Epic Fixes/Alternatives to Epic?

[Coidzor]

So I know about E6 which trades the problem of getting levels and having the system break completely as one levels up after level 6 until it runs into the problem of having so many feats that the system starts to break down, but I haven't really heard of anything else before that attempts to fix the post-20 portion of the game so that it's actually somewhat playable beyond individual flailing by house-ruling DMs.

So I was curious if there were any serious homebrew projects that embarked upon it and they just were never mentioned or if it's like rebalancing the published spells and too much work for anyone to actually want to do so they did things like make Legend or more general system fixes that kept the idea of level caps?

[AmberVael]

Fixing epic would be... hard. Really hard.

See, as it is, epic doesn't really change all that much. If you drop epic spellcasting, epic feats, and even epic magic items, you frankly don't lose much material of importance. I've never used epic spellcasting in any of my games, and I can't remember buying an epic magic item either. I've used epic feats, but there are only one or two that are real game changers.

The real problem of epic is abundance of pre-epic material. You can combine things that would be harder to gain access to, can pick up bucket loads of magic items and feats and on and on. The things you have access to doesn't change, just how many of them you have.

Even if you spent years trying to balance all 3.5 material, I'm not convinced it would help. There's still too much possibility for people to end up all over the spectrum in terms of power, numbers, and flexibility.

So, if you wanted to fix epic, you'd basically have to create an entirely new system to progress characters beyond the level 20 point, and even that might not fix things.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, I was suspecting it was something along those lines. :/

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You could just do E20. It's lazy, but, well, it helps somewhat with the issues with Epic.

[Cieyrin]

Immortal's Handbook: Ascension is pretty close to a homebrew attempt at an Epic Alternative, considering Mongoose published it. Can't actually say how well it actually worked.

[Calanon]

Immortal's Handbook: Ascension is pretty close to a homebrew attempt at an Epic Alternative, considering Mongoose published it. Can't actually say how well it actually worked.

Nobody ever takes the Immortal's Handbook seriously... :smallconfused:

I mean... after some point it stops meaning anything even in an E6 game...

[Tvtyrant]

I have thought about it before, and the closest approximation to a solution I found was:

Epic casting is replaced with adding rider spells; you get a rider slot every 5 levels. Every time you cast a spell the spell you have prepped in the rider slot is cast automatically, and it never gets used up. You start with a first level rider slot at level 21, a second level rider slot at level 25, etc. If you ever got to level 45 you would cast 10 spells every time you cast a spell, and one of each spell level.

Mundane characters gain an additional +1 to an ability score of their choice every single level. Half-casters get +1 every other level.

Mundanes get a none-epic minor artifact of their choice at level 25, a major none-epic artifact at level 30, a minor epic artifact at 35, and a major epic artifact at level 40.

[AmberVael]

You could just do E20. It's lazy, but, well, it helps somewhat with the issues with Epic.

It would slow the process down, I'd agree, but I think the issues really set in before epic even starts... still, cutting out the addition of class levels would certainly help. This is an option I've vaguely considered before.


I have thought about it before, and the closest approximation to a solution I found was:

Epic casting is replaced with adding rider spells; you get a rider slot every 5 levels. Every time you cast a spell the spell you have prepped in the rider slot is cast automatically, and it never gets used up. You start with a first level rider slot at level 21, a second level rider slot at level 25, etc. If you ever got to level 45 you would cast 10 spells every time you cast a spell, and one of each spell level.

Mundane characters gain an additional +1 to an ability score of their choice every single level. Half-casters get +1 every other level.

Mundanes get a none-epic minor artifact of their choice at level 25, a major none-epic artifact at level 30, a minor epic artifact at 35, and a major epic artifact at level 40.

So... your solution the glut of options, power, and excessive numerical range in epic play is to give people more stuff, including stuff that are more plot devices than serious, balanced mechanics?

Not only does this not put mundane characters anywhere near the level of an epic caster, it also forces the DM to attempt to calculate the incalculable by adding artifacts into the equation.

Oh, and the 'rider' thing is a really, really, really bad idea. Not only do you get spells with infinite castings, but spells with infinite castings with no action costs. And more than one! Completely absurd, don't do this.

[Acanous]

Deities and Demigods is pretty functional post-20. Most of the other epic stuff isn't.

[Tvtyrant]

Oh, and the 'rider' thing is a really, really, really bad idea. Not only do you get spells with infinite castings, but spells with infinite castings with no action costs. And more than one! Completely absurd, don't do this.
....Do you happen to think Warlocks are broken? An infinite casting of a single first level spell at level 21 is barely useful, and by the levels where you are getting actually potent spells you already likely have
Multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) andRings of Epic Wizadry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#epicWizardry), and are facing things like Gibbering Orbs. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm)
Epic levels are all about action economy abuse, and my suggestions are hardly more broken than anything already existing in pre-epic. If your problem is with the bloat of epic, you would need to cut pre-epic out entirely in order to remove it, since you have Craft: Contingency and numerous other abuses on the table from the get go.

