A tactical Sploosh!

[Hallavast]

Let's discuss the tactical merits of a suprise round Sploosh! Yay!
Nale is nominally the leader here, but we all know Tarquin is really in control. That and Tarquin's noted flare for the dramatic tells me that it was probably his idea to kickoff with Empowered Vitriolic Sphere.

For those of you who don't play dnd, Vitriolic sphere is a 5th level area of effect damage spell with a low but consistent average damage that inflicts damage over time for 2 more rounds. And it's empowered, meaning the damage is increased x1.5. But tactically, does this make sense?

The Cons - Experienced gamers from many games will note that this choice of spell obviously doesn't adhere to the tactical principles of crowd control or focus fire. The spell neither limits the opponent's offensive/defensive capabilities nor seeks to eliminate weak targets quickly. Further, it uses up a 7th level slot (we assume Z doesn't have many of those to throw around).

However:

The Pros - Aside from the above, the spell does have 3 things going for it:
1) Range. the spell can be cast from over 900ft (~300m) away. Not many spells or weapons have that kind of range. So team Linear Guild + (LG+) can drop them with little fear of reciprocation from the Oots.
2) Acid damage. Acid is one of the 5 elemental energy attacks in D&D. It is uncommon but not unwise to spend resources on acid resistance, because it isn't as common as fire (or electricity arguably).
3) Damage over time. Damage over time spells can potentially interrupt spellcasting, and they are most effective when cast sooner in a fight rather than later.

So, if you were in Tarquin's shoes (or Nale's if you prefer) would you start off with Vitriolic sphere? Or would you go for something else from your party's known repertoire? And, to be a bit more crass, how does this reflect on Tarquin's (or Nale's if you prefer) vaunted prowess as a tactician?

[LuPuWei]

One more thing to consider is what Tarquin is actually trying to do. He seems to mean business but he might not actually want a TPK for the OotS.

The question is, does Nale's plan trump his stated master-plan? Or is he now thinking of effecting something else altogether?

[Bastian Weaver]

I think it's a good way of "letting them know that we're here". Tarquin is genre-savvy!

[Winter]

I'm more thinking: Isn't this attack somewhat premature? Tarquin has no idea if what he seeks is there, he has no idea what the order might have found, he is not sure what the acid will corrode on things the order has found (e.g. paper, wallcarvings, whatever).

He's using the spell on a high level party, so basically giving them a "heads up" as he still has to reach the area (the order could flee downstairs and hide and teleport out and whatever until he reaches the place).

I think the real question is "What does Tarquin plan to accomplish here?"

[rbetieh]

3) Damage over time. Damage over time spells can potentially interrupt spellcasting, and they are most effective when cast sooner in a fight rather than later.



This and pretty much only this. Z prepared his spells this morning thinking only of ways to cheese off V, like always. This is just their best option of removing the Orders second most effective character (in OOTS, the guy who actually succeeds the most times when he tries is Durkon). They don't know who is in there but its usually safe to assume that the Wizard will be standing close to the biggest strongest bodyguard.

[Murray]

Attacking from long range seems to be doing a decent job of creating panic in the OotS. It won't last for long, but the Order is going to be distracted by taking cover and being burned by acid, when they could be working out an ambush or counter-attack. Taking the initiative and trying to keep your opponent off balance seems a bit like Tarquin's style.

The OotS may not even know who's attacking them yet, and by keeping their heads down, they will have even less time to get over the shock of seeing the Linear Guild backed by the Empire of Blood's head honchos.

On the other hand, Nale's style is prone to excessive sloppiness, so an empowered high-level spell with modest damage could be knee-jerk reaction to being spotted, or just Nale's interest in inflicting damage as early as possible.

I do however like the idea that Zz'dtri chose the spell simply to make Vaarsuvius angry. :smallbiggrin:

[Hazzardevil]

I think it is just done in an attempt to stall for time for Tarquin, Nale and the kobold to get into position.
Tarquin most likely has no weapon capable of being effective from a range, the kobold does nothing but maths and Nale is ineffective when not talking or dueling.

[Demonicbunny]

Honestly I can't think of a better spell.

1. They're definitely at long range, pretty much no disabling spells have long range.
2. They don't see anyone but Roy. Since Roy is a close range fighter and they're flying he's pretty much irrelevant.

