Experts without expertise

[SilverLeaf167]

We all probably know of the Expert NPC class.
The name and fluff imply that the class represents people who are especially skilled in their own specific field.

If this is the case, then why does the class's crunch focus entirely on learning as many different skills as possible, rather than providing any bonuses in a single one (or a select few)? Also, why would being a good merchant make you better at using weapons and armor? That's not an expert, that's a jack of all trades. Those are two veeery different things.

Is it me or the designers who misunderstood the concept of the class?
If I were to make it more "Expert-y", how should I do that? Free skill bonuses, Skill Focus as a bonus feat?

[Eisenfavl]

How to fix expert and put all those spare skills to good use:
Item Familiars.

Is there anything they can't enhance?

[GoatBoy]

How to fix expert and put all those spare skills to good use:
Item Familiars.

Is there anything they can't enhance?

Class balance.

[Bakkan]

I think it might be based on how things were in the middle ages/Renaissance as opposed to nowadays. Currently, there is so much to know in any single subject (e.g., medicine) that you must specialize (e.g., oncology) and specialize further (e.g., <i ran out of things I know from watching House>), just to know the latest stuff in your field. On the other hand, the classical "Renaissance man" knew a lot of what there was to know in a lot of different subjects. For instance, Sir Isaac Newton was a mathematician, physicist, and philosopher, as were Aristotle, Descartes, and many others.

[--Lime--]

Hmm. I'd never noticed this before.

Perhaps you could, in return for restricting the number of class skills from ten to... four? five? allow the Expert to add more ranks per level than usually allowed.

It's supposed to be an NPC class, so the DM naturally would have domain over the mix of skills and the min-maxing aspect. But I think if you went Expert as a PC and just maxed Spot, Search and Listen you could be a rather good Night Watch Alarm or Finder of Things, and actually contribute to the party. Of course, a Rogue gets more class skills and skill points, and other goodies to boot. But an Expert doesn't have to be useless.

[Hallavast]

I think it might be based on how things were in the middle ages/Renaissance as opposed to nowadays. Currently, there is so much to know in any single subject (e.g., medicine) that you must specialize (e.g., oncology) and specialize further (e.g., <i ran out of things I know from watching House>), just to know the latest stuff in your field. On the other hand, the classical "Renaissance man" knew a lot of what there was to know in a lot of different subjects. For instance, Sir Isaac Newton was a mathematician, physicist, and philosopher, as were Aristotle, Descartes, and many others.

And it's also worth pointing out that all of these famous men were competent enough in arms as to better handle themselves against the dreaded house cat; of which most common men lived in fear.

Look, this is obviously a class for important non-combat, non-nobility NPCs. Nevermind all that skilled tradesman stuff.

[Jasdoif]

I always figured the actual purpose of the Expert class was to allow DMs to model NPCs with arbitrary skillsets with a minimum of fuss.

As for the number of skill points...some areas of expertise encompass multiple skills. An expert on the subject of magic, for instance, could easily have use of Knowledge (the planes) and Spellcraft as well as the more obvious Knowledge (arcana). Similarly, focusing on skills that give synergy bonuses to each other (such as Knowledge (arcana)'s synergy bonus to Spellcraft checks) makes mechanical sense as well as thematic sense.

[Ashtagon]

It's worth noting that by RAW, a 5th level expert (with Skill Focus and the appropriate +2/+2 skill bonus feat) can already far exceed real life expectations. He can hit DC 27 by taking 10 (Alexandrian forgot to account for the +2/+2 feat).

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

So when you say optimise the skill check further, what exactly are you looking for? They are already superhuman in that field.

[nedz]

It's worth noting that by RAW, a 5th level expert (with Skill Focus and the appropriate +2/+2 skill bonus feat) can already far exceed real life expectations. He can hit DC 27 by taking 10 (Alexandrian forgot to account for the +2/+2 feat).

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

So when you say optimise the skill check further, what exactly are you looking for? They are already superhuman in that field.

Yet Marshal 1 / Expert 4 can get still higher skill checks for Cha based skills

[Ashtagon]

My point is that it is trivially easy for the RAW expert class to exceed human norms anyway, in terms of having a high skill check result. Exceeding human norms even further doesn't really matter much --- superhuman is superhuman already.

Adding a bigger skill bonus to make the expert class better simply falls into the same trap that most fighter fixes attempt. Just as more damage doesn't make a better fighter, more skill doesn't make a better expert.

fwiw, one of the Dragonlance books had a master class which was intended to be the expert class upgraded to playable standards.

[Yora]

Is it me or the designers who misunderstood the concept of the class?
It's you. It's a quick and dirty class for unimportant NPCs.

[Bogardan_Mage]

My point is that it is trivially easy for the RAW expert class to exceed human norms anyway, in terms of having a high skill check result. Exceeding human norms even further doesn't really matter much --- superhuman is superhuman already.
What do you mean superhuman? DC 27 is not superhuman, it's not even the world record. What Mr Alexander has discovered is that the maximum ability in the real world tends to correspond with DC 40, and that furthurmore this is attainable at 5th level with the kind of specialisation and circumstance bonuses analogous to real world masters. However, the claim that this leads to superhuman ability at higher levels is for the most part false, because those DCs are not listed and therefore extrapolating to them is every bit as much of a fiat as ruling death on the grounds that "nobody could survive that". Not that it isn't justified, just that it's not borne out by the rules as written. What I take away from that article is that someone did some research when setting DCs with the intent of putting the real world maxima in reach of level 20 characters. Then, because it's a game where the players are supposed to make choices about their character's development, stuff like Skill Focus was added to give bonuses to skills. But that still doesn't lead to superhuman abilities because they simply aren't written!

[Ashtagon]

What do you mean superhuman? DC 27 is not superhuman, it's not even the world record. What Mr Alexander has discovered is that the maximum ability in the real world tends to correspond with DC 40, and that furthurmore this is attainable at 5th level with the kind of specialisation and circumstance bonuses analogous to real world masters. However, the claim that this leads to superhuman ability at higher levels is for the most part false, because those DCs are not listed and therefore extrapolating to them is every bit as much of a fiat as ruling death on the grounds that "nobody could survive that". Not that it isn't justified, just that it's not borne out by the rules as written. What I take away from that article is that someone did some research when setting DCs with the intent of putting the real world maxima in reach of level 20 characters. Then, because it's a game where the players are supposed to make choices about their character's development, stuff like Skill Focus was added to give bonuses to skills. But that still doesn't lead to superhuman abilities because they simply aren't written!

