Girard: Wizard or Sorcerer?

[Gift Jeraff]

This was discussed a bit a while ago, but I'm curious as to whether readers see Girard as a wizard or a sorcerer.

I'm going to go with sorcerer. Draconic blood, presumably good Charisma (Serini's crush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)), the Scribblers already had a team wizard (this is more of an aesthetic thing, obviously having 2 wizards doesn't really matter and is probably preferable to 1 wizard + 1 sorcerer)... Just seems to fit.

The main thing going for wizard is being called an illusionist. Even then, Xykon's been referred to as a necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), but I'm not even sure if Xykon was established as a sorcerer at that point (though canonically, Roy already knew he's a sorcerer). There's also Nale calling himself a sorcerer who specializes in enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

Thoughts?

[rgrekejin]

Yeah, it seems more likely that he's a sorcerer, for the reasons that you listed above. Probably good charisma, dragon blood, etc. And even though it is generally wizards who are called illusionists because of their specialty school, a sorcerer who knows mostly illusion spells would probably, by default, use more illusion spells than an illusionist wizard, just by virtue of having fewer options.

[blackspeeker]

For some reason I have come around to the thought that he is a bard with perform: oratator. I have no evidence to back up this, but its what I have.

[zimmerwald1915]

Y'know, I've argued for Girard-as-Wizard in the past (mostly to try to argue against what I saw as the crackpot theory that Girard was related to ABD, heh), but there's a consideration that hasn't yet been mentioned here, and that points to Girard-as-Sorcerer. Girard took two levels of Ranger so he could cover the party's cartographical needs. If he were a wizard, he could have put skill points in Knowledge (geography) without penalty. As a Sorcerer, he would have had to deal with the fact that Knowledge (geography) was not a class skill, not to mention that without INT as a casting stat he probably wouldn't have had many skill points to spare.

Sorcerer 19+/Ranger 2 might make more sense for Girard than Wizard 19+/Ranger 2.

[rgrekejin]

For some reason I have come around to the thought that he is a bard with perform: oratator. I have no evidence to back up this, but its what I have.

You know, that's a good thought. I always assumed that other than his two levels of ranger, Girard was a full spellcaster. But, upon further contemplation, there's really no reason he couldn't be a bard, is there? Hopefully we'll find out sometime.

edit: With respect to Girard's ranger levels, it wasn't just Knowledge (geography) he was looking for. He's mentioned to be the Order's "Illusionist and Tracker" which implies that survival and the track feat were probably just as big a deal for him as knowledge (geography). Because of this, the ranger dip makes sense for both wizard and sorcerer. Sorcerer still seems like the most likely possibility, however.

[Kish]

It would seem odd if the Order of the Scribble had two wizards and one of them was presented, as Dorukan has been, very much as THE WIZARD of the group.

That said, since Girard is apparently very dead and has been for a long time, I wonder, a little, if Rich has even decided, beyond that he was an epic spellcaster and master of illusions with a two-level ranger dip.

[Jasdoif]

For some reason I have come around to the thought that he is a bard with perform: oratator. I have no evidence to back up this, but its what I have....you know, Girard as a bard (Girbard?) makes a lot of sense. He appears to have worn armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), and a bard doesn't suffer from arcane spell failure chance in light armor while a wizard/sorcerer does. And a bard doesn't get access to epic spells (since a bard can't meet the "ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells" prerequisite for the Epic Spellcasting feat), which could account for the meager (compared to what Dorukan had) magical defenses.

[smasher0404]

...you know, Girard as a bard (Girbard?) makes a lot of sense. He appears to have worn armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), and a bard doesn't suffer from arcane spell failure chance in light armor while a wizard/sorcerer does. And a bard doesn't get access to epic spells (since a bard can't meet the "ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells" prerequisite for the Epic Spellcasting feat), which could account for the meager (compared to what Dorukan had) magical defenses.

actually there is an alternate class feature in one book called battle sorcerer that allows you to wear light armor.

[Eigenclass]

It looks more like a cloth vest here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html), actually. I'm guessing this is the same article of clothing because it's the same color, and the rest of his outfit (minus cloak, which might be that thing tucked under the skeleton's head is) looks about the same.

But bard still makes more sense than sorcerer, because of the whole dual-wielding thing. Why would you melee with only Sorc BAB?

[Blisstake]

Can you even cast spells (that have somatic components) if you're dual wielding?