As such an long range AoE spell aimed inside the temple is their best choice, preferably one with a disabling component and unusual damage component.
That's Vitrolic Sphere, as it has a fair chance of preventing retaliation from Durkon and V.
It probably won't touch Haley or Belkar, but against blindfire AoE spells reflex saves tend to be king.
The only better spell I can think of is Earthquake (if they can collapse the building), but that's a clerical spell and Malack is pretty much a reluctant participant.

The rest will have to wait until they close to medium range.

[zimmerwald1915]

The only better spell I can think of is Earthquake (if they can collapse the building), but that's a clerical spell and Malack is pretty much a reluctant participant.
1) We don't know if Malack can cast eighth-level spells.
2) More importantly, collapsing the building has a significant chance of damaging or destroying the Gate.

[Sethis]

I'd be very surprised if Malack couldn't cast 8th level spells. That's only level 15 for a Cleric, and I get the feeling him and Tarquin are better than the OOTS.

[vrellum]

I think there is a mistaken assumption. Empowered vitriolic sphere has a good change to kill V.
Assuming V is 15th level and has a con penalty, he doesn't have many hit points.
V hp = 3 +14*1.5= 24

Empowered vitriolic sphere does
(15*2.5) * 1.5 = 60 pts

I could be remembering it wrong, but I think everyone in the area of effect takes the initial damage. If so, V would probably be dead.

[psijac]

maybe it was casted to dissolve the Draketooth Clan remains

Clarify: By Richard from a narrative stand point

[zimmerwald1915]

I think there is a mistaken assumption. Empowered vitriolic sphere has a good change to kill V.
Assuming V is 15th level and has a con penalty, he doesn't have many hit points.
V hp = 3 +14*1.5= 24

Empowered vitriolic sphere does
(15*2.5) * 1.5 = 60 pts

I could be remembering it wrong, but I think everyone in the area of effect takes the initial damage. If so, V would probably be dead.
The minimum HP V would have needed to survive her last fight with Z and Yukyuk would be 28. A Lightning Bolt cast by a level 13 Wizard, and against which its target saved, would have dealt at least 5 damage. The two sneak attacks would have dealt at least 2 damage each (assuming Yukyuk has less than three Rogue levels). A Vitriolic Sphere against which V failed her save (she was covered in acid the round after it was cast) would have dealt at least 18 damage. Hence, if Z and Yukyuk rolled 1s on all their damage dice, V would have needed 28 HP to make it out of that fight on 1 HP.

She'd still probably die to an Empowered Vitriolic Sphere even with the four extra HP though. Good thing for her she's not in the area of effect, but separated from that area by a flight of stairs, a trap door, and a shaft of unknown depth.

[vrellum]

Actually, its got a decent chance to kill Haley and Elan too, unless they have a +2 con bonus.

I don't know how they would know all of the Draketooth folks are dead.

added Elan

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, its got a decent chance to kill Haley and Elan too, unless they have a +2 con bonus.

I don't know how they would know all of the Draketooth folks are dead.

added Elan
Haley and Belkar will be fine. They both have good Reflex saves and Evasion. Elan? He might be in trouble.

[vrellum]

Of course V couldn't have been killed by the spell, but there was no way for the bad guys to know that he was not on the rooftop. So, was this a good opening salvo? I think so. It could have easily killed the arcane caster and the bard, maybe even the rogue.

Unlike the flying Kobold knows who was (or wasn't) on the roof, his 8% number is way off.

Belkar probably has enough HP to survive regardless. Ranger plus barbarian levels plus probable con bonus.

[Ellye]

I guess it's also important to note that he ends the comic about to cast a second Empowered Vitriolic Sphere.

Do the damage over time component "stack"? If so, even Roy and Durkon might be in trouble. Elan most definitely is going to be severely hurt (very atypical for both Nale and Tarquin to risk a very real chance of killing Elan from a distance, though).

I won't be surprised if Belkar and Haley are the only ones left in condition to fight. This might end up being the final moment of heroism for Belkar, indeed (oh god please don't let this comment derail this thread).

[Winter]

Yes, if a single Orb has the chance of 8% to kill off at least one member of the order, a second hit will have a much higher chance to reduce someone to 0 or less HPs.
It's also probable that the second orb hits when the delayed damage of the first was fully dealt.

If the Order does not get out there very quickly they will have a massive problem at hand with the second spell striking (and that does not even count the enemy getting closer and firing off more ranged area spells).