You don't seem to recognise what superhuman means. Sure, it includes four-colour comic book stuff like batman and the flash, but it also includes anything that beats actual world records.

Take the Jump skill...

The world record is 8.95 m (or 8.99 if you include jumps that are not officially counted). These correspond to 29.36 ft and 29.49 ft, respectively.

The DC for a long jump with a running start is equal to the distance in feet. In other words, the world record long jump is equal to a DC 29 jump (if you round off the DC number). Given the rules of competitive long jumping, we can rule out taking 20.

A level 5 'expert' jumper can get...

+8 from skill ranks
+4 from an ability score of 18
+3 Skill Focus (jump) feat
+2 Acrobatic feat
+4 Run feat (since he has a running start)
+2 masterwork athletic footwear
+2 skill synergy from Tumble skill

= +25 total

In other words, he can take 10 and beat the world's longest jump by six feet, any time he cares to try. Other skills have identical issues with beating world records.

You may counter-argue that competitive jumping is a stress situation, so no taking 10. Well, he still only need to roll a 4 to equal to world record. Anything higher, and he has just placed his name in history books. And he's only level five.

Edit: It gets crazy even at lower levels.

A level two jumper can get:

+5 from skill ranks
+4 from an ability score of 18
+3 Skill Focus (jump) feat
+4 Run feat (since he has a running start)
+2 masterwork athletic footwear
+2 skill synergy from Tumble skill

= +20 total.

Even at level two, an NPC class will routinely break the world long jumping record.

So, yeah. The problem with making the expert class truly expert has nothing to do with skill ranks, and everything to do with making them do fancy stuff above and beyond what a given skill rank is meant to be able to accomplish. Kind of like how improving the fighter isn't merely a matter of increasing his ability to deal damage.

[Thurbane]

I always figured the actual purpose of the Expert class was to allow DMs to model NPCs with arbitrary skillsets with a minimum of fuss.

It's you. It's a quick and dirty class for unimportant NPCs.
Bingo!

Experts are just there to flesh out NPCs like merchants, scholars, blacksmiths etc. Sure, most of them could do that without needing 6 different skills, but short of having a different class for every NPC profession, I think the Expert class as written covers it nicely.

FWIW, Factotum is like an Expert cranked up to 11.

[Bogardan_Mage]

You don't seem to recognise what superhuman means. Sure, it includes four-colour comic book stuff like batman and the flash, but it also includes anything that beats actual world records.
Except you can't beat actual world records with most skills. There's one notable exception that Mr Alexander explores in some detail...


Take the Jump skill...
Yeah, that one. But the fact that a 5th level Expert focused on jumping can achieve superhuman jumps does not mean that a 5th level Expert can achieve superhuman feats with any given skill. This analysis applies to Jump and to Jump alone. In fact, it applies to 3.5 Jump alone since 3.0 had figures that were not only calibrated more closely to real world records, but had a cap based on the character's height.

Jump is the one skill with which you can exceed human norms, and that's just because the 3.5 updaters wanted to make it less complicated. Show me one other skill that allows superhuman feats pre-epic by RAW.

[ericgrau]

An expert could be good at multiple skills and fulfill a single role. What if all his ranks aren't only in craft or profession? What if he's some kind of scout or guide or etc. He'll want a set of skills that cover that area though he might not max out all of them. Knowledges might be common, but depending on the task physical skills could often play a role too... as could a profession on top of that.

An artisan or other professional is anyone with ranks in profession, regardless of class. This is an even smaller characteristic than class. You really limit your options if he can't do something else. If he wants to specialize, he can always take skill focus or one of the skill feats. That's already painful enough; nevermind limiting him to a single skill.

If you want to make your own class that specializes more you may certainly do it. You might reduce the skill points and give some bonus to one skill. I don't think simple weapon and armor use is excessive but you're likewise free to drop it to wizard-like proficiency. Be aware of PCs dipping the class; some rare PCs already dip expert. It's fine, I might even encourage it, just don't give out an excessive bonus.

[Ashtagon]

Except you can't beat actual world records with most skills. There's one notable exception that Mr Alexander explores in some detail...


Yeah, that one. But the fact that a 5th level Expert focused on jumping can achieve superhuman jumps does not mean that a 5th level Expert can achieve superhuman feats with any given skill. This analysis applies to Jump and to Jump alone. In fact, it applies to 3.5 Jump alone since 3.0 had figures that were not only calibrated more closely to real world records, but had a cap based on the character's height.

Jump is the one skill with which you can exceed human norms, and that's just because the 3.5 updaters wanted to make it less complicated. Show me one other skill that allows superhuman feats pre-epic by RAW.

Ehhh, 3.0e SRD is here (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html). The changes to the running jump cap it at 36 feet (for a typical 6 ft tall human) and increase the DC by +5. So the 5th level character I described upthread will still routinely break the world record when he takes 10, and break it more often than not any time he has to roll for it.

ok, let's take the Perform skill. I think we can safely say that DC 30 ("draw attention from distant potential patrons or even from extraplanar beings") is superhuman, as extraplanar beings (or let's face it, aliens) have not been known to attend many concerts or music festivals.

+8 skill ranks
+4 18 Charisma
+2 masterwork instrument
+3 Skill Focus feat

= +17 total.

So, he only needs to roll a 13 (not particularly hard) to eventually attract the attention of space aliens or extra-planar beings. I'm going to go out on a limb and call that a superhuman ability. To be sure, there are rumours that this is what Elvis actually did, but yeah.

-----------------------

Or how about the Listen skill?

+8 skill ranks
+4 18 Wisdom
+3 Skill Focus feat
+2 Alertness feat
+0 I can't think of any obvious masterwork item that would help.

= +17 total.

He need to roll a 13 to hear "An owl gliding in for a kill", and only needs to roll a 2 to hear "A cat stalking". Or he coudl take 10 and hear that cat at 80 feet. The footfall of a cat is one of the items that is regarded in legend as not actually existing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleipnir) because it is so silent.

Given the background noise in even ideal conditions and the objectively measurable volume of the footfall of a cat, there is good scientific reason to believe that it really is physically impossible to distinguish this from background noise beyond a couple of feet. So yeah, he's doing stuff that is not only superhuman, but breaking the laws of physics.

