Belkar will die in next 10 strips.

[homeosapiens]

Here we have impossible fight to win, and he needs to die soon. I guess he'll die in this fight and nobody will take time to ressurect him, because Team Evil is going to show up sooner than expected as well, maybe even midfight.

[Winter]

I'm not sure it'll be the next 10, but I'd take the bet for the next 20 (when Team Evil shows up).

[martianmister]

I think he's already dead. (8 percent? Enough for him. :smalltongue:)

[Winter]

Too anti-climatic. Belkar will probably die in this arc, maybe even in this fight but he'll not go without his "big scene". Having him die off-screen in such a surprise-attack would be kindoff lame.

Like how all those characters died in that fight int the last Harry Potter book. We know what was the author's intention behind that but it's still somewhat lame.

[ThePhantasm]

The Linear Guild isn't awesome enough to kill Belkar, IMHO. It needs to be either Team Evil or V. He is, after all, one of the protagonists.

The LG is just the appetizer to the main course. And Tarquin, though he has a certain cool factor, is highly overrated on this board as a villain and I have no doubt he'll be squashed by Xykon.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm going to say within 17 strips. Just a hunch.

[blackspeeker]

Tarquin, though he has a certain cool factor, is highly overrated on this board as a villain and I have no doubt he'll be squashed by Xykon.

I like to think that much like Ms. Starshine, Tarquin knows a fight his class (whatever it is) wasn't designed for.

[Rorrik]

If Belkar dies it will only be because of highly uncharacteristic risking of his own neck to fight off the entire Linear Guild, he'd take at least two down with him. I think we're looking at a slightly longer haul for the Belkster.

[Kish]

I think he's already dead. (8 percent? Enough for him. :smalltongue:)
8% chance that any of the Order would die.

Something lower, for each individual member of the Order.

The chance that Belkar, specifically, would die is definitely less than the chance of Vaarsuvius specifically dying, and may well be less than the chance of Durkon or Elan specifically dying.

[OPM]

Actually, that just makes me expect that he would survive somehow. That said, I wouldn't put it past Rich to give some timeline like that to create suspense. But I'll only believe it when he says it. What I see happening is this:


I think that Belkar dies by the hand of Darth V, but we haven't seen V taken over yet. I predict that the fiends take over V pretty soon to find the gate while keeping everyone else busy.

All this guilt will probably make V self-destructive and V will probably want to sacrifice themselves, but I figure on Durkon actually doing it. Hopefully that sets up some kind of redemption-quest plotline for V with the support of the rest of the Order to play out at the last gate. Or else V falls to the dark side entirely, joins the bad guys in trying to remake the world and usurping Xykon's place with the possibility of a last-minute face-heel turn at the last gate.

At least, those are the most epic ideas I can come up with. Rich probably has some nifty surprises for us, so it will be interesting to see.

[Crisis21]

Personally, I think Belkar's death is going to occur during some humongous snafu that rivals the Azure City war for sheer lethality potential.

I also predict that Durkon is going to die soon, possibly before Belkar. Remember that he has two prophecies on him. One that he will return home posthumously. The other that when he next returns home he will "bring death and destruction for us all". His home is in the northern lands, probably near Kraagor's gate and I imagine that the Order would return his body to the dwarves with Xykon or some other villain following right behind them.

[Umberhulk]

And we all know that Redcloak will kill Durkon.

[ThePhantasm]

And we all know that Redcloak will kill Durkon.

Wait. . . we do?

[Winter]

And we all know that Redcloak will kill Durkon.

I don't. I rather expect it to be Malack but I'm far from knowing that. A lot can (and will) happen until Durkon dies.

[fergo]

The Giant has said that he has plans for Durkon's characterisation, which I doubt will happen after he dies. On the other hand, if the Order are going to be heading to Kraagor's gate next... :smallconfused:

I hope not, anyways :smallfrown:. I like the dwarf, I don't want him to die yet :smalltongue:.

As for Belkar... well, I'd be sad to see him go, too, but the signs seem to be pointing in the direction of him kicking the bucket pretty soon. Still, I doubt it'll be in the next ten strips--unless he dies right at the start of the upcoming fight, which would be a bit of a letdown.

[Winter]

The Giant has said that he has plans for Durkon's characterisation, which I doubt will happen after he dies. On the other hand, if the Order are going to be heading to Kraagor's gate next... :smallconfused:

I wil happen after he dies. This here is Elan's story and I doubt Rich will add Durkon-stuff at the end of the arc where Team Evil, the LG (with Tarquin) and the Order meets, where we somehow have to resolve Ian Starshine and whatnot.
Adding Durkon to the mix would overload it all a tad.

Durkon Dies -> Order is out of cleric -> Story Arc at Girard's Gate ends -> The order travels to the dwarven lands (to the next gate), carrying Durkon's Body with them -> Durkon gets resurrected -> Stuff happens.

