Gestalt Gish Idea

[Darth_Versity]

So my DM (against my warnings) wants to run a gestalt game. So I thought that i'd try an Arcane Gish using a Wizard//Warblade build. Now coming up with a build is easy enough but I'm stuck on a PrC.

The obvious 3 are Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade and Jade Pheonix Mage. They all offer what a gish needs, but then I thought about the War Weaver. While not a normal gish PrC, with a gestalt build to provide the warrior side it offers amazing benefits for the Arcane Warrior and his allies.

So my question is simple. In a gestalt gish what PrC(s) would you choose?

[Aegis013]

I'd probably do Incantatrix (or maybe Spell Dancer? I've heard that's good but I haven't read it, so I might take the opportunity to look into it). Some easy persists seem too good to pass up for a gish. Plus, going straight Warblade gives you better results maneuver wise than PrC'ing often does, since you get to exchange old moves as you advance Warblade but not as you advance your PrC (like Jade Pheonix Mage). Unless you're using some of those PrC's on the Wizard side... but then you have to make absolutely certain not to lose any spell levels to ensure you have the most power available.

[Harry]

You should prob play something like a Wizard 5/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4 If your not going jade phoenix made there's no reason to use warblade plus taking one more level of warblade will make it so you can't cast 9 lvl spells until epic so wizard then warblade then jpm then champion hope this helps:smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warblade 20// Martial Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Incantatrix (or anything else) 4, use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist all of your buffs. Get Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness via Paragnostic Apostle, and either Spontaneous Divination or a Domain Power at Wizard 5. Take the feat Kung Fu Genius found in Dragon magazine 319, p71, and wear a Monk's Belt to add your Int bonus to your AC.

I would also pick up Arcane Disciple later on for the Destiny domain, its 9th level spell is the best Persistent buff in the game. Use Persistent Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) to buff and crowd control while full attacking. Persistent Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) into a Cave Troll or War Troll, and pile on one of the Bite of the Werecreature line of spells, also Persistent. Just making Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Fly, Displacement, Ray Deflection, Thunderlance+GMW, Shield, Greater Mirror Image (PH2), Magic Circle against Evil, Greater/Superior Invisibility, etc. last all day via Persistent Spell makes Incantatrix too good to pass up. Between Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, War Troll form, Bite of the Werecreature, Monk/Int bonus, Dex 18+ buffed, and whatever Ring of Protection you get (or convert natural to deflection via Scintillating Scales), nothing should be able to hit you, plus there's Displacement and Greater Mirror Image and Greater/Superior Invisibility.

Your Strength score will be 31 from War Troll, +8 for Draconic Polymorph, and +16 for Bite of the Werebear, for a total of 55. That's +22 to hit, and +33 damage two-handed. Charge in with Power Attack and Leap Attack, preferaly using a Valorous (UE) weapon, and don't forget Persistent Wraithstrike. Then cast Whirling Blade (Quickened, or with a Circlet of Rapid Casting, or just Persistent Arcane Spellsurged) and hit the entire encounter with your same attack and damage bonuses from charging. Everything gets hit with Dazing Blow from War Troll (DC 30+), if it even survives.

[The-Mage-King]

Harry, I don't think you know what Gestalt is.

Also, Warblade is perfectly fine on a gish build, even without it being JPM- you get the ability to sub Concentration for Will, maybe Fort as well, as an immediate action. That's GOOD.



As for the build, why not go something like...


Wizard 5/War Weaver 1/Geometer 2/War Weaver 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Loremaster 3//Warblade 20. You net a number of decent abilities, 19th level wizard casting, and other fun stuff.

[Darth Stabber]

I would consider making some room in the build for duskblade. Arcane channeling is all sorts of awesome if you have a full caster progression (I am a huge fan of archivist//duskblade in particular). It's a big investment that will put you off of 9th level maneuvers, but when you have 9th level spells that's not as big a loss as it would seem. JPM is not legal for the same reason mystic theurge is not. If you pick up duskblade then incantrix becomes really great, otherwise I would recommend abjurant champion, IOTSFV, and maybe war weaver (i like the class but I am not as bullish on it as some other in this space).

[Darth_Versity]

I'd probably do Incantatrix (or maybe Spell Dancer? I've heard that's good but I haven't read it, so I might take the opportunity to look into it). Some easy persists seem too good to pass up for a gish.


Warblade 20// Martial Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Incantatrix (or anything else) 4, use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist all of your buffs.

This is one thing i've never understood. You can use Incantatrix to add metamagic effects to someone elses buffs for free, but not your own. For this persistant buffing would require the use of another wizard, which is then not me buffing it someone else. Why do people think you can buff yourself with Incantatrix?