-------------------

So, you said there was only one skill where you could break human norms, and that only because of the 3.5 revision. I've just shown there are three skills where you can break human records; one of them involves breaking the laws of physics too.

Once you expand beyond core, or add magic, you can get even more ridiculous levels of optimisation. But I'm trying to keep to what a "real" human could have.

[Morithias]

I think in one of the Ravenloft books there was a "Greater skill focus" feat, that boosted it to +6. I think it was legacy of blood.

[tyckspoon]

An expert could be good at multiple skills and fulfill a single role.


Eyup. If you really want an actual narrow-subject/single-topic expert, Commoner can pretty much do that. They have Craft and Profession in-class already, and Knowledges are fairly easy to acquire as class skills via feat. Experts aren't made for that kind of thing; they're people who have to be good at multiple topics in order to do what they do. Merchants running large businesses who have to do accounting, social skills, management. Diplomats who need the whole suite of social skills, should probably speak several languages, and may be called on to do a touch of espionage on the side. Wilderness guides that are actually capable of surviving the rather lethal range of things in D&D's wilderness. A royal historian (Know: History is a given. But he probably also should have Local, Nobility, and Geography, and maybe Decipher Script for those really *old* and/or incomplete sources, and Speak Language for stuff that may be relevant but recorded by other races.)

Sure, a lot of those jobs may have a few extraneous skills when you build them as Experts, but you can't really do them any other way; the flexibility of Expert lets you easily do them all with the same class without loading them with a bunch of other random PC class powers that make even less sense.

[Bogardan_Mage]

ok, let's take the Perform skill. I think we can safely say that DC 30 ("draw attention from distant potential patrons or even from extraplanar beings") is superhuman, as extraplanar beings (or let's face it, aliens) have not been known to attend many concerts or music festivals.

+8 skill ranks
+4 18 Charisma
+2 masterwork instrument
+3 Skill Focus feat

= +17 total.

So, he only needs to roll a 13 (not particularly hard) to eventually attract the attention of space aliens or extra-planar beings. I'm going to go out on a limb and call that a superhuman ability. To be sure, there are rumours that this is what Elvis actually did, but yeah.
That's based on a world where extra-planar beings demonstrably exist and take an interest on what happens on the material plane (to some extent at least). Also it only lists it as a possible outcome and says it happens "in time", that is to say that patrons come from far away as word reaches them. If there's no way for word to reach them it doesn't matter how good the performance is, because they'll never know about it. It's just talking about how far people are willing to travel to see your performance, it's not saying that your performance automatically teleports celestials to you.


Or how about the Listen skill?

+8 skill ranks
+4 18 Wisdom
+3 Skill Focus feat
+2 Alertness feat
+0 I can't think of any obvious masterwork item that would help.

= +17 total.

He need to roll a 13 to hear "An owl gliding in for a kill", and only needs to roll a 2 to hear "A cat stalking". Or he coudl take 10 and hear that cat at 80 feet. The footfall of a cat is one of the items that is regarded in legend as not actually existing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleipnir) because it is so silent.

Given the background noise in even ideal conditions and the objectively measurable volume of the footfall of a cat, there is good scientific reason to believe that it really is physically impossible to distinguish this from background noise beyond a couple of feet. So yeah, he's doing stuff that is not only superhuman, but breaking the laws of physics.
"A cat stalking" is not the same as "a single footfall of a cat". The cat's still moving through the enviroment and could make a sound that way. Also that DC seems to be based on the cat's Move Silently modifier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) and every 1st level Commoner knows how well that statblock reflects reality.

[ericgrau]

Level 5 is similar to a major real world figure like a professional athlete or professional performer so I don't see what's so special about gaining widespread renown at that level. Especially if it's merely "attract the attention". That tells me baseline famous not even super famous.

And by level 11 you're actually supposed to be doing the "impossible".

Background noise does not perfectly mask sounds in living creatures with two ears which use stereo to distinguish location. It's harder but not "physically impossible" to distinguish two noises. We take it for granted that we can talk to eachother with music in the background, but playing music is an old trick to foil hidden microphones.

Not that I expect any skill checks to be incredibly realistic, but they're not miles away.

[Suteinu]

Check out Dragonlance supliment War of the Lance. Core class: Master. Essentially, this is the Expert NPC class made PC. Well balanced (in my opinion) and one of my favorite Core classes for making things like, say, a Bard in a low-/ no magic setting.

[Ashtagon]

Level 5 is similar to a major real world figure like a professional athlete or professional performer so I don't see what's so special about gaining widespread renown at that level. Especially if it's merely "attract the attention". That tells me baseline famous not even super famous.

My point is that at level 5, a character isn't merely competing with Olympic class athletes and other world famous historical figures, but routinely beating them. That's why I don't think the expert class needs to be any more expert at what he does than RAW allows for.



And by level 11 you're actually supposed to be doing the "impossible".


Yes, that's why I deliberately only considered up to level 5, which has been mostly accepted as the upper limit of where realistic humans should be.



Background noise does not perfectly mask sounds in living creatures with two ears which use stereo to distinguish location. It's harder but not "physically impossible" to distinguish two noises. We take it for granted that we can talk to eachother with music in the background, but playing music is an old trick to foil hidden microphones.

...

Well, since you question "physically impossible"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Examples_of_sound_pressure_and_soun d_pressure_levels
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distance.htm

Zero decibels (0.0002 microbar, or 20 micropascals) is considered to be the quietness limit of human hearing for a typical person. Each time distance is multiplied by 10, volume drops by 20 decibels.

A normal conversion at 1 metre is about 40-60 db. That implies that at 1000 metres distance, it is in the region of -20 to 0 decibels, which is below the limits of what can be physically heard, regardless of background noise.

And yes, we can hear others talking over music. Let's suppose the nightclub's sound system is blaring out at 85 db at 1 m distance. Suppose you are 10 metres away from the speakers, then your local music volume is 65 db. Since normal speech is 60 db, you can put your mouth up close to your friend's ear (10 cm, say), and expect to be heard over that (your voice is effectively at 80 db, compared to the music's 65 db).

A very calm room is normally at 20-30 db. Which means that a sound at or below that volume is unlikely to be heard because it is quieter than the background noise. So A conversation (60 db) at 100 m is effectively at 20 db, which is pretty much low enough that it gets drowned out by background noise anyway.

Also...

Die, catgirls, die!

[Squidfist]

I don't have time to read, but this may have been suggested:

Do your skill focus plan, but make it a special ability unique to expert, allowing a craft / perform (or maybe any 1 single skill) check to get bonuses equal to his class level.

