[Pathfinder] Summoner's Eidolon help.

[QuidEst]

I enjoy converting my characters (of the written variety) into tabletop versions. The Summoner from Pathfinder is a great fit for one of them- she was inadvertently given Pandora's box when she was a kid. It'd be pretty cool refluffing the summoning, and even some of the casting, as getting monsters from the box.

Anyways, she's got a monster that I'd like to use as her Eidolon. Meet Ishkin.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e87/neesboy/IshkinMonsterShaded.png
Obviously serpentine base form with arms and claws, but beyond that, I'm not sure whether grapple/constrict is actually feasible, and all that hassle. While I tend to lean towards fluff first, crunch second, I also feel that I have a certain obligation to not suck too much. XP So I thought I'd see if folks here had advice on how to stat this charming fellow.

He does eventually grow to Large, as shown below, so he does make up for his base class a bit.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7120/avaulacomm.png

Some other notes:
Acid damage with his mouth-things would fit, but it's not necessary.
It's also a little annoying to be sinking several spells in dealing with damage, ability damage, etc. on him. Will a Cleric's generic lesser restorations / restorations do the trick? Otherwise it's going to be wands and/or Expanded Arcana.

[QuidEst]

I suppose I should also mention that I tend to stat characters around level eleven, since that's where a lot of interesting stuff happens. :smallsmile:

Any suggestions are welcome.

[Cieyrin]

Alright, so the Summoner is 11th, meaning we have an Eidolon with 9 HD, 14 Evolution Points and Serpentine Base Form.

Base Evolutions are: Bite, Climb, Reach(Bite), Tail and Tail Slap.

Obvious choices for Evolutions are Large (4), Limbs (Arms) (2), Claws (1) and Energy Attacks (Acid) (2), for 9 Evolution points spent.

For the remaining 5 points (possibly more if your Summoner takes the Half-Elf Alternate Favored Class Bonus or the Extra Evolution feat), it looks heavily armored, so Improved Natural Armor taken up to 3 times may be handy. Bite could be taken a second time to apply 1.5 Str, which'll be handy, since your base Str is 24. Pull and Trip would be a nice on your bite for getting creatures into its reach and stay there, since it's kinda slow. Grab and Constrict on Tail Slap, with Improved Damage, as well as the Final Embrace chain, can work rather nicely. Rend can bring power to your claws. You could even pursue Swallow Whole, though that would disallow Tail Slap having Grab, since you can only take it once, unfortunately. :smallannoyed:

I'd look at Power Attack and maneuver boosting feats that you want to pursue. For further ideas on where to go with it, I'd take a look over Saph's Summoner's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592), which is pretty good on covering everything for up to the APG but hasn't included UM or UC yet.

Hope that helps. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will. :smallwink:

[grarrrg]

Bite could be taken a second time to apply 1.5 Str, which'll be handy, since your base Str is 24.....

I'd look at Power Attack and maneuver boosting feats that you want to pursue.

Combat Reflexes.
Serpentine has great Dex and you already have a Reach(Bite) Evolution, you may as well make the most of it.

[Cieyrin]

Combat Reflexes.
Serpentine has great Dex and you already have a Reach(Bite) Evolution, you may as well make the most of it.

True, plus if Trip and Pull are pursued, that's just more of them being used.

[QuidEst]

Thanks guys! Still some questions…

Is the extra acid damage actually useful? It's not a huge priority. Against AC 18 and up (assuming I'm doing this right…) it does appear to replace Power Attack.

How practical is actually hitting with grab/constrict? The flat +10 on CMD checks seems problematic. I realize that the effects are pretty sweet if it works, but if Ishkin's just failing his grab attempts most of the time…

Is there a reason to apply constrict, etc. to tail slap? It certainly makes more sense, but Bite gets extra damage if I take the evolution, better range, plus it's a primary attack, so no -2 penalty on the attack roll. (Heh… grapple with face-tentacle things like an Ood.)
Which leads to the potential munchkinning of a free trip, giving them -4 on his free grapple, which leads to constrict, layered with the final embrace chain for double constrict damage (still at 1.5 times strength bonus), topped with Improved Damage and maybe acid for an extra damage die. Hmm. That seems a little excessive. :smalleek:

I'll pass on Swallow Whole. Doesn't really fit Ishkin very well.

[Cieyrin]

Thanks guys! Still some questions…

Is the extra acid damage actually useful? It's not a huge priority. Against AC 18 and up (assuming I'm doing this right…) it does appear to replace Power Attack.

Acid is a rarer energy so it'll more likely not be resisted against and it applies to all attacks, so it'll stack up, especially if you go for Rend. Plus nothing says you can't Power Attack at the same time. If you're worried about it, you could just Evolution Surge whatever Energy Attack you feel like Ishkin to have for that fight and free the Evolution points for other things, like Poison or something.


How practical is actually hitting with grab/constrict? The flat +10 on CMD checks seems problematic. I realize that the effects are pretty sweet if it works, but if Ishkin's just failing his grab attempts most of the time…

Grab and your size give boosts to grappling, as does your high Str, so you'll have a CMB of +21 before applying other boosts like Improved Grapple and the rest of that chain, not to mention increasing its Str beyond the base. Plus Grab is a free maneuver whenever you hit with the tail, so you're not wasting any time for having done so. Also that when you establish the grapple, you get +5 for being in control of the grapple and an effective +2 due to the grappling condition reducing the target's Dex, so I don't think you'll have any problems there.


Is there a reason to apply constrict, etc. to tail slap? It certainly makes more sense, but Bite gets extra damage if I take the evolution, better range, plus it's a primary attack, so no -2 penalty on the attack roll. (Heh… grapple with face-tentacle things like an Ood.)
Which leads to the potential munchkinning of a free trip, giving them -4 on his free grapple, which leads to constrict, layered with the final embrace chain for double constrict damage (still at 1.5 times strength bonus), topped with Improved Damage and maybe acid for an extra damage die. Hmm. That seems a little excessive. :smalleek:

Hmm, missed that Tail Slaps are secondary but I was doing it primarily so you do a sort of one-two maneuver of pulling/tripping the target in before grabbing and constricting with the tail, which should do adequate damage if you go the full Final Embrace, which will double constrict damage. It also leaves your bite and claws free for dealing with other opponents and for AoOing them with your extended bite range, which would otherwise be occupied with Grabbing one creature at a time.