Assassin type build

[Myth]

Hello playgrouders,

I've searched around for an Assassin's handbook, but the only thing that comes up is a 3rd party book which I won't read even if you gave it for free. I am actually and genuinely interested in builds that fit the Assassin theme. Here are some things to note:

- I like the Assassin class and want to know how to use it and how to enter it. I don't think the capstone is worth it. I've heard a great deal about their nice spells that came in SC. Any particular good ones?
- Darkstalker. I'm sure it's as good as it says. Any other "must have" feats?
- The Dark template was it? The one that grants HIPS? Details on this? Any other templates of note?
- An Assassin for me must be able to provide the utility/scout/sneak/infiltrator function and deal precision damage. I know I can do it with a Wizard, but let's not go there. How to be mobile and achieve good 3D movement with a character that fits the theme?

First I thought of Shadowdancer because it's SRD, but unless I'm missing something, this is severely limited. I mean seriously... 180 feet per day? What is this? Swordsage with Shadow Hand has been praised a lot. Please do give details. Which maneuvers are good? Stances? Any tricks?

What else is good? Items? (Anklets of Translocation, Belt of Battle etc.) What is the deal with Horizon Walker being suggested in some builds? What am I missing there?

Please and thank you.

P.S. If this thread gets enough valuable knowledge, I volunteer to compile it into our own Assassin's Handbook.

[Eonir]

One of my more favorite characters was an assassin actually.

He was a Rogue5/swordsage6/Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)9. Hell of a lot of fun, if slightly MAD.

The reason this build was awesome was his SA (easily 10-11d6 if I recall corectly), maneuvers, and spells. The assassin list has some gems, wrathstrike, find the gap, spider climb, invisibility, et al. The swordsage maneuver list is fun AND useful. And you get to pick up Assassin's Stance, which adds 2d6 SA and lets you use the Shadow Blade feat (giving you dex to damage! Just make sure your DM lets text trump table).

The Dark Template is very nice, the fluff is a little strange though. It can be found here. (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/dark.shtml)

Items....

For one you definitely want to be TWF with the Assasin enchantment on your weapons, it adds +1d6 sneak attack. It can be found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) Anklets of translocation are good to have, because you want mobility. Rogue's Vest is nice for more SA. And of course a ring of invisibility wouldn't be half bad either.

Darkstalker lets you hide from blindsight. TAKE THAT FEAT.

I have no idea about the Horizon Walker :/

EDIT: I guess you could take the Slayer of Domiel PrC from BoED instead of Avenger if you wanted to be exalted. It gets some cool things like Divine Grace, and an arguable better spell list, but their signature ability "Death Touch" is pretty much useless, and you need two USELESS feats to get into it.

[unundindur]

Are you set on that PrC, or the concept as a whole? This have always been my favourite niche in D&D and here are some of my builds:

This build requires two flaws from Unearthed Arcane:
Rogue3/Diviner2/Daggerspell mage 10/Unseen Seer5
Feats: Extend spell, practised spellcaster, weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, arcane thesis, persist magic, greater two weapon fighting, craven, weapon focus (dagger).

If I recall correctly it should end up with a sneak attack of 17d6+20 damage, and with 6 attacks that is quite a bit.

The general setup should be:


1. Get in position
2. Cast Quickened Wraithstrike
3. Attack 6 times, sending of two touch spells (such as Vampiric Touch, touch of idiocy, or something much more horrible)
4. Release fully loaded Bloodstone weapons.

If this works out (we are talking touch-attacks here) we are looking at 12 Con damage, 50d6 negative energy damage (vampiric touch*5), 102d6+120 damage, not counting the actual weapondamage and other spells.

This is by far the most dangerous build, but it is basically a backstabbing wizard and requires a lot of tweaking, so if that doesn't fit your idea (which is perfectly understandable), skip it :smallwink:


Warblade5/Dark Hunter5/Assassin10
This is a straight up fighter with an incredible death attack (DC 25+INT+MISC). It is very simple, requiring no special feats or tactics.


In the odd case you are playing E6 (as I do, http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352719-necro-goodness-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D), this is how it's done:
Ranger1/Fighter1/Warblade4
Exchange fighter feat for sneak attack (Unearthed arcana), take martial study (assassin's stance at the first feat after lv 6) and go to town as one of the very few who have 4 attacks (dual wield) and +3d6 sneak attack.


Generally I would say you should either focus on getting your Death attack DC as high as possible, or getting an enormous sneak attack. Doing both is tricky.

Apart from that:
The Teflammar Shadowlord PrC from unapproachable east is quite good.
Same goes for Imaskari Vengeance taker from the Underdark book (notice how it gets +level to damage vs target).
Dread Fang of Lolth is a PrC in Drow ofthe Underdark that should not be underestimated. It's final ability is really really devastating, and it has relevant abilities all over the place. Beeing a drow is not to bad as an assassin.