Maybe weapon focus/spec / TWF / Shield specialization or something in that wheelhouse at later levels to further support your expertyness in a particular area. (if you're trying to make it a viable class for combat as well.)

[ericgrau]

My whole point on listen was already:
1. Extraordinary people are not typical people.
2. Even normal people can, with a little difficulty, hear softer sounds in spite of other louder sounds around them. This does not violate physics, and a very soft sound is no exception. The further detail I went into was only to explain how they do it. Quoting decibel numbers to show that one noise is louder than another is missing the point entirely.

Jump is the single skill that everyone knows and admits violates reality ever since the simplification update from 3.0 to 3.5. In D&D thanks to plane shift prominent extraplanar beings are not as rare as aliens, they are as rare as prominent foreigners. And so you naturally also need a DC 30 to attract prominent foreigners, not some different DC.

There were similar complaints about jump in 4e since the skill stayed similar. In response the designers likewise said they knew it but that was getting into too much detail for them to care.

[Ashtagon]

1. You're right. Extraordinary people are not typical. Nonetheless, even extraordinary people can't hear a noise if there is a louder noise present. This is for the same reason that you can't see the stars during the day -- the brightness of the Sun drowns out the lesser brightness of the stars. It's impossible, that's all.

2. As I showed, the reason normal people can hear 'softer' sounds in a noisy environment is because we are accustomed to thinking of the human voice as being objectively quieter than loud music in a nightclub (or whatever other context of background noise you want to consider). But the actual distance from the sound source matters a great deal, and when you talk close to someone's ear, the perceived loudness increases, even though no extra vocal effort was made to increase volume.

3. The Jump skill violates reality even in the 3.0e version of the skill, as I noted when I linked up the 3.0e SRD.

4. Since the existence of both ETs and supernatural beings in our world is disputed, it's impossible to examine the results of the Perform skill in further detail.

[toapat]

1. You're right. Extraordinary people are not typical. Nonetheless, even extraordinary people can't hear a noise if there is a louder noise present. This is for the same reason that you can't see the stars during the day -- the brightness of the Sun drowns out the lesser brightness of the stars. It's impossible, that's all.

2. As I showed, the reason normal people can hear 'softer' sounds in a noisy environment is because we are accustomed to thinking of the human voice as being objectively quieter than loud music in a nightclub (or whatever other context of background noise you want to consider). But the actual distance from the sound source matters a great deal, and when you talk close to someone's ear, the perceived loudness increases, even though no extra vocal effort was made to increase volume.

3. The Jump skill violates reality even in the 3.0e version of the skill, as I noted when I linked up the 3.0e SRD.

4. Since the existence of both ETs and supernatural beings in our world is disputed, it's impossible to examine the results of the Perform skill in further detail.

1: You are comparing the difference between an undefined scenario, and apparent brightness, an antiquitated measure of a star's brightness, that puts the average celestial objects' brightness at below 1, while the sun itself has a measure of over 6000

2: you can hear things that are quieter then others, you have to focus on the sound though, and you are not gaurenteed to be able to make out all the sounds while doing so.

3: no arguement, i was thinking this got errata'd to 4"/1 point, but thats the high jump DC

4: Perform DCs for profit specifically state how likely the stories of this performance will spread, but these are also DCs based on a bard's likelyhood of sucess in the Greyhawk setting. The DC charts are rough guidelines. If we were to use Earth as an example, what constitutes a 25 DC on Greyhawk is a 75 DC here. (estimate, more likely even harder)

[Lonely Tylenol]

My point is that at level 5, a character isn't merely competing with Olympic class athletes and other world famous historical figures, but routinely beating them. That's why I don't think the expert class needs to be any more expert at what he does than RAW allows for.

Correction: a level 5 with a deliberate and specific focus in a particular skill.

What you're describing is, by all accounts, a world-class athlete.

Or how else would you stat out a world-class long-jump champion?

I mean, I concede that there are certain bonii (a liberal interpretation of what "masterwork tools" means, for example, but also the use of the Run feat and synergy bonus) that make this an exception of sorts, but consider the character that you are building:

The character is an expert: per the DMG, Experts represent 3% of the NPC population (that's normal folk like us).
The character is level 5: represents the upper limit of where realistic humans should be.
The character has 18 STR: since the non-elite array assumes 3d6 with no modifiers, this means the character is at the pinnacle of physical perfection, and also at peak performance (no age modifiers), so the character literally won the genetic lottery here. Hang Point Buy! I know I didn't choose MY Constitution score.
The character has a very specific and narrow focus on the Jump skill: this is a person who does only one thing, and one thing very well, and that is jumping. In fact, you might say that, between their unnaturally high STR and rigorous training, this is a character that has probably spent their whole life jumping.

Now, let's see what we can extrapolate from those four facts (using D&D rules):
First, the character exists as one of the relatively elite 3% of Experts in the world (DMG 138-9). That sets even a 1st-level Expert aside from the chaff, but when you combine it with the D&D distribution for class and level, and what you end up with is the fact that, say, in a large town (2,001-5,000) where the highest level locals are Experts, assuming 5th-level Experts even exist in that town, you may expect to find less than a dozen, on average (10 after community modifiers, to be specific). Averaging out the populations of an average large town (to 3,500), that means you will find 10 in 3,500 level 5 Experts, or 1 in 350 (.286%). If we generalize and say that the 91% of such towns have Commoners as their highest-level characters, 5% Warriors, 3% Experts, and 1% Aristocrats (Adepts don't exist in a "no-magic" world like ours), then we can say that finding such a town is about a 1-in-33 occurrence (I'll round down in your favor), meaning that .0086%, or 86 in 1,000,000 people, are 5th-level experts.

Now, your character also has 18 STR, representing a character who, through a combination of good genes and specific training, achieved what we would refer to as a "peak physical condition". It is attained 1 in 216 times on a 3d6 roll, which is representative of the average NPC like ourselves. Such a character would also have a single ability score bonus at 4th-level, so it is possible for them to roll a 17 and still have a modifier of +4 (if they put it in Strength, and let's assume for the sake of argument that half do - that is still disproportionately large on the "random" scale, but not everybody that is strong focuses only on their strength). That means that 2.5 of every 216 people (1.157%) have 18 in the stat of their choosing by level 4, which means that exactly 1 commoner in the 86 (or, rather, .995 of one - but I'm willing to commit another rounding error in your favor) will be a 5th-level commoner with 18 STR. That's 1 in 1 million (after rounding to the third or fourth decimal in a few places)...

