screwed wizard

[Azoth]

I want to know, honestly, from actual play experience not belief...how often a wizard has been screwed by losing his spell book. I know most view it as a sacred cow that a wizard's spell book never be damaged or stolen, but has it ever happened in a game you have played in and did it screw the wizard over?

I ask because I have done it, and had it done to me as both a player and a DM...as have my spell component pouches been sundered or othwise destroyed in a fight.

To me it wasn't the end of the world to lose either as I am the type of player to carry 5 spell component pouches and atleast one backup spell book with my most used or essential spells scribed within (costs be damned) ever since my first time rolling up a wizard. I also carry around a handy haversack full of alchemical and mundane items to duplicate some spell useages marbles (grease), torchbug paste (fairie fire), as well as scrolls and wands when I can afford them and feel they are necessary.

I don't see the point in the giant uproar that targeting either of those items is such an unforgivable and evil act by a DM. Maybe it is due to me being paranoid or overly prepaired, but it just isn't the end of the world to me.

[gorfnab]

Here is what I usually recommend for dealing with losing spellbooks.


"Easy Bake Wizard"

Elf, preferably Gray

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level (if you take at first level with flaws) and 6 spells known every level after that.

I recommend also taking the Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion with the build set up.

Add the Domain Wizard ACF from Unearthed Arcana. It works with the Elf Wizard Racial Sub. 1 more spell known and a spell slot to cast it per spell level, and you get to cast that spell at +1 caster level.

Snag Eschew Materials if you are paranoid about getting spell components stolen.

Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds) can work with this set-up.

[Anderlith]

The only way I can see this as a problem is if the DM specifically targets the book over & over again. Or goes through very heavy handed ways to separate the mage & his spells. Once at level three I was been imprisoned by hobgoblins & had to break out to get back to my spellbook & component pouch. It was fun to suddenly think of escape plans using mundane stuff.

[Big Fau]

Losing the spellbook is a harsh penalty, forcing the Wizard to either prepare spells from his current selection (as long as he has a spell/day of each spell level unspent, he can choose to just have those spells proliferate into his remaining slots each day until he gets it back), which effectively turns him into a limited Sorcerer and those spells may not even be useful for getting his book back.


Personally, I always make it a point to take Spell Mastery+Uncanny Forethought so the loss of a spellbook is only a minor setback unless it is a long-term thing.

[The Mentalist]

It's happened once to me for plot purposes (and with my consent) but think about it for a moment. Wizard - his spellbook = high level commoner (and probably worse as he's spent a vast majority of his resources (feats and gold alike) to make his now useless casting.

[bloodtide]

Most wizards in my world are ready for this to happen. So they have back up spell books and other precautions.

And the players that don't, well yes they do get super screwed. This normally only happens with younger players, inexperienced players, or the worst of all: the players that think they are special snowflakes so bad stuff can't happen to them, ever. But that type of player thinks that all player character's should be immortal anyway...and they don't last very long in my game anyway.

I've had a couple players with wizards go through the 'hard luck life' of no spells for a while. Often when they were lost and had no chance to get another spellbook. I couple great Abyss adventures come to mind.....trapped on the Abyss, with no spell book or spells for several games. It was tons of fun, though not for the average special snowflake type player.

Two or three times I've done the crazy adventure where the wizard looses their spellbook like every other week. Great fun!

[tyckspoon]

If a wizard is convinced he needs to apply protections to his spellbook, there is no reasonable way to get it away from him. All it does is create a short arms-race between the DM and the Wizard player, which ends with either the DM completely fiatting away the spellbook ("Your magic has offended the gods! A bolt of divine lightning obliterates your spellbook, the Handy Haversack it was in, and 2d6 spell levels permanently from your mind!") or admitting the Wizard's book is safe at fairly little cost to the Wizard (some GP, a few low-level spells once per day at most.)

The other issue with 'Just take away his spellbook!' is how forced it is when you actually try to do it. Even if the Wizard hasn't taken special precautions, his book is presumably safely stashed in whatever his carrying method is. That puts it out of reach of easy Sunder attacking, and if the Wizard is awake and capable of taking actions he's not going to let you just rifle through his bags until you find the book and run away with it. Which leaves.. have a thief sneak into the camp in the night and take the book and only the book? Anything that has the Hide/Move Silents to pull that off should rationally just murder the entire party and take *all* of their stuff.

Edit: For component pouches, whatever. Carry ten of them. Sling four of them on your belt and the others in your Haversack. Unless you're a Venerable Grey Elf both the weight and the GP costs are negligible, and if something is spending its time sundering/Sleight of Handing those it's *not* spending its valuable turns in melee range with you trying to sword your face off.

[Elric VIII]

The main problem with this is the fact that it is easy (although tedious) to safeguard your spellbook at any level past 3-ish. What this means is that there are 4 scenarios that can unfold if the DM decides to mess with a spellbook.


1. The DM does not forewarn the player, the player does not plan for his spellbook to be stolen/destroyed - Basically, the DM broadsides the player by stealing his spellbook. This, typically, encourges the player to take on the drudgery of spellbook safeguards, from that point on. So this only ever works once.

2. The DM does not forewarn the player, the player plans for his spellbook to be stolen/destroyed - Not a huge issue here. The player spends some gold, and it turns out to be a good investment...

