Can a Schism'd Mind Manifest While You're Asleep?

[Rubik]

As per the thread title.

I think this might be a case of "if the rules don't say you can't...", but if you can get your duration up high enough (or if you're knocked out quickly), I imagine your Schism'd mind could continue to function, though I doubt it could affect anything outside of your own body and mind.

And what about Lucid Dreaming? The duration hasn't run out (for the purposes of this thread), so would it be available for use when you're asleep without remanifesting it?

[JackMage666]

As for Schism, I think it would probably depend on how you went to sleep.

If it were from a spell, the spell was most likely a Compulsion effect, and thus you have to roll the saves as per the entry.

I would say yes, you can use Schism to manifest powers asleep, however, it'll be a bit difficult as you can't see, hear, or touch. So you'd be pretty limitted as to what you can actually do.

[Rubik]

As for Schism, I think it would probably depend on how you went to sleep.

If it were from a spell, the spell was most likely a Compulsion effect, and thus you have to roll the saves as per the entry.

I would say yes, you can use Schism to manifest powers asleep, however, it'll be a bit difficult as you can't see, hear, or touch. So you'd be pretty limitted as to what you can actually do.Most of what I want it for would be for Temporal Reiteration while unconscious, so targeting isn't an issue.

And as for targeting, there's always Touchsight.

[Jasdoif]

RAW, no.
Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.Emphasis mine.

You can't take your normal actions while asleep, so a strict reading would mean you gain no benefit from the schism during such rounds.

Further....

Most of what I want it for would be for Temporal Reiteration while unconscious, so targeting isn't an issue.Your schismed mind is only allowed to take a single standard action. Temporal Reiteration requires a swift action, and I'm not aware of any "take a swift action instead" option for a standard action, so RAW your "second mind" couldn't manifest it.


That said, it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow a schismed mind to manifest a swift action instead of a standard action, or for it to continue to function while you're asleep.

[Rejusu]

Jasdoif - That doesn't actually imply that you must take your normal actions in order for the schismed mind to take action. All it states is that it's free to act in the same round you take your normal actions:


is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

There's no requirement on being able to take your normal actions though. But you're right that as RAW there's no way to substitute a standard action for a swift action. I have no idea why though considering a swift action is supposed to take less time than a standard action to complete.

[ahenobarbi]

Rejusu:
Actually "is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions." means that:

- If you took a standard action the second mind can take it's action.
- If you did not take a standard action it is unspecified if it can take action.

[Acanous]

Full Round>Standard>Move>Free>Swift

You get one standard, one move, and one swift in a round. Any time you could take a standard action, you CAN substitute it for a lesser action.

It's in the Rules Compendium, I'm pretty sure it's also mentioned in whatever book Swift actions were introduced in.

[Rejusu]

Rejusu:
Actually "is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions." means that:

- If you took a standard action the second mind can take it's action.
- If you did not take a standard action it is unspecified if it can take action.

Which is basically what I just said...


Full Round>Standard>Move>Free>Swift

You get one standard, one move, and one swift in a round. Any time you could take a standard action, you CAN substitute it for a lesser action.

It's in the Rules Compendium, I'm pretty sure it's also mentioned in whatever book Swift actions were introduced in.

I just checked and either I missed that part or it's not there. The only thing about substituting actions is:
"You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."

There's also:
"You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn."

Which would seem to imply you can't sub an action for a swift action. 4th edition made substituting an action for a lesser action RAW, but I don't think it's ever been RAW in 3.5.

[Curmudgeon]

Full Round>Standard>Move>Free>Swift

You get one standard, one move, and one swift in a round. Any time you could take a standard action, you CAN substitute it for a lesser action.

It's in the Rules Compendium, I'm pretty sure it's also mentioned in whatever book Swift actions were introduced in.
No, I'm afraid your memory is playing tricks on you. That's not in Rules Compendium, nor is there such a rule in the early introductions of swift actions (first Miniatures Handbook, then Complete Arcane).