I would consider making some room in the build for duskblade. Arcane channeling is all sorts of awesome if you have a full caster progression (I am a huge fan of archivist//duskblade in particular). It's a big investment that will put you off of 9th level maneuvers, but when you have 9th level spells that's not as big a loss as it would seem. JPM is not legal for the same reason mystic theurge is not. If you pick up duskblade then incantrix becomes really great, otherwise I would recommend abjurant champion, IOTSFV, and maybe war weaver (i like the class but I am not as bullish on it as some other in this space).

I wouldn't consider a dip into Duskblade a good choice with maneuvers. Both require a Standard Action, so you need to lose 3 levels in either wizard or Warblade for the ability to do something that stops you using a manuever. Doesn't seem like a good trade.

IOTSV is a great idea though, I hadn't thought of that. It would offer serious defensive capabilities in melee. Just a shame the prerequisites are so high.


My plan with this character is to go in as a buffed up hulking melee beat stick and use maneuvers to smash things apart. Not really bothered by the usual casting things. Although using a focused specialist abjurer with abjurant champion would let me unleash a dispel magic every round that I have a swift action. That might be worth considering.

Maybe something like Wizard 5, Abjurant Champion 5, JPM 10//Warblade 20. It would get a massive number of manuevers (including devoted spirit, and excellent casting (AFB, cant remember what JPM loses) and CL 20 thanks to Abjurant champion. Along with Arcane Strike to up my attack and damage the enemies will be dropping like flies. And in the event that a sword just cant do the job, I am still a full caster.

[Jeff the Green]

JPM is not legal for the same reason mystic theurge is not.

Strictly speaking, it's not illegal by RAW. The wording is "should be prohibited," not "is prohibited." And besides, that entire bullet point about prestige classes is usually ignored by DMs anyway (YMMV, tho).

[Darth Stabber]

Strictly speaking, it's not illegal by RAW. The wording is "should be prohibited," not "is prohibited." And besides, that entire bullet point about prestige classes is usually ignored by DMs anyway (YMMV, tho).

Okay, I will give you the "should be prohibited" point, but I have never seen a GM allow a player to take a class and a PRC that increases that classes abilities at the same time..

Gestalt Theurging Types
1) Wiz3/archivist3/mystic theurge7//factotum13 would be okay.
2) Wiz3/mystic theurge10//archivist3/factotum10 would be a bit much, but I would consider allowing it, on a case by case.
3) Wiz13//archivist3/mystic theurge10 is insane, as you would have lvl23 wizard casting at lvl13.

JPM and warblade are both incrementing warblade, making this a clear case of type 3. The wiz5/abjurant champion5/jpm10//warblade20 build would be a 30th lvl initiator at lvl 20.

[Darth_Versity]

JPM and warblade are both incrementing warblade, making this a clear case of type 3. The wiz5/abjurant champion5/jpm10//warblade20 build would be a 30th lvl initiator at lvl 20.

in that case I'd say the IL is 20 but the number of maneuvers stack.

[dspeyer]

1) Wiz3/archivist3/mystic theurge7//factotum13 would be okay.
2) Wiz3/mystic theurge10//archivist3/factotum10 would be a bit much, but I would consider allowing it, on a case by case.
3) Wiz13//archivist3/mystic theurge10 is insane, as you would have lvl23 wizard casting at lvl13.

1) is sometimes, but not often allowed.
2) is pure cheese. You're not paying *anything* for that mystic theurge.
3) doesn't work. You get the better of the two sides, not their sum.

Back to the OP, you don't actually *need* PrCs, but War Weaver's a good one. It's easy to get into and you're going to be full of buffing spells anyway. Toss of a quickened SM4 for 1d4+1 Lemures, then drop Bite of the Werebear on all of them and lead them in a War Master's Charge.

[Suddo]

Okay, I will give you the "should be prohibited" point, but I have never seen a GM allow a player to take a class and a PRC that increases that classes abilities at the same time..

Gestalt Theurging Types
1) Wiz3/archivist3/mystic theurge7//factotum13 would be okay.
2) Wiz3/mystic theurge10//archivist3/factotum10 would be a bit much, but I would consider allowing it, on a case by case.
3) Wiz13//archivist3/mystic theurge10 is insane, as you would have lvl23 wizard casting at lvl13.

JPM and warblade are both incrementing warblade, making this a clear case of type 3. The wiz5/abjurant champion5/jpm10//warblade20 build would be a 30th lvl initiator at lvl 20.

I'd personally allow number 2 because guess what, we are playing Gestalt why are we caring about power balance. Though Number 3 doesn't work for the same reason Warblade 20 // Fighter 20 doesn't give you 40 BAB. I just rule Caster Level (amount of spells caster level not just CL), Initiator Level, Manifestor Level and all the others would be like BAB, although I still think Sneak Attack stacks.