...But wait! We don't get to choose WHICH of our stats gets to be the highest. At conception, we basically roll 3d6 six times in order! That multiplies the odds against your 18 STR 5th-level Expert by six again! Your long-jumper is now one in six million....

...Well, not quite. This only represents the likelihood of a character ever existing as a 5th-level Expert with 18 STR at any point in their life, by RAW, without even factoring in age (another error in your favor). Now, what is the likelihood that such a character is a long-jumper? Remember, this is something that you have to sink not only a large portion of your skill points, but also all of your feats into (assuming a 5th-level Human taking Acrobatic, Skill Focus (Jump) and Run)... But calculating all of THAT involves various socioeconomic factors and other random factors beyond most people's control, and is thus too burdensome, even for me... So I'll just say that, say, 1 in 100 such people (plus a number of lesser people, either in level, attributes, feats, or skill selection) devote their lives to long jumping. Fewer still get noticed, but we'll just assume (for your benefit) that every one of these people makes it big.

That is 1 in 600,000,000 people, on a representative scale. Using today's population statistics, that means there are about a dozen people in this D&D world who are 5th-level Experts with 18 STR and a focus in Jump. Hmm... Anybody know how many people entered the long jump competition in the 2008 Summer Olympics?

Now, for the second part... Strip away the masterwork shoes. I don't know of any shoe in any competitive sport that allows you to jump an extra two horizontal feet. (Such a shoe may exist--for example, one that is spring-loaded or something to that effect--but it is likely not regulation Olympic footwear). You now have a character with a +23 Jump modifier.

The last part? Remember that 3.5's rule revisions involved a simplification of the Jump skill that made it easier to remember, but less realistic. In 3.0, a Jump result of 33 (the result of your character, without MW shoes, taking 10 on his Jump checks) would jump 28 feet, horizontally. With the shoes, your 1-in-600,000,000 man would jump 30 feet, beating the current long-jump record by half a foot. The same person (wearing spring-loaded Air Jordans) would jump 7.5 feet, vertically, which might allow them to jump safely over a moving car.

"But Tylenol!" you protest. "Certainly I could just decide not to take 10, and roll for my result? I have almost 50% chance of winning then!"

This is true, I suppose, and this is where my argument is at its weakest; however, let me remind you that Olympic-class athletes are not only exceptionally good at what they do, but also consistently good in the doing. Like, "taking 10" good. You would probably have a better approximation of an Olympic jumping competition (and all world records) by assuming all characters take 10 on their Jump check and then roll d% to determine the variance from the number of feet jumped, in hundredths of feet, where 50 represents an exact footage (the DC result exactly), every number below 50 representing a hundredth of a foot below the DC result, and every number above 50 representing a hundredth of a foot above. Remember that most NPCs in an orderly society are assumed to be taking 10 on all checks all the time anyhow, which is why an untrained commoner is assumed to automatically pass, say, a Listen DC10 check, even if there is a chance of failure; a roll is only ever really necessary for checks that are too difficult to make when taking 10. The long jump world record, then, is the result of a 34 check result with a 99 on the d%, which is a truly exceptional jump by a truly exceptional person. Yes, it's a house rule, but it's certainly more realistic than making straight Jump checks, which have an end-to-end variance of 19 feet and don't account for measurements smaller than a foot.

If you're going to hyperbolize by saying that an Expert who is "only" fifth level can shatter world records in the most easily broken skill check with the less realistic revision (which is 3.5 RAW, but less realistic) and then decry how unrealistic it is, you're going to have to account for all of the factors that make a level 5 Expert ("only" level 5) capable of doing this.

As for the Perform check? If you ignore the extra planar beings part (because, frankly, we don't live in an extra planar cosmos, so why WOULD you consider it?), what you basically end up with is a fifth-level expert with all of the probability results above (1 in 600,000,000; let's say more than that, because people are more likely to aspire to be great musicians and artists than long jumpers) who is capable of drawing in a large crowd from all around with a good Perform result. Like, say, a professional musician? Think Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, John Lennon, Michael Jackson, etc. (No, not all of these people are great musicians, but they are all undeniably good at PERFORMANCE.) Bands are among the most common for exceptional performances, because of the +2 Aid Another bonuses (meaning lesser people can have the odd exceptional performance with enough luck and effort, but the true masters can do so by taking 10). Dancers and comedians capable of drawing crowds large enough to fill stadiums (as opposed to, say, performance halls and such) are rarer, either because of the lack of suitable masterwork equipment or the lack of Aid Another bonuses (the likes of George Carlin, Edde Murphy and Dane Cook might be able to fill a stadium, but their kind are rarer).

As far as Listen is concerned... There is at least one person alive today who can anticipate the trajectory of a ball bearing fired from a gun faster than the eye can see, so as to be able to SLICE IT OUT OF THE AIR WITH A SWORD... I am willing to believe that there are maybe a handful of people (remember that we are talking about the exceptional cases here) that can hear an owl swooping out of the sky for a kill, on a good day.

[Ashtagon]

@Lonely Tylenol

Your maths is wrong.

First, the jumping specialist build I describe could be based off absolutely any character class at all, even a commoner. So there is no "3% of the population only are experts" issue at work here. In fact, given what the fluff is supposed to represent, there is a very reasonable argument to suggest that an Olympic athlete should be built off the commoner class.

Odds so far: 100%

He is human with 18 Strength and 5th level. That means he either rolled a natural 18 on this ability score (1 in 216), or rolled a 17 (3 in 216) and chose to boost Strength at 4th level (1 in 6 chance if done randomly, less generous than your 1 in 2).

Odds of being a 5th level character with an 18 in Strength: (1/216) + (3/216 x 1/6) = 1/144 (about 0.69%)

That's a bit better than your one in a million.

You add that "must be 3d6 in order" clause. Well, 1/216 assumes you are doing just that. What this guy rolled for his other stats had no bearing on his Strength roll. So, no change.

Odds: No change from above

You note that only one in a hundred of those with random potential will also show appropriate interest in training up this skill to such a level. That makes in 1/14400 now. Although I do wonder which skill the other 99% have decided to focus on to make their career out of.

Aside: The odds of someone having an 18 in any ability score, assuming 3d6 in order, and random selection of an ability core to boost at 4th level, is 4.09%. That means 4.09% of the 5th level population have the potential to routinely breaking world records in their chosen field.