2a. Unless the DM decides that whatever force that is stealing the spellbook just happens to have the perfect way past every defense. That is akin to creating a scenario that will force a Paladin to fall, no matter what. This is never a good idea.

3. The DM warns the player that spellbook theft is possible, the player prepares - In this scenario, the DM basically wants the player to pay a gold/time tax for his class choice. Although, see 2a.

4. The DM warns the player that spellbook theft is possible, the player does nothing - Well, this is the player's fault not much to be said here.


It really boils down to which degree of minutia the DM/players wish to reach. It is almost impossible to get to the Wizard's spellbook while he's awake and alert (with the excpetion of times where the agressor could simply kill the Wizard and take what he wants).

This basically means that it will rely on a thief in the night (or similar event). Then, there is the question of why a) the Fighter's juicy magic items are not stolen and b) why didn't the thief just cut the Wizard's throat.

[Suddo]

Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

Page number please I assume its one of those back in a random side bar things.

[Falin]

Of course, if you're a Kobold, you are your own spell book so that's not a problem. But if not, I generally secret page up an extra spell book or two just to be safe. No gold spent, and safe in my knowledge that I will be free to cast another day.

[Elric VIII]

Page number please I assume its one of those back in a random side bar things.

Page 181, right next to Precocious Apprentice. Also, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)

And we should have a day dedicated to this topic. Maybe we can squeeze it in between Monkday and Gish-mas?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellbooks are extremely costly to compile, and extremely valuable if sold to another wizard. It makes absolutely no difference during combat whether or not the wizard still has his spellbook. Any opponent who directly attacks a wizard's spellbook may as well be wasting his turn slashing up a valuable painting, it's absolutely silly and completely uncalled for. If a DM chooses to have an opponent do this during a fight, it is metagaming at the most extreme level and picking on the player directly, and he should be called out on it immediately.

Spell component pouches, holy symbols, spell foci, even scrolls and wands, pose a direct threat to opponents and are fair targets for sunder, Shatter, Energy Missile, etc. Just like a Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, etc. relies on his weapons to be effective, the casters rely on their spell components, and intelligent opponents will recognize this weakness and exploit it.

As for removing these things outside of combat, it all depends on the situation. A wizard could carry a few storybooks with him in addition to his spellbook, and a would-be thief would have to open each book and look through the pages to know which one he should steal. A few well-placed Explosive Runes spells could easily dissuade or even outright defeat such an individual, and nothing of value would be lost in the process. As far as getting captured goes, capture is often just a plot device, or perhaps he got knocked into the negatives and abandoned, but managed to survive. In any case, you retain your remaining prepared spells until they're cast, so you should have a suitable pool of resources with which to escape and recover your possessions. Most opponents won't actively try to take prisoners outside a plot device anyway, but in any case, a fair DM won't keep a character from his spellbook for very long.

[Big Fau]

Even worse: Spellbooks are 100 pages long. Unless every single one of them is vellum or something similar, the actual spellbook is not an immediately obvious tome as they are usually depicted (in fact, it's thinner than Complete Warrior).

Hell, the Pocket Guide to the Empire (I love preorder bonuses) clocks in at 116 pages, and would be considerably shorter if the book were printed on standard printer paper instead of a day planner-sized book. A spellbook could easily be around twice that size and still be fairly inconspicuous.

[NeoSeraphi]

This happened to me in a game I'm playing in now. I had no opportunity to prepare for it, however, because my spellbook was taken purely from DM fiat, to discourage me (and I suppose punish me) from missing a week (I had work that day, even though I asked my boss not to schedule me during my games. I have since filed an official request with my company).

So the idea was, since my character wasn't there, he was taken prisoner by our enemies and had all of his gear stolen, which basically amounted to my masterwork light crossbow, my cold iron bolts, my spellbook and my component pouch. I show up the next week and the DM tells me that I can retcon having stashed two pages of my spellbook on my person when I was captured, and the game started with me freed and with the rest of the party (they had spent the session I missed breaking into the enemy camp and I was freed along with the other prisoners).

I had two pages of my entire spellbook, which basically meant I got to keep two 1st level spells, due to the rules for spell levels and how many pages they take up.

Now, this wasn't as bad for me, because this was a Pathfinder game. Even without my spellbook, the cantrips I had selected remained in my mind and I could cast them at will. The two spells I chose to keep were charm person and silent image, and I filled my daily spell slots with both of them equally.

Unfortunately, during both of the two full-game sessions it took before I got a new spellbook (each session was 4 hours long) we did not encounter a single humanoid. So I was continuously wasting half of my spell slots on a spell that I just couldn't replace with anything better (funny, it was kind of like being a sorcerer who actually took sleep). Silent image was slightly helpful, but not really. I was basically a walking torch and magic sensor for the entire two sessions.

It was not pleasant at all. I was basically reduced to using my (new, non-masterwork) crossbow every round, firing for 1-4 points of damage (never rolled higher than that). Didn't crit once.

A very very unsatisfying experience. I mean, if I had some other class features to make up for it, it wouldn't have been so bad, but I was a wizard. I had bonus feats and a couple of flavorful abilities that keyed off my spellcasting.

