Monk + Swift Scion?

[Quirken]

Swift Scion looks pretty sweet. Are there any official entry requirements for unarmed attacks? I'll be a level 17 monk with a vow of poverty, so perhaps my fists count as legendary :P

On a serious note, though, I'm not trying to get out of entry requirements. They're just... entirely left to the imagination, as far as I can tell. There's only two sample legendary weapons in the book...

[eggs]

With VoP, the class shouldn't do anything (Legendary weapons are magic items, which VoP forbids), but this is something you should probably talk to your DM about - both VoP and Swift Scion are very weak; you should be able to work out a way to combine them, and still not be overpowering in any sense (you'll probably even want to go overboard with the legendary weapon's powers, just to keep up).

The Legendary weapon system in UA is really hazy as to what it actually does, and it basically comes down to homebrew, so this is again something you'll want to bring up with your DM/group. The system was revisited in more detail in the Weapons of Legacy book, but the system there was terrible for other reasons.

[Quirken]

I've seen a lot of people claim that VoP is very weak. I get that lots of DM's give better loot than they're supposed to for level, and so on. (i've seen a comparison of what it'd take in magic items to get the same thing as VoP, and the cost is pretty close for what it gives, based on wealth by char level table)

In this case, this is actually a cohort/special mount, and giving the mount a bunch of magic items just feels weird in an RP sense. In that context, do you still think it's weak?

I imagine it would hurt the most in epic levels, where VoP ceases to add new benefits at all.

[tyckspoon]

VoP is weak compared to intelligent use of standard Wealth By Level. That's not 'giving out better treasure than they're supposed to'; that is exactly the level of treasure you're expected to have (and roughly the amount of treasure you will have if your DM rolls all his encounter treasure randomly, plus a bit of headroom for expendables/taking a loss on useless junk.)

On a cohort or mount, however, it's pretty reasonable; it gives you a way to give your helper some nearly-level-appropriate bonuses without forcing you to weaken both of you by splitting your own wealth. Since your cohort is likely equipped with at best the much lower NPC wealth guidelines or at worst *nothing* and is being geared entirely out of your own pocket (and I'm guessing most DMs don't think to provide an extra treasure share to help cover this, or figure the Cohort is enough advantage that no extra treasure is required) the Vow can be a pretty good deal *for the Cohort.*

[eggs]

I've seen a lot of people claim that VoP is very weak. I get that lots of DM's give better loot than they're supposed to for level, and so on. (i've seen a comparison of what it'd take in magic items to get the same thing as VoP, and the cost is pretty close for what it gives, based on wealth by char level table)
The problem isn't how much VoP's benefits would cost; it's what else could be obtained for VoP's price tag. The 'purchases' made by VoP are rigid and typically inefficient, failing to tailor to characters' needs in the way that WBL can.

The main problems for a Monk are mobility, flight and versatility - where noncasters often have to rely on items to make full attacks while moving or to affect flying/climbing/incorporeal enemies at all. By CR 11, about half the monsters in the SRD have some form of flight or climb speed. Those are creatures that a VoP monk cannot even touch.

The other major weakness is that magic items are typically the one way a Fighter or Monk can get around battlefield control-based shutdowns like Web or Wall of X. Minor teleportation items are relatively cheap, but VoP doesn't provide a method of escape until FoM at ECL 14.

So when building a Legacy Item(or non-item, depending on how you're treating Swift Scion), those are the main issues you're going to want to address - a reliable means of flight (and other movement modes), a reliable escape from easy shut-downs from casters (both in terms of tactical movement, and blanket protection effects like Death Ward or Mind Blank), and a way of punching through resistances that aren't addressed by VoP (such as special materials, incorporeality, and invisibility). Slathering the abilities on heavy is unlikely to break anything at all.

[Quirken]

The main problems for a Monk are mobility, flight and versatility - where noncasters often have to rely on items to make full attacks while moving or to affect flying/climbing/incorporeal enemies at all. By CR 11, about half the monsters in the SRD have some form of flight or climb speed. Those are creatures that a VoP monk cannot even touch.

Well, my monk-cohort-special mount has pounce, and my rider can cast fly and enlarge person. (He has access to 5th level ranger, paladin, and wizard spells). Perhaps not quite as good, but it comes close, no?


The other major weakness is that magic items are typically the one way a Fighter or Monk can get around battlefield control-based shutdowns like Web or Wall of X. Minor teleportation items are relatively cheap, but VoP doesn't provide a method of escape until FoM at ECL 14.

True, but we're starting at 17.


So when building a Legacy Item(or non-item, depending on how you're treating Swift Scion), those are the main issues you're going to want to address - a reliable means of flight (and other movement modes), a reliable escape from easy shut-downs from casters (both in terms of tactical movement, and blanket protection effects like Death Ward or Mind Blank), and a way of punching through resistances that aren't addressed by VoP (such as special materials, incorporeality, and invisibility). Slathering the abilities on heavy is unlikely to break anything at all.

I looked at swift scion more closely... you guys are right, it is pretty weak. That 2 level dip would only be worth it if I were doing heavy multiclassing, which I'm not. I'll look into specializing my rider spell list for addressing those issues.

Thanks!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

True, but we're starting at 17.

That means that your character is sitting at 340,000 GP. Assuming your cohort is 15th level and gets even NPC WBL, he'd have 100,000 GP to spend on items.

I'm not recommending you automatically give your NPC WBL, but since the game is starting at 17th level, you definitely need to talk to your DM about how much each character gets, cohorts included.