You don't want masterwork shoes? Fine. He still has a +23 bonus in 3.5e. In 3.0e, he actually has a +19 bonus, since the Run feat adds 25% to the final result rather than 3.5e's flat +4 bonus.

In 3.5e, than means he needs a roll of 6 (23 + 6) to put his name down as a world record.

In 3.0e, he only needs a roll of 9 (((19 + 9 - 5) +25%) = 28.75, which rounds to 29) to break the world record. Assuming he is six feet tall, he'll hit the upper limit of what the rolls allow any time he rolls a 15 or higher.

Now back to our real world Olympians. Their best ever achievement was 29 feet (actually 28.something, but yeah). That means that's what they achieved on a good day while someone was watching. It's reasonable to suppose this was what they achieved on a high roll, given that at this level of ability, we expect high levels of optimisation, that each individual has done it in front of an audience many times, and that many people are competing simultaneously before each audience. Assuming 20 long jumpers jump (ie. twenty 1d20 rolls) are made, there's a 99% chance (that's 1 - 0.8^20) that at least one of them will roll a 17 or higher (90% chance of at least one 20). Which means that assuming the levels of char-op given earlier, the world record should be in the region of 40-43 feet for a 5th level character (capped at 36 feet if playing by 3.0e rules).

It isn't.

[Ashtagon]

So what level of optimisation should we expect from a world-class long jumper? Let's do it backwards.

Let's assume he rolled a 17 on his skill check (not an unreasonable assumption; see previous post).

Under 3.5e, to hit his target of 28.something feet, he needed a DC 29 result. In other words, he had +12 on his skill check.

Level 1:
+4 skill ranks
+4 Run feat
+3 Skill Focus

Well, he'd have actually needed to roll an 18 to break the world record instead of 17, but yeah. Even a 1st level commoner with a 10 in Strength can hope to break a world record in 3.5e.

And 3.0e? His total of (d20 roll plus skill bonuses minus five) needs to reach 23, which then gets a 25% boost from the Run feat, to reach 28.75 feet -- a world record breaker. For our target roll of 17, he needs +11 on Jump to make this long jump.

Level 1:
+4 skill ranks
+3 Skill Focus
+0 Run feat (adds 25% to final distance instead)
+4 18 Strength

So yeah. A 1st level commoner with 18 Strength (1 in 216 of the population) could be optimised to break the world record long jump in 3.0e.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Odds of being a 5th level character with an 18 in Strength: (1/216) + (3/216 x 1/6) = 1/144 (about 0.69%)

That's a bit better than your one in a million.
The important odds here are the odds of being a 5th level character period. One of Mr Alexander's key premises is that 5th level represents the rare few that achieve mastery in their respective fields. You are assuming that every single person is 5th level to begin with. Also you're assuming that every person with aptitude for a particular skill (i.e. 18 in the relevant ability score) will seek to develop that skill to his or her fullest potential (i.e. taking Skill Focus, "Alertness-style" feats, synergy, etc.). It's difficult to quantify these last two percentages, but I assure you they are both far below 100%.


Aside: The odds of someone having an 18 in any ability score, assuming 3d6 in order, and random selection of an ability core to boost at 4th level, is 4.09%. That means 4.09% of the 5th level population have the potential to routinely breaking world records in their chosen field.
I asked you previously to back up this claim that because it applies to Jump it therefore applies to every other skill and you responded with ridiculous interpretations of the RAW that you have since failed to defend. Maybe it's just me, but when I encounter a rule that appears to break the laws of physics with an untrained skill check I consider the possibility that I might have misinterpreted the designer's intent.

[Lonely Tylenol]

@Lonely Tylenol

Your maths is wrong.

First, the jumping specialist build I describe could be based off absolutely any character class at all, even a commoner. So there is no "3% of the population only are experts" issue at work here. In fact, given what the fluff is supposed to represent, there is a very reasonable argument to suggest that an Olympic athlete should be built off the commoner class.

Odds so far: 100%

OK, but there goes your synergy bonus from Tumble unless you're taking flaws, putting you down two.

91/5/3/1 is also the general composition for level 1 NPC classes. What percentage of those commoners do you think is level 5? (Hint: The answer is below! :smallwink:)


He is human with 18 Strength and 5th level. That means he either rolled a natural 18 on this ability score (1 in 216), or rolled a 17 (4 in 216) and chose to boost Strength at 4th level (1 in 6 chance if done randomly, less generous than your 1 in 2).

Odds of being a 5th level character with an 18 in Strength: (1/216) + (4/216 x 1/6) = 5/648 (about 0.77%)

OK, I see my mistake on the latter part of the generation, but there is a mistake:

The odds of getting a natural 17 or higher combined is 4 in 216 (the odds of rolling 18 exactly is 1 in 216--6/6/6--, plus the odds of rolling 17 exactly, which are 3 in 216--6/6/5, 6/5/6, and 5/6/6). So what you end up with is thus:

(1/216) + (3/216 x 1/6) - Solve for the parenthesis
(1/216) + (3/1296) - Multiply 1/216 by 6/6 to produce a common denominator
6/1296 + 3/1296 = 9/1296 - Divide by 9/9 to simplify
(9/9)/(1296/9) = 1/144 = .69444...

A minor snaggle, of course, but regardless.


That's a bit better than your one in a million.

Assuming 100% of all people are 5th-level Commoners or some equivalent or better, yes.

What are the odds (given the RAW level distribution), I must ask, that a given person is level 5?


You add that "must be 3d6 in order" clause. Well, 1/216 assumes you are doing just that. What this guy rolled for his other stats had no bearing on his Strength roll. So, no change.

Odds: No change from above

Yeah, ignore that part. My bad.

In other words, every time I mention 1 in 6 million, I actually mean 1 in 1 million (and 1 in 600 million, I mean 1 in 100 million).


You note that only one in a hundred of those with random potential will also show appropriate interest in training up this skill to such a level. That makes in 5/64800 now. Although I do wonder which skill the other 99% have decided to focus on to make their career out of.