[AgentofOdd]

...you know, Girard as a bard (Girbard?) makes a lot of sense. He appears to have worn armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), and a bard doesn't suffer from arcane spell failure chance in light armor while a wizard/sorcerer does. And a bard doesn't get access to epic spells (since a bard can't meet the "ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells" prerequisite for the Epic Spellcasting feat), which could account for the meager (compared to what Dorukan had) magical defenses.Actually, bard are capable of getting Epic Spellcasting with the Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improved_Spell_Capacity) feat. With that said though, I also think that Girard did not have access to epic spell.

[blackspeeker]

Can you even cast spells (that have somatic components) if you're dual wielding?

From the SRD, you must have one hand free cast spells with a somatic component. I hats that, shoots a hole in Girard being a warrior poet. Of course he could just drop a sword to cast spells, like he does when concealing the gate.

[rgrekejin]

From the SRD, you must have one hand free cast spells with a somatic component. I hats that, shoots a hole in Girard being a warrior poet. Of course he could just drop a sword to cast spells, like he does when concealing the gate.

Well, not really. Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard, he needs a free hand to cast no matter which he is. Since we know he could fight with two weapons, and we know he could cast spells, we know that he must drop or put his weapons away to cast (or apply Still Spell to every spell he ever casts, but that seems unlikely).

[Jasdoif]

Actually, bard are capable of getting Epic Spellcasting with the Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improved_Spell_Capacity) feat. With that said though, I also think that Girard did not have access to epic spell.Improved Spell Capacity could get a bard 9th-level spell slots. The bard still doesn't have any 9th-level spells to cast.


From the SRD, you must have one hand free cast spells with a somatic component. I hats that, shoots a hole in Girard being a warrior poet. Of course he could just drop a sword to cast spells, like he does when concealing the gate.Girard seems to attack with his swords instead of spells, though. Which would make sense if he didn't know a lot of direct combat spells...like if he was a bard.

[AgentofOdd]

Improved Spell Capacity could get a bard 9th-level spell slots. The bard still doesn't have any 9th-level spells to cast.The wording does seem a bit ambiguous since it says you need the "ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Epic_Spellcasting). I interpret "ability" to mean power or capacity which would qualify a Bard with just the 9th level slot, but I agree it's also possible to read it your way. Still, even in that case, it just means said bard will just need to get metamagic feat(s) to raise her 6th level spells to 9th level.

EDIT: Another possibility is the Spell Knowledge (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spell_Knowledge) feat which would let a bard learn 2 arcane spells of any level as long as they the necessary spell slots.

[Forikroder]

This was discussed a bit a while ago, but I'm curious as to whether readers see Girard as a wizard or a sorcerer.

I'm going to go with sorcerer. Draconic blood, presumably good Charisma (Serini's crush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)), the Scribblers already had a team wizard (this is more of an aesthetic thing, obviously having 2 wizards doesn't really matter and is probably preferable to 1 wizard + 1 sorcerer)... Just seems to fit.

The main thing going for wizard is being called an illusionist. Even then, Xykon's been referred to as a necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), but I'm not even sure if Xykon was established as a sorcerer at that point (though canonically, Roy already knew he's a sorcerer). There's also Nale calling himself a sorcerer who specializes in enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

Thoughts?

id say Serini having a crush on Girard is hardly a good base toa rgue he ahs high Charisma

id say his not seeming to get along with anyone would be indicitive of a low charisma score

though he did seem fairly well worded during his speech he put in the bubble

[Jasdoif]

The wording does seem a bit ambiguous since it says you need the "ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Epic_Spellcasting). I interpret "ability" to mean power or capacity which would qualify a Bard with just the 9th level slot, but I agree it's also possible to read it your way. Still, even in that case, it just means said bard will just need to get metamagic feat(s) to raise her 6th level spells to 9th level.Well, without 9th-level spells to cast, there's no ability to cast 9th-level spells. Tad confusing in the wording, I suppose, but rather clear. As for metamagic...well, I just realized I'd forgotten about Heighten Spell, which would work here (since it specifically increases the spell's effective level unlike other metamagic feats).

So I stand corrected, an epic bard could get epic spellcasting. But it'd require four epic feats instead of the one it would take for a wizard/sorcerer, so it's not something I'd expect here (Girard would likely have no way of knowing if he'd live long enough to gain all those epic feats, and he'd have to choose against epic feats that could provide benefits immediately.) The relative lack of magical defenses would still make sense, even though it is possible a Girard-as-a-bard could develop epic spells.