[Demonicbunny]

It would probably have been better to follow up with an empowered or maximized fireball as the second punch.
Or a Ball Lightning.
Unless of course the acid damage stacks (for two reflex saves per turn).

But then he might not have those memorized.

[Winter]

I think this depends on what Tarquin wants to accomplish.

And the "damage over times can kill spells cast and occupies your opponents with other things while you approach" is a very convincing thing he might want to accomplish. My guess is he wants to weaken them (that could include having the wizard die to acid damage!) and then question them further. He probably is pretty sure Roy and Durkon at least will survive the attack.

[Hazzardevil]

Actually, its got a decent chance to kill Haley and Elan too, unless they have a +2 con bonus.

I don't know how they would know all of the Draketooth folks are dead.

added Elan

Tarquin probably expects Girard to be dead, he would notice the lack of defenses.
It also seems likely that he would have noticed V's Familicide and he might have pieced together that the Draketooths are descended from dragons, since if he is a bard, then bardic knowledge might tell him, or maybe someone might have good enough knowledge to know Girard is descended from dragons.

[Kondziu]

Tarquin probably expects Girard to be dead, he would notice the lack of defenses.Does Tarquin even know anything about Girard, except that he's probably related to Orrin and connected to those "gate" things? And how much could he know about gates themselves, while we're at it?


It also seems likely that he would have noticed V's Familicide and he might have pieced together that the Draketooths are descended from dragons, since if he is a bard, then bardic knowledge might tell him, or maybe someone might have good enough knowledge to know Girard is descended from dragons.I don't see how is it likely for Tarquin to "notice" Familicide to begin with, much less how could he know how it works and who was its target.

[Sploosh]

I might not be as tactical as you were hoping I would be. The range is indeed beneficial. What not to overlook is that Roy clearly saw their approach when he turned towards them. They may have been attempting to get closer before they initiated anything and instead used this as merely as a plan B.

Assuming they had the time for it go tick, the sphere does a better job of damaging a tough fighter like Roy than a fireball and it has the added benefit of being a more mysterious and exotic version, much like Z is to V.

[vrellum]

I think the real reason he used it is because it is a direct damage, spell that is not an evocation.

[Hazzardevil]

Does Tarquin even know anything about Girard, except that he's probably related to Orrin and connected to those "gate" things? And how much could he know about gates themselves, while we're at it?

He knows that Girard guards the gate, and if the gate is as important as Nale has mentioned, there should be a lot of protections.


I don't see how is it likely for Tarquin to "notice" Familicide to begin with, much less how could he know how it works and who was its target.
1/4 of all black dragons fall dead for no reason, it's something someone taht high up would notice. He might have a squadron of dragons in his army.
I hear BBEG's are fond of that sort of thing.
Empress from Remember,
Dragonlance Generals,
The list goes on and on.

[Fenice]

While we're at it, can someone explain why they are flying? Wasn't Vaarsuvius unable to fly because of the whole "Windy Windy Canyon"?

Does that mean that Malack had Control Winds prepared, unlike Durkon?

[Euodiachloris]

While we're at it, can someone explain why they are flying? Wasn't Vaarsuvius unable to fly because of the whole "Windy Windy Canyon"?

Does that mean that Malack had Control Winds prepared, unlike Durkon?

Well, they have an administrative bug on their team, right? What are the odds Kilkil actually has collected data on varoious places across the continent? I'd bet a handy file warned him about the gales in that area. And, the name helps, if you stop to think. :smallwink:

[allenw]

If Tarquin *does* know about Girard's ancestry, then the choice of acid as an attack mode is interesting, since Black Dragons use an acid breath weapon (and are immune to acid). Not that Girard is likely to have taken after his ancestor enough for it to matter tactically.

[JSSheridan]

From the LG's PoV, they don't know that the OotS has V or Yukyuk back. What are the odds that they could have actually recovered V from the demiplane of extremely painful torture, where Z though he had sent V. So Z is probably expecting to match up against Belkar, and I'd normally expect a wizard, and a transmuter at that, to steamroll a ranger.

[Euodiachloris]

From the LG's PoV, they don't know that the OotS has V or Yukyuk back. What are the odds that they could have actually recovered V from the demiplane of extremely painful torture, where Z though he had sent V. So Z is probably expecting to match up against Belkar, and I'd normally expect a wizard, and a transmuter at that, to steamroll a ranger.