[Jeraa]

I've changed the way wizards work in my games to (mostly) avoid the problem of missing/stolen/destroyed spellbooks. The 2 few spells/level wizards get are treated as if they were mastered by the Spell Mastery feat (the wizard can prepare them from memory - no spellbook is needed). Any additional spells beyond the free ones a wizard want must be scribed into a spellbook as normal.

(I've also removed all non-expensive material components and focues as well. No need for a spell component pouch. Expensive material components and focuses are still needed, but those can't be found in a component pouch anyway.)

[Heatwizard]

prepare spells from his current selection (as long as he has a spell/day of each spell level unspent, he can choose to just have those spells proliferate into his remaining slots each day until he gets it back)

Where does it say you can do that? The SRD doesn't mention it. That'd be a neat emergency trick to haul out, though, if it's valid.

[Azoth]

I have in some games never managed to reaqquire my spell book when it was stollen and in others it has been incinerated while I was shackled in antimagic manacles. Still never really pissed me off much as I found ways to cope without it and still be a threat to enemies until I could get a new one and refill it, or kill another wizard and decipher his. The few DMs that have destroyed my spellbooks always regretted it once I got a chance to retaliate ICly. Nothing like breaking into the BBEG's tower and replacing his spellbook with a fake tome filled with 100pages of explosives runes.

[hymer]

Any opponent who directly attacks a wizard's spellbook may as well be wasting his turn slashing up a valuable painting, it's absolutely silly and completely uncalled for. If a DM chooses to have an opponent do this during a fight, it is metagaming at the most extreme level and picking on the player directly, and he should be called out on it immediately.

While I agree for the most part, it's certainly not beyond all reason to target a spellbook in combat. Mad cultists who believe magic is evil might try to destroy a spellbook on principle. Mind-controlled mooks with specific orders may try to target a spellbook. The proud warrior race guy with two hp remaining may decide the most expensive way to sell himself is to lash out at something precious. The specialist mage slayer may have ways to hit at vulnerables and then come back later for the kill. Etc.

[candycorn]

I've had sleeping parties whacked on the head, and wake up captured before. In such cases, the wizard doesn't have his spellbook, but generally gets the opportunity to find another one soon, making rolls and attuning. After some time, the wizard does have the opportunity to get his spellbook back (typically, stored somewhere that it could be looked at, such as a private study or somesuch).

Depending on the level of safeguards on the book? Determines whether the person studying learned something, whether he's still trying to access it, or whether the party entered the room and found a small pile of ashes on the chair in front of the book.

[Vizzerdrix]

What I can't figure out is why do you have your spellbook someplace that it CAN be targeted in the first place? At low levels dump it in your back pack. No line of sight. good luck targeting it.

[Darth_Versity]

This is why my wizard had several pages of her spellbook tatooed across her body. They were mostly things like Teleport, Invisibility, etc... that would allow her to escape in the event of capture. I then used Secret Page to alter the text into just a general tribal tatoo so it wasn't obvious that she had spells there.

The best part was that I had levels in Geometer so every spell only took one page, so I had 3 spells just on my forearm meaning I didn't look like an overly tatooed freak.

I then made a Permanent Image of my actual spellbook and hid it in a wall so that I could make a new copy if ever I lost my original.

Suffice to say, with all my precautions, I never had my spellbook stolen.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Where does it say you can do that? The SRD doesn't mention it. That'd be a neat emergency trick to haul out, though, if it's valid.

If you have spell slots unused, you need not "empty" them for preparation the next day... or the day after. If Wizard McSad loses his spellbook but still has Grease, Shield, and Phantom Steed prepared, then he simply leaves those slots prepared until he can replace them with other spells. In such a case, the wizard goes from being a wizard to being a really, really limited sorcerer.

[tyckspoon]

What I can't figure out is why do you have your spellbook someplace that it CAN be targeted in the first place? At low levels dump it in your back pack. No line of sight. good luck targeting it.

Indeed. It's not impossible to sunder a backpack, but it's not something most opponents will really think to do and it just spills stuff all over the place. You still have to figure out which thing that just fell out is the spellbook and take another attack to actually try to hit it.. assuming it's an unprotected book and doesn't have THIS IS A SPELLBOOK printed on it in big glowy arcane letters.

If it *is* a protected book, you're looking at, as a pretty minimal investment:

A securely-lockable case of (hardwood/iron/adamantine/riverine, depending on level and wealth of wizard) secured with an Arcane Lock as well as a physical lock, containing a Very Obvious Spellbook, with Mystic Sygyls and all the trappings of Most High Magicks. This book is a decoy, meant to be destroyed to satisfy the unaware saboteur, and contains nothing but Sepia Snake Sigils and/or Explosive Runes for those curious enough to read it. The case has a false bottom. Under this false bottom is another book, Shrink Item'd (Shrink Item reduces an item by four size categories, which will take a standard book pretty much off the bottom of the size chart altogether, rendering it quite difficult to locate.) This one is empty or possibly bearing Secret Pages to *look* like a spellbook; it's just there to bother the more thorough searcher who came prepared with magical detection.

Your *actual* spellbook is also Shrink Item'd and in a clothlike state. Remember how this takes it below the small end of the standard size chart? And now it's flexible? You can hide that sucker any dang place you feel like. Shove it in an internal pocket of your shirt, or in a shiny metal cigar case, or whatever. It'll fit anywhere, and the only way anybody is getting at it is to strip search you. (And not even that, once you have enough caster level/spare low level spell slots: cast an (Extended) Hoard Gullet and you can swallow the thing into a personal extradimensional 'stomach', requiring people to successfully Dispel you before ever having a chance to spot your spellcloth patch.)

[Heatwizard]

If you have spell slots unused, you need not "empty" them for preparation the next day... or the day after. If Wizard McSad loses his spellbook but still has Grease, Shield, and Phantom Steed prepared, then he simply leaves those slots prepared until he can replace them with other spells. In such a case, the wizard goes from being a wizard to being a really, really limited sorcerer.

But does it explicitly say anywhere that you can prepare new spell slots with spells you have prepped in other slots, without a book?

[Acanous]

I've had it happen once. It was a scenerio where
DM does not advertise, player has prepared anyhow.
DM: While walking through the dungeon, you realise your pack feels lighter!
Me: You know I'm invisible and flying all day long, yes?
DM: Yep.
Me: And Bag of Holding type 3 does not actually get any lighter if something is removed from it. Do I notice something tugging at my bag?
DM: No. Next time you go to prepare your spells, you will notice your spellbook is missing.
Me: Ok, where exactly did this theif get a full round to open up my bag, loot around for my spellbook, and bypass the traps on the book, all without me noticing, while I was carrying the bag, flying 5 feet in the air, and invisible?
DM: He's a quickling rogue. He can do that sort of thing, they're really fast.
Me: Did it set off the Alarm spell inside the bag?
DM: ...no.
Me: So he knew the password. When he spoke the password, while holding the bag open, flying in the air adjacent to me, I should have been entitled to a DC 5 listen check. I have more than 4 ranks in Listen, my success is automatic.
DM: He spoke it very quietly.
Me: Alrighty then. Which of the books in the bag did he take?
DM: Your spellbook.
Me: I'm a level 9 wizard with the Colligeate Wizard feat. I've had two spellbooks since level 7. Which one did he take?
DM: Both of them.
Me: Seeing that there were more than just one book, Did he open the books to ensure they were spellbooks before taking off?
DM: Yes.
Me: Alright, give me a save VS Sepia Snake Sigil.
DM: Oh, he already made it.
Me: Ok. The books appear empty aside from the sigil, due to Secret Page. Does he take them anyhow?
DM: Yes, he takes your spellbooks.
Me: Alright, so just to clarify; he's got two spellbooks in hand and is presumably bugging off with them. He's done this feat of aerial acrobatics for two rounds, without anyone hearing (Or feeling) his presence. He's disabled two magical traps, one of which is auto-hit and would have triggered the moment he reached into the bag. All in order to steal a couple spellbooks and leave everything else I was carrying around in there untouched, and not once has he failed a move silently to the entire party's listen checks.
DM: Yep. You no longer have your books.
Me: Alright. Question?
DM: Yes?
Me: How are we all still alive right now? This monster is obviously epic and capable of killing us all.

[Yuki Akuma]

But does it explicitly say anywhere that you can prepare new spell slots with spells you have prepped in other slots, without a book?

It specifically says you can scribe prepared spells into a new spellbook. So just do that, then prepare from that one.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For me, safely storing my spellbook is a (relatively large) spellbook shrunk once by Permanent Shrink Item (with one command word which my character would perhaps only peripherally know, like a random, seemingly incomprehensible set of syllables), and then again by a regular Shrink Item (with a relatively common command word, which my character would never use in daily conversation, but might still know quite well, like "zyzzyva") and then encapsulated in a fake tooth hidden inside my own mouth (unless I have a willing participant in one of the other party members, preferably somebody big and dumb, in which case it's in their mouth). This ensures that any DM willing to hold me (or my big, dumb friend) down and pry the tooth out of my (or their) mouth first has to endure 3.5's grapple rules. :smallamused:

My book is also trapped with Explosive Runes on every page that is a prime number, and Sepia Snake Sigil on every page that is a number in the Fibonacci sequence (twice again for the first page, of course, since it is the page that is most often read first). Since Sepia Snake Sigil, unlike Explosive Runes, has no explicit wording within the spell's language that allows me to read the text myself, I prepare these as dummy pages using Secret Page (meaning my spellbook either has 109 pages, only 100 of which contain spells, or it has only 91 pages worth of spells). Assuming I haven't banned illusion (I did when making my Incantatrix), Magic Aura is then cast upon the book so as to make it seem nonmagical.

My fake book exists in small, wooden case or lockbox, magically treated to be fireproof and water-tight, inside my bag, locked with a mundane lock, which isn't trapped, but has Phantom Trap cast upon it (to give the appearance that it is, in fact, trapped). While the lock isn't trapped, the box itself is trapped with both an Alarm, which goes off very loudly if anybody but myself opens the box, and (if necessary) a Sign of Sealing at whatever caster level I can get it at (typically my own). Every page is a Secret Page, and also has Explosive Runes cast on it. The book has an aura, as per the Magic Aura spell, of illusion (to make it "seem fake", or perhaps Phantom Trapped, in a double-feint).

The key to the fake book, as well as my back-up spellbook, are in a Secret Chest as soon as the opportunity strikes, else they are hidden in a remote, neutral location until I need them (obscured only with abjurations and illusions; I don't want to draw attention to it).

I had a DM who never tried to steal my book (whenever it was fiated away, which is to say before I devised these magical protections, it was usually through "the lawful authority of the region takes your spellbook from you as you enter X place"), but explicitly stated that it would be stolen. I quit before it ever was (unrelated to this). Now, I just keep this regiment in mind for any future games I might play (everything is level 3 or lower except for Secret Chest, which means I could play this character in an E6 campaign, which is great, because I intend to do exactly that some day).

[Answerer]

This happened to me in a game I'm playing in now. I had no opportunity to prepare for it, however, because my spellbook was taken purely from DM fiat, to discourage me (and I suppose punish me) from missing a week (I had work that day, even though I asked my boss not to schedule me during my games. I have since filed an official request with my company).
I would quit that game and never look back. Maybe invite the other players to find another DM, or start DMing for them myself. That is incredibly enormous amounts of BS.

[Particle_Man]

One of my early campaigns I was a 1st ed Magic-User and another *player* had a half-orc fighter character that just took my spellbook and destroyed it (I think he might have wiped his ass with it first). Everyone else thought it was funny. I was a 1st level magic-user. I decided not to play with those guys ever again.

[NeoSeraphi]

I would quit that game and never look back. Maybe invite the other players to find another DM, or start DMing for them myself. That is incredibly enormous amounts of BS.

To be "fair", the ranger also missed that day, and so he was taken captive as well, and his +5 sword of awesome plot was removed as well (It was like a +3 holy frost burst bastard sword or something). This isn't as bad as it sounds, since the ranger actually didn't pay for it, but got it as loot during a dungeon. Still, it was a nice weapon and he lost it because he was absent from the game. At least when I got my new spellbook the DM let me auto-scribe all my spells I had previously picked even though I only had a few prepared.

I agree though. Total BS. If I weren't so desperate for a game and so completely convinced that this is the only game I can get into IRL at my current location, I would leave.

[Saph]

I've seen it happen exactly once, and that was under very unlikely circumstances.*

Basic problem with an enemy attacking a wizard's spellbook - why are they attacking the spellbook and not the wizard? Destroying a wizard's spellbook gives no benefit at at all in combat, as it won't inconvenience the wizard until they next prepare spells (and maybe not even then). If you can bypass all the wizard's defences thoroughly enough to get to their spellbook, odds are you can get to the wizard as well.

Losing a spellbook weakens the wizard in the long term, but most of the time the kind of enemies an adventuring party meets don't want to weaken you in the long term, they want to kill you in the short term. Doesn't mean it never happens, but it's a pretty fringe possibility and simply getting killed is a hell of a lot more likely.

*Said circumstances were the wizard in question getting completely engulfed by an Elder Black Pudding. It destroyed his spellbook all right. Of course it also destroyed his armour, shoes, clothes, backpack, weapons, potions, scrolls, wondrous items, hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, bones, and internal organs. Frankly, the spellbook wasn't really his biggest concern by that point.

[bloodtide]

Me: Alright, so just to clarify; he's got two spellbooks in hand and is presumably bugging off with them. He's done this feat of aerial acrobatics for two rounds, without anyone hearing (Or feeling) his presence. He's disabled two magical traps, one of which is auto-hit and would have triggered the moment he reached into the bag. All in order to steal a couple spellbooks and leave everything else I was carrying around in there untouched, and not once has he failed a move silently to the entire party's listen checks.
DM: Yep. You no longer have your books.
Me: Alright. Question?
DM: Yes?
Me: How are we all still alive right now? This monster is obviously epic and capable of killing us all.

DM's like this just make me laugh. We can assume the DM knew all the rules and protections and such. So why not just have the thief steal the bag of holding? Then the thief gets the spellbooks and does not set off the spellbook traps.

[Elric VIII]

DM's like this just make me laugh. We can assume the DM knew all the rules and protections and such. So why not just have the thief steal the bag of holding? Then the thief gets the spellbooks and does not set off the spellbook traps.

Because then there's the issue of why the thief didn't steal from the people that arent flying and invisible and don't have objects in their posession that are likely to vaporize you if you look at them the wrong way.

[Chronos]

This is a design flaw in the wizard class. The possibility of a spellbook being stolen is supposed to be one of the things that balances the power of the class, but if you ever actually do it (leaving aside the question of whether you can do it, with the wizard's defenses), then the class goes straight from overpowered to stupidly underpowered, which is still no fun for anyone. A proper drawback would be something less serious, but which could practically be relevant more often.

[Coidzor]

Losing the spellbook is a harsh penalty, forcing the Wizard to either prepare spells from his current selection (as long as he has a spell/day of each spell level unspent, he can choose to just have those spells proliferate into his remaining slots each day until he gets it back), which effectively turns him into a limited Sorcerer and those spells may not even be useful for getting his book back.

Really? That's the first time I'd ever heard of such a thing.


4. The DM warns the player that spellbook theft is possible, the player does nothing - Well, this is the player's fault not much to be said here.

It's still an asinine decision on the DM's part to play that kind of game anyway given the binary nature of spellbook defenses. Either you're being a jerk and punishing a player for not knowing enough to break the game 5 ways to sunday, thus encouraging him to learn how to do so and giving him a grudge against you on a personal level, you're cheating, or you're not able to overcome his layered defenses and so don't even bother trying.

[Gavinfoxx]

I've had it happen once. It was a scenerio where
DM does not advertise, player has prepared anyhow.
<Snip awesome conversation of awesomeness>


Wow... I wanna hear more about that... what did the group think? How did the DM respond to that? Also... that was totally great... that conversation REALLY happened?

[nedz]

But playing an over educated commoner is such a great role-playing opportunity. Knowledge is Power after all, and a stealing a Wizards spell-book does not rob them of their knowledge skill points.

More seriously: accidents happen, but for a DM to deliberately do this is akin to making a Paladin fall for some silly reason. Taking precautions over your spell-book is part and parcel of playing a Wizard, its like a Fighter not having a backup weapon, etc.

[Slipperychicken]

I've had it happen once. It was a scenerio where
DM does not advertise, player has prepared anyhow.

Reminds me of one (not nearly as crippling, but similarly egregious) session I played in. Also reminds you that there are other ways to screw a Wizard over, like ignoring or negating magical effects whenever possible.

Me: "So, my Phantom Steed is 35 feet in the air, flying at 240ft per round, so the wolves can't get to me"

DM: [Later] The wolves jump up and mangle the Phantom Steed, killing it in seconds. As you tumble toward the earth, you...

Me: What?! I'm 35 feet in the air. That's a Jump DC of 140!

DM: Wolves can jump. They weren't really 35 feet in the air. The horses legs are hanging down and-

Me: Even if this horse somehow has 10ft legs, that Jump DC is in the triple digits. Are the wolves actually flying or something?

DM: Listen, they're magic wolves. They can jump.

Me: You didn't even roll to hit!

The wolves were also able to walk on water after my Wizard flew over a lake to dodge them, and were hence dubbed "Jesus-Wolves".

Unsurprisingly, after a few more incidents like that (one involving a creature, whose kind explicitly do not follow the rules and were the main enemy type, getting into a Magnificent Mansion and focusing my Wizard with Dominates that bypass Mind Blank "because it's weird"), I left the game.

[elonin]

The spell book is a weak point for the wizard. If you can't deal with that play a sorcerer. There are things you can do to to mitigate that though.

[Slipperychicken]

The spell book is a weak point for the wizard. If you can't deal with that play a sorcerer. There are things you can do to to mitigate that though.

IMO, such complete item-dependency is a terrible design feature (almost every Wizard I've played is Eidetic). "Weak points" are things like undead for rogues, or high-SR opponents for Warlocks, or AMFs for most casters. Practically losing your one notable class feature for at least the rest of the campaign moves beyond "weak point" and well into the realm of sadism. Even a Paladin can Atone in short order if need be. A Wizard has to spend the better part of a year (and most of his WBL) rebuilding his book if it's lost.

[Voyager_I]

The spell book is a weak point for the wizard. If you can't deal with that play a sorcerer. There are things you can do to to mitigate that though.

In theory, maybe. In practice, it's poorly implemented to the point of being basically unusable. Taking advantage of this "weakness" can effectively remove a character from the game. Losing your spell book is so absurdly punishing that a Wizard presented with the threat of its removal would naturally make use of any preventive measures available...and it also happens that a Wizard's ability to protect their spellbook vastly outstrips the capability of anything even vaguely level-appropriate to steal it.

I'm not saying that this is the way the system should work, but that's the game we've got. Stealing a Wizard's spellbook generally means that you're either punishing him for not breaking the game to protect it, or just DM-Fiat'ing through all their defenses with something that could just kill them and take their everything.

[killem2]

I don't understand why a DM would need to go that far to nullify a wizard unless there is a serious damage being done to the campaign and even then, you have a plethora of monsters out there and if you have too, go back to older d&d editions and try to update some of those for fighting.

There has to be better ways.

And there can always be a bigger fish. (wizard in this case)

[dextercorvia]

As a DM, I locked up a party containing a 1st level Wizard once, and therefore he lost his Spellbook. When the guard lieutenant explained to them that they were being transferred to a different prison where their security was less guaranteed, he accidentally left a sack containing their personal belongings behind.

I think that character was without his book long enough to sweat about how he was going to get out of it, but not long enough to get annoyed.


Similarly I lost my spell component pouch once (when we went overboard in a storm) near the beginning of a campaign. I roleplayed a couple of encounters gathering components on the fly (soot for a comprehend languages spell -- the islanders didn't speak common, and gathered some sand before heading into the dungeon -- since Color Spray was my main offensive spell). Shortly after that, the DM let me know that I had restocked the bag.

[WildPyre]

I've thankfully only had my wizard lose his spellbook once, and it was in a rather neat scenario, so it was actually pretty cool. The party had gotten to near epic levels and all hell was literally breaking loose. We'd handled the situation badly and were on the losing side of a portal to hell so as a last act of desperation my wizard decided "I'd rather see the world destroyed than under the oppression of hell."

Long story short, a couple of good rolls later and a page from the book of destiny, what he thought was a cosmic end game button turned out to be more of a reset button.

We all got knocked back to level 1 and woke up naked on a beach. We armed ourselves with sticks and began to explore. Eventually we made our way to a city and joined the local militia, giving the martial classes armor and weapons.