I would also recommend the Craven feat
If dual-wielding you want two weapons of greater wounding. Dealing 2 con damage on each hit is a big deal later on. The ability comes from a demon in MM2, which was errataed into awesomeness for 3.5
If you are going for death attack optimization you want an assassin's dagger from DMG, bracers of murder from Drow of the Underdark, Headband of Intellect +6 and Ability Focus (Death Attack) from the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ability_Focus).
The Bloodstone ability from MiC is also sweet, since an assassin hopefully works a lot like a flash-build.
If you ever use poisons, an Assassination weapon from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) is also a good deal :)
Mask of true seeing is good for anyone at 75.000 (Unapproachable east), this also goes for soulfire armor (Book of exalted deeds) and fortification armor (DMG) and ring of freedom (DMG).
Get Mind Blank one way or the other.
Item familiar feat from Unearthed Arcane suits a lot of lonely assassins
You want a big bag of holding for all those bodies, and later on you want some way to cast Soulbind on them. Nothing as pesky as killing a paladin, only to have him turn the world around to kick you later on.
Ioun stone of sustainance suits my kind of assassins
Collar Of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic is broken, thus good.
The Paralyzing ability from Book of Exalted deeds is cheap, and great.

You probably want weapon argumentation crystals from MiC so you can use Death attack/sneak attack on Constructs and undead too :smallsmile:

[Eonir]

I would also recommend the Craven feat

So much this. +1 damage a level, PER HIT. At 6 attacks by 20th level, you're looking at 120 more damage a round.

[Malachei]

Rogue (Skills->Able Learner), Swordsage (better Ninja than the Ninja, Assassin's Stance, Dex->damage, Wis->AC), Swashbuckler 3 (Int->damage)

[Particle_Man]

- An Assassin for me must be able to provide the utility/scout/sneak/infiltrator function and deal precision damage. I know I can do it with a Wizard, but let's not go there. How to be mobile and achieve good 3D movement with a character that fits the theme?

What is the deal with Horizon Walker being suggested in some builds? What am I missing there?

I will try to answer both at once: The HW in 3.5 gets at level 6 some interesting stuff, including as one option the chance to dimension door every 1 to 4 rounds, which often takes care of the 3D movement issue. (Warlock 6 can do that even more often, but you seem to want to stay away from teh magic) Ranger/Rogue/HW thus becomes an option.

Also are you looking for Assassin as in "kill anything" or Assassin as in "kill the usual types of victims that people in high places would pay me good money to kill (i.e. human aristocrats)"? Because that can change the build. The short version of former is sometimes called "Adventurer" though. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and short swords of subtlety can be fun - +1 weapons that add +4 to hit and damage when you sneak attack. So you could get those and enchant to +5 weapons that become +9 when you sneak attack. Add humanbane to make them +11 (and add 2d6 damage) vs. the assassin's usual victims.

[Myth]

Wow, thank you guys. Great responses, as usual! :smallbiggrin: I laughed at this:


Also are you looking for Assassin as in "kill anything" or Assassin as in "kill the usual types of victims that people in high places would pay me good money to kill (i.e. human aristocrats)"? Because that can change the build. The short version of former is sometimes called "Adventurer"

Anyway, lots of good advice yes. It seems there is quite a lot of assasin-y equipment to be had. Equipment and poison brewing (there was that one feat in DoU about poison making) seem to be essential.

Regarding the Swordsage: their recovery mechanic sucks *usually*. But an assassin type character has to go in, kill someone, and get out. If he is a PC, he has to go in, kill that one guy, and retreat back to the party but let the enemy goblin tribe start without their shaman of Orcus or whatever.

So using SS simply for the mobility maneuvers and Assassin's Stance, their recovery mechanic isn't an issue then? What are the best maneuvers to gun for?

How does Shadowdancer even exist when so many better options are to be had? Seriously:

1st Hide in plain sight - redundant with Assassin. Dark template gives a better (Ex) version of this. (Ex) abilities are nice.
2nd Evasion, darkvision, uncanny dodge - Evasion is marginally useful and redundant with Rogue 2, Darkvision is redundant with the Dark template and several race choices, uncanny dodge is redundant with Rogue and Warblade and is rather unimportant.
3rd Shadow illusion, summon shadow - 1st level spell once per day. A situatuinally useful companion that basically makes you lose xp.
4th Shadow jump 20 ft. - Horizon Walker does this every 1d4 rounds as mentioned. This is also once per day. Horrible. SS's maneuvers refresh between fights...
5th Defensive roll, improved uncanny dodge - Defensive roll is good but if you're getting mauled by HP damage as such a character you're probably doing it wrong. IUD is so-so.
6th Shadow jump 40 ft., summon shadow - :smallannoyed:
7th Slippery mind - nice, though Mind Blank is a must. Being undead or Warforged or anything else makes this useless.
8th Shadow jump 80 ft. :smallannoyed:
9th Summon shadow :smallannoyed:
10th Shadow jump 160 ft., improved evasion - basically :smallannoyed:

Race choice? This depends of course, if LA buyoff is allowed and if this is a PC or NPC. A NPC of a race that can wait, suspended from a ceiling for 20 hours, until the mark comes home is interesting. PC's tend to lack such patience.