There is only one substitution available in the RAW. In a round you can take a full-round action (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_fullroundaction&alpha=F) or a standard action (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_standardaction&alpha=S) and a move action (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_moveaction&alpha=M). However, you cannot ever substitute a full-round action for a standard action. You have a choice in a round which actions you can use, but never a substitution (either way) once you're committed to one choice. You can take a move action in place of a standard action, and that's really the only action substitution allowed. Free actions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_freeaction&alpha=F) can be performed in conjunction with other actions, but they're limited by DM judgment and also can't be substituted for any other action.

There is no option to substitute any other action for a swift action. The rules limit you to one swift action per round, and (absent special class abilities) that's it.

[Elfinor]

There is an imperfect RAW method of using a swift action as a standard action. Readying an action is a standard action and you can ready a standard, move, swift or free action. It's in the Rules Compendium (for reals, p.110 :smalltongue:).

Allowing a swift action in the standard action 'slot' (without needing to ready an action) seems pretty reasonable to me, as a DM, though.

[ahenobarbi]

Which is basically what I just said...

Hmm right, sorry about that (I somehow managed to misunderstand you).

[Jasdoif]

Jasdoif - That doesn't actually imply that you must take your normal actions in order for the schismed mind to take action. All it states is that it's free to act in the same round you take your normal actions:


but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions

There's no requirement on being able to take your normal actions though.That is the only line describing schism getting a standard action, and it's restricted to "in the same round you take your normal actions". As such, that particular benefit doesn't apply unless you take your normal actions. I'll happily attribute that to poor wording, but it's still RAW since it's written that way.


But you're right that as RAW there's no way to substitute a standard action for a swift action. I have no idea why though considering a swift action is supposed to take less time than a standard action to complete.I think I can posit an explanation for that....I'm fairly certain the initial introduction of swift actions was to streamline the "free action, but only one per round" aspect of quickened spells, so methods of gaining additional swift actions (such as substituting other actions) were discouraged. Otherwise, one could have two quickened spells per round by substituting a standard action for a swift action (or three if by substituting move actions), which would be entail more significant game/rule changes than the prolific "swift and immediate action" sidebars in supplements.



There is an imperfect RAW method of using a swift action as a standard action. Readying an action is a standard action and you can ready a standard, move, swift or free action. It's in the Rules Compendium (for reals, p.110 :smalltongue:).Now that's one I hadn't seen before....That should be workable here, with an always-true condition to trigger the readied swift action. Since the schismed mind doesn't normally get a swift action I don't think one would run into the general "one swift action per round" rule.

[Curmudgeon]

There is an imperfect RAW method of using a swift action as a standard action. Readying an action is a standard action and you can ready a standard, move, swift or free action. It's in the Rules Compendium (for reals, p.110 :smalltongue:).
This doesn't change the limit of one swift action per turn. You can ready a swift action, but only if you haven't already used one (or an immediate action after your last turn); see RC on page 7.

[Rejusu]

That is the only line describing schism getting a standard action, and it's restricted to "in the same round you take your normal actions". As such, that particular benefit doesn't apply unless you take your normal actions. I'll happily attribute that to poor wording, but it's still RAW since it's written that way.

It's poorly worded yes, but I still don't think that qualifies as a restriction under RAW. It simply states that it is FREE to act in the same round you take your normal actions. No where in it's wording does it state you must take your normal actions in the same round you take your schism actions, only that you CAN take them within the same round. Under RAW nothing about it would suggest that you must take your normal standard action to qualify for a schism standard action.

[ahenobarbi]

That is the only line describing schism getting a standard action, and it's restricted to "in the same round you take your normal actions". As such, that particular benefit doesn't apply unless you take your normal actions. I'll happily attribute that to poor wording, but it's still RAW since it's written that way.

Nope. It says that 2nd mind gets action when you make a standard action. It does not say what happens if you don't take a standard action (see meaning of 'if' (implication) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_symbols)).

