health left anyway after that trap.
I think there is another possibility here too. Roy thought he saw V flying there, and then got hit by an arcane spell at roughly the same level as V. Could this means that the next time the OOTS meet V they will all gang up on V thinking V have betrayed them?
Oh, jeez, I don't know. Will the Order jump to the conclusion that Vaarsuvius suddenly, after 846 strips, betrayed them out of the blue...
...with no knowledge of any reason why Vaarsuvius would do such...
...based on Roy having seen a very faint figure in the sky which proceeded to hit the ziggurat...
...with a spell from one of Vaarsuvius' barred schools?
I mean, setting aside the unlikelihood of the Linear Guild flying away without Roy getting enough of a better look at them to be able to tell the difference between them and Vaarsuvius.
Omergideon
2012-03-31, 06:40 AM
Were I Roy I would imagine thinking this as part of my reason for keeping V around.
"Could he EVER do this again?......No".
Smply put V is utterly incapable of ever doing something so depraved again. And so Roy has no need to fear that ever happening again. And so rather than banish one of my most powerful allies because of a thing he could never repeat, lets keep him around (and maybe away from my other mass murdering team mate) until the world is saved and then deal with it. Perhaps in a jail or something.
Chameleon
2012-03-31, 07:07 AM
If Roy is willing to put up with Belkar, who is evil to the bone, then I don't see why he would dismiss V.
V isn't a bad guy, he just made a terrible mistake.
zimmerwald1915
2012-03-31, 09:04 AM
Just because Roy doesn't like his father, who is a wizard, does not mean that he takes issue with all wizards. Where in the past 847 pages of this comic has Roy shown any sort of discrimination or disrespect to wizards? Where has he gone: "ARGH! All of you squishy magic people are just like my father!"?
"What, the ever-touted almighty power of magic wasn't enough to protect you? You needed someone to hit something with a stick?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html)
"Oh, shwell...thank you fer honorin' me by usin' my given name" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html)
That said, you're not wrong, and Tialiat's reading is based on a misinterpretation. But the claim is not totally baseless.
All of those actions were issues that could have seriously harmed their mission's chances of success and yet Roy hasn't once brought them up or taken issue with what his people did. He fully well understood why Haley did what she did in coming to see her father and even trusted her enough to gather his things. Not once has he penalized any member of the Order for undertaking any of these side actions.
There's an economy of scale at work here. Elan's dueling Tarquin would have resulted in an inconvenience at worst. The Order would have to raise him, then do what the Linear Guild did and find Windy Canyon by process of elimination. V's endangered the mortal and celestial realms. That danger will remain even if the Gate plotline is resolved such that the world needn't be destroyed. And she's compounded the danger by hiding it from Roy. Not only has V endangered the mission and the world with her sidequest more than the other party members have with theirs, as a tier 1 caster V requires more and different supervision to keep her in line than does Haley or Belkar or Elan.
"Could he EVER do this again?......No".
Smply put V is utterly incapable of ever doing something so depraved again. And so Roy has no need to fear that ever happening again. And so rather than banish one of my most powerful allies because of a thing he could never repeat, lets keep him around (and maybe away from my other mass murdering team mate) until the world is saved and then deal with it. Perhaps in a jail or something.
Elan's protestations to the contrary, Roy can't read minds or see into the future. He has to make a risk assessment based on precedent. His thought process could go "could V ever endanger the mission, and all life on the planet, by casting Familicide again?" and he could come to the conclusion "no, V is not Epic, and barred Necromancy." His thought process could not run to the conclusion "no, V hasn't got it within her to do such a thing". V's record says otherwise.
If Roy is willing to put up with Belkar, who is evil to the bone, then I don't see why he would dismiss V.
V isn't a bad guy, he just made a terrible mistake.
Which, again, means she should be watched for signs of recidivism, not trusted with the keys to the multiverse.
Lady Tialait
2012-03-31, 01:44 PM
Belkar is evil to the core, this is true. However, he couldn't be a threat on par with Xykon, V could. V is a wizard who is specialized in destructive magic, s/he is on a never ending quest to gain power, and is already known to go power-mad. S/he is a danger to not only the mission but the world.
Put into perspective, Belkar is a minor annoyance at best.
