A final irony with Redcloak and Xykon?

[Alex Warlorn]

I've had this stirring around in my head since Redcloak gave his speech that Undead are by definition tools to be used and he simply uses different methods to use Xykon.

Now we know that Xykon has no logical reason to think Redcloak will betray him THAT WAY, that the ritual itself is the betrayal, though it's doubtful Xykon doesn't know that Redcloak intends to dispose of him once the ritual is complete.

I won't spoil any particular event in Start of Darkness, but
Xykon HAS used mental magic to prepare for Redcloak inevitable betrayal before.

And given what the purpose of Redcloak's people supposedly is, though we only have the Dark One's word on that.

I can imagine Xykon having placed geass' on various members of Redcloak's staff, which we've seen only have the swirlie eyes when active like when Xykon placed a geass on Monster-San .

Redcloak likely found what he thought was all of them, and removed them . . . then it turns out Xykon placed geasses on EVERY SINGLE GOBLIN WITH THEM (or other non-undead grunts).

At this point, the final irony comes in, and Xykon delivers HIS speech on how it's GOBLINS who exist just to be used and manipulated and disposed of. Saying that in the end, they're no better than the undead (intelligent or mindless) Redcloak claims are just robots.

While Redcloak has shown had deathly shrewd he's become, he's also become too comfortable IMHO on his 'hold' on Xykon. As a evil cleric, he's USED to undead dancing to his tune with one quick spell. The idea of Undead NOT being controllable is outside of his psyche's acceptance of what is reality.

[Winter]

The idea has merit, but two problems.

A) Xykon cannot bewitch that many Goblins. You can go around that by having only bewitch the head-goblins Redcloak surrounds himself on a usual basis.

B) They travel light. So from now on, there won't be Goblins with Team Evil at this and the next gate.

[LadyEowyn]

I don't know if it will turn out precisely that way, but Redcloak's speech on how the undead are just tools, not people was way too close to people's typical views of goblins (not people, just XP fodder) for his assumption not to come back to bite him in some way.

The question of who gets to be considered people and who doesn't (goblins, dragons, undead) is very much at the heart of this comic, so I don't think there's any chance of Redcloak's view of the undead not being significant in future. Though I'd expect it to be something resulting from an undead other than Xykon developing something like volition and messing up Redcloak's plans.

[martianmister]

But undeads are not people...

[Winter]

But undeads are not people...

... so what are they instead? Soylent Green? :smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

That... sounds like a highly contrived scenario. While Redcloak's speech on how undead are just tools is likely to come back to bite him in the rear, Xykon putting a geas on every single goblin is very unlikely and far from his usual modus operandi.

[ZLotMors]

According to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) Xykon's 4th level spells (the same level as Quest/Geas) are Animate Dead, Gre[indistinct]y (most likely Greater Invisibility, which he has used before), Resilient Sphere, Sto[indistinct] (most likely Stone Shape)

I think one of the last things Rich said about the rules was that he only looks there to see what abilities any particular character might have, and I think the fact that he drew a list of Xykon's spells means he intends Xykon not to have Geas.
I'm not sure how else he can magically control a large number of goblins. Here really doesn't even care about them. Goblins seem to be as important to him as money is to a certain culture in our world. Throw enough of it at a problem and the problem will disappear.

[Math_Mage]

There's no opportunity (yet) for Xykon to do something like this. No minions around. And no goblins that seem to be high enough level to pose a serious challenge to Redcloak.

More to the point, why would Xykon need to do that? He's an epic-level blaster/debuffer, not a mind-control specialist.

[Winter]

If he wants to, Xykon can easily cast Geas from a scroll. The big question is: does he want to?

[Steward]

I don't really see Xykon having the time to do that to Redcloak's inner circle. From a scroll, the caster level for geas/quest would be limited to 11, right? That means he has to reapply the control every eleven days which Redcloak would eventually notice, right?

[Winter]

From a scroll, the caster level for geas/quest would be limited to 11, right? That means he has to reapply the control every eleven days which Redcloak would eventually notice, right?

According to the rules, yes. According to Rich Burlew? Who knows?