[KillianHawkeye]

You know, that's a good thought. I always assumed that other than his two levels of ranger, Girard was a full spellcaster. But, upon further contemplation, there's really no reason he couldn't be a bard, is there? Hopefully we'll find out sometime.

Bards ARE full spellcasters.




Can you even cast spells (that have somatic components) if you're dual wielding?

From the SRD, you must have one hand free cast spells with a somatic component. I hats that, shoots a hole in Girard being a warrior poet. Of course he could just drop a sword to cast spells, like he does when concealing the gate.

Well, not really. Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard, he needs a free hand to cast no matter which he is. Since we know he could fight with two weapons, and we know he could cast spells, we know that he must drop or put his weapons away to cast (or apply Still Spell to every spell he ever casts, but that seems unlikely).

There is also a feat that allows you to perform somatic gestures with a weapon or other held item. I think it was called Somatic Weaponry (probably found in Complete Arcane or Complete Mage).

[Hazzardevil]

Bards ARE full spellcasters.


When people talk about spellcasters, people mean level 9 spells for full spellcasters, half for ranger/paladin casting and bards just get called bard casters.

[Kish]

bard casters.
"Bard casters" sound like their primary class feature involves throwing bards at enemies.

[Winter]

"Yai, I'm particip*splat*"... sounds like an effective weapon and use for bards. :smallyuk:

[Murray]

There is also a feat that allows you to perform somatic gestures with a weapon or other held item. I think it was called Somatic Weaponry (probably found in Complete Arcane or Complete Mage).

Somatic Weaponry feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2)? Oh yes! All the wacky things I need to look up if I get back into D&D.


"Bard casters" sound like their primary class feature involves throwing bards at enemies.

Not arcane items that permit the use of Bard class features via mass sending? :smallsmile:

[Skavensrule]

"Yai, I'm particip*splat*"... sounds like an effective weapon and use for bards. :smallyuk:

If the bards being thrown are mimes I'm all for it, Havelock Vetinari of Discworld has the right idea concerning them. "Learn the words"

[Eigenclass]

If the bards being thrown are mimes

Bards can't be mimes, right? Bardic Music requires some sort of spoken component to the performance. You can have a musician, a poet, a rapper - heck maybe even "popstar" bards that dance AND sing, but base their Perform off dance - but not a mime.

About Girard's class though - I looked through the spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) again, and it looks like there are a couple spells on there that bards can't cast - namely, Illusory Pit and Shifting Paths (not on the bard list, plus Shifting Paths is level 8).

The most likely scenario seems to be that Girard was a sorcerer by virtue of his draconic heritage, and his offspring inherited that ability. Either that, or they have a secret wizard-training academy in the pyramid (since children are kidnapped in their infancy), or the same draconic gene that produced Girard the Bard also produced sorcerers.

I guess the swords were just for show, or maybe he did have Somatic Weaponry, and the swords were actually magic items that enhanced casting rather than melee weapons... Or, due to his limited spell selection as a sorcerer (if such he was), he had no choice but to defend himself with gimped melee...

Actually, it's interesting to note that Z also dual-wields. Theoretically, if your DEX bonus is at least 2 points higher than your STR bonus, dual-wielding finessable weapons might actually give you a better shot of hitting - at least enough to discourage some low-level mook.

[Gandariel]

Bard / Sublime Chord? it should make everyone happy.

[Kish]

Bard / Sublime Chord? it should make everyone happy.
Except those of us who prefer not to be reminded that WotC ever had the poor taste to put Sublime Chord in print.

[blackspeeker]

Just out of idle curiousity, what is the problem with sublime chord. (Not trying to start a whole to do)

[AgentofOdd]

My understanding is that the since the Sublime Chord is supposed to allow a Bard to become a fully capable arcane caster, it progresses to 9th level spells at an abnormally fast rate in order to compensate for the Bard's relatively slower spell progression. However, there are no restrictions preventing other more powerful spell casting classes like wizards from taking this prestige class, and most folks consider this to be rather broken.

[Fish]

Maybe Girard was a first-edition AD&D "illusionist." They had a separate spell list altogether, as I recall from the PHB (with the demonic statue on the cover).

If Haley's father was a first-edition thief, surely Girard predates him.

[Kish]

Just out of idle curiousity, what is the problem with sublime chord. (Not trying to start a whole to do)
Its intended function is to eradicate the primary balancing feature of the (single) base class it's designed to go with.

Maybe Girard was a first-edition AD&D "illusionist." They had a separate spell list altogether, as I recall from the PHB (with the demonic statue on the cover).

If Haley's father was a first-edition thief, surely Girard predates him.
So does Xykon. And yet, Xykon was born a sorcerer.

[Chronos]

Quoth Eigenclass:

Bards can't be mimes, right? Bardic Music requires some sort of spoken component to the performance. You can have a musician, a poet, a rapper - heck maybe even "popstar" bards that dance AND sing, but base their Perform off dance - but not a mime.I'm not aware of any such restriction.


About Girard's class though - I looked through the spell list again, and it looks like there are a couple spells on there that bards can't cast - namely, Illusory Pit and Shifting Paths (not on the bard list, plus Shifting Paths is level 8).
Then again, Girard himself isn't on that schedule, just various of his descendants. Just because he (might have been/was) a bard, doesn't mean his whole family must be.

[Eigenclass]

I'm not aware of any such restriction.

Nonetheless, it's true - dust off the ol' Player's Handbook or pop over to the SRD and look for yourself. Every bard spell has a verbal component, and Bardic Music requires reciting poetry, playing an instrument, singing words or melodies, or any combination of the above. Theoretically, you could have a mime-bard, but they wouldn't be able to use any actual bard abilities (other than Bardic Knowledge) barring some house-rule - but not per RAW.


Just because he (might have been/was) a bard, doesn't mean his whole family must be.

I admitted this possibility as well. Typically both abilities stem from draconic bloodlines, but nothing precludes the possibility that the same blood could produce both abilities, I suppose. The real reason this is significant is because we're told Girard warded his gate with "mighty illusions". If his descendants are rotating 8th-level spells, the best illusions that a Bard could do, which'd be on the order of Permanent Image or Veil, couldn't fairly be described as "mighty" in comparison, could they?

[AstralFire]

Subsonics.

[Fish]

So does Xykon. And yet, Xykon was born a sorcerer.
That doesn't preclude Girard from being a first-edition illusionist; because he predates Haley's first-edition father, though, Girard should be allowed to be one.

That might even work in his advantage; nobody these days even has a Save vs Spells, or Save vs Wands/Staves/Rods.

[Kish]

"Allowed"? I wasn't aware anything indicated that Girard wanted to be a First Edition illusionist.

[Gift Jeraff]

I doubt he's a bard because there has yet to be any indication of that. I'm sure we would've seen him singing or carrying an instrument in the Crayons of Time if that were the case.

I'm also going to doubt 1st-edition illusionist (though that was my original thought when I first read through the comic), because I don't think Rich would bring back the edition jokes for such a plot central character and make things confusing for non-D&Ders. Also, I'd be willing to ignore the whole "Xykon couldn't exist in a pre-third edition world" issue if the whole entire party was an older edition, but it seems pretty clear that they aren't, so having him be first-edition while the rest of his party is 3.X just makes things even more complicating.

[Winter]

Beyond a few jokes and remarks, the first edition does not exist in OotS, which is completely based on 3.0/3.5. Now char ever was shown to work in other editions than 3.x and Xykon started as Sorcerer who worked as 3.x decades before any human char could have been a first edition... Anything.

All remarks or mentionings of any edition before 3.x are either jokes (probably the Haley-thing) or so far back in the past (the RPG in the clouds) that no living character has been converted.

First edition (as well as 2nd and whatnot) simply do not play any role in OotS-verse, you can savely forget about them.

[Fish]

"Allowed"? I wasn't aware anything indicated that Girard wanted to be a First Edition illusionist.
Stop twisting my words. I never said Girard wanted anything.

By allowed, I mean we are able to speculate that that is the case; the idea is not off the table; it cannot be logically eliminated by virtue of Xykon's age and class choices. If Ian, younger than Girard, could be first-edition, so could Girard. It's not difficult.

Since Rich invented the backstory around the time he was making rules jokes, it's tough to say whether Girard's class is a gag. But Girard isn't a new character.

Whether it makes narrative sense, I don't know; all it means is that he has some powerful spells against which it's harder to make saves. We knew that already; he's epic. It also means Rich couldn't use any of the old spell names, because they're not covered under the d20 license.

[Winter]

If Ian, younger than Girard, could be first-edition, so could Girard. It's not difficult.

Haley could have used a figure of speech or a metaphor to underline what she wanted to say ("she is a good rogue as her father was since... ever").
Actually, it is likely as we know the comic did not use 1st in Xykon's Mortal Days. The evidence directly observed in the comic trumps the speculations that arise from a (in-comic) throw-away remark from Haley (which out-of-comic we can very probably count as plain joke from a time when there was no real story).

