Those poor human slaves

[Alex Warlorn]

Just wondering. But does anyone else remember the massive amounts of innocent human slaves still under the Goblin heel? I don't care if they're establishing their own civilization or not, I don't care if they've been treated like crude by all other species, there is no way they can just be LEFT THERE!

Because personally, I have the gruesome belief that any chance of the humans reclaiming their city have gone up in smoke. Okay. I'll accept that. That's the way civilization happens and how wars go. But seriously? I can NOT friggin accept that countless human slaves are being left to still rot under goblin control!

It feels like the narrative is just going to forget they exist and let the goblins have their city.

[Crisis21]

I have a feeling that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) little chekov's gun will come into play at some point.

[t209]

Even poorer, the slaves were butchered along with the resistance.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html
(let's pray that if the elf wizards teleported the liberated slaves back to the island, especially the old, the cripple, the no skillers, and the kids).
I hope Redcloak have his soul destroyed.

[Steward]

I don't think they'll be forgotten. It's kind of a big deal and I expect it to have a resolution, if only off-panel.The Giant is pretty detail-oriented.

[Idhan]

In the end... yeah? So?

Perhaps they live their lives and die as slaves. Like the slaves of Marcus Tullius Cicero, or the slaves of Harun Al-Rashid, or the slaves of Thomas Jefferson. Is it nice? No. Does the OotS world have some means of automatically correcting the injustices that we humans suffer (and commit) here on Earth? Not that I can tell.

Or maybe there will people who one day deliver humans from goblin enslavement --Spartacuses, Ali ibn Mohammeds, Soujourner Truths. Perhaps they will be humans who seek a bloody, genocidal vengeance on all goblins, whether slavers or not. Perhaps they will be human rebels who want to trade places, and become free and make the goblins their slaves instead. Perhaps they'll be human rebels seeking to escape to a land of their own where they can be free. Perhaps there could be nonviolent resisters seeking to call human and goblin alike to conscience. Perhaps the rebels will succeed. Perhaps they will be crushed once again. There could be a whole different webcomic about the humans living as slaves in Gobbotopia.

The point is, it sucks for the people living as slaves, but I don't see why you say "there is no way they can just be LEFT THERE!" As far as I can tell, yes, yes they can be left there.

[Math_Mage]

Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes bad things happen to humans (good or otherwise).

I would not find it narratively unacceptable for there to be slaves left in Azure City at the end of the comic. However, I feel that the resolution of the whole "The Plan For Goblin Equality" plotline may tie in to how Azure City turns out--goblins, slaves, and refugees all.

[SowZ]

Why is this any worse than the slaves/gladiators in Tyrannia? Because the masters in azure city have pointy teeth and green skin?

[t209]

A good thread for 20 strip anniversary of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html).
Ironically
I just aided the resistance to take back skyrim from the sellout tyrant empire even thought the game is greyscale and I prefer the empire (The "sellout" is to appease the pro stormcloaks). But I realize that the Imperial General is more like Thanh except his Second in command was killed. The rebel leader just butchered him for his story.

[ThePhantasm]

Why is this any worse than the slaves/gladiators in Tyrannia? Because the masters in azure city have pointy teeth and green skin?

Who said it was any worse?

[Kish]

Who said it was any worse?
I would have to say such is implied by the specific reference to human slaves in Gobbotopia, rather than, e.g., this thread bemoaning the fact that slavery exists in the OotS universe and abolishing it is not an expressed agenda for any protagonist (or character that we've seen, actually).

Also, t209, I've given up on ever getting an answer to why you haul in other fictional media nearly every time you post, but what's with randomly spoilering half of each post?

[Smolder]

I hope Redcloak have his soul destroyed.

Fat chance of that. Unless Malack kills him and Nergal eats his soul, he's pretty much guaranteed a place of prominence in the Dark One's afterlife army.

[fergo]

I would have to say such is implied by the specific reference to human slaves in Gobbotopia, rather than, e.g., this thread bemoaning the fact that slavery exists in the OotS universe and abolishing it is not an expressed agenda for any protagonist (or character that we've seen, actually).

Also, t209, I've given up on ever getting an answer to why you haul in other fictional media nearly every time you post, but what's with randomly spoilering half of each post?

I think it's because it contains spoilers for Skyrim. Some of us (actually, probably just me) haven't played it yet.

Except I don't know that they contain spoilers until after I read them, so yeah, not that useful :smalltongue:.