If Rich followed the Rules the stuff shown in SoD (you know what I mean if you read it) would have been pointless. So it's likely Rich does not follow the rules here if they stand in the way.

[Kish]

There is no way Xykon would go to that much trouble just to rub Redcloak's nose in having once said something offensive about undead.

His style is more, "I'm just a weapon that you made and aim at other people, really? Oh well. All your goblins are (Hellball) dead now, so you'd better work on your aiming."

[Steward]

According to the rules, yes. According to Rich Burlew? Who knows?

If Rich followed the Rules the stuff shown in SoD (you know what I mean if you read it) would have been pointless. So it's likely Rich does not follow the rules here if they stand in the way.

That's true, but let's set aside the rules for now and focus on the characters. Redcloak is a pretty sharp, perceptive guy, right? Some might even call him wise. Don't you think he would scrutinize his inner circle to make sure that they haven't been subverted, either by Xykon or by one of their mutual enemies? Geas/quest is pretty subtle though, so he might get away with it.

[Winter]

As I said, the real question is if Xykon even wants that control. I have not answered that for me, so I do it now: No, he won't. He does not consider goblins important enough to somehow use them for something other than sacrifcing them for fun or some gain.

Also, if he was going to bewitch someone.... why not right away get some more powerful version of geas and somehow directly bewitch Redcloak? I doubt he's going to do anything beyond he already did (on screen).

I also doubt he considers Redcloak to be a real threat. Redcloak probably only resides within the "possible annoyance" drawer (this estimate could be wrong, but I would be surprised if Xykon considered him to be more dangerous than that).

[B. Dandelion]

I think the scenario the OP describes misses the mark as it's out to expose a hypocrisy the comic itself doesn't evidence. The purpose of Redcloak's speech to Tsukiko was to outline how very wrong her position was, so he directly contrasts his own opinion. Tsukiko believes the undead are people (exist to be loved) where Redcloak thinks they are things (exist to be controlled). That's hypocritical... if goblins and the undead are in fact equivalent. For that to be the case, either both goblins and the undead are things, or both of them deserve personhood status and shouldn't be discriminated against.

But all the available evidence says otherwise. OOTS is not down with racism and discrimination, Rich has made that very clear. Some goblins are good, some are evil. Killing them for being goblins is evil. The portrayal of the undead, however, has been unrelentingly negative. If we're to accept that they, just like goblins, are unfairly persecuted, we must by extension accept that Tsukiko was on to something. If that's the case the comic sure picked one strange way to show it. Fundamentally, goblins and humans are not very different, they're capable of all of the same emotions and actions. By contrast the undead are radically different, animated corpses given a semblance of life powered entirely by negative magic. The comic often uses their creation as a shorthand way to show or emphasize the evilness of the person responsible. Big difference there.

For that matter I don't think that scene showed that Redcloak has gotten complacent in his ability to control Xykon. When Tsukiko blurts that Xykon will kill Redcloak for executing her, his response isn't to carelessly dismiss that possibility. Rather, he outright admits it might happen, but goes on to say that is a risk he's willing to take since the alternative is an even bigger danger. His awareness of that risk was the only thing that forestalled him from killing her much sooner. Again, "the undead are tools" directly contrasts "the undead are people," and doesn't necessarily imply "...and I'm their rightful master."

Finally, Redcloak's real crimes are against his own people, not the undead. I think if he's going to get an ironically appropriate comeuppance, it'll be on those grounds, and probably at the hands of someone he really has wronged by knowingly leading so many goblins to their deaths. I can get outraged on their behalf. I'm totally not outraged on Xykon's -- really, Redcloak can't knife him in the back fast enough for my taste.

[Steward]

As I said, the real question is if Xykon even wants that control. I have not answered that for me, so I do it now: No, he won't. He does not consider goblins important enough to somehow use them for something other than sacrifcing them for fun or some gain.

Also, if he was going to bewitch someone.... why not right away get some more powerful version of geas and somehow directly bewitch Redcloak? I doubt he's going to do anything beyond he already did (on screen).

I also doubt he considers Redcloak to be a real threat. Redcloak probably only resides within the "possible annoyance" drawer (this estimate could be wrong, but I would be surprised if Xykon considered him to be more dangerous than that).