So depending on the maneuvers chosen Horizon Walker may be unneeded or compliment Swordsage greatly. I need to know what are the best mobility and assasin-aiding maneuvers to have and where to cut off SS progression.

The items suggestions are all good. I know there are a couple of ways to get SA to work on things usually immune to it. Anyone care to list them (I remember some crystals in the MiC for that)?

This can really turn out to be a good "Asassin's Handbook" by the way :smallsmile:

What about skill choices?

[Malachei]

UMD is very important.


Dark template gives a better (Ex) version of this. (Ex) abilities are nice.

Yes, because it does not fall to AMF, but note the difference. HiPS (Ex) of the dark template is not the same as assassin's HiPS (Su): The (Su) includes both hiding when observed, as well as hiding within 10 ft. of shadow. The HiPS (Ex) only covers the first aspect (i.e. hiding under observation).


Regarding the Swordsage: their recovery mechanic sucks *usually*. But an assassin type character has to go in, kill someone, and get out.

Completely agree, and if multiclassing penalties are waived, I'd always throw in a level or more of Warblade for the maneuvers you want to refresh during combat. Still, I'd go for Swordsage as the main path, because its maneuvers much better support the assassin archetype.

Race Choice:
Human, for the feat. You'll often want to go TWF (with Tiger Claw), and even if not, Swordsage assassin is feat-taxing.
Also, Whisper Gnome is great, changeling might be nice, and I'd say a race that is good for a rogue is good for an assassin, as well.

Actually, the rogue handbooks may answer a large share of the questions that arise when creating an assassin build.

Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

Another Rogue Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook)

The best maneuvers for an assassin build would be mostly in Shadow Hand (Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Blink come to mind for maneuverability, for attacking Death in the Dark is interesting, others as well). But the discipline has a few weaknesses (several maneuvers you can too easily save against, and (Su)). Especially when fighting against wizards or a party, an assassin will be on his own and the only target for spells. Hence, having the Diamond Mind save counters may be really important, as well as maximizing Concentration and getting a skill-booster item. I think for almost any character (except a full caster) who can have a high Concentration, a one-level Swordsage dip that brings Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought and Mind Over Body is worth it, alone.

Then you need a maneuver against the charger (Counter Charge), against the Stormguard Warrior kicking you with Avalanche of Blades (Baffling Defense, perhaps).

For attacking, apart from Shadow Hand, Dancing Mongoose (and later, Raging Mongoose) for additional attacks and Pouncing Charge from Tiger Claw are interesting. Swooping Dragon Strike is outstanding, because it stuns with a save DC equal to your jump check.

Also, staying with your target is important, which would be Mirrored Pursuit.

There are a couple of Swordsage handbooks that also address the issue.

Although I think that an assassin handbook may be in part redundant with the rogue's, swordsage's, and perhaps beguiler's handbooks... if you want to do a handbook, I'd gladly cover the Tome of Battle parts.

[Eonir]

The swordsage also gets a maneuver called "Distracting Ember"; a swift action with no save that makes your enemy flat footed. Shadow Jump, Distracting Ember, Death Attack. Rinse, repeat, cash the freaking check.

[Particle_Man]

Distracting Ember gives you flanking actually, but same thing barring high level opponents with Improved Uncanny Dodge (and suddenly those Rogue/Assassin levels don't look so bad, do they?). :smallsmile:

[Azoth]

As much as you don't like the wizard approach a rogue gish is your best shot in my opinion and one I play often. The dark template is always a plus to any sneak build IF LA buyoff is allowed. If not then the collar of umbral metamorphosis has a permanent version pretty cheap.

I recommend rogue1/wiz5/UsS10/ArcTrk4. Able learner and practiced spellcaster are a must, craven and darkstalker help immensely. The build gives 9th level spells, 6d6 sneak attack, and if I remember right a total of 12 BAB. You also get 3 divination spells from any list. So while greater TWFing is out of the question you can still get Improved two weapon fighting for only the cost of TWFing if you used gloves of the balanced for only 18k.

The massive amount of spells will help you assassinate like a boss, and even in a magical deadzone you can still rely on massive skillpoints to be the skill monkey, and your respectable sneak attack damage to drop foes. For armor use the gold standard +1 mithral twilight chain shirt for decent armor and 0% ASP

[Myth]

Azoth, with respect, due to your recent join date perhaps you did not understand why I said I don't want anyone to tell me "roll a Wizard instead". I know how to build and play a Wizard. I don't need an assassin type build with 9th level spells. Why would I even use 6d6 SA when I can Gate in a Solar? No need for that, but thank you.

[Malachei]

Yes, who needs an assassin anyway? Gate in a solar instead. Oh, well, the solar will probably have the typical alignment restrictions of his kind, but still. :)

[Piggy Knowles]

A nice alternative to Shadowdancer is the Hellbreaker, from Fiendish Codex II.

Like the Shadowdancer, the Hellbreaker requires three subpar feats to enter, and gives Hide in Plain Sight at first level.