There is also a chance that V has killed as many people as Xykon has, and Roy would totally kill Xykon, and without hesitation.
There is also a chance that V has killed as many people as Xykon has, and Roy would totally kill Xykon, and without hesitation.
I would respect Roy more if he went, "You committed quasi-genocide?!" and attacked Vaarsuvius, don't get me wrong.
But, alas, I think the chances of it actually happening are negligible.
Math_Mage
2012-03-31, 10:29 PM
Belkar is evil to the core, this is true. However, he couldn't be a threat on par with Xykon, V could. V is a wizard who is specialized in destructive magic, s/he is on a never ending quest to gain power, and is already known to go power-mad. S/he is a danger to not only the mission but the world.
Put into perspective, Belkar is a minor annoyance at best.
There is also a chance that V has killed as many people as Xykon has, and Roy would totally kill Xykon, and without hesitation.
Xykon is a continuing continual active threat to the safety of everyone around him, and the world.
V is a largely neutral character who committed one horrific, awful act, that cannot be repeated, whose evil she is now (partially) realizing thanks to the Draketooth revelation. She has consistently expressed a commitment to the quest, and very likely has personal antipathy towards Xykon now.
(Yes, there is the threat of the fiends' possession. However, even V doesn't know that; Roy can't be expected to take it into account.)
With all this in mind, it makes NO sense to attack V, or drive her off. It doesn't even make sense to regulate V's spell list, since it wasn't her spells that caused any of the problems in the first place. Is there some obvious reason I'm missing for why Roy would feel the need to dish out personal retribution for the victims of Familicide? Is there some obvious continuing threat that V poses to the mission?
Lady Tialait
2012-04-01, 02:05 AM
It's hardly V's genocide alone that makes me think like this. Also, it has little to do with the evil spirits in him. The genocide was bad, really bad, and really damaging.
Causal Murder is another strike against V. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
V has a track record of making really bad choices, ones that endanger those around him/er and killing others off-hand. Also, unlike Belkar this was dispassionate killing, and something Roy could never prevent.
This all piled on with the fact that Roy has a passive distaste for wizards. Seeing how he's been fairly annoyed with most wizards, and with V he has not even attempted to create a relationship with.
Hironomus
2012-04-01, 02:17 AM
When V's crimes are found out, i'm sure that the only one to back him up will be Belkar, asking Roy to forgive V. With how focused Roy has been, he may dismiss V. Belkar may follow V to pester him, and prove a role model for him.
However, if Roy does this, Elan and Haley may leave. Elan because he knows the rules of drama, and lives by them. He sees himself becoming the anti-hero, and as such he might end up in a fight with Roy. When friends have conflict, it never goes well. Haley will follow Elan for obvious reasons.
From one group comes three, Durkon and Roy, V and Belkar, Elan and Haley. Who feels the most guilt? V.
I would actually not be surprised if it hapenned this way at all. I can totally see Belkar backing V up as part of his role as a team player and also because he is the only one who wouldn't be horrified by Vs crime. I can even easily imagine Belkar chasing after V when S/he departs in order to subtly mock/ be around another "evil" character/ eventually bring V back to the order. I think that would be a funny arc even if it led to Belkar's death. I also like the idea of Roy and Durkon remaining together as the sole embers of the order since they are the two with the most history together anyway.
My only question is, how does it come to that? They sort of have their plate full atm. I guess thats what everyone is wondering. I am starting to think it will all come out after this current threat is dealt with, not long after V is fished out of the trap.
"So V why did you freak out and run off like that?"
"well the truth is... I may know more about the Draketooths than I immediately revealed."
Math_Mage
2012-04-01, 02:48 AM
It's hardly V's genocide alone that makes me think like this. Also, it has little to do with the evil spirits in him. The genocide was bad, really bad, and really damaging.
Causal Murder is another strike against V. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
V has a track record of making really bad choices, ones that endanger those around him/er and killing others off-hand. Also, unlike Belkar this was dispassionate killing, and something Roy could never prevent.
If you think KUBOTA'S death is going to tip the scales...I'm not sure what to say.
This all piled on with the fact that Roy has a passive distaste for wizards. Seeing how he's been fairly annoyed with most wizards, and with V he has not even attempted to create a relationship with.