[Jasdoif]

Nope. It says that 2nd mind gets action when you make a standard action. It does not say what happens if you don't take a standard action (see meaning of 'if' (implication) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_symbols)).It does not say what happens if you don't take your normal actions (including a standard action), true. And that is the only part in the entire power description that says your second mind gets an action. Therefore, RAW, your second mind does not get an action if you don't take your normal actions; because the power is not described to grant such a benefit in that situation.

Powers describe what they do. Once you're assuming that powers do something other than what they are described to do, you are no longer talking RAW.

[Elfinor]

This doesn't change the limit of one swift action per turn. You can ready a swift action, but only if you haven't already used one (or an immediate action after your last turn); see RC on page 7. The rest of his body isn't taking any action at all (sleep compulsion), so it might work for manifesting Temporal Reiteration. Minus the 'normal action' part, I suppose:smallsigh:

For non-sleep purposes, what if the readied action didn't take place in your turn? I can't find an exact definition for 'your turn', but presumably it's the portion of the round where you act. The Swift Action description specifically states 'your turn', so by having it take place on 'not your turn', via the Ready Action, you should be able to get around it.

[ahenobarbi]

It does not say what happens if you don't take your normal actions (including a standard action), true. And that is the only part in the entire power description that says your second mind gets an action. Therefore, RAW, your second mind does not get an action if you don't take your normal actions; because the power is not described to grant such a benefit in that situation.

Hmm I guess you're right.

[Rejusu]

It does not say what happens if you don't take your normal actions (including a standard action), true. And that is the only part in the entire power description that says your second mind gets an action. Therefore, RAW, your second mind does not get an action if you don't take your normal actions; because the power is not described to grant such a benefit in that situation.

Powers describe what they do. Once you're assuming that powers do something other than what they are described to do, you are no longer talking RAW.

But for the third time, the benefit is NOT predicated upon you actually taking your normal action. It's not about assuming that it's doing something other than it's described to do. It's about interpreting the description literally. Simply put the first part of the description is what's most important:


is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

This is the part actually describing the benefit you gain, the second part states the restrictions on the benefit, and the third and final part states how this interacts with existing ruling. Under RAW that final statement is not a qualifier for gaining the benefit described in the first statement. If we were to break it down into a more logical format:

Benefit: Free to take a standard action in each round.
Restriction: Action must be purely mental.
Special: Can be done in the same round as your normal actions.

Not too long ago someone was arguing that Improved Trip shouldn't trigger in certain situations because of a similar argument to yours. He argued that because of the inclusion of the final statement that meant you had to have used an attack to make the trip to qualify for it. Like with this though that's not the case. Let's look at the wording of Improved Trip:


If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Like with schism it's the FIRST part of the description that's the most important. To break it down as before:

Benefit: Get a melee attack against an opponent.
Restriction: Opponent must be successfully tripped in melee combat.
Special: If an attack was used for the trip you get the attack as if you hadn't used your attack.

The way it's worded may IMPLY you have to use an attack for the trip to gain the benefit. But that's not RAW, that's just a specific interpretation. As written that final statement does not place a restriction on gaining the benefit of Improved Trip, likewise the final part of Schism doesn't place a restriction on it either. You can interpret it to be the case, but it's not RAW.

As you said powers describe what they do, and in this case it describes that your second mind is free to take a standard action in each round with the restriction that action must be purely mental. Powers may also describe the situations they're used in, but unless it's worded as such there's no restriction on using them outside those situations.

[Jasdoif]

But for the third time, the benefit is NOT predicated upon you actually taking your normal action. It's not about assuming that it's doing something other than it's described to do. It's about interpreting the description literally. Simply put the first part of the description is what's most important:



This is the part actually describing the benefit you gain, the second part states the restrictions on the benefit, and the third and final part states how this interacts with existing ruling. Under RAW that final statement is not a qualifier for gaining the benefit described in the first statement. If we were to break it down into a more logical format:

Benefit: Free to take a standard action in each round.
Restriction: Action must be purely mental.
Special: Can be done in the same round as your normal actions.