Tarquin's too genre-savvy to expect V not to be there. Whatever Z thinks. :smallsmile:

[rewinn]

maybe it was casted to dissolve the Draketooth Clan remains...

... or maybe it was intended to dissolve the living Draketooth Clan. Tarquin at this point has no obvious reason to doubt that the Temple is full of mooks defending the Gate.

Now might be time for a genre-savvy Elan to ...try an illusion of an angry band of acid-resistent half-dragons, to draw fire from the Order's retreat to the dungeon for healing. What a pity V is out of action!

[Kalrany]

Tarquin at this point has no obvious reason to doubt that the Temple is full of mooks defending the Gate.

To a point.

The problem is we don't know what Tarquin knows: that is, if he would see this as a reasonable situation or if he might be aware that there are number of defenses down. It depends on how much information he has about the area, the ziggurat, etc. He may have had people check the area, but depending on what level they were and what they were looking for, there is no clear indicator as to the amount of knowledge the EoB has accumulated. Think about it this way -- the EoB is rather new in comparison to the Darktooth’s hideaway. From what I can tell, they should have been well hidden and propagating their paranoia for several decades before EoB began their own adventures. So it is possible that there Tarquin's knowledge may be slim to none. We have not been lead to believe anything one way or another.

Additionally, the Flying Accountant is another unknown factor. How much does he know and would he have considered it not only worthwhile but prudent to share. And would he have cared enough to gather the intell in the first place...

Although, future installments should give some additional insight into the new LG members knowledge...

[Forikroder]

Tarquin wasted his surprise round there are better plans and better strategy that could be used with the element of surprise, all he got was one good attack and now his perfect ambush situation is a frontal assault and the OoTS has time to prepare fortifications and come up with an effective strategy and heal any damage they took

the only thing the spell really did was give them a dramatic entrance

[Haldir]

I think the LG made an error here. Exposing themselves early only gives Roy more time to put his amazing tactical skills to work for him, and none of Nale's allies are in a position to do any real damage.

[JSSheridan]

Tarquin wasted his surprise round there are better plans and better strategy that could be used with the element of surprise, all he got was one good attack and now his perfect ambush situation is a frontal assault and the OoTS has time to prepare fortifications and come up with an effective strategy and heal any damage they took

the only thing the spell really did was give them a dramatic entrance
Nale is the one giving orders.

I think Tarquin's priorities are:

1. Take control of the Gate and bring in his army to secure it.

2. Fighting Greenhilt

3. Making sure Elan isn't killed by Nale, and

4. Bringing justice down on Nale when he doesn't need him anymore.

[Haldir]

I disagree with Sherridan's point number 4. I see Tarquin as desiring to bring Nale back into his fold, rather than destroying him. I can't see why he'd love Elan and desire Nale's death in a serious way. The threat of Malack is something that Tarquin can use to influence Nale, but Malack will most likely yield to Tarquin's demands on the matter, such as he did when Tarquin captured Nale at the Palace of Blood.

[martianmister]

Nale is the one giving orders.

I don't think so.

[Forikroder]

Nale is the one giving orders.

I think Tarquin's priorities are:

1. Take control of the Gate and bring in his army to secure it.

2. Fighting Greenhilt

3. Making sure Elan isn't killed by Nale, and

4. Bringing justice down on Nale when he doesn't need him anymore.

not the important part of my post, doesnt matter whos in charge (i dont think anyones in charge, Nales and his two men are working with Tarquin and his two men theres no cross group orders going out)

[St Fan]

Nale is the one giving orders.


I don't think so.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png "Of course! I wouldn't dream of usurping command. If anything, I look forward to seeing how you handle the operation" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

[t209]

Do you think Linear Guild (With Tarquin) is going in like Stormtroopers (WW1 versions)?
1. Z will use Vitrolic Sphere which will pin down the Order.
2. Linear Guild will go in and attack them while they are down.
Edit: Stormtrooper is an idea on using artillery to pinned down the enemy while bringing in german stormtroopers to finish off the trench.