Unlike the Shadowdancer, the Hellbreaker can be entered by ECL 6, and also gives a bunch of other neat and unique abilities. In particular, it also gets at first level a telepathic static ability that suppresses telepathy and divination, and is one of the only ways I know of to beat Mindsight.

It also progresses sneak attack (slowly), gives you the ability to steal SLAs and supernatural effects, and more.

Anyhow, my favorite assassin-y build is Vecna-Blooded Human, Factotum 8/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 10, with Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) and Master of Poisons, plus a lot of Font of Inspiration. Take the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to pick up the Dark template for Hide in Plain Sight, or if LA buyoff is allowed, you can always just take the template.

Vecna-Blooded is from the MMV "God-blooded" template, and requires you to answer a bunch of riddles and have 2nd-level spells, but makes you flat-out immune to divinations.

Hidden Talent is found in Expanded Psionics Handbook on page 67, and gives you access to a 1st-level power. Use it to get Psionic Minor Creation, which will let you create plant matter out of thin air. Use that plant matter as the raw material to craft poisons. Master of Poisons is found in Drow of the Underdark, and lets you use poisons without risk, and apply it as a swift action.

Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) gives you lots more inspiration points, which you can use to deal sneak attack damage, get bonuses on rolls, or gain extra actions in combat. The Swiftblade prestige class will also let you take extra actions. All these extra actions will add up, I promise...

The net result is a very fast and deadly character with an affinity for poisons, who is almost impossible to detect and counter. It may not have as much earth-shattering ability as a Wizard, but it can keep up with most parties and fills its niche very well.

[Myth]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the best race would be either Human Necropolitan or Warforged.

Mindsight? Nope. Contact poisons all over your person and equipment? Yep.

Hellbreaker sounds great, I'll have to take a look at it. Vecna Blooded is really good. That item for HIPS is good if you're ignoring the actual Asassin class. Honestly though, with it's good SA progression and spellcasting, why would I?

But the amount of variety is staggering. For a gestalt campaign this can be superb.

[hamishspence]

Yes, because it does not fall to AMF, but note the difference. HiPS (Ex) of the dark template is not the same as assassin's HiPS (Su): The (Su) includes both hiding when observed, as well as hiding within 10 ft. of shadow. The HiPS (Ex) only covers the first aspect (i.e. hiding under observation).


Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave has a slightly more powerful version of the Dark template than Tome of Magic does- you can hide even when lacking cover or concealment. Like the assassin version it's Supernatural. And it doesn't explicitly require you to be within 10 ft of some kind of shadow.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, if your goal is to pick up teleportation, the Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) feat will give you Dimension Door at will, albeit at very short range. Two levels in Totemist is an even better option, since that will give you essentia to extend the range and access to other soulmelds, and the Totem chakra bind. Binding the Blink Shirt to your Totem chakra lets you DimDoor as a move action at will, which is very nice when combined with Telflammar Shadowlord (letting you attack, teleport, and full attack).

And while we're talking incarnum, a three level dip in Umbral Disciple will give you a blur-like effect, Hide in Plain Sight, and a die of Sneak damage.

Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Cobra Strike Monk 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 makes a very good start for a teleporting, shadowpouncing assassin. You could finish it out with more Telf. Shadowlord plus some assassin, or Swiftblade, or whatever.

[Azoth]

Dude I get the whole didn't want a wizard thing. However, don't talk down to me because of my join date. Just because at high levels you can gate in a solar doesn't mean you have to. You can use high level slots for others and actually play an assassin that has a wizard base without playing god or dominating every encounter and making your team be a cheering squad while you one shot greater deities. Though if you don't want that base then I am sorry for suggesting it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

This far in the thread and the only mention of psionics was for making black lotus poison?

Lurk, ebon saint (kinda), psychic assassin/psychic rogue, shadowmind (okay, not really).

All good choices - the psychic assassin in particular gets some pretty neat powers to choose from.

If you like the teleportation aspect, try and nab Web as either a spell or an SLA so you can grab Yatchol (sp?) Webrider (Und). By 10th level, you can go 1280'/day.

[Particle_Man]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the best race would be either Human Necropolitan or Warforged.

Or treants. No one would suspect a treant. :smallbiggrin:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Or treants. No one would suspect a treant. :smallbiggrin:

Durkon would.

[unundindur]

Dude I get the whole didn't want a wizard thing. However, don't talk down to me because of my join date. Just because at high levels you can gate in a solar doesn't mean you have to. You can use high level slots for others and actually play an assassin that has a wizard base without playing god or dominating every encounter and making your team be a cheering squad while you one shot greater deities. Though if you don't want that base then I am sorry for suggesting it.

I would put my signature on this

[Particle_Man]

Durkon would.

Yet another reason why it is so hard to assassinate dwarven clerics. :smallbiggrin:

[Red_Dog]

Hello there.

