How EXACTLY does the 'Initiate of Milil' feat operate?

[the Blue Morpho]

Initiate of Milil reads "Your bard, cleric, and paladin levels stack for the purpose of determining which kinds of bardic music you can use (but not any other effect related to bardic music)"

Does this simply mean the feat does not make the classes stack for the purposes of Bardic Music uses per day?

[Jeraa]

Initiate of Milil reads "Your bard, cleric, and paladin levels stack for the purpose of determining which kinds of bardic music you can use (but not any other effect related to bardic music)"

Does this simply mean the feat does not make the classes stack for the purposes of Bardic Music uses per day?

You add all of your bard, cleric, and paladin levels together to determine what bardic performance abilities you have. But you still use only your bard levels to determine how many times per day you can use those performances.

[Shadowleaf]

A Bard 1/Cleric 17 with this feat would be able to use Mass Suggestion, but he has only one Bardic Music per day.

[Chronos]

It also wouldn't help for increasing the bonus granted by Inspire Courage.

[the Blue Morpho]

It also wouldn't help for increasing the bonus granted by Inspire Courage.

That's what I was afraid of. Thanks everyone for the replies!

[Coidzor]

It also wouldn't help for increasing the bonus granted by Inspire Courage.

That one's the main part that's not actually clear is the thing. It's more "Ask your DM."

And one of the main reasons why the OP's question is a good one.

[the Blue Morpho]

That one's the main part that's not actually clear is the thing. It's more "Ask your DM."

And one of the main reasons why the OP's question is a good one.

Looking at it RAW, I thought I might have to ask the DM.

It doesnt sound overpowered if a Bard1/Cleric19 can perform any bardic music, even if it's inspire courage +4, only once perday.

However, looking at it from the perspective of someone rolling a Bard1/Paladin19 with Initiate of Milil coupled alongside Devoted Performer, you nearly have a gestalt character for the price of two feats.

[Coidzor]

However, looking at it from the perspective of someone rolling a Bard1/Paladin19 with Initiate of Milil coupled alongside Devoted Performer, you nearly have a gestalt character for the price of two feats.

Honestly, if they've got more than 5 levels of Paladin they deserve a break. :smalltongue:

[Soranar]

Actually if you want to go paladin with inspire courage, you're just looking at the wrong feat.

the feat : From smite to song

transforms your smite evil attempts into an inspire courage = in strength to one from a bard of equal level to your paladin level

basically, that feat alone makes a paladin a tier 3 character (unless you have no smites for some reason)

another option is

bard 1/crusader or warblade x with a similar class stacking feat (forget the name of it)

[Draz74]

However, looking at it from the perspective of someone rolling a Bard1/Paladin19 with Initiate of Milil coupled alongside Devoted Performer, you nearly have a gestalt character for the price of two feats.

Minus 19 levels of decent spellcasting and 76 skill points. :smallyuk:

The Bard class is much more than just music abilities.

[Prime32]

Devoted Performer (CAdv) lets bard and paladin levels stack for bardic music uses.

[ignayshus]

A little late to the thread, but honestly it seems pretty straight-forward to me:

Your bard, cleric, and paladin levels stack for the purpose of determining which kinds of bardic music you can use (but not any other effect related to bardic music).

Bardic Music: meaning all supernatural music abilities (su).
Inspire Courage, Countersong, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics

Other Effect Related to Bardic Music: meaning all spell-like abilities (sp) keyed off or activated by music uses.
Fascinate, Suggestion, Song of Freedom, Mass Suggestion

The wording of Song of Freedom would imply it's a song, but then it was specifically categorized as a a spell-like ability.

I'm not sure any other definition makes sense considering access to Initiate of Milil requires a paladin be a Harmonious Knight. This would also imply that you treat those abilities as they're written in the PHB, but combine your total bard and paladin levels to determine the degree of the effect.

Which yes would mean that Devoted performer gives you access to a bard's Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness without bard levels, but it's not like you're getting the bard's spells/spell list, skill points, or their most powerful trick: Suggestion.

Consider what a Paladin has to trade to gain those class features:
1. Class features - Detect Evil and Remove Disease
2. Feats - One fourth of their total feats, this also doesn't cover additional feats for DFI specialization.
3. Skills - Unless they just want IC, they need skill points for Perform to utilize their new features (which is a pretty big deal for a class with 2+ skills and no other Int synnergy)
4. Levels - Even if all they want is IC progression, the only practical prc considering skill entry requirements is maybe Mythic Examplar which continues IC only, but still is 3/4 bab.

It's a big investment to become what is essentially a plate DFI bot.