You have no evidence that Roy has a distaste for wizards, except for scenes involving family and the attendant family issues.
Further, you have not answered either of my questions.
mightycleric
2012-04-01, 08:22 AM
It is worth noting that Roy saw the guys that were soul-spliced to V, so when V explains things (which Roy would almost certainly demand an explanation), he could corroborate that part, even though V wouldn't know that and would be stating it as something that V didn't expect people to necessarily believe. Based on the level of remorse that V is showing (and the fact that it, unlike Belkar's, is obviously quite sincere) I think that Roy would definitely stick with V. I also think that Durkon would be one of the biggest voices in supporting V and might even be willing to cast an atonement spell on V's behalf.
zimmerwald1915
2012-04-01, 11:34 AM
I also think that Durkon would be one of the biggest voices in supporting V and might even be willing to cast an atonement spell on V's behalf.
Durkon hasn't got the right. The only clerics with the right to cast Atonement on Vaarsuvius, and to set the conditions whereby she would deserve it, would worship Nergal or Tiamat.
Alber
2012-04-01, 12:02 PM
I believe that the arguments presented here are operating off of a fundamental flaw. Most that I have seen post here have given arguments for Roy's character as the possible or impossible breaking point in the order. However, the truth is, that power doesn't ultimately belong to Roy.
It belongs to V.
It should be clear by this point that V's mind is not focused on their mission. He's too mired in his internal conflict to focus on the external one and, in my opinion, will likely take the first excuse he can take to leaving the group in order to steady his own emotional bearings.
That being said, Roy will still likely be the catalyst for a change. Roy has proven himself in the past to make emotionally charged, impulsive reactions. Regardless on any other motivations Roy may have, if he acts on his first, base thoughts, he will lash out at V, and V will take this opprotunity to take his leave of the group, which will then likely pan out in much the same way that Tialait proposed. Even if Roy's outburst only lasts for a short time, and he then starts thinking logically about his decision, it will already be too late for him to do anything about it.
However, mightycleric brings up another good point. Roy has seen the soul splices. Should he remember this, he will likely come to his teammates defense, making the rational, if somewhat incorrect, assumption that V was merely possessed into doing what he did. Again though, Roy is not the true issue here, V is. The question is, will V be able to accept that explanation that Roy proposes to himself? The answer is most likely not. He has already dismissed Blackwing's similar arguments. Instead, he will argue the opposite with Roy which, given Roy's stubborn nature, Roy will likely refuse to believe, even despite V himself denouncing the theory. This will cause V to become more and more frustrated with the situation, before it forces him to do something drastic, which will, again, lead to the breakup of the order.
theNater
2012-04-01, 06:43 PM
I also think that Durkon would be one of the biggest voices in supporting V and might even be willing to cast an atonement spell on V's behalf.
Is there some function of Atonement not listed in the SRD? The only one I'm seeing there that would work on Vaarsuvius is the one that changes the subject's alignment to match the caster's, and I'm not sure V would want to go straight to Lawful Good.
mightycleric
2012-04-01, 09:19 PM
Durkon hasn't got the right. The only clerics with the right to cast Atonement on Vaarsuvius, and to set the conditions whereby she would deserve it, would worship Nergal or Tiamat.
It never states that you have to have a cleric of a victim of the act of evil cast the atonement spell, so Durkon could cast it. Also, the conditions are there if the cleric wants to be sure they are repentant, but Durkon could gauge that without needing a quest. It is to atone for an act of evil, and as such he would be able to cast the spell as he is a good cleric, but it would cost him xp to do so. Even so, I think he would be willing to pay xp for V.
@ theNater: Another thing that the spell atonement does is it "removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject" (2nd Edition of the 3.5 D&D PHB, page 201).
@ Alber: I agree that in some ways it is up to V, but I don't think that V would leave. After all, going off alone to solve issues is what put V in this predicament in the first place, and I think that V realizes that it is much worse to be alone than with the rest of the OOTS. I think that V has come to understand the need for teamwork (as evidenced by how much V has worked with Blackwing lately), and thus would not want to abandon that.