Is everybody in your perception of the real world 5th level or better? :smallconfused:

According to the DMG, there are 4d4 + community modifier commoners of the highest level in any given populated area (in a large town, this is a +3 for a population of 2,001-5,000). This averages out to 13 5th-level commoners in 3,500 within a town, with 91% of all populated areas having commoners as their highest-level NPC. This equates to about .37% of all people in a given large town which contains commoners as their highest-level NPC, which is most of them (91% if we super-size the single-town generalizations), for a total of about .338% of all people, or about 1 in 296, being 5th-level commoners. I think even this distribution is erroneous, but then, we're also now talking about the savants of the world: with 2+INT skill points per level and one of each being devoted to only one skill, we're now talking about somebody who is literally exceptional at only one thing and completely worthless at everything else (somebody who pursues jumping to such a fervent extent that he forsakes things like talking to people, or listening, or being able to open a locked door, or prepare food, or work at a job). In any case, I discuss the other 99% below (but going that route, even that number probably doesn't make sense in that context, because that presumes that 1 in 100 people with potential to do one thing devote themselves entirely to one thing, which is disproportionately high).

For those keeping tabs at home, the odds of being capable of being exceptional at any one thing (which is to say, a 5th-level Commoner with a 17 or higher in an ability score, that becomes an 18 at 4th level) is 1/144 * 1/296, or 1/42624. Assuming that roughly 1 in 100 such people devote their lives whole-heartedly to jumping, that means that 1 in 4,262,400 people are both exceptional at jumping and try hard to succeed at it (and do). That is less than 2,000 people alive today.

I address the other 99% below, which is why, in retrospect, I feel it appropriate to say 1 in 100 is a skewed number, given the number of people who will either pursue something else within their field of natural talent (lifting weights and other feats of strength, bodybuilding, climbing, hitting things, and so on), or pursue (perhaps erroneously) something outside their field of expertise (such as something requiring feats of knowledge or intelligence, or dexterity), or simply don't pursue any one thing at all (or don't pursue anything exceptionally well). How many high school quarterbacks do you know, for example, that made it to the NFL? On a percentage scale?


Aside: The odds of someone having an 18 in any ability score, assuming 3d6 in order, and random selection of an ability core to boost at 4th level, is 4.5%. That means 4.5% of the 5th level population have the potential to routinely breaking world records in their chosen field.

Assuming that every single person with 18 points in an ability score applies themselves whole-heartedly to doing a single thing exceptionally well, yes. However, you and I both know that somebody can very well dedicate their life to trying to succeed at something that doesn't suit their greatest strengths, or not devote themselves whole-heartedly (which I guess in this sense could mean anything from not devoting all of the feats to one skill, or not devoting max ranks to a skill), or willfully deciding to dabble in many different things, or simply not executing it well (these are your "low-op" IRL players).


You don't want masterwork shoes? Fine. He still has a +23 bonus in 3.5e. In 3.0e, he actually has a +19 bonus, since the Run feat adds 25% to the final result rather than 3.5e's flat +4 bonus.

Actually, he has a +21 and +17, respectively, since you no longer have a +2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in Tumble (the most you can have cross-class by level 5 is 4 ranks).


In 3.5e, than means he needs a roll of 6 to put his name down as a world record.

9. The world record is greater than 29 feet.


In 3.0e, he only needs a roll of 9 (((19 + 9 - 5) +25%) = 28.75, which rounds to 29) to break the world record. Assuming he is six feet tall, he'll hit the upper limit of what the rolls allow any time he rolls a 15 or higher.

12. See above. This also means he can no longer take 10 and succeed.


Now back to our real world Olympians. Their best ever achievement was 29 feet (actually 28.something, but yeah).

I'm sorry, I thought we were modeling this off of these results:


The world record is 8.95 m (or 8.99 if you include jumps that are not officially counted). These correspond to 29.36 ft and 29.49 ft, respectively.


That means that's what they achieved on a good day while someone was watching. It's reasonable to suppose this was what they achieved on a high roll, given that at this level of ability, we expect high levels of optimisation, that each individual has done it in front of an audience many times, and that many people are competing simultaneously before each audience. Assuming 20 long jumpers jump (ie. twenty 1d20 rolls) are made, there's a 99% chance (that's 1 - 0.8^20) that at least one of them will roll a 17 or higher (90% chance of at least one 20). Which means that assuming the levels of char-op given earlier, the world record should be in the region of 40-43 feet for a 5th level character (capped at 36 feet if playing by 3.0e rules).

This also assumes a wildly inconsistent level of variety between any given set of jumps that we simply do not see on the competitive level. See: competitive athletes (and everybody else in the world, for that matter) more than likely taking 10 and rolling on the fractions of feet.

In order to take 10 and match the world record using the (more realistic) 3.0 metric, you need to be an Expert and get the +2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in Tumble, and 5th-level Experts are, to wit, about 1/39 as common as 5th-level Commoners (which marks 1 in 1,662,336 people as being 5th-level Experts with 18 or higher STR, with 1/6 of the 17s becoming 18s). Assuming my more favorable numbers (where 1/2 of the 17s become 18s), 1 in 992,784 people would be 5th-level Experts with 18 STR.

In fact, since we are talking about people that are, well, experts at things, these statistics for Expert still apply, even if a Commoner could theoretically do it almost as well, because somebody who specializes in something is an Expert.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I didn't see this until after I posted, but it's worth posting individually.


So what level of optimisation should we expect from a world-class long jumper? Let's do it backwards.

Let's assume he rolled a 17 on his skill check (not an unreasonable assumption; see previous post).

Under 3.5e, to hit his target of 28.something feet, he needed a DC 29 result. In other words, he had +12 on his skill check.

Level 1:
+4 skill ranks
+4 Run feat
+3 Skill Focus

Well, he'd have actually needed to roll an 18 to break the world record instead of 17, but yeah. Even a 1st level commoner with a 10 in Strength can hope to break a world record in 3.5e.

And 3.0e? His total of (d20 roll plus skill bonuses minus five) needs to reach 23, which then gets a 25% boost from the Run feat, to reach 28.75 feet -- a world record breaker. For our target roll of 17, he needs +11 on Jump to make this long jump.

Level 1:
+4 skill ranks
+3 Skill Focus
+0 Run feat (adds 25% to final distance instead)
+4 18 Strength

So yeah. A 1st level commoner with 18 Strength (1 in 216 of the population) could be optimised to break the world record long jump in 3.0e.

OK, this I can definitely respect and concede to; a 1st-level Human Commoner can, theoretically, jump 30 feet (effectively breaking the world record). However, I still maintain that athletes, and for that matter everyone else in our world (and in the D&D world), takes 10 on all their checks, with variances being minute in scale instead of grand. For example, a world-class long-jumper with a +19 on their skill check (3.0 rules), which represents the upper end of optimization for a 5th-level Expert, simply takes 10, approaches world-record lengths, and then rolls on a percentage chart for the minute details.