[vrellum]

I don't think the vitriolic blast could possibly kill an unwounded Belkar. However, the 8% number is almost surely wrong. V would almost certainly be killed by it. He is a wizard with either no con bonus or a con penalty. Either way he'd most likely hit -10 if he was in the AoE. So unless the flying kobold knew V wasn't there, he just made up the number (perhaps to appease Malak, perhaps because Rich didn't bother with the math). Elan too has a very good chance off dying. Haley might, don't remember if there is a save for the initial damage.

[Winter]

perhaps because Rich didn't bother with the math).

Very, very likely this.

[Howler Dagger]

I'm going to bet that Durkon dies sometime during the fight, causing Malack to turn against the Guild. The Order wins and Malack raises Durkon, and they go to the dwarven lands. Malack comes with them (perhaop fulfilling "bringing death and destruction with him" as Nergal is god of both (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)) and they have a climatic battle in which Belkar dies.

[vrellum]

Very, very likely this.

I agree. The blast didn't kill anyone, that is all that matters, not the percentage.

[Kish]

The chances that Rich actually did math before having Kilkil say there was an 8% chance the Vitriolic Sphere had killed any of the Order are negligible to nonexistent.

However, it takes a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) to kill Vaarsuvius.

[Oscredwin]

Kilkil didn't know that much about the OotS. All she knows is that 8% is either an unbuffed wizard/bard failed his/her save, or that there was someone who was buffed but took damage earlier that day which hadn't been healed, and that person didn't have improved cover. Both are fairly unlikely.

[zimmerwald1915]

The chances that Rich actually did math before having Kilkil say there was an 8% chance the Vitriolic Sphere had killed any of the Order are negligible to nonexistent.

However, it takes a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) to kill Vaarsuvius.
Speaking of maths, the potential damage Vaarsuvius took during her fight with Xykon amounted to between 30 and 324 HP, and between 1 and 3 nonlethal. The breakdown looks like this:

Still Meteor Swarm: 24d6 fire, ref halves (12-144)
Masonry: 4d6 bludgeoning, as swinging block trap (4-24)
Falling Damage from Xykon dropping her: 2d6 bludgeoning (2-12)
Xykon's grapple: 1d3 nonlethal, as unarmed strike (1-3)
Meteor Swarm: 24d6 fire, ref halves (12-144)

This is all survivable with 32 HP, improbable though it might be that Xykon rollled 1s on all his damage dice and V made all her reflex saves.

[Kish]

I would be very surprised if it was possible for Vaarsuvius to make any of Xykon's reflex saves without a natural 20.

[t209]

I think Belkar will also bring V with him to hell.
Oracle said that Belkar will also cause the death of V (or it already happened as death of his sanity and morality).

[zimmerwald1915]

I would be very surprised if it was possible for Vaarsuvius to make any of Xykon's reflex saves without a natural 20.
As would I. At worst, Vaarsuvius had a +1 to her reflex save during that fight (at least 5 DEX + 4 from being a level 14 Wizard). Xykon, meanwhile, had a save DC of at least 28 for his ninth-level spells. Like I said, however, 32 HP was all that V needed to survive the best case scenario for her, where she made all her saves and Xykon rolled all 1s.

[vrellum]

V could have had some form of fire resistance. Given his access to epic level magic, the resistance might have been quite powerful. Notice he took almost no damage from the first meteor swarm.

Even after the supreme dispelling he could have had an item.

So I don't think that fight can really tell us much about how many hit points V has.

[zimmerwald1915]

V could have had some form of fire resistance. Given his access to epic level magic, the resistance might have been quite powerful. Notice he took almost no damage from the first meteor swarm.

Even after the supreme dispelling he could have had an item.

So I don't think that fight can really tell us much about how many hit points V has.
We were watching V throughout the Soul Splice. She did not cast any spells that would have protected her against fire damage (Fire Shield would have, if it had been chill shield, but as we saw when the ABD attacked, it was a warm shield). She did cast Protection from Spells, but that boosts saves (and could account for V having made her save against the first Meteor Swarm - it did not survive Superior Dispelling and would not have survived the end of the Soul Splice even if it had - even with her low reflex modifier), and does not confer energy resistance of any type. Nor has she ever made reference to an item that confers energy resistance, which would have had to have before the splice.

Remember that V has said she has a CON penalty. Her maximum natural HP during the Xykon fight was 42 (14d4-14). Her minimum needed to survive the fight was 38 (I lowballed it in my post above: she also survived the three Lightning Bolt traps which would have dealt 5d6 ref half - that is, as least 2 - damage each). Her maximum now, at level 15, is 45, and her minimum is 39.

[polipone]

I think Belkar will also bring V with him to hell.
Oracle said that Belkar will also cause the death of V (or it already happened as death of his sanity and morality).

Belkar has already killed the Oracle, so this particular prophecy has already been fulfilled. So it's not necessary, storywise, that he kills Vaarsuvius.

[Marlowe]

Remember that V has said she has a CON penalty. .

When was this? He said he had a strength penalty during the fire at the inn, and it's been implied a couple of times that his charisma isn't great. He made some comments about his class choice leaving him a little slender in the hit points during the fight in Xykon's throne room, but that's hit dice rather than Con.

[Musco]

It is mentioned in Snips, Snails & Dragon Tales.

During the Stick Tales
Varsuuvius is playing the part of "sick grandma" to Haley's Little Red Riding Hood, and mentions that s/he should get around to "raising my constitution to double digits one of these days"

[Suentis]

What makes everyone so sure Belkar will die? He is literally a sexy shoeless god of war. He also doesn't do stupid things like risk himself for his friends. The only way I see him dying is to save the cat, and the cat has gutted someone with a single swipe and survived a bolt to the side.

Belkar is the ultimate survivor of the group, if anything Haley or Durkon will die.

[Kondziu]

What makes everyone so sure Belkar will die?The prophecy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

[Marlowe]

He's also been getting some minor death flags lately. And calling him the "ultimate survivor of the group" is kind of funny. But for plot armour, he'd have gotten himself and the party killed off a dozen times by now.

Also, you just used "He[Belkar]", "literally", and "sexy" in the same sentence almost as though you meant it.

[Sr.medusa]

But the prophecy says last breath, Belkar can become a Vampire Belkar (hope not) or, an Awsome Mummy Belkar (well, he is alredy in a piramid ¿no?)

[Kish]

"...not long for the world..."

[HerbieRAI]

I'd say the oppisite. Ever since his "character change", Belkar has become a strong member in the party. Combine that with his counterpart being a glorified accountant (who was not part of Tarquin's origonal party), I'll bet he'll be a pivotal member in this fight (with mad jump skills).

I think Belkar's death has to do with epic level magic or a rift. I find it hard to believe Elan would let the group not raise him if they had the oppertunity, and they are almost to the level of true resurrection, so it will need to be something major to keep that from happening.

[Kish]

I find it hard to believe Elan would let the group not raise him if they had the oppertunity,
Where does the meme that Elan feels a great deal of loyalty to Belkar come from?

He wanted to leave Belkar in Shojo's prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0263.html).

[Morph Bark]

I think he's already dead. (8 percent? Enough for him. :smalltongue:)

He's got one of the highest Ref saves in the party though, and is one of two members with Evasion. Unless Vitriolic Sphere does not allow Ref saves. If it allows Fort saves though, he's still likely got a better one than Haley and Elan and more hp to boot.

[zimmerwald1915]

He's got one of the highest Ref saves in the party though, and is one of two members with Evasion. Unless Vitriolic Sphere does not allow Ref saves. If it allows Fort saves though, he's still likely got a better one than Haley and Elan and more hp to boot.
Vitriolic Sphere allows a Ref save.

[Suentis]

The prophecy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Well yes, but I was referencing into this story Arc. The timeline of this comic is confusing in such a state that I figure it was only a month or two ago he was warned of that. If so, he has a lot longer until the "deadline" needs to be reached for the prophecy to be true.

[Kondziu]

Roy estimated Belkar's time left as "7 weeks" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) (that would most likely be the time left to the end of the year). It was almost 200 strips ago, so it's only natural that people expect it to happen any strip now.

[RNGgod]

Roy estimated Belkar's time left as "7 weeks" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) (that would most likely be the time left to the end of the year). It was almost 200 strips ago, so it's only natural that people expect it to happen any strip now.

It has been two weeks since then, as the Familicide theories (and ultimately 842) stated.

[rgrekejin]

Actually, I think it is extremely unlikely that Belkar will die any time soon (time measured in number of strips, not OOTS world time, where we know he has approximately five weeks max remaining). The reason has to do with a book-exclusive comic from Don't Split the Party.

When Belkar and Hinjo are discussing Mr. Scruffy, there is a flashback panel showing Lord Shojo and Sangwaan discussing putting the mark of justice on Belkar. In it, Sangwaan mentions that she sees Belkar saving Hinjo's life twice. The first time was obviously the time when he prevented the archer from shooting Hinjo with a poinsoned arrow during the battle of Azure City. But when was the second time? In #455, when he fireballed the hobgoblin archers? It seems unlikely. They got shot at anyway a few panels later, and survived relatively easily. It seems doubtful that that group of archers would have killed Hinjo, so it hardly counts as saving his life. If anything, it was Elan's illusion that saved their life by preventing the hobgoblins from following up on their attack. I mean, it could *technically* be the case, but it seems like trying to argue that Belkar "caused the death of" Roy by giving him his Ring of Jumping +20. And that's it. I can't think of any other time when Belkar could have possibly saved Hinjo's life. So, I'm going to assume that Belkar has saved Hinjo's life once, and that he has to do it once more. Since Hinjo is not involved in the desert arc, it seems highly unlikely to me that he will get a chance to save Hinjo's life until after the arc is concluded. Therefore, he must survive beyond this arc.

[T-Bone]

It has been two weeks since then, as the Familicide theories (and ultimately 842) stated.

Wow, two weeks in 200 strips? So he's got at least another 500 strips to go, assuming Roy had the math/meaning right in the first place. Which means we'll be arguing about whether it's right around the corner for the next ten years, at least :smallbiggrin:

I'd like to see Belkar as a flesh-to-stone'd statue guarding a rift, personally. He deserves something epic, anyway, and I for one will miss him once he stops breathing.

[mrmcfatty]

Where does the meme that Elan feels a great deal of loyalty to Belkar come from?

He wanted to leave Belkar in Shojo's prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0263.html).

I know what elan means by that, however for some reason i pictured him thinking that "springing" him meant they were going to beat him down with springs or throw them at him.

idk why i thought that, but it was funny, and knowing this comic and elan, i wouldnt be too surprised if it were true

[Aypock]

I don't think Belkar is going to die quite yet. There hasn't been enough build up, at least in my opinion. Now I'm not talking about some huge long arc about it, but I think Belkar hasn't fully gotten to the point where his death would be missed, which I think would be necessary before he died.

Also, like t209 said, I believe that Vaarsuvius will die at the same time as Belkar. This would start an arc with them in the afterlife trying to put a stop to IFCC's plans, or otherwise dealing with them.

[Talya]

The prophecy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)


Prophecies exist to mislead the audience, while still technically coming true. All Belkar needs to do is stop breathing, permanently. That doesn't even require death in D&D.

[T-Bone]

Prophecies exist to mislead the audience, while still technically coming true. All Belkar needs to do is stop breathing, permanently. That doesn't even require death in D&D.

Well said! And I think it's more interesting to speculate about how that's accomplished than when.

[jidasfire]

While it does seem unlikely that the Order is going to come out of this showdown unscathed given the power of the force they're up against, and there are more than a few foreboding warnings of doom for various Order members floating around, it does get a little tiresome with everyone always assuming Belkar's going to die every time he gets so much as a scratch. It never seems to be based on anything more than wild guessing for bragging rights in case the guesser happens to be right, but perhaps I'm just cynical that way.

I maintain that Belkar's death, whenever and however it comes, is going to be of his own volition. He's going to choose to die. Now, what could make Belkar choose death? Mr. Scruffy? Maybe, but it seems a little cliched and obvious. More likely, Belkar's fake character growth, combined with his actual love for his cat will (and already has a little) force him to recognize that there are other people out there who matter and be put in a situation where he alone can save that person.

My guess, for whatever it's worth, is it's going to be Vaarsuvius. Belkar has an odd kinship with the elf, and now that V has taken some foolish steps down the path toward evil, it would be easy for her/him to believe he/she deserves to die for those crimes. But Belkar, in his way, knows that V isn't lost, where he is an amoral bastard that the world would be better off without, so he may take the burden off so that V can live and fight to atone.

That is just as much a guess as anything else, but I remain convinced that Belkar's death will be by choice. So if you want to watch for actual signs, watch for that, and then start guessing.

[martianmister]

Prophecies exist to mislead the audience, while still technically coming true. All Belkar needs to do is stop breathing, permanently. That doesn't even require death in D&D.

He supposed to be "not long for this world", and shouldn't care about his IRA...

[Gift Jeraff]

The Giant has also expressed distaste in prophecies that are too twist-y, hence what the Oracle's explanations for Belkar causing the deaths of Roy/Miko/Windstriker were poking fun at.

So far, all of the Oracle's fulfilled prophecies have been pretty straightforward. Roy and Elan reunited with family members. Haley got her speech back because she didn't examine Nale too much. Belkar flat-out killed the Oracle with his own dagger. V's prophecy was exactly what it sounded like: a Faustian pact for raw power, there was just a twist as to who the right being was (Vaarsuvius) and what the four words were.

[rgrekejin]

The Giant has also expressed distaste in prophecies that are too twist-y, hence what the Oracle's explanations for Belkar causing the deaths of Roy/Miko/Windstriker were poking fun at.

Which is why I don't think Belkar will die until he has saved Hinjo's life one more time. And since Hinjo is not in this arc, it seems highly unlikely that he will be dead in the next 100 strips, let alone the next 10.

[King of Nowhere]

Ever since the prophecy, there's some new thread "belkar is going to die soon" every half dozen strips.
Belkar iis goona die against the thieve's guild, belkar is gonna be killed by darth V, belkar is goonna die from the big scary gladiator, belkar is gonna be killed by the linear guild....

Someone should make a compilation of all the "belkar will die" threads, jjust so we could get some laugther after thinking in retrospect how ridiculous was the idea. Hopefully, the op of those threads will be the first to laugh.

Oh, and I really don't think there are going to be any loopholes on his profecy. Seriosuly, rich has been trying to make the profecy as clear as possible by giving all the possible definitions he could think of to cover every possibility (no longer for this world, draw his last breath ever, and some others).
Of course with all the undead and undead-like stuff in D&D it is impossible to cover everything.

[martianmister]

Someone should make a compilation of all the "belkar will die" threads, jjust so we could get some laugther after thinking in retrospect how ridiculous was the idea.

Why and how is that "ridiculous"?

[Kislath]

Hmmm.. I haven't done the math, but, body-masswise, isn't Belkar around 8% of the party?

[Winter]

Hmmm.. I haven't done the math, but, body-masswise, isn't Belkar around 8% of the party?

No, it is not meant like that - and it is not said like that.

Wisdom-wise, he's less, hair-on-the-feet-wise, he's more. Do not start to use arbitrary measurements (that were not mentioned in the comic) to support crazy theories. :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

Why and how is that "ridiculous"?

In retrospect, some of the characters who were expected to kill Belkar are pretty unlikely: I give you Evisceratus. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html)

[Cirrylius]

No one's considered that he may actually lose to this kobold? C'mon. Having Belkar slaughter every linear guild kobold badass he encounters, and then die humorously by the hand of an accountant (via accident or rolling a one or overconfidence) would be a hysterical turnaround.

[Umberhulk]

Wait. . . we do?

Well, no we don't. Not really. I think it be an exciting duel, and I'm not sure who I would root for (even though Durkon would certainly lose).

[Dr.Epic]

Here we have impossible fight to win, and he needs to die soon. I guess he'll die in this fight and nobody will take time to ressurect him, because Team Evil is going to show up sooner than expected as well, maybe even midfight.

How? How do you know this?

A) The fight could go on for way longer than 10 strips.

B) Belkar could still survive this.

There's still a Gate protecting a massive rift and Team Evil. Those could all kill him.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

No one's considered that he may actually lose to this kobold? C'mon. Having Belkar slaughter every linear guild kobold badass he encounters, and then die humorously by the hand of an accountant (via accident or rolling a one or overconfidence) would be a hysterical turnaround.

This. Belkar is Hell on Wheels in a stand-up fight. No other fighter can take him dpwn due to his plot armor and general bad-assery. But now here comes the most harmless appearing enemy, and yet another kobold.

And somehow, Kilkil will kill Belkar in an almost offhanded way, same as Belkar killed Lurkey Solt or whatever his name was.

But I'm also convinced that in his dying, he saves V, and everyone ends up seeing him as a self-sacrificing hero, and not just a psychotic jerk.

[Kish]

For the sake of being able to track this prediction, I am recording that the current strip at the time this thread went up is 847.

[weso12]

Has no one considered that Kilkil could very well be a half-dragon, a dragon disple or a high level dragon shaman all of who could beat belkar three ways to sunday

[Chibioverlord]

Why does he need to die soon?

[willpell]

I like to think that much like Ms. Starshine, Tarquin knows a fight his class (whatever it is) wasn't designed for.

Tarquin is a fighter.

[Forbiddenwar]

Why does he need to die soon?

Good question. Math shows he has at most 5 weeks (or 500 strips)

A better prediction is that Belkar will die before the end of the last book. Or that he will die within the next 1000 strips.
But those aren't as fun, I suppose

[Ranzear]

By the by... I know this was probably a throwaway gag about his mathemagic, but:


8% chance that any of the Order would die.

~1.38% each, if the Kobold is presuming six members were hit.

[Winter]

Or it could be 0 for all but one who is at 8, or it could be zero for all and 4 for two or...

[Garwain]

Belkar will die because the 8% clearly points towards Mr. Scruffy. And with his beloved pet gone, Belkar is raging untill someone drops. And it will be himself in 27 strips.

[OPM]

Prophecies exist to mislead the audience, while still technically coming true. All Belkar needs to do is stop breathing, permanently. That doesn't even require death in D&D.

There's more than one way to mislead the audience.

Belkar could also get that ioun stone that lets you survive without air, hold his breath thereafter due to hating how humans smell, and then die to save Mr. Scruffy from Darth V in the very next panel.

So I would say that they exist to create dramatic tension by letting the audience know what will happen and leaving them scrambling to figure out how it will take place.

[martianmister]

Tarquin is a fighter.

Or Warrior.

[rgrekejin]

Or Warrior.

*balks at the suggestion that Tarquin has just an NPC class*

[zimmerwald1915]

*balks at the suggestion that Tarquin has just an NPC class*
Shojo had an NPC class. So, in all likelihood, did the CPPD Chief. PC class levels are not a necessary prerequisite for being awesome.

Not that Tarquin is awesome. He's a snake. But the point does not stand or fall by Tarquin.

[rgrekejin]

Shojo had an NPC class. So, in all likelihood, did the CPPD Chief. PC class levels are not a necessary prerequisite for being awesome.

Not that Tarquin is awesome. He's a snake. But the point does not stand or fall by Tarquin.

Yes, Shojo and the CCPD chief were both awesome characters, and they both had NPC classes. What they were not, however, were proven front-line combatants. As per #822, Tarquin considers himself one of the finest warriors of his generation (warrior in this case being used in the general sense, and definitelynot to refer to the NPC class). He's seen Roy in combat, and looks forward to a confrontation. Tarquin, whatever else he may be, does not seem like the sort of person who is grossly unaware of his own limitations. It stands to reason that if Tarquin is eager to fight Roy, he must at least stand a decent chance of defeating Roy. Which means either that he is not a warrior, or is at a much, much higher level than Roy. I believe the former to be more likely.

Also, Tarquin was the leader of an adventuring party that had members of known PC classes. What group of adventurers randomly includes someone with a much weaker NPC class among their numbers? It just doesn't happen. Now he is a member of the Linear Guild, every member of which has had a PC class. It just seems incredibly unlikely to me that Tarquin would be a warrior when a fighter seems to fit the patterns better.

And Tarquin may indeed be a snake, but I take issue with the notion that that precludes him from being awesome.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, Shojo and the CCPD chief were both awesome characters, and they both had NPC classes. What they were not, however, were proven front-line combatants. As per #822, Tarquin considers himself one of the finest warriors of his generation (warrior in this case being used in the general sense, and definitelynot to refer to the NPC class). He's seen Roy in combat, and looks forward to a confrontation. Tarquin, whatever else he may be, does not seem like the sort of person who is grossly unaware of his own limitations. It stands to reason that if Tarquin is eager to fight Roy, he must at least stand a decent chance of defeating Roy. Which means either that he is not a warrior, or is at a much, much higher level than Roy. I believe the former to be more likely.
The stigma of "NPC class" aside, a Warrior isn't that much worse off than a Fighter. Indeed, a Warrior is just about as well off as a fallen Paladin, and as those of us who've had DMs with a hate-on for Paladins can say, those are entirely playable :smallamused: . Actually, if stat arrays actually tended to align with a class' priorities in OOTS, he'd be a little better off; Warriors are not as MAD as Paladins. And we've seen a fallen Paladin of near Roy's level confidently go toe-to-toe with Roy. That she lost had more to do, I believe, with her emotional state and getting distracted by Hinjo (she would have escaped without his intervention) than with the mechanical loss of her paladin powers. Only Lay on Hands would have really helped her against Roy, who is not Evil and cannot make her roll saves or contract a disease.

Besides, Roy has the wealth of an adventuring PC of his level. Tarquin has the wealth of a general with a distinguished service record going back decades. Come to think of it, Tarquin's power has always been wealth-based, judging by his need to seize a treasure before raising an army. Any paltry difference in class power would be more than made up for by Tarquin's wealth.


Also, Tarquin was the leader of an adventuring party that had members of known PC classes. What group of adventurers randomly includes someone with a much weaker NPC class among their numbers? It just doesn't happen. Now he is a member of the Linear Guild, every member of which has had a PC class. It just seems incredibly unlikely to me that Tarquin would be a warrior when a fighter seems to fit the patterns better.
D&D 3.5 being what it is, just about every party out there is made up of members of wildly differing power levels. The OOTS itself adventured with Elan, who up until his time with Julio rarely even bothered trying to contribute to the group, and who Roy considered a liability. Nor can we be sure than every member of this latest incarnation of Linear Guild has a PC class. We don't know anything of Kilkil's class. Furthermore, Sabine and Zz'dtri both have either level adjustment or racial hit dice that results in them having fewer class levels than they might if they were PHB races with the same ECL.


And Tarquin may indeed be a snake, but I take issue with the notion that that precludes him from being awesome.
Excuse me for not liking a character as much as you do.

[rgrekejin]

The stigma of "NPC class" aside, a Warrior isn't that much worse off than a Fighter. Indeed, a Warrior is just about as well off as a fallen Paladin, and as those of us who've had DMs with a hate-on for Paladins can say, those are entirely playable

I dunno. Those bonus feats add up. And yes, a fallen Paladin is of course playable, for a time, but you cannot tell me that they are as good as a fighter. Nobody in their right mind would ever pick "Fallen Paladin" as a base class. Nobody would ever pick "warrior" either. And since we have ample in-comic evidence that you get to pick your class when you level up, even if the universe had dealt Tarquin a bad hand and he had to start off as a warrior, you had better believe that the very first time he leveled up, being rule-savvy as is, he would multiclass in to something better (probably fighter).

(The above argument is partially in jest... if this were actually true, no one would ever have more than 1 level of warrior. It's more a joke about Tarquin's inherent genre-savvy-ness)


Besides, Roy has the wealth of an adventuring PC of his level. Tarquin has the wealth of a general with a distinguished service record going back decades. Come to think of it, Tarquin's power has always been wealth-based, judging by his need to seize a treasure before raising an army. Any paltry difference in class power would be more than made up for by Tarquin's wealth.

...who doesn't need to seize a treasure before raising an army? Even if you don't have to pay them,you still have to feed them and arm them. It also sort of implies that before this, he didn't have a huge pile of gold to back his play, and he seems to have been effective anyway.


D&D 3.5 being what it is, just about every party out there is made up of members of wildly differing power levels. The OOTS itself adventured with Elan, who up until his time with Julio rarely even bothered trying to contribute to the group, and who Roy considered a liability. Nor can we be sure than every member of this latest incarnation of Linear Guild has a PC class. We don't know anything of Kilkil's class. Furthermore, Sabine and Zz'dtri both have either level adjustment or racial hit dice that results in them having fewer class levels than they might if they were PHB races with the same ECL.

True. I suppose Tarquin's usefulness to the party may have been based solely on his leadership abilities and charisma. We just have no evidence of that. Every time we've seen him in combat, he's appeared to be extremely competent. This includes defending himself from Elan's puns (and his subsequent quip that he knows how to defend himself from all kinds of obscure forms of attack). This would at least sort of indicate the level of specialization allowed by bonus feats.

All that aside, I suppose that it is possible that he is a warrior, but why? Why nerf the big, bad villain by making him a weaker NPC class, when he could just as easily be a full-fledged PC class? He just seems much more likely to be a fighter or some other such class.


Excuse me for not liking a character as much as you do.

It is done. :smallsmile:

[zimmerwald1915]

I dunno. Those bonus feats add up. And yes, a fallen Paladin is of course playable, for a time, but you cannot tell me that they are as good as a fighter. Nobody in their right mind would ever pick "Fallen Paladin" as a base class. Nobody would ever pick "warrior" either.
Speak for yourself. I've played both. And a wizard who started without a spellbook.

But then, I am a bit mental.


All that aside, I suppose that it is possible that he is a warrior, but why? Why nerf the big, bad villain by making him a weaker NPC class, when he could just as easily be a full-fledged PC class? He just seems much more likely to be a fighter or some other such class.
I tend to assume the minimum level of power needed to explain something shown in the comic, rather than the maximum. The two times we've seen Tarquin in realtime combat, all he's been shown to be adept at is not getting hit, something which can be achieved with wealth alone (AC is mostly item-dependant). The three exceptions to this are when he executes his predecessor before going on his conquering spree, when he managed to disarm Elan (who has no special defenses against this sort of combat maneuver), and when he managed to hit unarmored Nale with a thrown dagger. Tarquin could be an epic ur-priest as easily as he could be a fighter or warrior with a couple levels on Roy and a bunch of magic items. Nothing, however, suggests that he's an epic ur-priest. Or a warrior. Or a fighter. After all, if one needn't have levels in the samurai class to be a samurai, one not need levels in any given class to be the greatest warrior of the age.

[rgrekejin]

I tend to assume the minimum level of power needed to explain something shown in the comic, rather than the maximum.

My primary objection is really that Tarquin being an NPC class would be just so out of character for a villain in this comic. Even if they're poorly optimized, or not high on the tier system, villains in the comic tend to have PC class levels, not NPC classes (Kubota excepted, as actual physical combat was not his schtick). That's what makes them threatening. He could be a warrior, but that's kind of a weird assumption to make, given how the comic has shaken out thus far. Unless it was done as part of an explicit joke/plot point that even NPC classes can be threatening, there's really little reason to assume he is one.

[willpell]

What makes everyone so sure Belkar will die? He is literally a sexy shoeless god of war.

He is not in fact literally any of that other than shoeless (and arguably sexy, at least Julia the bard/rogue/sorcerer appeared to think so).


Belkar is the ultimate survivor of the group, if anything Haley or Durkon will die.

Haley dying seems extremely unlikely, but there's a pretty good case for Durkon biting it at some point. Better in fact than the case for Belkar, since the oracle was speaking on the record in Durkon's instance.

[SinsI]

There is a chance Belkar already rid himself of Oracle-given "die within a year" fate.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html
He had to "Evolve or Die" - and did the former.

[Kish]

There is a chance Belkar already rid himself of Oracle-given "die within a year" fate.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html
He had to "Evolve or Die" - and did the former.
There is no basis for associating Shojo's Mark of Justice passcode with the Oracle's prophecy.

I mean, even before we get into "Belkar is acting, badly, and not fooling anyone."

[ti'esar]

Well, it looks like those theorizing that Belkar would (directly or indirectly) be done in by a vengeful Yukyuk must be feeling pretty silly now.

Another entry for that hypothetical list.

[Kish]

YUKYUK WILL RISE AS A REVENANT.

(Are revenants even in 3.5ed?)

[Gift Jeraff]

Yukyuk will become undead, go to the world within the world, and never eat ca--wait. Whoops, wrong small psychopathic ranger.

[cloudland]

What make everyone think that Belkar will die and removed from this world far from the end of this comics? It seems to me that the Oracle's prediction doubled as a foreshadowing of how long in-universe the story will last. I think that with 5 weeks left, pretty likely the whole thing would be wrapped up, especially considering the low rate of in-universe time vs. strip count we have.

[hihidude]

I'm going to bet that Durkon dies sometime during the fight, causing Malack to turn against the Guild. The Order wins and Malack raises Durkon, and they go to the dwarven lands. Malack comes with them (perhaop fulfilling "bringing death and destruction with him" as Nergal is god of both (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)) and they have a climatic battle in which Belkar dies.

I like this idea a lot, and hope it proves true. But they won't revive Durkon until after they return to Dwarven lands, because he returns posthumously.

[Terah]

I like this idea a lot, and hope it proves true. But they won't revive Durkon until after they return to Dwarven lands, because he returns posthumously.
Even if Durkon is raised before he returns to the Dwarven Lands he would be returning posthumously. Posthumously means "after death", which in OOTS is not equivalent to "currently dead". Roy is currently posthumous.

[rgd20]

Even if Durkon is raised before he returns to the Dwarven Lands he would be returning posthumously. Posthumously means "after death", which in OOTS is not equivalent to "currently dead". Roy is currently posthumous.

Also Durkon could return right now without breaking the prophecy. The question he aske was How will I finally be returnin' ta me beloved dwarven homelands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

I assume that Durkon meant finally to mean "when, oh gods when, will I be sent for". But it could be interpreted as meaning that he wanders back and forth between the dwarven homelands popping in for beer every week, just that he dies outside them. Thus his final return will be posthumous, not necessarily his next one.

Bob

[Chessgeek]

I would like to point out that 5 weeks will not necessarily correspond to 500 strips. As of strip 484, the Battle of Azure City is over. After the escape sequence (wherein Redcloak lost his eye), I had thought that there was mention that Team Evil had wasted a year, but I cannot see it in strip 662. By strip 832, Xykon said that he thought Redcloak would putz around for six months, to which Redcloak responds that that would cost him half of an eyeball. By that math, 484-832 was around a year and a half. While circumstances may have been different at the time, there really isn't a set conversion rate, at least not one that I am aware of.

As for Belkar's death, I don't think it will be at the hands of V, but more likely somewhere in the OotS vs. The Linear Guild fight, with the possible addition of team evil. Given that Zz'ditri, Nale, and Sabine are on par for the team's levels, Malack is above OotS, and we can assume that Tarquin is as well, I don't expect either side to escape unharmed here. Either Kilkil will whip out some sort of a fighter level and pummel him, or Team Evil shows up and Xykon puts the last nail in his coffin. Maybe we even get to see Mitd in the fight.
Those are my thoughts, anyway. Within 20 strips I will probably be proven wrong beyond belief.

[RNGgod]

I would like to point out that 5 weeks will not necessarily correspond to 500 strips. As of strip 484, the Battle of Azure City is over. After the escape sequence (wherein Redcloak lost his eye), I had thought that there was mention that Team Evil had wasted a year, but I cannot see it in strip 662. By strip 832, Xykon said that he thought Redcloak would putz around for six months, to which Redcloak responds that that would cost him half of an eyeball. By that math, 484-832 was around a year and a half. While circumstances may have been different at the time, there really isn't a set conversion rate, at least not one that I am aware of.

I agree with your first point, but the "500 strips" is only meant to illustrate how, as you say, time and number of strips often fail to match up. Belkar might die in 849 (I doubt it); he might die in 1203. The fact remains that strip 1203, as I'm calling it, might very well be within five weeks of 848, in-comic time.

Of course, it might not. It might be a year or more later. Who knows? Just fun to think about.

[Gift Jeraff]

By that math, 484-832 was around a year and a half. About a week ago in-universe, Redcloak said that the one-year anniversary of the Battle of Azure City was 6 weeks away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).

EDIT: And since the battle took place about a week after the New Year (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19), this means 4 weeks until the end of the year.

[Chessgeek]

huh. In either case the 100 strips per week theory is wrong, but that is kinda weird. I guess my brain just made up numbers again. But then why is six months = to half of an eyeball? I know that I didn't make that one up. It was definitely in comic 832.

Edit: I misunderstood. I thought that the six months Xykon and Redcloak were talking about had already passed. The haven't, and it is still just about 1 year since the Battle of Azure City.