Because I don't see V willingly leaving the party based on how much V has come to realize dependency on the party and that arcane power doesn't just equal a win condition by itself, the only person in the party that could truly make V leave would be Roy, as the leader of the party. As long as Roy is okay with V staying, then I believe that V would very much like to stay (once regaining consciousness and being able to make that decision). I believe that Roy would be willing to do that anyway, and I think that Durkon's voice speaking up for V would tip the balance if there was any questioning (and I do think Durkon would).
zimmerwald1915
2012-04-01, 09:38 PM
It never states that you have to have a cleric of a victim of the act of evil cast the atonement spell, so Durkon could cast it. Also, the conditions are there if the cleric wants to be sure they are repentant, but Durkon could gauge that without needing a quest. It is to atone for an act of evil, and as such he would be able to cast the spell as he is a good cleric, but it would cost him xp to do so. Even so, I think he would be willing to pay xp for V.
No, it does not say that in the spell description. But Soon does say that redemption requires that the penitant "seek forgiveness for [her] misdeeds". Neither Durkon nor Thor is in a position to forgive V, because they are not the parties she wronged. The requirements for actual atonement, as set by a character who really should know what he's talking about, are more stringent than those set by the description of the Atonement spell in the SRD.
@ theNater: Another thing that the spell atonement does is it "removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject" (2nd Edition of the 3.5 D&D PHB, page 201).
That's about on the same level as the description of Ray of Enfeeblement saying that a coruscating ray springs from the caster's hand (first example that popped into my head). It's fluff. Mechanically, the spell has specific and well-defined effects. Besides, "removing the burden of evil acts or misdeeds" from V would be about as good for her as removing her capacity to fear was for Miko.
@ Alber: I agree that in some ways it is up to V, but I don't think that V would leave. After all, going off alone to solve issues is what put V in this predicament in the first place, and I think that V realizes that it is much worse to be alone than with the rest of the OOTS. I think that V has come to understand the need for teamwork (as evidenced by how much V has worked with Blackwing lately), and thus would not want to abandon that.
Because I don't see V willingly leaving the party based on how much V has come to realize dependency on the party and that arcane power doesn't just equal a win condition by itself, the only person in the party that could truly make V leave would be Roy, as the leader of the party. As long as Roy is okay with V staying, then I believe that V would very much like to stay (once regaining consciousness and being able to make that decision). I believe that Roy would be willing to do that anyway, and I think that Durkon's voice speaking up for V would tip the balance if there was any questioning (and I do think Durkon would).
Here, we agree. V wants desperately to preserve some connection to some people, particularly after she burned her bridges with Aarindarius, Inkyrius, and Inkyrius' kids. She places high value on personal relationships. Before the splice, she had still valued both personal relationships and power, but had valued power more highly. Her character arc between the end of the splice and before seeing the family tree was to learn to value personal relationships over power. She will not leave the party of her own volition.
Alber
2012-04-02, 12:13 AM
Here, we agree. V wants desperately to preserve some connection to some people, particularly after she burned her bridges with Aarindarius, Inkyrius, and Inkyrius' kids. She places high value on personal relationships. Before the splice, she had still valued both personal relationships and power, but had valued power more highly. Her character arc between the end of the splice and before seeing the family tree was to learn to value personal relationships over power. She will not leave the party of her own volition.
I'm afraid I disagree here almost completely. V has never placed personal relationships highly. Over the course of the comic's history V has had the least amount of personal interactions with the other members of the Order by far, and has even severely neglected his own mate. V is not opposed to relationships, obviously, but by nature he is a loner; he believes that his magic can do anything and sees others as mere backup. The soul splice was the most grevious example of this hubris, showing without a doubt that, given the right amount of power, V is perfectly willing to abandon or ignore those who are close to him in order to complete the objectives he sees as important.
I agree that in some ways it is up to V, but I don't think that V would leave. After all, going off alone to solve issues is what put V in this predicament in the first place, and I think that V realizes that it is much worse to be alone than with the rest of the OOTS. I think that V has come to understand the need for teamwork (as evidenced by how much V has worked with Blackwing lately), and thus would not want to abandon that.