Assassin is potentially my most favorite class in 3.5. I'll give a few pointers if no-one minds ^^ I'll keep it short because I can go on all day about this, and very few people listen... anyways ^^ =>

Entry
Best Entry hands down is=> Human Factotum 3/Fighter 2[Hit'n'Run]/Assassin 10 or Factotum 4/Fighter 1[Hit'n'Run & Sneak attack variants]
There are number of entries one can use to enter Assassin, but most of them do not have a 10th of a synergy that Factotum-Assassin gets. Fighter 2 there just for any combat feats you might want to get, alternatively Sneak Attack fighter nets you extra d6 of sneak attack.
***It is also quite possible to enter thru Factotum 5 alone in order to get an access to very early wraith strike. However, wand of Wraith strike isn't overly expensive.***

Feats/Spells/Items
Other feats depend on your combat style. I would HIGHLY advise able learner. Another important feat could be Staggering Strike as it works every time you sneak attack and severely limits your foe. Sickening Strike is also nice because it should apply before DEATH attack and therefore improve you effective DC(by lowering save). Ability focus of course is useful and can be gotten as early as level 6. As for the rest, since you possess Factotum base, when in doubt take font of inspiration ^^.

There are a tons of spells that are cool. Most of them are fairly easy to make/buy into/as wands. Wraith Strike makes your attacks into touch attacks as a swift actions (can be used during surprise round!), Vital Strike makes your next attack be a sneak attack regardless of circumstances, Deathsight when combined with Haste lets you perform a Death attack PER turn. Combined with wand chambers, this is a potent weapon in your arsenal. Nightmare Terrain, is of course amazing as always ^^. Remember that Deathsight has NO numeric components and thus is unaffected by caster level, so when making/buying a wand keep that in mind to reduce the price as much as you can ^^.

From gear, I would highly recommend Bracers of Murder. +2 on Death attack DC and stacks with other means of boosting Death Attack ^^. Besides that, wand chambers from Dungeonscape are a MUST on any weapon bar improvised ^^. True Death/Demolition crystals are always a nice purchase ^^. There is a metric ton and a half of other gear, but that is way to long to describe ^^

Play Style/Math
I spent hours by talking about this, but basically play it like you mean it! ^^ You are an assassin, there is nothing wrong with doing things like bluffing your way into a tea party, studying your target for 3 rounds [explicitly sates that you can do other stuff in DMG!! like drink your tea ^^], than use a tea cup as an improvised weapon to wraith strike[swift] a flatfooted foe, boosted by Inspiration[free] ^^ Remember though, this behavior pisses of railroading DMs as the DM will never truly know when are you going to attack your next target ^^ Especially in not character she/he doesn't ^^.

As per math =>
10base+10CL+10to12IntMOD+Bracers[2]+Focus[2]+Sickening[2]=DC36/38+
You could buff the DC by 2 with 3 levels of Uncanny Trickster ^^.
While an average wizard with lvl9spell has
10+9+2[focuses]+10/12Int=31/33. Wizard gets a first lvl9 by lvl17. You have this by lvl15. by NO means am I saying that wizard can't stack DC[snowcasting, etc.], or you are more versatile/powerful, but I am just saying that your Save-or-Die DC is plenty competitive ^^.

================================================>
At some point, I should really right Assassin's Handbook. That however takes too much time *rollseyes*

================================================>
P.S.

Warblade5/Dark Hunter5/Assassin10
This is a straight up fighter with an incredible death attack (DC 25+INT+MISC). It is very simple, requiring no special feats or tactics.

Just so you know, the Death Attack by RAW only stacks for Black Flame Zealot and Assassin, because its explicitly states so in Black Flame Zealot's entry. The DM may allow this to stack, but, as far as I understand, by RAW, since Black Flame Zealot is the only one explicitly states the stacking, anyone else who doesn't state this, shouldn't stack.

[unundindur]

Good last post there, and thanks for reminding me about staggering strike :)

Another key item for assassins is the Amulet of second chances from Magic item compendium. Few can take such extreme benefit from rewinding a turn as an assassin after a failed death attack :smallwink:

[Red_Dog]

Another key item for assassins is the Amulet of second chances from Magic item compendium

100% True. If you have an opportunity to snatch one, go for it with both hands.
I wouldn't expend WBL towards it, especially early on. May be if you start at lvl15, than why not? ^^ Also keep in mind, that while re-rolling death attack is important, if it was during the surprise round, and target turned out to be immune or what have you, just undo the whole thing and keep drinking that tea like nothing happened!^^

Besides Bracers, my favorite item still has to be Wand of Deathsight. It costs as far as I know[CL7x4x750] 21k. Mix with potions of Haste and a wand chamber and go bananas! ^^ I am sure you can get all of that and a complementary doze of purple worm poison in your local Assassins Inc. ^^

P.S. Also, unundindur just unrelated thing I forgot to mention

Teflammar Shadowlord
If you want NightCrawler action, forget this class. Its too demanding. You could try entering later on, but first do this=>

Go Monk 2[pick your variant]/2Totemist/2 Something w/ FullBAB, a Warblade perhaps?
On level 6 take Sun School feat from CWar.
This nets you Blink shirt that specifically states that you can use teleport as move action. Doesn't mean you still can't use it as standard Action. For Race, I'd go Azurin and not Human as they also give a feat, but trade skills for much needed essentia. This means that you just pumped 3 points and can port twice a turn for 40ft. At the end of each port, if you are able to, thanks to Sun School, you can make one melee attack(sadly not a standard action) at your highest BAB.