My wizard ended up doing what amounted to little side quests, collecting pitch from the blacksmith, a chicken feather, and a bolt of cloth. Then he took the head off the spear he was given to use as a makeshift dagger, the feather as a quill and mixed his own blood with the pitch. All of this was used to start writing a new spell.

So with a bit of determination and inginuity what was a disasterous situation for a wizard became a small crowning moment of awesome, the only caster in the region walking around with a massive scroll on his back for a spell book with spells written in his own blood and pitch.

[Particle_Man]

Personally I would prefer to screw with the wizard. Instead of stealing the spellbook, she finds a new spell in there, and doesn't know exactly what it will do unless she memorizes and casts it . . . (or else she does know what it will do, and it would be powerful, but is said to be very very evil).

[Elric VIII]

Honestly, if you're going to screw with the wizard, Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) has less long-term consequences. Get a Rogue to UMD a few high DC scrolls of this over a few nights or give the Wizard a cursed item that casts this every night that he has it on his person + 1d4 nights, etc. This basically mimics the lack of spellbook (i.e. you are limited to whatever spells you currently have memorized), but it doesn't take months of in-game time/gold to get the Wizard back to full capacity.

[Acanous]

Wow... I wanna hear more about that... what did the group think? How did the DM respond to that? Also... that was totally great... that conversation REALLY happened?

Yes, it really happened.
After clarifying that my spellbook was gone and I couldn't scry the theif, I rolled a Knowledge: Religeon, said "Pazuzu" three times, and wished for my books back.
(Hey, when the DM pulls that kind of cheese, you're allowed)
I got them back "Shredded and burned, with all the magical components and traps permanently destroyed", and my alignment shifted to L/E.

So anyhow, the party set upon the DM like "Dude, WTF?" The DM's excuse was that a new player who had rolled a cleric was feeling marginalized because of a Cure Light Wounds trap on one of my spellbooks.
After each encounter in which my Wizard took damage, she'd pull her book out, open it, and take a heal. A couple rounds later, more heals. It wasn't an in-combat thing (What wizard would whip out their spellbook in combat?) but it allowed me to start every encounter in a day at full HP.

Now, when I had joined, we had no cleric. When we got a cleric, I figured this'd save him some 1st level spell slots. I had a total of 24 HP, which was high for a wizard, but not a whole lot for level 9 encounters. It's not like going in at full each encounter was trivializing the enemy's ability to kill me. (Being a Master Specialist Illusionist was doing that, thank you very much)
When I' origionally gone into magical traps, the DM specified I could only create traps that could be used offensively, despite that not being in the trap rules anywhere.
So I trapped it with CLW, stating positive energy harms undead, and it's practical in case of a lich stealing my book. (We were up against a lich at the time.)

Basically the DM said the cleric felt that a CLW trap was too overpowered and marginilizing his role.

...The other T1 caster in the party...was crying foul at me... because of a lv 1 spell trap. That's the excuse for sending Ninja Batman to steal my books, then destroy them in case I wished for them back.

Needless to say, we switched DMs at that point.

[elonin]

IMO, such complete item-dependency is a terrible design feature (almost every Wizard I've played is Eidetic). "Weak points" are things like undead for rogues, or high-SR opponents for Warlocks, or AMFs for most casters. Practically losing your one notable class feature for at least the rest of the campaign moves beyond "weak point" and well into the realm of sadism. Even a Paladin can Atone in short order if need be. A Wizard has to spend the better part of a year (and most of his WBL) rebuilding his book if it's lost.

Which is why every wizard should travel with a traveling spell book. I see this as the one thing that can possibly bring the wizard and sorcerer closer to parity. For mid-level wizards Bocobs blessed books mean that having a backup isn't that expensive.

[JeminiZero]

Its stuff like this which drives me to tattoo at least one spell of every level on my Wizards. So that even without a spellbook, they are at least *not* commoners.

[Taffimai]

The entire campaign mentioned in my sig revolved around restoring the wizard's spellbooks which the characters believed to be destroyed in the magical explosion that obliterated his tower. In reality, a rival wizard had stolen it to make sure he would win that year's Wizarding Tournament (the PC had won it for the previous X years). The explosion was actually triggered by the many defensive spells within the tower all going off at once, but luckily the PC was saved by a contingency-resilient-sphere-amulet.

The fact of the matter was that I had one novice player who had never used dice outside of parcheesi and who had a hard time figuring out how to play his 5th level character (line of sight? combat grid? saving rolls?) and one very experienced player who really wanted to be a high level abjurer. The compromise was that he would get to make the abjurer and that I would find a way to cripple him until the cleric caught up. Was it terribly contrived? Perhaps so. However, it worked and we all had fun.

[Answerer]

As a DM, I locked up a party containing a 1st level Wizard once, and therefore he lost his Spellbook. When the guard lieutenant explained to them that they were being transferred to a different prison where their security was less guaranteed, he accidentally left a sack containing their personal belongings behind.

I think that character was without his book long enough to sweat about how he was going to get out of it, but not long enough to get annoyed.


Similarly I lost my spell component pouch once (when we went overboard in a storm) near the beginning of a campaign. I roleplayed a couple of encounters gathering components on the fly (soot for a comprehend languages spell -- the islanders didn't speak common, and gathered some sand before heading into the dungeon -- since Color Spray was my main offensive spell). Shortly after that, the DM let me know that I had restocked the bag.
I like these. These are appropriate ways of using the spellbook and component pouch: interesting, but not obnoxious or cruel.