Not too long ago someone was arguing that Improved Trip shouldn't trigger in certain situations because of a similar argument to yours. He argued that because of the inclusion of the final statement that meant you had to have used an attack to make the trip to qualify for it. Like with this though that's not the case. Let's look at the wording of Improved Trip:



Like with schism it's the FIRST part of the description that's the most important. To break it down as before:

Benefit: Get a melee attack against an opponent.
Restriction: Opponent must be successfully tripped in melee combat.
Special: If an attack was used for the trip you get the attack as if you hadn't used your attack.

The way it's worded may IMPLY you have to use an attack for the trip to gain the benefit. But that's not RAW, that's just a specific interpretation. As written that final statement does not place a restriction on gaining the benefit of Improved Trip, likewise the final part of Schism doesn't place a restriction on it either. You can interpret it to be the case, but it's not RAW.

As you said powers describe what they do, and in this case it describes that your second mind is free to take a standard action in each round with the restriction that action must be purely mental. Powers may also describe the situations they're used in, but unless it's worded as such there's no restriction on using them outside those situations....there's my disconnect, I had somehow repeatedly missed the "in each round" part in "is free to take one standard action in each round"; probably mentally fastforwarded to the very similar "in the same round" later on each time :smallredface: I stand corrected.


In the particular case of Improved Trip, the "as if" phrase itself suggests a fashion of resolution rather than a strict requirement. I believe the poorly-worded "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" is meant to represent "at the same attack bonus", which is the type of wording that would be used in later supplements. It's fascinating to see how the wording evolves between the core books and the supplements.

[Rejusu]

Well that I will testify to. Poor wording is rampant in WotC products. I think dissecting what's RAW and what's not RAW though is part of the fun of it. Still there's no excuse for some things. Like the mention of "Powers per day" in the practised manifester feat because the writer basically just did a copy and replace of the "Practised Spellcaster feat" and forgot that Psionics is different.

"Exceptions to the rules" or "a fashion of resolution" is probably the best way to describe those statements though. They can be confusing though because they're not always valid and they can be misinterpreted as restrictions on gaining the benefit. That's why it's really important to break everything down into what the benefit you gain is, what the restrictions are, and then where it provides exceptions to existing rulings or how to resolve it in certain situations.

[Rubik]

According to the SRD, you can perform a swift action any time you could perform free actions, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions) and one of the explicitly defined free actions is to stop concentrating on a spell or power, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) which a Schism can do. Thus, Schisms can take swift actions (1/round). And because immediate actions are swift actions taken outside of your turn, they can do that, too.

[Hazzardevil]

With using a standard action to ready a swift action, can't you just do:
If my turn ends then I manifest X.

[Curmudgeon]

With using a standard action to ready a swift action, can't you just do:
If my turn ends then I manifest X.
Readying an action is based on the character's senses. A "turn" is a player-detectable event, not a character-detectable event. What you can do is set the trigger to be any action by any other character. That won't trigger on undetectable actions (like an invisible silent enemy doing almost anything), but it'll work most of the time.

[Rejusu]

According to the SRD, you can perform a swift action any time you could perform free actions, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions) and one of the explicitly defined free actions is to stop concentrating on a spell or power, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) which a Schism can do. Thus, Schisms can take swift actions (1/round). And because immediate actions are swift actions taken outside of your turn, they can do that, too.

Yes it states you can take them whenever you take free actions, but you can ONLY take a swift action if you have one available to take in the first place. Just being able to perform a swift action doesn't grant you a swift action to take. The only action type schism gives you is a standard action, that's it. Which means you can only perform actions that take a standard action or a move action (as you can explicitly always take a move action in place of a standard action if you wish). Not to mention that it's irrelevant anyway because by RAW your schism'd mind can't even take free actions.


Readying an action is based on the character's senses. A "turn" is a player-detectable event, not a character-detectable event. What you can do is set the trigger to be any action by any other character. That won't trigger on undetectable actions (like an invisible silent enemy doing almost anything), but it'll work most of the time.

True, but couldn't you just ready an action to do something 6 seconds from now? A turn isn't character-detectable, but characters still have a sense of time.