All told, I would not consider this much of a stretch to make: after all, DCs are scaled such that the average thing that an average thing can do without a significant risk of failure caps at 10 (trivial and basic things which the average person simply doesn't fail at unless there is some deficiency, like an attribute penalty, flaw or trait that weighs against them). NPCs are assumed to bring home a static amount of money based on their accomplishment of a fixed DC representing an "average" days' work (instead of the wild levels of variance that a 1-20 fluctuation might cause), average people hear and see average things appropriate their checks, and so on. This is especially true in the real world; variance just doesn't exist off-screen. In fact, you might argue that such variance only exists in the world of the PCs, in order to create the element of risk that comes from the chance of failure. While some things, perhaps, can be represented by repeated tries with an element of luck (body-checking a padlocked door, for example), for the most part, actions ranging from the everyday to the extraordinary can be best represented by a flat 10 + whatever modifier you have (and if you adopt this rule for Olympic jumpers, what you have is a group of 5th-level Experts representing the pinnacle of human perfection that, when optimized, approach world records, with some small degree of variance, which much closer reflects the real-world results.

[Ashtagon]

ok, my bad on not noting that of the NPC classes, only the expert can have both Jump and Tumble as class skills. So I guess we are stuck with only 3% of the population being able to gain the synergy bonus.

And again, my bad for forgetting the record is 29.36 (or 29.49) feet. Let's round it to 30 feet for the rest of this discussion.

Let's try building an Olympic long jumper off a 1st level commoner now...

+4 skill ranks
+4 18 Strength
+4 Run feat (or +0 and +25% to total distance instead under 3.0e)
+3 Skill Focus feat

Aside: Note that any class can meet this if they have the right class skill, since I'm not using skill synergy. If necessary, we can halve the skill rank bonus to +2, so that class literally is not a restriction at all (for this or any arbitrary random skill). That'll increase the die roll required to break the long jump record by two pips, but still within the bounds of mathematical possibility.

That's +15 under 3.5e, or +11 under 3.0e. Assuming 3d6 in order for character generation, 0.5% (1 in 216) of the 1st level population people can be potential world record breakers, provided they pick the right feats.

To beat the world record he needs to jump 30 feet. Under 3.5e, that means he needs to roll 15+. I established upthread that an Olympic winner probably rolled a 17+ on his record breaking skill check. So this 1st level commoner is better than our world class athletes.

And under 3.0e? He needs to hit a DC of 29 to make a long jump of 30 feet. (DC 29 running long jump normally means a jump of 24 feet, then add 25% for the Run feat, giving 30 feet total). He only has a +11 on his check, so he needs to roll 18+ to break the world record. Slightly harder than under 3.5e rules, but still in with a decent chance of breaking the record.

You claimed that Olympians take 10 and then argue the toss on fractions. That means taking 10, he hit DC 30 (3.5e) or DC 29 (3.0e). My 1st level commoner will break the world record 15-20% of the time.

But the take 10 rules assume you are not in a high-stress situation (you're allowed to take 10 in high-stress situations by RAW). I would think that having the eyes of the world watching you jump, trying to break the world's record, counts as high stress.

[Lonely Tylenol]

ok, my bad on not noting that of the NPC classes, only the expert can have both Jump and Tumble as class skills. So I guess we are stuck with only 3% of the population being able to gain the synergy bonus.

It's fine. It's not like my calculations were without errors. :smallsmile:


And again, my bad for forgetting the record is 29.36 (or 29.49) feet. Let's round it to 30 feet for the rest of this discussion.

OK, works for me.


Let's try building an Olympic long jumper off a 1st level commoner now...

+4 skill ranks
+4 18 Strength
+4 Run feat (or +0 and +25% to total distance instead under 3.0e)
+3 Skill Focus feat

Aside: Note that any class can meet this if they have the right class skill, since I'm not using skill synergy. If necessary, we can halve the skill rank bonus to +2, so that class literally is not a restriction at all (for this or any arbitrary random skill). That'll increase the die roll required to break the long jump record by two pips, but still within the bounds of mathematical possibility.

That's +15 under 3.5e, or +11 under 3.0e. Assuming 3d6 in order for character generation, 0.5% (1 in 216) of the 1st level population people can be potential world record breakers, provided they pick the right feats.

To beat the world record he needs to jump 30 feet. Under 3.5e, that means he needs to roll 15+. I established upthread that an Olympic winner probably rolled a 17+ on his record breaking skill check. So this 1st level commoner is better than our world class athletes.

And under 3.0e? He needs to hit a DC of 29 to make a long jump of 30 feet. (DC 29 running long jump normally means a jump of 24 feet, then add 25% for the Run feat, giving 30 feet total). He only has a +11 on his check, so he needs to roll 18+ to break the world record. Slightly harder than under 3.5e rules, but still in with a decent chance of breaking the record.

I have no counter-argument for this; working within the confines of a 1d20 skill check, an optimized level 1 jumper can break the Olympic world record. Well done.


You claimed that Olympians take 10 and then argue the toss on fractions. That means taking 10, he hit DC 30 (3.5e) or DC 29 (3.0e). My 1st level commoner will break the world record 15-20% of the time.

To be more precise, I argued that everyone takes 10 and then works out the minute variations. That means that an optimized level 1 Commoner can roll a natural 20 and beat an equally optimized level 5 Expert, and does at least some of the time in your world, but always loses by about the same amount in mine (since both are always taking 10 with minute variations). That means that an Olympic-ready long-distance jumper with a +19 on his Jump check (plus the Run feat in 3.0) doesn't jump from 18.75 feet ([19+1-5]*1.25) to 42.5 feet ([19+20-5]*1.25), but instead consistently jumps about 30 feet ([19+10-5]*1.25) and then splits hairs on the details. This might be more apparent by your jumper quite often falling to his death when jumping over a 25-foot chasm, even when limbered up and given a running start, while mine is consistently able to cross the 25-foot chasm (which isn't an incredible feat for an olympic jumper). A 1st-level Commoner with no feats, skill ranks or ability bonuses is consistently able to jump a 5-foot chasm with a running start, but nothing more (except, I suppose, by 3.5 standards, where they can consistently jump a 10-foot chasm with a running start).