[Mutant Sheep]

Considering that's basic artillery tactics when the enemy is in a building that isn't going to fall down soon, yes.:smallconfused: I think they will. They only have Z to be ranged, Malack wont throw asplosions everywhere if it might kill Durkon. He wants that to be a (I cant find the emote page that has all the faces on it right now, sorry.:smallredface:)
:Malack: "I cant explain this, sorry."
:durkon:"I am Lawful Good and do nothing bad, me dwarf, listen to my accent"
:Malack:"Yeah, I was desperate for someone to agree that killing Nale is a reasonable reaction to the murder of my children! Bad childkilling people bad! /proceeds to murder Nale"
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[JSSheridan]

I disagree with Sherridan's point number 4. I see Tarquin as desiring to bring Nale back into his fold, rather than destroying him. I can't see why he'd love Elan and desire Nale's death in a serious way. The threat of Malack is something that Tarquin can use to influence Nale, but Malack will most likely yield to Tarquin's demands on the matter, such as he did when Tarquin captured Nale at the Palace of Blood.

:tarquin: I want to see Nale brought to justice as much as you do. He's a destabilizing influence who knows too much. ...Stopping him is as much my duty as yours.

[Forikroder]

Considering that's basic artillery tactics when the enemy is in a building that isn't going to fall down soon, yes.:smallconfused: I think they will. They only have Z to be ranged, Malack wont throw asplosions everywhere if it might kill Durkon. He wants that to be a (I cant find the emote page that has all the faces on it right now, sorry.:smallredface:)
:Malack: "I cant explain this, sorry."
:durkon:"I am Lawful Good and do nothing bad, me dwarf, listen to my accent"
:Malack:"Yeah, I was desperate for someone to agree that killing Nale is a reasonable reaction to the murder of my children! Bad childkilling people bad! /proceeds to murder Nale"
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

hes not going to kill Nale until he has the gate

as for tactics, Tarquin and co dont have a way to get to the Ziggurat in one round so theyll have to spen the next couple rounds moving to actually be in range to do anything and the Order can spend that time getting ready to fight

if they had been close enough to take adcantage of the attack that would be different

[martianmister]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png "Of course! I wouldn't dream of usurping command. If anything, I look forward to seeing how you handle the operation" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

I don't think that's means anything. He just want to test Nale's skills.

[Garwain]

So euhm... how come it's too windy to fly for OotS, but not for the LG?

Edit: did Mr. Scruffy survive? oh noes...

[Winter]

So euhm... how come it's too windy to fly for OotS, but not for the LG?

Easy. The Order was inside the Windy Canyon and as such got prevented to fly over it, the LG is over the desert.

Which brings me to my core problem with this plot: The pyramid is awesomely defended from one side... but not at all from all three other directions? Wuh?

[Haldir]

:tarquin: I want to see Nale brought to justice as much as you do. He's a destabilizing influence who knows too much. ...Stopping him is as much my duty as yours.

Which is something a Lawful Evil Father would say to the good twin son about the bad twin son to alleviate anxieties. Tarquin is known for pulling the biggest bluff on the entire Western Continent, and you're quoting him as if he had a constant Zone of Truth on.

I think Tarquin has Nale right where he wants him, back in the nest and working on the plan, and he has no intention of either of his sons getting seriously hurt.

Edit- The reason the LG can fly here is likely because Malack cast Control Winds.

[Quakes]

Edit: did Mr. Scruffy survive? oh noes...

Mr. Scruffy has ridiculous reflex saves, being a kitty and all, and has evasion from being an animal companion. He'll be fine.

[Fenice]

Let's hope. :smallbiggrin:

If the cat died, we could finally see Belkar using his rage ability.

[Kalrany]

...If the cat died, we could finally see Belkar using his rage ability.

I think that he has, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html), but we didn't actually SEE it in-comic. Unless I read the scene wrong...

[Quakes]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) seems pretty ragey too.

[Fenice]

Nah, that's just standard homicidal Belkar. It doesn't compare with Thog's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) rages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).
When I see Belkar's skin turning green, I'll believe it. :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

Nah, that's just standard homicidal Belkar. It doesn't compare with Thog's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) rages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).
When I see Belkar's skin turning green, I'll believe it. :smallbiggrin:
How well would Hulk jokes work for pint-sized Belkar though? I think we'll see him turn red if he ever rages.

[Haldir]

"Halfling Rage Jumping Attack!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)

Pretty safe to assume Belkar is raging in just about every fight.

[Jay R]

Tarquin doesn't take command, he influences things through the titular leader.

While Malack complains to Tarquin about the first attack, we don't know who ordered it. Nale certainly ordered the second one, without consulting Tarquin first.