[Math_Mage]

I don't suppose there are any plausible gish builds that merely dip two levels of Ranger?

[Jasdoif]

Not sure about builds, but two levels of Ranger would be enough to get Two-Weapon Fighting without spending a feat on it, and without having to meet the normal prerequisites for it.

[Math_Mage]

Not sure about builds, but two levels of Ranger would be enough to get Two-Weapon Fighting without spending a feat on it, and without having to meet the normal prerequisites for it.

Yeah, anyone who didn't already know that from D&D learned it from Belkar. But Ranger doesn't advance caster levels unless you're going Swift Hunter, which doesn't seem like Girard's shtick. I dunno, maybe he just went Ranger so he could look cool dual-wielding and then went straight Sorcerer.

[rgrekejin]

Yeah, anyone who didn't already know that from D&D learned it from Belkar. But Ranger doesn't advance caster levels unless you're going Swift Hunter, which doesn't seem like Girard's shtick. I dunno, maybe he just went Ranger so he could look cool dual-wielding and then went straight Sorcerer.

This, most likely. It is well known that within OOTS most characters are generally far from optimized. It's probably unrealistic to expect that Girard has a decent gish build going. He seems like the sort of character that would embrace style over substance anyway.

[Chronos]

In the Attack from the Fourth Dimension strips in Snips, one of the 4th edition characters explains that the earlier versions of the characters won't actually cease to exist, they'll just sort of merge into their up-to-date counterparts. They also say that the world is older than the time since it came into existence, since it retroactively exists before then, too. So Xykon's childhood is part of the retroactive existence of 3rd edition, while Haley's father originated in an earlier edition and got updated.

[with an e]

At least one level in ranger with either sorcerer or wizard classes would allow Girard to meet Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) requirements by level 6 (wizard) or level 7 (sorcerer), if he took the ranger levels separately. This would further delay his spellcasting by 1 level. However, it would give him full BAB progression for the Eldritch Knight levels (if he's ranger 2, wizard/sorcerer 8, and EK 10, he'd have 16 BAB by level 20, enough for 4 attacks per round with 1 higher BAB than Bards) and still meet epic spellcasting requirements by level 21.

Not the most efficient build, but it would certainly make his two swords far more than just decorative.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, anyone who didn't already know that from D&D learned it from Belkar. But Ranger doesn't advance caster levels unless you're going Swift Hunter, which doesn't seem like Girard's shtick. I dunno, maybe he just went Ranger so he could look cool dual-wielding and then went straight Sorcerer.Well, I was trying to think of what Girard could get out of exactly two levels of Ranger. Which would be highly dependent on what he would get with that second level, and the combat style seemed the most likely candidate (compared to the more utilitarian increases to hit points, attack bonus, two saves and skill points).

[Jay R]

When people talk about spellcasters, people mean level 9 spells for full spellcasters, half for ranger/paladin casting and bards just get called bard casters.

Bards are Stratocasters.

[Forbiddenwar]

At least one level in ranger with either sorcerer or wizard classes would allow Girard to meet Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) requirements by level 6 (wizard) or level 7 (sorcerer), if he took the ranger levels separately. This would further delay his spellcasting by 1 level. However, it would give him full BAB progression for the Eldritch Knight levels (if he's ranger 2, wizard/sorcerer 8, and EK 10, he'd have 16 BAB by level 20, enough for 4 attacks per round with 1 higher BAB than Bards) and still meet epic spellcasting requirements by level 21.

Not the most efficient build, but it would certainly make his two swords far more than just decorative.

Wow, that looks broken. Good, I mean good. If you had to fit in 2 levels of ranger with sorcerer, it looks like it would be a good choice.

[Math_Mage]

Wow, that looks broken. Good, I mean good. If you had to fit in 2 levels of ranger with sorcerer, it looks like it would be a good choice.

Eh, level for level most full casters are better off with higher spell levels than higher BAB past level 5 or so. On the other hand, low optimization circumvents this somewhat, and high optimization can pretty much break the game with anything if you're working with standard encounter CR and WBL and so on.

[Fenice]

I always assumed Girard was a wizard. Because illusionist means specialist wizard to me.
Then I noticed that my avatar is called ElfSorcerer... I think he might indeed be a sorcerer.:smallbiggrin:

[Laroque]

I always just assumed he was a sorcerer. I never considered the possibility that we could be a wizard. Bard never crossed my mind, but the arguments kind of make sense. I still feel pretty certain that he's a sorcerer though. It just makes sense to me, and he has the dragon blood.