[Tokuhara]

My preferred build:

Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar

Bard 5/Harmonious Holy Knight 5/Sublime Chord 1/Vituroso 9

Feats you definitely need: Initiate of Milil, Devoted Preformer, Snowflake Wardance, Song of the Heart, Smite to Song, Dragon Fire Inspiration

This lets you have close range (Snowflake Wardance), Medium Range Control (DFI), and Long Range (9th level spells), as well as lots of useful feats and a Mount, which increases mobility, letting you zip around the battlefield.

Now I don't know if this actually works, but with some DM ok for Rule of Cool, grab Ranged Smite and DFI Smite.

[the Blue Morpho]

Actually if you want to go paladin with inspire courage, you're just looking at the wrong feat.

the feat : From smite to song

transforms your smite evil attempts into an inspire courage = in strength to one from a bard of equal level to your paladin level

basically, that feat alone makes a paladin a tier 3 character (unless you have no smites for some reason)

another option is

bard 1/crusader or warblade x with a similar class stacking feat (forget the name of it)

That's a cool feat, especially for the long adventures that don't have an abundance of Evil things in the fights.
I wouldn't take it to negate taking bard levels though, the other music effects as well as the skills and buffing spells keep my interest.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, if going by RAI, the idea is that you stack your bard, cleric and paladin levels to determine the songs you get via Bardic Music (if you get the requisite Perform ranks). By RAW, though, you stack your bard, cleric and paladin levels to determine the songs you get via Bardic Music.

...sounds a bit weird, but its best explained in this way.

Assume that your levels in Bard affect Bardic Music in three ways:
Accessibility, which determines the songs you'll eventually have access to.
Uses of Bardic Music, which determine...well, how many times you can use Bardic Music per day
Power, which determines the power of some Bardic Music uses. Essentially, how much bonus does IC grant, how many people you can affect via Inspire Greatness, and so forth.

Each has its own "level" based on the level of Bard you possess.

A normal Bard 1 has Accessibility 1 (access to Inspire Courage, Fascination and Countersong), Uses 1 (can use it 1/day) and Power 1 (Inspire Courage grants only a base +1 bonus). A Bard 8 has Accessibility 8 (access to IC, Fascination, Countersong, Inspire Competence and Suggestion), Uses 6 (can use them 6/day) and Power 8 (Inspire Courage grants a base +2 bonus). A Bard 12 has Accessibility 12 (access to the above mentioned plus Inspire Greatness and Song of Freedom), Uses 12 (12 uses of BM per day) and Power 12 (can use Inspire Greatness on two people with the same use of BM).

What Initiate of Milil does is that it advances Accessibility, but leaves Uses and Power the same way. Thus, a Bard 8/Cleric or Paladin 4 has Accessibility 12, but Uses 8 and Power 8.

Up to this point, both RAW and RAI are effectively identical. Where it differs is in the following: while RAI assumes you need to have a level in a class that grants Bardic Music, RAW assumes not.

Thus, by RAI:

Cleric 6 with Initiate of Milil: Accessibility 0 (you don't have Bardic Music), Uses 0, Power 0.

However, by RAW:
Cleric 6 with Initiate of Milil: Accessibility 6 (IC, Countersong, Insp. Competence, Suggestion), Uses 0, Power 0.

This is important, as there is no clear definition on what constitutes Bardic Music. If what constitutes bardic music is the combination of Accessibility, Power AND Uses, then the RAW Cleric couldn't have access to, say, Extra Music (which would be the effective equivalent of Uses +3), or Sublime Chord. If what constitutes bardic music is Accessibility alone, then you can qualify for this feat or this PrC.

This becomes interesting once you realize you can effectively get Bardic Music for free just by getting this feat, even if you don't get anything else from it. Sublime Chord grants Uses of Bardic Music, but no Accessibility or Power; it is assumed you have Accessibility in order to enter. By RAI, since you have Accessibility 0, you can't get into Sublime Chord; by RAI, since you have Accessibility = combination of levels, a pure Cleric or Paladin could enter, get 1 use of Bardic Music via Sublime Chord and new uses of Bardic Music, effectively granting 2/3rds of BM plus advanced spellcasting.

In any case, for a Sublime Chord with Paladin levels, it's usually best to take advantage of the Complete Champion option (it technically allows you to recover one of your feats), and go the following:

Bard 1/Paladin 5/Knight of the Weave 4/Ruathar 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Ruathar +1, which nets you BAB 16 and 9/10ths SC spellcasting.

However, by RAW, you could ignore the Paladin levels and, with judicious use of Harmonious Knight, you could get:

Paladin 5/Knight of the Weave 4/Ruathar 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Ruathar +2, which nets you BAB +18 and full SC spellcasting.

Both are pretty decent gishes if you think about them, with Knight of the Weave offering some rare combination of arcane and divine spells. Knight of the Weave can be replaced by Suel Arcanamach, however, which grants near-full Sorc/Wizard spellcasting plus Dispelling Strike which is nice, but it busts your entire feat list just to qualify.