I agree with you. It just isn't Xykon's style. The actual spell or any reasonable modification of it is too subtle for his tastes, and using it from a scroll against Redcloak would be pointless as well as weird (Redcloak's caster level is high enough that he can break the spell unless Xykon casts it directly on him; a scroll won't work).

[Fish]

Manipulating crowds would be a job for someone with a high Charisma score, like a sorcerer or ... well, Xykon. Why would he use magic?

[Vahir]

I've been thinking. Could Xykon have learned his lesson, and be pulling an IknowyouknowIknow (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYouKnowIKnow) here? In that he's letting Redcloak think he's manipulating him, only to betray RC at the last minute of the ritual.

[B. Dandelion]

I've been thinking. Could Xykon have learned his lesson, and be pulling an IknowyouknowIknow (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYouKnowIKnow) here? In that he's letting Redcloak think he's manipulating him, only to betray RC at the last minute of the ritual.

I think "your deception isn't working but I'm playing dumb" is just regular "I know." If Xykon knew Redcloak were lying, and Redcloak KNEW Xykon wasn't fooled either, it'd be "you know I know," where Xykon's pretending he doesn't know and Redcloak's pretending he thinks the deception worked, so Xykon thinks he's ahead for having a counter scheme, but Redcloak has a counter-counter scheme. At the "I Know You Know I Know" level, the scheme wouldn't be working, Redcloak would know it wasn't working, and Xykon would know Redcloak knew and had some scheme in place, so he was prepared to counter the counter-counter.

I definitely don't think Xykon would get that byzantine about things. But could he just be playing dumb? Maybe, but the big question about that would be -- why? Xykon stands to gain exactly nothing in Redcloak's grand plan, and there's been no indication thus far he could regain some advantage by playing him. He might not be completely lulled, but either he's being fooled to some degree or has access to some incredibly important information that hasn't been hinted at yet. But if Xykon knew so little about the Ritual and the Snarl that he tried to enlist Tsukiko's help in getting more information, what are the odds he's sitting on something like that?

[denthor]

Red cloak is betraying Xykon from the start. Xykon wants to take over the world some of his best cups of coffee has happened on this world.

Red Cloak has always been a loyal cleric to the dark one. Which means the snarl will in the end go to the dark one as a weapon to be used against all the other gods.

Xykon gets nothing but does his part to help.

[Cranica]

Huh. Now THAT would be a cool epic spell - Mass Geas.

[Winter]

Xykon gets nothing but does his part to help.

While this is true, Xykon already got Lichdom from the entire thing (for good an bad). No matter what The Dark One does after this thing here, Xykon in principle, has all of eternity to erect empires and rule people.

The big joke is Xykon does not need The Plan if he really wanted to rule the planet or a large part of it, he could go about in the conventional way and if he hid his phylactery well, he might even have as many attemps as he wishes to.
"Back then" he needed The Plan because he was human, was not as powerful as he is now, he had a time limit (age) and only one life to use up. Things are very different as Lich and with the additional levels gained since he initially met Redcloak.

[Jay R]

Redcloak likely found what he thought was all of them, and removed them . . . then it turns out Xykon placed geasses on EVERY SINGLE GOBLIN WITH THEM (or other non-undead grunts).

At this point, the final irony comes in, and Xykon delivers HIS speech on how it's GOBLINS who exist just to be used and manipulated and disposed of. Saying that in the end, they're no better than the undead (intelligent or mindless) Redcloak claims are just robots.

Xykon doesn't need to geas goblins for that. He's already shown that he thinks they exist just to be used and manipulated and disposed of.

Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html)

[Yora]

I don't really see Xykon having the time to do that to Redcloak's inner circle. From a scroll, the caster level for geas/quest would be limited to 11, right? That means he has to reapply the control every eleven days which Redcloak would eventually notice, right?
No, that's just the cheapest one one can get. For more money, you can get one with any caster level you like.

[phantomreader42]

But undeads are not people...

At the very least most of them WERE people...

[martianmister]

At the very least most of them WERE people...

Exactly. :smallcool: