Are bloodlines worth it to advance hellfire?

[SaltyEmperorX]

I recently read though this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35642), and they mostly say, among other things, that bloodlines really are not worth it unless you are doing a hellfire warlock. ASSUMING that using a bloodline to advance HFW lvls is accepted, I am still wondering if it is worth it for me starting at lvl 5. I will not be doing the whole using str and power attack with eldritch glaive dealio, and I was considering either the devil or efreeti line. I will also (most likely) choose Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest over 2 lvls in binder for Nebarius should my DM allow it. The only other alternative to advancing HFW I would consider is Uncanny Trickster's 2/3 lvls because Legacy Champion is simply just too much. The main thing is that I will not be getting hellfire for 5 more lvls. While some of the things in bloodlines are nice, I am wondering if missing out on the BAB, saves (which are already pretty terrible), HD, and skill points would be worth it.

On a side note(s), I would assume you advance in normal EB progression with the bloodlines, but do you lose advancement in invocations known? And when bloodlines say you get no class features, that would be something like denying you Fiendish Resilience from Warlock, right? You would still get it at 8th lvl warlock (not Warlock 5/bloodline 3), but by that time the only differences between a Warlock 8 and a Warlock 8/Bloodline 3 would be your EB damage and whatever bonuses you get from the bloodline, yes? I just want to make sure I get this absolutely straight before using it at all.

Thank you to all responses and help, it is always appreciated.

EDIT: Somewhat unrelated, but has anyone heard of a warforged warlock? And can warforged even take bloodlines?

[eggs]

Bloodline levels do not affect character level, meaning that you gain EXP at an advanced rate for the periods where a character using bloodline levels is lags behind in experience.

If you calculate the relative progressions of a character with a major Bloodlines and and the rest of the party without them, the Bloodline user sits 1 level behind the rest of the party for approximately 10 levels, from ECLs 3 to 10, and ECLs 12 to 14. This swings a bit based on the specific difficulties of your encounters.

Given the benefits of Bloodline levels, such as advancing skill rank caps at an advanced rate and cranking things like CL and class features, and the benefits of the bloodlines themselves, I would definitely consider them worthwhile in many builds, including Hellfire Warlocks.

The exceptions are groups that play fast and loose with experience points by either distributing them evenly to characters of all levels by discounting exp altogether in favor of sporadically announcing "you all gain a level." Neither are RAW, but in my experience, both are as - if not more - common in practice. In either case, the opportunity cost of the Bloodline levels shifts from being a few thousand experience (which they're often worth) to being a full level (which they are almost never worth).

In terms of the differences between Warlock 8 and Warlock 8/Bloodline 2, things get somewhat wonky. The only things based on Warlock level are its effective caster level for invocations and for determining the level of Eldritch blast. This gets a bit funny because Warlock level does not directly affect EB damage, but levels in prestige classes advancing spellcasting do. So a Warlock 8/Bloodline 2 would have a 4d6 Eldritch blast, while a Warlock 5/Sentinel of Bharrai 3/Bloodline 2 would have a 5d6 Eldritch blast.

The moral is that Bloodlines are weird.

And just to nitpick, most games probably won't (or shouldn't) accept Warlock 8/Bloodline 3: The general consensus on Bloodline mechanics is that taking Bloodline levels "before character level 3" means immediately before. This is because taking all 3 bloodline levels before character level 2 changes them from an interesting tradeoff with a meaningful benefits and costs to a lopsided tradeoff with meaningful benefits and negligible costs (where the character catches up very quickly).

This handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167) gives a pretty good summary of how bloodlines work, in a bit greater detail.

EDIT:
Warforged Warlocks get plugged a lot, especially for "Iron Man" themed characters. They'd be weird with bloodlines though. But maybe if you made an Inevitable bloodline, you could make something interesting out of it.

[SaltyEmperorX]

I think I will just stick with plain, ole human for the extra skill points.



This handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167) gives a pretty good summary of how bloodlines work, in a bit greater detail.


He mentions in that thread ways to overcome the steep exp cost. What is he talking about? And he also mentions HD feats. What are those? I think I have a better handle on it, but I am still waiting to hear back from my DM...

[Seffbasilisk]

Bloodlines are rarely worth it, but like said, for a few specific class abilities they truly shine.


Hellfire warlocks add +2d6 damage per level. A well set-bloodline progression can add two more levels to this.

Which means, in 5 levels, adding +10d6 to your main attack.

That, my friend, is very shiny.

[The-Mage-King]

Meh. Legacy Champion is better.


Why, you ask?


Average BAB, good Will, D8 HD, and advances Hellfire Warlock every level except 1 and 7.


Meaning invocations and eldritch blast are included.

Also, class features.

[eggs]

He mentions in that thread ways to overcome the steep exp cost. What is he talking about?
The "steep exp. cost" is the experience point cost of the bloodline levels. For a Minor Bloodline, it's 11000 experience right before level 12, for a moderate bloodline, it's 16000 experience divided between the bloodline levels split between the periods immediately before level 6 and 12. For a Major Bloodline, it's 18000 experience split between the periods before levels 3, 6 and 12.

Basically to illustrate what happens:
A level 1 character with a major bloodline gains 1000 experience and hits level 2 as normal. The character gains a second hit die, gets the associated skill increases, etc.
Then the character gains 2000 experience, but instead of hitting level 3, they hit the first bloodline level. The bloodline level does not increase the character's character level or hit dice, but it does increase the skill cap and their effective class levels by 1.
When the character gains 2000 more experience, the character hits level 2 for real, but has a bloodline level giving +1 effective level to things like caster level.

So you can see that at 1000 experience, the character is on equal footing as the rest of the party.
At 3000 experience, the character essentially falls part of a level behind (a full "real" level, but with various benefits like the bloodline bonuses and the +effective class level bonus from the bloodline level)
At 5000 experience, the character matches the rest of the party's level, as well as having the additional bonuses from the bloodline. Though at level 3 specifically, it isn't the case, in most levels that the bloodlined character is below the rest of the party's level, he will gain experience at a slightly accelerated rate (I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it takes a character who's a level behind 8.8ish encounters to level up, where it takes the rest of the party 13.3).

The moral is that the Challenge Rating/Experience system is also weird.

And he also mentions HD feats. What are those? I think I have a better handle on it, but I am still waiting to hear back from my DM...
HD feats are the normal feats gained at 1, 3, 6, 9... hit dice. "Hit dice" are the key term here instead of "level" because Bloodlines make level-based terminology somewhat confusing, and it's really a creature's hit dice that determine its feat progression. Bloodline levels do not advance hit dice, so they do not advance feats.

I'd definitely use Bloodlines for this build, but I'm much friendlier to them (and the headaches they entail) than many players. Maybe even in addition to Legacy Champion. But again, some of the most common 3e houserules make Bloodlines almost unusable, so this is completely dependent on by-the-book Experience distribution.

[SaltyEmperorX]

I was actually asking about the ways to overcome the steep cost, but thank you for further clarification. I think I will need all I can get to get my DM to accept it as he is quite a stickler for rules. As it turns out, he will not accept the strongheart vest, but binder is good. I have read in different places that you need either 1 or 2 lvls in binder to get Naberius' ability healing. Ijust started going over the binder stuff, but if someone is able to clarify on that, it would also be appreciated.

And thank you to all that have replied so far. It is all a great help.

[Demon of Death]

I have read in different places that you need either 1 or 2 lvls in binder to get Naberius' ability healing. I just started going over the binder stuff, but if someone is able to clarify on that, it would also be appreciated.

You only need 1 level for his fast healing ability.

[eggs]

I was actually asking about the ways to overcome the steep cost, but thank you for further clarification
Sorry about that.
In that case, the two I can think of are Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) from Unearthed Arcana and really intensive crafting/exp-expending skullduggery (making minor experience expenditures to stay *just* below gaining a level when it's possible, in order to game the Experience system for that bit of extra bit of experience later on; this is really metagamey and doesn't have great payoffs).

[Darth Stabber]

I've seen some weird exp manipulations when I used to play with fellow optimizers, but since I am now gm'ing for more newbish players I haven't seen much along that line lately (they are just starting to understand the power of metamagic mitigation). I have reverted to the old fiat "every one level up before the next session", because I've gotten tired of all the math, and given how borked the cr system they were leveling up every other session, or were breezing through combat right and left.