Evil?

[SSGoW]

A group my friend plays in told me a few things that happen last session that I think (and if I was DM) would count as evil.

The group caught a young wizard using the name of waterdeep to collect tolls when it was a lie, he was just robbing ppl using illusions.

They took him back and it turned out to be a magistrate's sun (aparently created by one of the players who was the DM before).

Said magistrate framed the party so that he could get them to find the passage way under his house where a devil and an artifact lies (they found out said devil was controlling the Magistrate.

In the boy's room they found drawlings of his classmates (each having a name to it). After getting rid of the Devil, the magistrate thanked them and payed them and even said he may have more jobs for them.

They took the pictures, found his seal, and gave them to their friends at the theives guild to destroy him pollitically. However due to the nature of the crimes he was sentenced to hang. The party was given time to defend him/save him but even the LG type wanted no part in it. Don't get me wrong, he is a politician so it ain't like the guy was LG -_-

I told him that this should have been a CE act (though lawful through chaotic means with the right explanation). Should this bump the party closer to evil, it will already have a impact on the plot but I'm trying to get the DM to show the players why that is evil.

[hamishspence]

What precisely is the "Evil act"?

"Framing an employer"

"Failure to defend somebody they know to have been possessed therefore not guilty"?

"Betraying an employer"?

Betrayal is traditionally an Evil act (BoVD) - but "not helping someone in need of help" is a bit more blurry.

[FearlessGnome]

A Paladin who took part in this should Fall. Now, you didn't say there was a Paladin in the party, so things become a little less clear. The possessed mayor is not accountable for what he did while possessed (It's not like he voluntarily became possessed by Evil Outsiders, right?), and the party choosing not only not to defend him, but even to frame him... That is most certainly Evil. Alone it may not be enough to cause an Alignment Shift (Though it should, in the case of anyone with the audacity to call such a character Lawful Good), but it certainly puts them near the edge. Next time they do anything illegal, I'd remove Lawful from all applicable character sheets. Next time they do anything Evil, I'd erase Good.

[KillianHawkeye]

Alone it may not be enough to cause an Alignment Shift (Though it should, in the case of anyone with the audacity to call such a character Lawful Good), but it certainly puts them near the edge. Next time they do anything illegal, I'd remove Lawful from all applicable character sheets. Next time they do anything Evil, I'd erase Good.

I don't believe Lawful Good characters should be held to a stricter standard than characters of any other alignment. If such activities warrant an alignment shift, they should do so regardless of whether the character is Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, or whatever.

[Steward]

Before you start fiddling with alignment, did the players give you a reason why they did that? It sounds like they just threw away a potential contact / resource for no reason.

[hewhosaysfish]

Wait, why were they trying to destroy this guy's career?
They found out he was possessed, freed him from the thrall of the devil, received a reward and then... started plotting against him?
If they'd just turned round and stabbed him in the crotch I would have said they were playing a textbook example of the Stupid Evil alignment; as it stands they're employing slightly more subtle methods than are typical for Stupid Evil but still...
Did they perhaps think the guy was still under fiendish influnce? Did they suspect he had summoned the Devil in the first place? Or something? Some reason why they would categorise him as an enemy to be stopped rather than just a dude?

[Telonius]

Alignment is not generally about single acts, unless they're extremely serious or over-the-top. It's about the general way the character will act in a given situation. If this situation is typical of how they act? Here's how I'd break it down.

So, the general scheme of things is that the players thwarted a robber and a possessed magistrate, then made sure the magistrate's crimes were exposed. All of that indicates a Law - I could definitely see a Cleric of St. Cuthbert giving his approval. Punish the guilty no matter what, and all that.

However, they do have friends in the Thieves' Guild, and from what you've said, nobody seems to have a problem with that. They aren't turning in the Thieves, for whatever reason. So it seems they only go out of their way to fight chaos when it suits them. I'd say, taken all together, Neutral with a leaning towards Law.

As for Good/Evil? Neutral. They did fight a devil, but that was kind of incidental to the whole thing. They aren't going too far out of their way to hurt people (with the exception of the magistrate, who was somehow consorting with devils after all).

Now if they deliberately withheld evidence (that only they had) that he was unwillingly possessed at the time - and that was the only thing that could have saved him from hanging? That changes things considerably. I'd peg it as mid-range Chaotic Evil. Not total moustache-twirling villainy yet, but it's needless cruelty and a perversion of justice.

[SSGoW]

Well as I was told they knew the pictures weren't his and knew he didn't want the devil around . They went out of their way to frame him and when the punishment was death they didn't come to his defense.

They wanted to get him back for getting the gaurds after them (his plan was to talk to them and push them in the right direction to find the devil) he actually caught one player and made a deal with him...telling him to go help the party and he would be rewarded.

The magistrate never did anything to actually harm them, though he did put them in harms way (for the better of waterdeep).

Ill post more later after talking more with their DM

[FearlessGnome]

Yeah, that's a party wide Conspiracy to Commit Murder, with a side helping of Murder. If I was the DM, this alone would be enough to erase Good and Lawful from all applicable sheets.

[Telonius]

One other thing I'm a bit unclear on ... so how exactly were the pictures supposed to bring him down politically? What was the crime that the town was supposed to be hanging the magistrate for - having a kid who likes to draw?

[SSGoW]

One other thing I'm a bit unclear on ... so how exactly were the pictures supposed to bring him down politically? What was the crime that the town was supposed to be hanging the magistrate for - having a kid who likes to draw?

The PC's forged a letter made out to a "Friend" and used his seal to seal the letter. They had the theives guild have it "accidently" land into the wrong hands (aka a politician that oposses the magistrate). They made it so it looked/seemed like his own stuff not his son's stuff.

Yeah...

Consorting with devils
Illegal pictures/items
Letter explaining horrible things
Using the name waterdeep for personal gain illegally (some fake toll booth etc)

These are what the magistrate got charged and found guilt of.

"He was hanged as a traitor to waterdeep, traitor to the people, and a sick bastard"

[Sturmcrow]

Wait so you are saying they committed several crimes that led to someone's death. Sounds pretty Evil to me using the D&D Alignment framework

[Telonius]

Okay, active frame-up plus lies, forgery, and ensuring the trail can't lead back to you? That's a whole different story. Clearly CE.