The sad truth is, this simply isn't true. As I mentioned before, V can intellectually understand certain concepts that he is not necessarily able to put into practice. This is, unfortunately, one of them. If you look at V's behavior since the soul splice, he has NOT been listening to Blackwing, he has NOT been any more "team" focused than before, and he has, quite simply, NOT learned his own lesson. He blew his top at the mage in the magic shop despite Blackwings warnings against it, he has treated the Kobold with the same distance as he has ever treated any creature he was not close with (and even some that he is) and he has not endeavored to build a closer relationship with any of those close to him; he didn't even attempt to rebuild his relationship with his mate upon learning of their intention to divorce him (not that this decision wasn't logicaly justified, but the fact that going to try to mend the relationship didn't seem to even be a serious choice in his mind speaks volumes).
mightycleric
2012-04-02, 12:20 AM
No, it does not say that in the spell description. But Soon does say that redemption requires that the penitant "seek forgiveness for [her] misdeeds". Neither Durkon nor Thor is in a position to forgive V, because they are not the parties she wronged. The requirements for actual atonement, as set by a character who really should know what he's talking about, are more stringent than those set by the description of the Atonement spell in the SRD.
That's about on the same level as the description of Ray of Enfeeblement saying that a coruscating ray springs from the caster's hand (first example that popped into my head). It's fluff. Mechanically, the spell has specific and well-defined effects. Besides, "removing the burden of evil acts or misdeeds" from V would be about as good for her as removing her capacity to fear was for Miko.
But the issue is that he doesn't state where, exactly. The fact is, that it doesn't come from Tiamat, because as an evil diety, Tiamat would never sign off on an atonement for anybody to be forgiven an evil deed. In the D&D universe, it is forgiveness by the concept of Good. It isn't that Thor is forgiving V so much as Thor's power is being used to forgive V of an act against Good. The wrong done was against the concept of Good, and as such, Durkon, an agent of Good, is able to cast the atonement spell (but at an xp penalty, because what V did was a deliberate act). To be fair, though, based on the friendship between Durkon and Malack, an Atonement spell cast by a priest of Nergal isn't even out of the question (though less likely).
That wasn't a good example, as the Atonement spell is specifically designed to expunge the guilt of evil deeds done. That is the point of the spell, not just a fluff description. It is, though, partially a way of just alleviating guilt from the offender, and that would be what V seems to need the most, currently. It is mainly used for casters who have lost their casting ability, but it can be used for any member of the party (especially to relieve guilt).
Also, given that Paladins normally have the strictest codes overall, it would make sense that they have stricter requirements for the Atonement spell. Throw in the fact that their issue is more about having broken their code than just going against Good, as a concept, and they also need forgiveness from the holders of their code (in this case the 12 gods), rather than just the concept of Good.
Here, we agree. V wants desperately to preserve some connection to some people, particularly after she burned her bridges with Aarindarius, Inkyrius, and Inkyrius' kids. She places high value on personal relationships. Before the splice, she had still valued both personal relationships and power, but had valued power more highly. Her character arc between the end of the splice and before seeing the family tree was to learn to value personal relationships over power. She will not leave the party of her own volition.
Yes, thank you for also mentioning the family aspect, as I'd thought about that, but forgot to mention it. I think one of the best things about V's story arc is seeing the growth in V's viewpoint of valuing other people's contributions. I think that V and Durkon have both gained a greater respect for each other, and I hope to see that develop further as a mid to high level Cleric and Wizard (or Sorceror) tandem that truly works together can be a very scary combo (as Red Cloak and Xykon have kind of demonstrated, even though they don't often work together all that well).
The sad truth is, this simply isn't true. As I mentioned before, V can intellectually understand certain concepts that he is not necessarily able to put into practice. This is, unfortunately, one of them. If you look at V's behavior since the soul splice, he has NOT been listening to Blackwing, he has NOT been any more "team" focused than before, and he has, quite simply, NOT learned his own lesson. He blew his top at the mage in the magic shop despite Blackwings warnings against it, he has treated the Kobold with the same distance as he has ever treated any creature he was not close with (and even some that he is) and he has not endeavored to build a closer relationship with any of those close to him; he didn't even attempt to rebuild his relationship with his mate upon learning of their intention to divorce him (not that this decision wasn't logicaly justified, but the fact that going to try to mend the relationship didn't seem to even be a serious choice in his mind speaks volumes).
This isn't completely true, though. If you look, as soon as V got back from the fight with Xykon, there were definitely differences in past attitude. V acknowledged Durkon for the first time in a long time (and I think, ever). V admitted mistakes and decided to try to overcome those in the future. Even in the fight with Xykon, after losing all of that power, V then became more effective, and relied on Blackwing more.