[Rubik]

You can jump into war weaver after level 3, if you do early-entry stuff. What about changeling double-focused specialist 3/war weaver 5/initiate of the sevenfold veil 7/shadowcraft mage 5 // factotum 11/chameleon 2/warblade 7?

[unundindur]

Be an elf. Then you can go Warblade9/Barbarian1/Eternal Blade10 on the "warrior-side", and you can take the Otherworldly feat from Players Guide to Faerun that makes you an outsider for great shapechangewin.

Exchange fast movement for Pounce through the barb level.

The Wizardside have already been taken care of by the above posters :smallcool:

[Hirax]

This is one thing i've never understood. You can use Incantatrix to add metamagic effects to someone elses buffs for free, but not your own. For this persistant buffing would require the use of another wizard, which is then not me buffing it someone else. Why do people think you can buff yourself with Incantatrix?



You're confusing two different incantatrix abilities. Cooperative metamagic, obtained at level 3, is what allows you to add metamagic to somebody else's buffs. Metamagic effect, the ability received at level 4, is what allows you apply them to your own.

edit: and I recommend swiftblade btw, they're a blast to play. Making use of spring attack is fun, plus most swiftblade abilities are EX, so you can wander around in an AMF if that's your thing. 1 level of mindbender for mindsight is always nice too, of course.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is one thing i've never understood. You can use Incantatrix to add metamagic effects to someone elses buffs for free, but not your own. For this persistant buffing would require the use of another wizard, which is then not me buffing it someone else. Why do people think you can buff yourself with Incantatrix?

You get Metamagic Effect at Incantatrix 3, the ability to add any metamagic feat you have to any valid ongoing spell, regardless of who cast it. You can definitely use it on your own spells, there's absolutely no room for anyone to say otherwise.

Cooperative Metamagic, gained at Incantatrix 2, is probably what you were talking about. It requires you to spend a standard action to activate it, which typically excludes it from applying to your own spells. However, action types do not exist outside of combat, so what action type it requires to activate is completely irrelevant unless you're acting in order of initiative. If you're not in combat, you can take a little longer to both cast the spell and use Cooperative Metamagic on it, because your actions are not limited by combat's turn-based system.

[Tvtyrant]

A Swiftblade build on one side can work really well if you use Shapechange to get a Choker's Quickness. Three standard actions a turn with a Warblade means you can cast a buff+cast a quickened True Strike or Wraithstrike+hit with two strikes on a turn.

[Hirax]

A Swiftblade build on one side can work really well if you use Shapechange to get a Choker's Quickness. Three standard actions a turn with a Warblade means you can cast a buff+cast a quickened True Strike or Wraithstrike+hit with two strikes on a turn.

If shapechange is in play, chronotyryns from Fiend Folio are a better candidate for additional actions. They take actions as if they're 2 creatures, so a generous reading of its ability would allow you 2 full round actions and 2 standard actions per turn if you have 9 levels of swiftblade.

[Tvtyrant]

If shapechange is in play, chronotyryns from Fiend Folio are a better candidate for additional actions. They take actions as if they're 2 creatures, so a generous reading of its ability would allow you 2 full round actions and 2 standard actions per turn if you have 9 levels of swiftblade.

Sure, but Fiend Folio is 3.0 I believe, and some DMs disallow 3.0

[hex0]

No one mentioned the spellwarp sniper and enlightened fist combo so you can channel almost any spell into your full channel?

[Soranar]

Due to the bonus feats, a straight wizard 20/Warblade 20 is more than viable.

But if you really want to go gish, INT just isn't the best stat

A CHA gish would be a lot more powerful, especially an evil one

say something like

hexblade 4/Paladin of tyranny 4/Blackguard 2/ Swiftblade 10 // Mailman build (sorcerer Incantatrix combo)

why swiftblade? Because getting a timestop like ability on top of timestop is just awesome. Abjurant Champion is fun but mostly overkill at this point while Swiftblade gives you abilities you'll actually use

[Darth Stabber]

But if you really want to go gish, INT just isn't the best stat
So very wrong, warblade is better than any charisma focused meleer (as is duskblade), and int is the second best casting stat (first being a theoretical con caster). Unless you focus on it charisma sucks, a lot. INT has tangible benefits, so does wisdom, but charisma is the default dump stat for a reason. Psion, Wizard, and Archivist all laugh at charisma based spont casters who share spell lists with them, you should too.


hexblade 4/Paladin of tyranny 4/Blackguard 2/ Swiftblade 10 // Mailman build (sorcerer Incantatrix combo)


This combo is just mailman sorc with a more resilient chassis and some swift blade abuse. Honestly Duskblade 6/???14//wizardX/wizardprcY yould still be a better gish, because all those nasty spells can be channeled right upside the head. Or if you want to mailman people old fashioned way: wizard based mailman//factotum. Factotum is good action economy abuse, and if you work swiftblade in you have both of them making space time your b****.