So there you have it, 2 attacks per turn at your highest BAB, 2 bonus feats from Monk[variants gives a good selection], another soulmeld that fencies you and ability to zoom around the battlefield like a NightCrawler! ^^ Just get few ranks in disguise and paint yourself purple and you are good to go! ^^

If you selected Azurin, than after this 6 level dip so to speak... you can just go full Incarnate as you only opened your totem chacra and nothing else! ^^ If you had selected Human, than grab bonus essentia feat[gives 2 extra essentia, enough to get you to lvl18!^^] and go full Warblade for all anyone cares as dip is 2/2/2 and no Multiclassing penalties will be incurred! ^^

[unundindur]

Well, Shadowpounce (Nutters)/Death attack/mislead (as 3rd lv spell..., rod of metamagic gallore) is kind of the reason to do a Teflammar Shadowlord imo :smallsmile:

[Myth]

I'm reading on the Shadowlord right now. I got to the feat requirements:


Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack :smallconfused:

This class better offer some nice things for the cost of three useless feats.

[Red_Dog]

I just prefer my shenanigans to start ASAP ^^ hence if I can get my main gimmick by E6, its a win in my book ^^. But I suppose its a matter of taste/campaign start ^^

I do not recall full Teflammar Shadowlord reqs. I remember 10 HIDE&MOVE. I think with 2/2/2 deal you still can jump into it at some point. This might mean that every time you port you would get both Full Attack and additional attack from sun school. ^^

Just be mindful, as far as I know, you can not make more than ONE death attack per round [without Factotum8 extra action machine w/ Deathsight wand Shenaniganery]. But spitting 3 full attacks +3 while porting in and out would be AMAZING even without death attack. To get 3rd full attack, obtain some sort of swift action teleport. Perhaps a Dorje of Inconstant Location? Absolutely AMAZING power and essentially only need to be used once per encounter. You need to cross-class UPD for that. Or talk a friendly wizard in Dimension Shuffling the group. Or be a psychic class and use nothing but Dimension Hop to slowly burn thru PP pool ^^

But Teflammar Shadowlord over all is its OWN track load of bait, and really should be discussed outside assassin advise. Assassin type, sure. But more of Dimension Assassin ^^ I would call him dimension warrior TBH.

P.S. EDIT Myth=>

I'm reading on the Shadowlord right now. I got to the feat requirements:



Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack


This class better offer some nice things for the cost of three useless feats.

Easy Peasy => one of variant monks in my 2/2/2 set up nets you dodge & mobility as bonus. Spring attack and sun school are 2 other feats. Dodge&Mobility would be burned feats in this build, but 3FullAttack+3 is frankly sooo amazing, I actually want to play this now ^^. Above all for me, with 2/2/2 approach, the build actually scales instead of being patchy as all hell.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you want NightCrawler action, forget this class. Its too demanding. You could try entering later on, but first do this=>

Go Monk 2[pick your variant]/2Totemist/2 Something w/ FullBAB, a Warblade perhaps?
On level 6 take Sun School feat from CWar.
This nets you Blink shirt that specifically states that you can use teleport as move action. Doesn't mean you still can't use it as standard Action. For Race, I'd go Azurin and not Human as they also give a feat, but trade skills for much needed essentia. This means that you just pumped 3 points and can port twice a turn for 40ft. At the end of each port, if you are able to, thanks to Sun School, you can make one melee attack(sadly not a standard action) at your highest BAB.

Unfortunately, this doesn't quite work. DimDoor still prevents you from taking any actions after using it. Telflammar Shadowlord and Sun School both give you some specific exceptions, allowing you to attack, but they don't give you your turn back. So, you can't DimDoor (standard), attack, DimDoor (move), attack, because after the first DimDoor/attack, you can't take any more actions.

However, what you CAN do is attack with your standard action, DimDoor as your move action, and then get a bonus attack (either a single one via Sun School, or a full attack via Telflammar Shadowlord). Still very good, just not quite the way you described.

I believe that, barring some Inspire Greatness/reformation or similar shenanigans, you cannot enter Telflammar Shadowlord earlier than ECL 8.

[Red_Dog]

Unfortunately, this doesn't quite work. DimDoor still prevents you from taking any actions after using it. Telflammar Shadowlord and Sun School both give you some specific exceptions, allowing you to attack, but they don't give you your turn back. So, you can't DimDoor (standard), attack, DimDoor (move), attack, because after the first DimDoor/attack, you can't take any more actions.

However, what you CAN do is attack with your standard action, DimDoor as your move action, and then get a bonus attack (either a single one via Sun School, or a full attack via Telflammar Shadowlord). Still very good, just not quite the way you described.

I believe that, barring some Inspire Greatness/reformation or similar shenanigans, you cannot enter Telflammar Shadowlord earlier than ECL 8.