The fact that you say V isn't listening to Blackwing is something that Blackwing would dispute. There is a reason that Blackwing continues to talk in common to V, and it is because V is different now, and is willing to treat Blackwing as a teammate. The fact that Blackwing is constantly around is also an indication of V's new outlook.
Let us also look at the random encounter in the desert, where V mainly cast support spells (and one sanity defense spell). This was completely different from previous attitudes, and in the more recent comic, Durkon states that he and V are coordinating spells together for better efficiency, which is another display of teamwork.
As for the example of the shop fight, that was earlier on, and obviously V is still working on changing, and it will take time. V was baited into that fight, and resisted for a while, which is a difference already. The argument you make about the divorce is a good example of V's new value of relationships, actually. V felt that through the actions while using the soul-splice, that V had given up the right to request a continued relationship in that matter. While V would have liked to continue that, it would have been very selfish, and unlike previous times where it was always about V first and foremost, this time V valued others more highly, and sought out what was best for V's spouse and kids. It is a great example of the transition between V focusing on power and self first, and the new attitude of teamwork and others first.
Math_Mage
2012-04-02, 12:28 AM
I don't know if V sees her lesson as learning the value of personal relationships. To this point, her focus has been that it was wrong to mindlessly pursue and wield arcane might like a sledgehammer. (Side note: it's intensely ironic that she learns this through encountering Xykon, who prefers the sledgehammer to the face any day.)
However, I doubt that was meant to be the full extent of the revelation, and I think the Draketooth epiphany is one sign that V has further character growth coming.
None of this changes my stated position that another significant, extended party split is practically unthinkable. Narratively, it'd be pure distraction at this point and through the foreseeable future; in comic, the Order currently has every reason to stick together and pull as one in their quest to defend the Gates. At most I could see V splitting off for a narrative duration similar to Elan's solo adventure in Linear Guild Arc #2; however, the Darth V episode already was one such split.
Re: the Atonement spell, given the various positions the Giant has taken on issues regarding game mechanics and D&D morality, I HIGHLY doubt he would use Atonement to take the place of a real and substantive atonement by V for her misdeeds. It smacks of the 'atonement' engaged in by Church assassins in Pullman's The Golden Compass series.
zimmerwald1915
2012-04-02, 12:47 AM
I'm afraid I disagree here almost completely. V has never placed personal relationships highly. Over the course of the comic's history V has had the least amount of personal interactions with the other members of the Order by far, and has even severely neglected his own mate. V is not opposed to relationships, obviously, but by nature he is a loner; he believes that his magic can do anything and sees others as mere backup.
I don't think you, or I, or anyone else, has enough insight into V's mind to make that call. What we can do is looks at relative, though not absolute, value. We agree that, before the splice, accumulating power was at the top of V's list of priorities. We can also agree that making new friends was never near the top of V's list of priorities. She was, however, willing to risk her life to rescue Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html), and says that she is motivated to do so by loyalty. She is then envigorated enough by her concern for Haley to hypnotize the YABD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) after several failed attempts. She makes a clear distinction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html) between Miko and the rest of the party. Her fall to the state where she was prepared to accept the offer of the splice was motivated by a concern for, and need to reunite with, Haley and Roy.
All of these are pre-splice examples. Since the splice, V has taken the trouble to expound her philosophy on the relative merits of power and love (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html). I think that it is fairly clear that V values personal relationships highly. She puts up walls against strangers, and even around her friends is a private person. As Blackwing pointed out, even when she lets someone in she tends to take their closeness for granted. It took the shock of losing Inkyrius to make V realize that relationships need not only to be started, but to be maintained, and since that time V has focused on maintaining her connection to the Order (Inky, of course, was a lost cause). But to say that she doesn't value what relationships she's got is to drastically misunderstand V's character.
The soul splice was the most grevious example of this hubris, showing without a doubt that, given the right amount of power, V is perfectly willing to abandon or ignore those who are close to him in order to complete the objectives he sees as important.