[Morty]

Fat chance of that. Unless Malack kills him and Nergal eats his soul, he's pretty much guaranteed a place of prominence in the Dark One's afterlife army.

Or, you know, the Snarl gets him. Unless Snarl doesn't really destroy souls, that is, but whatever it does to them they certainly don't end up in their proper afterlives.
As for the thread's premise - the story is hardly over, and the ultimate fate of the goblin race, and Gobbotopia with it, is yet to be decided. Claiming that "the narrative is just going to forget they exist" seems to me like making up things to complain about.

[ThePhantasm]

I would have to say such is implied by the specific reference to human slaves in Gobbotopia, rather than, e.g., this thread bemoaning the fact that slavery exists in the OotS universe and abolishing it is not an expressed agenda for any protagonist (or character that we've seen, actually).

I suspect the OP just didn't have Tyrinaria in mind, but would certainly feel the same way about the slaves Tarquin was burning to a crisp or sending to die in the arena, etc. Seems a bit harsh to me to assume that the OP is only decrying Gobbotopia slavery just because it is Goblins enslaving humans. If he explicitly says that, that's another thing.

[fergo]

It seems almost certain that the Order, or at least Elan, will be returning to the Empire of Blood, so the slavery issue there seems likely to be resolved*.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem likely that Team Evil have any real reason to return to Gobbotopia; and if they did, the Order are unlikely to follow. The Resistance is crushed, and even the Azurites don't really have any pressing urge to return. So it looks more likely that the slavery issue there will not be resolved, unless previously unmentioned plot elements emerge.



* Maaaaaaybe. Personally I don't think it's likely, unless there's some sort of "And everything wrong in the entire world is suddenly made better," type of ending.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I imagine Azure City/Gobbotopia won't be resolved in the course of the comic since it's no longer related to the principle narrative, but there's no reason to think that story is over - the Azurites and their remaining allies will want their city back, and Lord Hinjo is certainly not going to tolerate his people remaining slaves.

I predict a long and protracted off-panel war (supplemented with slave rebellions), barring some miraculous diplomatic negotiation and compromise between Hinjo and Jirix once Redcloak and the Crimson Mantle are destroyed. The latter would be vastly preferable, of course, but it seems pretty unlikely.

[B. Dandelion]

Dude, it hasn't even been 20 strips since we last left Gobbotopia, I think it's a bit premature to worry the narrative's gonna just forget about it.

[Manga Maniac]

I have a feeling that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) little chekov's gun will come into play at some point.

Chekov's gun is the phaser carried by Ensign Pavel Chekov in Star Trek.

Do you mean Chekhov's gun?

[t209]

Just pray that the elven resistance manage to teleport the freed slaves (especially commoners, old and crippled) back to the island.
Also to hope that Neo Azure City didn't go up in civil war.
We've seen bad things and right now, Azurites are butt monkeys and woobies.
P.S- I thought that the freed slaves were butchered along with the Azurite Resistance.

[zimmerwald1915]

I have a feeling that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) little chekov's gun will come into play at some point.
No. No it will not. Massive resistance by an oppressed people, in the absence of high-level characters, is not something that can possibly succeed in the OOTS-verse.

[SowZ]

I have a feeling that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) little chekov's gun will come into play at some point.

Also, I feel that gun has already been fired even if the clip hasn't yet been unloaded. The whole, 'slaves saying we are going to resist' thing fits in well with the resistance we already saw, considering the resistance was in the business of freeing slaves and likely contained a number of freed slaves. But as has been mentioned, a bunch of commoners don't stand much of a chance against even a handful of mid levels.

I think Rich wanted us to feel hopeful that the underdog humans would overthrow their overlords, put out some bait and foreshadowing, and then reality struck and the resistance was crushed. Redcloak just destroying a resistance which included some of the remaining paladins and a presumably high level elven party goes to show there is no hope for the people within Gobbotopia without major outside interference.

I also do not except to return to this plot line as it would be anticlimactic. We already watched a battle between a fairly prominent resistance and Gobbotopia. It played out well, with wins and losses for both sides and ended in a satisfying if grim way. Why rehash the same plot but this time without big players on both sides and without ANY chance of success?


Who said it was any worse?

Kish kind of covered this, yeah. I was saying why bring up the Gobbotopia slavery and ignore the rest?

[ThePhantasm]

Kish kind of covered this, yeah. I was saying why bring up the Gobbotopia slavery and ignore the rest?

I kind of responded to it, yeah. I was saying why assume that the OP ignored the rest because of some opinion about races that he did not explicitly convey?

[King of Nowhere]

maybe jirix can use them as bargaining chips with other human nations, but I'm not sure the other human nations would care much about the azurites. they're not their citizens, they're not important in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, the world will never be perfect. ootsworld had problems before the story started. the events in the story are likely to mnake the world a better place, but it will never be perfect and bad things will still happen.
Like slavery. Or random monsters destroing villages. Or evil darklord having their own plans. Or even more common everyday stuff.
it would be nice if the slaves would be freed, but it is not iportant for the story and for the world.

[rbetieh]

No. No it will not. Massive resistance by an oppressed people, in the absence of high-level characters, is not something that can possibly succeed in the OOTS-verse.

Slave rebellions; while satisfying from a narrative perspective, hardly work out anyways. The way you actually end slavery is through changing the minds of the general population. That usually happens through a religious or philosophical revival of sorts. Based on what we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), I would say freedom is far far away. Also, I don't really see why the comic has to end with freed slaves at all, not all loose ends need tying up, and the OOTS is not the Justice Society either. These 6 flawed characters don't have to solve all problems, it's not even possible. As for the remaining Azurites, I doubt that after the fall of the resistance and the death of 2 Elf infiltration bands, that they will find enough military strength to ever retake their home by force.

[t209]

Slave rebellions; while satisfying from a narrative perspective, hardly work out anyways. The way you actually end slavery is through changing the minds of the general population. That usually happens through a religious or philosophical revival of sorts. Based on what we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), I would say freedom is far far away. Also, I don't really see why the comic has to end with freed slaves at all, not all loose ends need tying up, and the OOTS is not the Justice Society either. These 6 flawed characters don't have to solve all problems, it's not even possible. As for the remaining Azurites, I doubt that after the fall of the resistance and the death of 2 Elf infiltration bands, that they will find enough military strength to ever retake their home by force.

I thought all the freed slaves were killed with the resistance.

[zimmerwald1915]

Slave rebellions; while satisfying from a narrative perspective, hardly work out anyways. The way you actually end slavery is through changing the minds of the general population. That usually happens through a religious or philosophical revival of sorts. Based on what we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), I would say freedom is far far away.
And yet power concedes nothing without a demand. The problem in a D&Dverse is that the power disparity between oppressor and oppressed is invariably so incredibly great (since the oppressors will have high level characters on their side and the oppressed will not) that as a practical matter making a demand will always be ineffectual. And really, class struggle as a theme or motif has had a very minimal presence in OOTS, particuarly compared to considerations of universal morality or racial prejudice. The exception being the jokes the Giant feels compelled to make about people who think class struggle should matter. I don't really expect anything different.

[[TS] Shadow]

The Giant has had kind of a problem with Redcloak ever since Start of Darkness; without spoiling anything, let's just say that he has a sympathetic past, enough for some people to think that he's in the right, even more than the Order itself. The slavery is there to remind people that Redcloak, while he might have a sympathetic background, is still Evil.

[ti'esar]

I have to say that I'm surprised at the number of people who seem to think we're never going to see Gobbotopia again. By Rich's estimate, there's at least two books to go - that's quite a lot of time for it to reappear.

[zimmerwald1915]

I have to say that I'm surprised at the number of people who seem to think we're never going to see Gobbotopia again. By Rich's estimate, there's at least two books to go - that's quite a lot of time for it to reappear.
It's not a matter of available time. It's a matter of remaining narrative. What in Gobbotopia remains that can change?

[ti'esar]

It's not a matter of available time. It's a matter of remaining narrative. What in Gobbotopia remains that can change?

Quite a few things, I would think. The Azurite-goblin conflict may be effectively over, but the entire meta-plot of goblins and their place in the world isn't - and even without that, the rift overhead (and its constant growth) strikes me as a very likely Chekhov's gun.

[t209]

Do you think Hobgoblins keep humans as pleasure slaves :smalleek:? It's kinda creepy since most slavery involves ugly backstory?

[SowZ]

Quite a few things, I would think. The Azurite-goblin conflict may be effectively over, but the entire meta-plot of goblins and their place in the world isn't - and even without that, the rift overhead (and its constant growth) strikes me as a very likely Chekhov's gun.

I didn't go through the archives to check, but I recall that the rift actually stopped growing a while ago. Still, a decent amount of time was spent on it and I do expect that at the very least the rift in Gobbotopia will become a plot point later on, even if the politics of the city never reach the forefront.


I kind of responded to it, yeah. I was saying why assume that the OP ignored the rest because of some opinion about races that he did not explicitly convey?

Well, he kept pointing out the injustice of humans under goblin control or humans under the goblin heel and never actually condemned slavery in and of itself.

[Math_Mage]

Do you think Hobgoblins keep humans as pleasure slaves :smalleek:? It's kinda creepy since most slavery involves ugly backstory?

The sort of question that does not need to be asked and that the Giant certainly will not answer, let alone in the affirmative. :smallyuk:

[Fallbot]

Do you think Hobgoblins keep humans as pleasure slaves :smalleek:? It's kinda creepy since most slavery involves ugly backstory?

Are 'pleasure slaves' a big thing in Skyrim or something? Why do you keep bringing them up?

Edit: For the record, no, I really don't think so.

[MReav]

Do you think Hobgoblins keep humans as pleasure slaves :smalleek:? It's kinda creepy since most slavery involves ugly backstory?

I think only hobgoblin sexual deviants would do so, because most of them probably find humans ugly and smelly.

[t209]

Are 'pleasure slaves' a big thing in Skyrim or something? Why do you keep bringing them up?

Edit: For the record, no, I really don't think so.

actually, I was starting to find fridge horrors after reading comic 827. It kinda affected my thinking though.

[Math_Mage]

actually, I was starting to find fridge horrors after reading comic 827. It kinda affected my thinking though.

:smallconfused: But there is literally nothing in strip 827 (or, well, any other strip) that suggests anything like what you're suggesting. And before you go there, no, it doesn't suggest Thanh/Niu either. :smallsigh:

[Gift Jeraff]

Do you think Hobgoblins keep humans as pleasure slaves :smalleek:?Well, I'm sure it's pleasing to watch them slip and impale themselves on weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), if that's what you mean.

[ThePhantasm]

Well, he kept pointing out the injustice of humans under goblin control or humans under the goblin heel and never actually condemned slavery in and of itself.

Well, the OP can return and clarify if he wants, but I feel like until he does you guys are over-reading it.

[t209]

:smallconfused: But there is literally nothing in strip 827 (or, well, any other strip) that suggests anything like what you're suggesting. And before you go there, no, it doesn't suggest Thanh/Niu either. :smallsigh:

Okay! I could ignore the human being used as sexual pleasure for goblins. (By 827 is that I began to think about negative speculation on azure city after the fall of the resistance).
Let's move to another one.
I thought all the slaves were liberated and died along with the resistance.

[Math_Mage]

It's not impossible that the 112 prisoners liberated by the jailbreak constituted all of the human slaves; however, it seems unlikely.

[SoC175]

maybe jirix can use them as bargaining chips with other human nations,Hm, you seem to suffer from a lack of slaves. Want some of ours to work them to death in your mines? In exchange just sign this trade treaty with Gobotopia :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

It's not impossible that the 112 prisoners liberated by the jailbreak constituted all of the human slaves; however, it seems unlikely.
Indeed, the numbers fail to add up.

[Gift Jeraff]

Furthermore, if those were the last remaining slaves, I'm sure someone in the comic would have commented on the fact that every single slave had been liberated, because that'd be a pretty amazing victory/defeat.

[rbetieh]

Hm, you seem to suffer from a lack of slaves. Want some of ours to work them to death in your mines? In exchange just sign this trade treaty with Gobotopia :smallbiggrin:

More like, economic engagement to reduce the need for slaves in the first place. The only way to free the slaves is that the Gobbos choose to free them. Cliffport is on the right track here, make the Gobbos realize that they dont need slaves and hope the gobbos dont just kill em. Of course seeing as they have zombies, they don't need slaves now, so I still dont understand why they have such a burning desire to exact revenge on humans by denigrating them so much....meh Im not a goblin and can't think like a goblin.

[zimmerwald1915]

Cliffport is on the right track here, make the Gobbos realize that they dont need slaves and hope the gobbos dont just kill em.
Cliffport's talking out of its rear if it says that it thinks trading with Gobbotopia will have any impact whatsoever on its slavery policy, just like Gobbotopia's talking out of its rear when it says that such a tack might work. That Cliffport is trading with Gobbotopia now is an incentive for Gobbotopia to maintain its policies as they stand, not to rock the boat.

[Jaros]

It's kinda creepy since most slavery involves ugly backstory?

I would think slavery itself qualifies as 'ugly backstory' :smallconfused:

[Eigenclass]

I would think slavery itself qualifies as 'ugly backstory'

Indeed it does. :-/

However, the really sad fact is that the human nations trading with Gobbotopia might practice this terrible institution themselves. Buggy Lou and possibly Belkar seemed pretty familiar with the practice of taking and trading slaves. Where were they selling them to, if Gobbotopia is the first official "monstrous humanoid" nation?

But, I'd like to think that the exiled Azurites and the other civilized nations are going to be able to ransom back. :-)

This is not without precedent in D&D. The Imaskari & Mulhorandi aren't really evil societies, but they allowed slavery. In a way, the presence of slavery in roleplaying games serves a purpose - many of us are blessed enough to have been born into a society where these terrible things don't exist, thanks to heroic people in the generations before our's...

Roleplaying's our chance to "experience" being a champion of the downtrodden, a great liberator, as a tribute to the great people that did this stuff in real life.

[MReav]

Indeed it does. :-/

However, the really sad fact is that the human nations trading with Gobbotopia might practice this terrible institution themselves. Buggy Lou and possibly Belkar seemed pretty familiar with the practice of taking and trading slaves. Where were they selling them to, if Gobbotopia is the first official "monstrous humanoid" nation?

The Western territories seem to practice slavery, and the Lizardfolk looked like they managed to hold power in at least one nation, if only temporarily (though that's not so much against the Lizardfolk so much as the instability inherent to the region).

[Forikroder]

Just wondering. But does anyone else remember the massive amounts of innocent human slaves still under the Goblin heel? I don't care if they're establishing their own civilization or not, I don't care if they've been treated like crude by all other species, there is no way they can just be LEFT THERE!

Because personally, I have the gruesome belief that any chance of the humans reclaiming their city have gone up in smoke. Okay. I'll accept that. That's the way civilization happens and how wars go. But seriously? I can NOT friggin accept that countless human slaves are being left to still rot under goblin control!

It feels like the narrative is just going to forget they exist and let the goblins have their city.

i think you might need a break from fantasy for a while

go camping or something

[Draconi Redfir]

Would you feel the same if they were Goblin slaves in a human city?

[t209]

Would you feel the same if they were Goblin slaves in a human city?

I think this will be good example for Cycle of war.
I took you as slaves then you take me as slaves. (Just an example)

[Narren]

More like, economic engagement to reduce the need for slaves in the first place. The only way to free the slaves is that the Gobbos choose to free them. Cliffport is on the right track here, make the Gobbos realize that they dont need slaves and hope the gobbos dont just kill em. Of course seeing as they have zombies, they don't need slaves now, so I still dont understand why they have such a burning desire to exact revenge on humans by denigrating them so much....meh Im not a goblin and can't think like a goblin.

Cuz they're evil, duh :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Of course seeing as they have zombies, they don't need slaves now,
I doubt very much that they have enough undead minions to do all the slave labor they want done, and in any case, Redcloak was unwilling to either: 1) let the prisoners go, 2) feed them without making them work, or 3) kill them all, so what else was he going to do?

[zimmerwald1915]

I doubt very much that they have enough undead minions to do all the slave labor they want done, and in any case, Redcloak was unwilling to either: 1) let the prisoners go, 2) feed them without making them work, or 3) kill them all, so what else was he going to do?
Except that unless the slave population is several orders of magnitude than we've been shown, Redcloak was quite willing to kill most of Azure City's population.

[SoC175]

More like, economic engagement to reduce the need for slaves in the first place. The only way to free the slaves is that the Gobbos choose to free them. Cliffport is on the right track here, make the Gobbos realize that they dont need slaves and hope the gobbos dont just kill em. Of course seeing as they have zombies, they don't need slaves now, so I still dont understand why they have such a burning desire to exact revenge on humans by denigrating them so much....meh Im not a goblin and can't think like a goblin.
Cliffport's talking out of its rear if it says that it thinks trading with Gobbotopia will have any impact whatsoever on its slavery policy, just like Gobbotopia's talking out of its rear when it says that such a tack might work. That Cliffport is trading with Gobbotopia now is an incentive for Gobbotopia to maintain its policies as they stand, not to rock the boat.
Actually Cliffport is not thinking that at all.

Claiming to be only associating with a rogue state so that not being isolated will cause it to change it's ways is an real-life excuse western countries are using all the time to justify their deals with such states.