[Ormur]

The spellbook wasn't exactly stolen from my wizard, more like looted from him. A battle ended with my wizard dead from an implosion spell. The druid managed to cast last breath before escaping but that left my wizard at the mercy of the BBEG. Later the druid mounted a successful rescue mission, but not one that killed the BBEG. So not only did the wizard loose his spellbook but also his belt of battle.

What made the character salvageable was that we managed to loot a high level henchman's spellbook that had a few spells in common. He also kept most of the equipment that the BBEG wasn't immediately interested in. There are rules for preparing spells you know from another spellbook once you've decrypted it. The wizard could also scribe a few of the spells that he memorized and bought a handful of scrolls for the low level spells that I missed the most.

He died permanently trying to get his spellbook back from the BBEG's extradimansional fortress though. :smallfrown:

[MukkTB]

As DM I've never taken a wizard's spellbook away. This isn't because I have a real problem with doing it. Its because it wouldn't make sense for the monsters and bad guys to do it. Its not edible or directly relevant to the combat at hand. That and the fact that the guys I play with would rather die than be captured. NEVER GIVE UP. NEVER SURRENDER! I have had bad guys sunder staves and wands though.


It might make sense for a BBEG to try to destroy a PCs spellbook. But at that point if he has breached the PCs defenses why not just kill him? "I want to make you suffer."

[NeoSeraphi]

For all the DMs out there who want to weaken the party wizard, I strongly suggest you resort to Intelligence drain or negative levels rather than taking the spellbook away. Both of these will remove the character's ability to cast his highest level spells (which are the most level appropriate ones), with the Intelligence drain of course being the more permanent debuff (at least until the wizard can find someone to cast restoration for him).

For example, an 11th level wizard with 24 Int who takes 9 points of Intelligence drain loses the ability to cast his 6th level spells, and also takes a -4 penalty to the DC of the saving throw of his spells. The same wizard that gets hit with 4 negative levels will lose the ability to cast four of his prepared 6th level spells, which also weakens him considerably (Negative levels also arguably reduce the wizard's caster level, but I won't get into that argument and just say that it's the DM's choice if that works or not).

These two abilities are much better than simply relying on stealing the spellbook, and all you have to do is successfully surprise the wizard, since he can't cast while flatfooted. (Give the enemy invisibility and full ranks in Move Silently or something).

[Answerer]

I don't agree at all. That's not appropriate in the least, at least for any kind of long-term basis.

No, the appropriate thing to do is take it outside the game and come to an agreement with the player about what is and is not appropriate for the game.

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't agree at all. That's not appropriate in the least, at least for any kind of long-term basis.

No, the appropriate thing to do is take it outside the game and come to an agreement with the player about what is and is not appropriate for the game.

That's not challenging the player, though. That's asking him to tone his stuff down and coming to an agreement. I'm talking about actually making the player sweat, like putting monsters with Swallow Whole against a melee fighter or undead against a rogue. The game isn't fun unless you're struggling at least some of the time.

[SimonMoon6]

Personally, I would never specifically target the wizard's spellbooks unless it made sense from a storytelling perspective. For example, maybe the wizard has pissed off another wizard (or maybe impressed an overly jealous wizard) but not enough for the other wizard to want the PC dead. So, he send someone to steal the PC wizard's spellbooks. That I could see. But that would probably never happen.

If I wanted to run an adventure featuring the wizard without his spellbooks, I'd do one of those "You all end up naked" stories, so he's not the only one who's screwed. Of course, he'd be screwed the MOST by the nature of the wizard class, but at least he wouldn't be picked on unfairly.

[Answerer]

OK, I thought you meant as some kind of long-term thing.

I still despise Negative Levels, for a lot of reasons. The bookkeeping headache they entail not least among them.

[NeoSeraphi]

OK, I thought you meant as some kind of long-term thing.

I still despise Negative Levels, for a lot of reasons. The bookkeeping headache they entail not least among them.

Well, honestly, if you're playing in a game where the party doesn't have someone who can cast restoration, you're going to have a lot of problems anyway. And negative levels are a pain, but you can bet the wizard will do everything he can to buff his Fort saves like crazy in order to make sure he passes the save (or you could just hit him with enervation to make sure they fade on their own in an hour).

[Coidzor]

Which is why every wizard should travel with a traveling spell book. I see this as the one thing that can possibly bring the wizard and sorcerer closer to parity. For mid-level wizards Bocobs blessed books mean that having a backup isn't that expensive.

The wizard and the sorcerer are not supposed to have parity. :smalltongue: If you wanted them to have parity you'd first have to fix the spellcasting progression.

[demigodus]

That's not challenging the player, though. That's asking him to tone his stuff down and coming to an agreement. I'm talking about actually making the player sweat, like putting monsters with Swallow Whole against a melee fighter or undead against a rogue. The game isn't fun unless you're struggling at least some of the time.

There is a difference between making the players struggle, and straight up negating all combat related class features they have in combat. The undead against a rogue kinda falls under the second category. Ideally, you should be making them sweat in a way where they can still use their class features.