[AmberVael]

The least of the things you could do with an infinite, free action 1st level spell rider would be to prepare True Casting or True Strike with it. +10 to all SR checks or +20 to all attack rolls... still, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

For one, ever rider spell can now be an immediate action, just by casting feather fall. All spellcasters get Abrupt Jaunt, or can counter things by shooting people in the face whenever they want. (Try using Blockade to get complete cover against everything- it's like Wings of Cover, except one level lower, and you get to use it about as much as you want). Plus, by use of riders and other action economy things (like multispell), you basically double your spell output.

Also, you can use very low level spells to get far better effects. Cast sonic snap to shoot off all your riders at once! Why not? I'm sure someone can find some low level spells worth spamming outside combat.

And frankly, casters don't need the boost. As you said, they can already break the action economy ten ways at a time, they don't need another one, particularly one with so few limits. Rip out epic spellcasting, don't replace it, don't give spellcasters more than they already have. Better yet, yank out multispell too. Let them make do with quicken spell, contingency, celerity, time stop, and arcane fusion. Somehow, I think they'll manage.

[Tvtyrant]

It isn't about whether casters need the support or not, it is about providing incentives so you feel like you are progressing in some way. Short of providing an endless row of new spells with ever more broken effects (which is what pre-epic does, and epic as written attempts to do), making more spells a turn is the most effective way of doing that.

One thing you could do to avoid that might be to kill the D&D classes all together in Epic, and replace them with specifically epic classes. However you would still need to provide a way for each of these classes to feel unique and like it is progressing.

[Acanous]

Tyrant, I think you've hit on something there. Epic Classes would rebalance epic. Just say Non-Epic classes don't get Epic feats/bonuses past 20, but epic classes do. There'd be a lot to balance, but it's better than current.

[Emperor Tippy]

What I do is let the character gestalt (at least when I don't want to play the absurdness that is epic).

Let's say you reach level 20 as a Wiz/Incantatrix/Archmage. Then you get level 21 and become a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 // Warblade 1 (for example).

Your saves, BAB, skills, Health, etc. get the improvements. Say you eventually reach Warblade 20, well at your next level up you could be a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 // Warblade 20 // Factotum 1.

XP to level up is capped at level 20 (basically, you level up, your XP total reverts back to what it was when you just turned level 20 and you get to add in your new class).

Yes, doing this adds book keeping and can get to be a bit of a hassle but compared to Epic it's a minor problem and the character does become noticeably more powerful without really becoming exponentially so.

Oh, and you still get another Attribute point every 4 "level"s.

Hmm, oh and you can PRC the other gestalt bits just fine.

Power wise and play wise it works fine.

[Cieyrin]

What I do is let the character gestalt (at least when I don't want to play the absurdness that is epic).

Let's say you reach level 20 as a Wiz/Incantatrix/Archmage. Then you get level 21 and become a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 // Warblade 1 (for example).

Your saves, BAB, skills, Health, etc. get the improvements. Say you eventually reach Warblade 20, well at your next level up you could be a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 // Warblade 20 // Factotum 1.

XP to level up is capped at level 20 (basically, you level up, your XP total reverts back to what it was when you just turned level 20 and you get to add in your new class).

Yes, doing this adds book keeping and can get to be a bit of a hassle but compared to Epic it's a minor problem and the character does become noticeably more powerful without really becoming exponentially so.

Oh, and you still get another Attribute point every 4 "level"s.

Hmm, oh and you can PRC the other gestalt bits just fine.

Power wise and play wise it works fine.

So basically bringing back 2nd Ed Dual Classing but applying it across the board? Hmm, I'll have to contemplate that a bit...

[Duke of URL]

Considering that D&D 3.5 is pretty broken at the mid-teens, there's not much you can do to "fix" epic play.

To make it less obscene, however, the major thing that needs to be done is to eliminate Epic Spellcasting. Most other epic feats are relatively tame, considering the pre-requisites and the relative power level.

The other thing I'd do is to cap caster level at 20 (from classes, at least... CL bonuses not from class levels should still allow CL to exceed 20).

Alternatively, you can do an E20 approach, as noted above, rather than allow them to continue taking classes.

[Straybow]

Why does the ordinary progression have to stop at 20? Just keep going with plain old base d20 stuff. No epic feats or spells necessary.

[Coidzor]

What I do is let the character gestalt (at least when I don't want to play the absurdness that is epic).

Let's say you reach level 20 as a Wiz/Incantatrix/Archmage. Then you get level 21 and become a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 // Warblade 1 (for example).

Your saves, BAB, skills, Health, etc. get the improvements. Say you eventually reach Warblade 20, well at your next level up you could be a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 // Warblade 20 // Factotum 1.

XP to level up is capped at level 20 (basically, you level up, your XP total reverts back to what it was when you just turned level 20 and you get to add in your new class).

Yes, doing this adds book keeping and can get to be a bit of a hassle but compared to Epic it's a minor problem and the character does become noticeably more powerful without really becoming exponentially so.

Oh, and you still get another Attribute point every 4 "level"s.

Hmm, oh and you can PRC the other gestalt bits just fine.

Power wise and play wise it works fine.

I must admit, I had considered something like that for an E8 or E10 sort of game, or possibly staggered leveling where you gained level 7 on one end of the gestalt and then gained level 7 on the other end and then started working on level 8...

It's kind of intriguing, but I never could place my finger on why I found it to be so...