As I pointed out already, V's fall was prepared by by her concern for Haley and Roy and her need to have them back in her life. It was precipitated, in part, by a threat to Inky and his kids, whom V considered family even if the bond hadn't been reinforced recently and thus really wasn't there anymore. That the greatest motivation for her, before and during the splice, became overweening pride was what made it a fall. A character doesn't start out fallen. A character's motivations, augmented by their flaws, lead them to fall.
But the issue is that he doesn't state where, exactly. The fact is, that it doesn't come from Tiamat, because as an evil diety, Tiamat would never sign off on an atonement for anybody to be forgiven an evil deed. In the D&D universe, it is forgiveness by the concept of Good. It isn't that Thor is forgiving V so much as Thor's power is being used to forgive V of an act against Good. The wrong done was against the concept of Good, and as such, Durkon, an agent of Good, is able to cast the atonement spell (but at an xp penalty, because what V did was a deliberate act). To be fair, though, based on the friendship between Durkon and Malack, an Atonement spell cast by a priest of Nergal isn't even out of the question (though less likely).
Good, the concept, cannot accept amends or restitution, two things that Soon called out as necessary for redemption. These things must be offered to individuals: to the victims of the wrong, or to suitable representatives. Thor is not a suitable representative of the black dragons who were wilfully killed. Nor is he a suitable representative of the humans who were collateral damage, most of whom, it appears, resided on the Western Continent. Thor's forgiveness would mean just about as much for V's soul as Blackwing's.
zimmerwald1915
2012-04-02, 12:55 AM
I don't know if V sees her lesson as learning the value of personal relationships. To this point, her focus has been that it was wrong to mindlessly pursue and wield arcane might like a sledgehammer. (Side note: it's intensely ironic that she learns this through encountering Xykon, who prefers the sledgehammer to the face any day.)
I argued against SowZ's making of this point here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11545756&postcount=103).
However, I doubt that was meant to be the full extent of the revelation, and I think the Draketooth epiphany is one sign that V has further character growth coming.
Here, we agree. V now realizes she has something for which she needs to atone, though she might not realize its full extent.
Re: the Atonement spell, given the various positions the Giant has taken on issues regarding game mechanics and D&D morality, I HIGHLY doubt he would use Atonement to take the place of a real and substantive atonement by V for her misdeeds. It smacks of the 'atonement' engaged in by Church assassins in Pullman's The Golden Compass series.
Agreed again. I think, however, given that the Atonement spell has been mentioned in the comic, that it will show up again. Not as a substitute or shortcut, but as the culmination of Vaarsuvius' character arc. The spell will be cast after amends and restitution are made to the victims or their representatives. This is one of the reasons Durkon cannot be the one to cast it: it would be too easy.
Also, the trilogy is called "His Dark Materials".
theNater
2012-04-02, 02:37 AM
Agreed again. I think, however, given that the Atonement spell has been mentioned in the comic, that it will show up again. Not as a substitute or shortcut, but as the culmination of Vaarsuvius' character arc. The spell will be cast after amends and restitution are made to the victims or their representatives. This is one of the reasons Durkon cannot be the one to cast it: it would be too easy.
I'm still not seeing why Vaarsuvius would need to be the subject of an Atonement spell at all, unless the gods are incapable of offering forgiveness without a 9-th level spellcaster.
I would tend to think an Atonement spell would go near the beginning of the redemption arc of a divine spellcaster. Making amends is no easy feat, and a divine character bereft of their powers is effectively crippled(compared to those around them). I'd figure that after performing a relatively minor task to prove their sincerity, they would have their powers restored in order to use them for the much more difficult task of making amends.
Math_Mage
2012-04-02, 12:31 PM
I argued against SowZ's making of this point here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11545756&postcount=103).
I never said she was really good at LIVING UP TO the lesson she thinks should be taken from that whole episode. However, that it IS the lesson she thinks should be learned is not really subject to dispute, given the number of times she articulates that exact point.
Agreed again. I think, however, given that the Atonement spell has been mentioned in the comic, that it will show up again. Not as a substitute or shortcut, but as the culmination of Vaarsuvius' character arc. The spell will be cast after amends and restitution are made to the victims or their representatives. This is one of the reasons Durkon cannot be the one to cast it: it would be too easy.
Also, the trilogy is called "His Dark Materials".
Agreed, and thanks for the heads-up on Pullman.
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