As far as I understand, the whole point of swift teleportation (Hop, Inconstant location, etc.) was that you in fact CAN take any actions you feel like it afterwards. And it would trigger Sun School's extra attack.

That being said, I do not have incurnum in front of me to argue for/against you on move action/standard action blink shirt.

You are also correct => To enter Teflammar, you need ECL8 due to skills.

P.S. I was trying to come up with ways to max dmg per attack since sun schools attack is an attack and NOT a standard action. My best idea currently is => Wand Chamber + Wand of Wraith strike[swift action and 4700gp) + str + power attack. BAB takes a hit from Totemist and Monk, but to be fair not by much. And since one doesn't need it to be exactly 6 to get shock trooper [wraith strike = touch attacks, so who cares about penalty?]. Also since this idea is not uber feat intensive, one can pick up exotic weapon and enter Exotic weapon master 1 some time later for uncanny blow.

[Myth]

OK so it appears that TSL (Teflammar Shadowlord) has a Death Attack that stacks with that of the Assassin Class.
First of all, it is heavily flavored for a specific god. And I care for such things (though I realize not everyone does and they can refluff the PrC)

Second of all, let's look at what we're getting:

1st Shadowsight, shadow jump
2nd Shadow blur
3rd Shadow walk
4th Shadow pounce
5th Shadow discorporation
6th Death attack

Shadowsight is nice, but nothing superior than an item of True Seeing, or paying the fee of having a NPC cast True Seeing on you and making it Permanent.

Shadow Jump is the same as that oft he Shadowdancer and explicitly does not stack with it. So it sucks, basically. 20 feet per TSL level per DAY.

Shadow blur - a somewhat limited use of the effect of a second level spell. Nothing to write home about.

Shadow Walk - level 5th Bard or level 6th Sor/Wiz spell. Largely inferior to Teleport. I would rather UMD a scroll of Teleport than rely on this thing, making me pop in 100 feet above the streets...

Shadow Pounce (Ex): This is excellent, really. This thing can let you pop up behind a flying opponent and skewer them. It has style and It will really synergism well with the Swordsage's Ex teleportation abilities that are NOT once per day for 20 feet or other some such nonsense.

Shadow dis corporation is nice, I won't say it's great, but it's nice. It's no Deathless Frenzy or Indomitably but it can save your hide in a botched up assassination attempt.

Stacking Death Attack is nice but the actual ability falls short unless you optimize it. I'd rather optimize my sneak attack, full attacks and mobility.

Overall, I'd discontinue after Shadow Pounce and look to other reliable teleportation methods.

[Red_Dog]

=>Myth

Do keep in mind, that you get your own spells. Its always nice to have those ^^.

Other than that, people take that class specifically for shadow pounce. If the DM lets your swordsage abilities qualify for the class, than straight human[too many bleeding feats] w/ perhaps Fighter2 would be the best entry ^^. Sword sage gets 3 teleports and can do a mean little cycle that goes something like this=>

standard port+full attack, move port+full attack, swift port+full attack, next round full round action refresh, swift port+full attack. Rinse-Repeat ^^.

Alternatively, if swordage won't cut it to enter Teflammar, you can dip monk2 to get suns school and just be swordsage and have 3 attacks per turn with full bonus and use the same wraith strike+power attack gimmick as I've suggested. ^^ Blue paint, or wand of prestidigitation optional ^^.

[unundindur]

Myth, I am trying to figure out exactly what you want.

So far I have compiled your writing into something like:


Sneak-attack based (as in not death attack).
Not magic-based.

If this is correct you are already in non-optimized territory, and in this paradigm the assassin class in really mewh as it is basically a worse rogue with spells and death attack...

More details as to where you want to go would be swell :smallcool:

[Averis Vol]

if you can spare the race you can be a dwarf and 2H your fists for US. if this is interpreted right that means you can PA for 2:1. sadly you cant flurry, which you don't seem to be doing much of in the first place so, you know, win baby.

[unundindur]

Oh, I forgot to mention that you can be really cheesy and use the Iaijutsu Focus skill as part of your assassination (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Iaijutsu_Focus_Skill).

I have banned it in my games though.

[Soranar]

Here's a build I tried a while ago, it works pretty well.

Race: Human
Alignment: any
template:none

Alternate Class features

Arcane hunter: trade favored enemy level 1 for this, anything that casts arcane spells

Skilled city dweller: trade ride for tumble

Urban companion: trade animal companion for a familiar with 2/3 your hitpoints

STATs (32 pts)

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 10

1 Ranger Point Blank Shot, Rapid shot (you get more skillpoints if you start ranger)
2 Human paragon (add Iajutsu focus to your skills permanently
3 Ranger Quick Draw (TWF combat style)
4 Ranger
5 Ranger
6 Ranger Sword of the Arcane Order
7+ keep taking ranger

You get a limited amount of spells but most are pretty useful to make enemies flat-footed (grease and the like). Also hampers their movement and lets you plink them full of daggers. Getting TWF for free means you don't need more than 14 DEX (as you get the rest for free as long as you don't wear armor that's too heavy) and you're not completely useless if you're forced to melee.

Meeting Iajutsu focus' requirements with thrown weapons is pretty simple since you draw a weapon for every attack anyway, you just need tricks to make your opponent flatfooted (see skill trick section for those).

Take the hawk familiar since you don't have UMD, it makes for a great scout with a +14 to spot.

Iajutsu focus vs sneak attack

first, neither stacks with the other so don't bother making a build to do so

second, sneak attack is more likely to occur but crit immune creatures are not affected by it (unless you get a rogue's ACF special ability). Here Iajutsu focus comes out on top because it works against anything with full damage.

third, iajutsu focus requires a 1 level dip instead of a whole build, thus it's a really good investment for the little work you put into it

finally, iajutsu focus caps at 9d6 damage but you can reach that cap earlier (and fairly easily since magic items can help you make skill rolls through item familiars).

Skill tricks:

Hidden blade, requires 5 crossclass points but it's worth it. Hide a weapon on your person with the sleight of hand skill (you can take 20 since that doesn't need to be a rushed action) then draw it in combat to surprise an opponent and render it flat-footed.

acrobatic backstab: fairly straightforward, make a tumble check to make an opponent flat-footed

[Red_Dog]

=>Piggy Knowles
I double check Incarnum, ToB & CWar.

Yes you are right about blink shirt. Its not AS awsome as I though.

However, the sword-sage teleport loop + sun school does in fact work because sun school's trigger is "instantaneous move". Dimension door is just an "example".

By the by, Adrent can do the same loop as far as I am aware. Perhaps his standard action teleport will bar further activity which is why it can be used for w/e, but he has extremely early access to swift teleportaion[definitely doesn't interfere] and his move action teleport shouldn't interfere either as far as I am aware.

=>Soranar


Iajutsu focus vs sneak attack

first, neither stacks with the other so don't bother making a build to do so


From the http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Iaijutsu_Focus_Skill
This bonus damage stacks with sneak attack, sudden strike, et cetera.

I am pretty sure one CAN do that.

Also by the by, a fun build in stacking d6s is Swift Ambusher that took skill Knowledge [Iaijutsu Focus] and Exotic Weapon Gnomish Quick Razor. All you need is perhaps blurr to grant yourself concealment and render opponents flatfooted.
The build stacks full skirmish progression, full sneak attack progression and moderate Iaijutsu Focus on every strike when using belt of battle or a swift action teleportaion [perhaps the old Kalashtar w/ Dimension Hop?]

So yeah, rolling lots of d6s per turn. Even one attack with 5d6+2d6[Improved Skirmish]+9d6Sneack+~5d6Iaijutsu Focus=21d6 by conservative estimates. ^^

[Soranar]

=>Piggy Knowles
I double check Incarnum, ToB & CWar.

Yes you are right about blink shirt. Its not AS awsome as I though.

However, the sword-sage teleport loop + sun school does in fact work because sun school's trigger is "instantaneous move". Dimension door is just an "example".

By the by, Adrent can do the same loop as far as I am aware. Perhaps his standard action teleport will bar further activity which is why it can be used for w/e, but he has extremely early access to swift teleportaion[definitely doesn't interfere] and his move action teleport shouldn't interfere either as far as I am aware.

=>Soranar




I am pretty sure one CAN do that.

Also by the by, a fun build in stacking d6s is Swift Ambusher that took skill Knowledge [Iaijutsu Focus] and Exotic Weapon Gnomish Quick Razor. All you need is perhaps blurr to grant yourself concealment and render opponents flatfooted.
The build stacks full skirmish progression, full sneak attack progression and moderate Iaijutsu Focus on every strike when using belt of battle or a swift action teleportaion [perhaps the old Kalashtar w/ Dimension Hop?]

So yeah, rolling lots of d6s per turn. Even one attack with 5d6+2d6[Improved Skirmish]+9d6Sneack+~5d6Iaijutsu Focus=21d6 by conservative estimates. ^^

oups, my source was wrong (old build used that combo but I was told it didn't work

[Slipperychicken]

Factotums (Factoti?) can be cool assassins. Iaijutsu Focus basically replaces SA, and you can be a really good skillmonkey as well. SLAs can be saved for non-flashy things like Wraithstrike, Invisibility, poison-creation, and the teleportation you mentioned wanting. UMD a Wand of Silence if you're worried about someone beating the insane Move Silently check to find you. Levels in Swordsage can be used for acquiring Shadow Jaunt, and a number of Flat-Footed-inducing maneuvers. I also like the Cunning Surge "mini-nova", where, if your opponent isn't dead yet, you can slam out 5 more attacks out of nowhere.

One level in Immediate Magic Variant Conjurer Wizard gets you Abrupt Jaunt Int/day (immediate action teleportation to, among other things, dodge attacks).

For more teleporting madness, a Shadow Cloak gets you the same thing 3/day, and +1 AC for just 5,500gp and a shoulder slot.

Factotums can add Intelligence to damage rolls. That includes ability damage from poisons. They're so smart, their poisons do more damage.