It's just a prettier description than flat out stating "we want cheap Coltan for out tech-gadgets, we don't care how cruel warlords force children to mine it under inhuman conditions"

The comic was simply mocking that with regards to how other states justify making money from dealing with Gobotopia

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually Cliffport is not thinking that at all.

Claiming to be only associating with a rogue state so that not being isolated will cause it to change it's ways is an real-life excuse western countries are using all the time to justify their deals with such states.

It's just a prettier description than flat out stating "we want cheap Coltan for out tech-gadgets, we don't care how cruel warlords force children to mine it under inhuman conditions"

The comic was simply mocking that with regards to how other states justify making money from dealing with Gobotopia
I didn't say they believed their own propaganda. Indeed, they almost certainly do not. Certainly Gobbotopia doesn't.

[Forikroder]

I doubt very much that they have enough undead minions to do all the slave labor they want done, and in any case, Redcloak was unwilling to either: 1) let the prisoners go, 2) feed them without making them work, or 3) kill them all, so what else was he going to do?

the best thing about using zombie slave labour, when one of your more traditional slave labour drops dead from overwork, you can jsut raise him as a zombie and he can go right back to work immediately

[Lawyergoblin]

I think this will be good example for Cycle of war.
I took you as slaves then you take me as slaves. (Just an example)

Correct me if I am wrong, but what Draconi Redfir is talking about here is not: "What if the Azurites/someone else took Goblins as slaves after the Goblins took Human slaves." I'll bet he's wondering if people would raise a fit if "A human nation took Goblins as slaves." It has nothing to do with a "Cycle of War" at all. The question being asked is about slavery in the OOTS world and the readers reactions, not about anything the Azurites do.

I, for one, would be just as much against the enslavement of Goblins as I am the humans. I don't believe in slavery at all, no matter the side which does it.

[Warren Dew]

Why is this any worse than the slaves/gladiators in Tyrannia?
Why is it any better?

[zimmerwald1915]

Why is it any better?
From the perspective of the plot, characters, and themes of the story, both are equally irrelevant.

[LtNOWIS]

Would you feel the same if they were Goblin slaves in a human city?

I don't think it's realistic to expect humans to place equal value on human life and the lives of their nonhuman adversaries.

[Eigenclass]

I dunno, I think economic engagement might actually encourage Gobbotopia towards Lawful, if not necessarily Good practices.

Keeping slaves is ultimately a losing proposition in both moral and economic sense for several reasons. For starters, you're stupidly reducing the size of the market by denying people wages, which means fewer people out there spending money and consuming goods. Second, unless you have a renewable source of free or cheap labor, you're sabotaging your society by deskilling certain types of work, or creating a sense of entitlement where no one wants that type of work.

There's just no way for a misguided slave-holding economy to compete with more efficient nations - they'd create wealth so slowly that they'd swiftly get left behind.

Not to mention the folly of dividing your population into dominant and disenfranchised sectors, especially when your people are the victims of discrimination themselves - all other things being roughly equal, you're going to have a weaker military with fewer casters, or indeed, fewer individuals exceptional enough to have adventurer class levels.

Tongue-in-cheek comment it might have been, but in the case of Gobbotopia, I can see it working.

[Kish]

I don't think it's realistic to expect humans to place equal value on human life and the lives of their nonhuman adversaries.
And yet, somehow, lots of humans do place equal value on human life and the lives of nonhuman sapients, including (presumably) the person you're responding to.

...Probably (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12718550&postcount=120) also including Rich Burlew.

[B. Dandelion]

Although it's more a background nuance than major plot point, Cliffport's rationale doesn't quite seem to be "Gobbotopia uses slaves, but their prices are cheap." They changed their tune because the elves attacked Gobbotopia. I think either they want the goblin state to persist because for as long as the war goes on their primary competition will need to be diverting funds away from commercial production and into the military (a possibility I think is even more horrifying), or Gobbotopia represents an exclusive market that became too appealing to pass up. Or both. Either way, their profit margin is in exports, not imports.

I suppose the one good thing you could say about it is that since this doesn't directly tie Gobbotopia's economy to slavery, the idea that their trade partners might influence them politically isn't as self-evidently contradictory as in the "slaves make cheap goods" scenario (because if they got rid of slaves prices would go up). I wonder if it doesn't sort of approach the perils to the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mindset, where the elves being hostile towards Gobbotopia actually legitimized it in their eyes. ("Hmm, if those pointy-eared cutthroats hate 'em, they can't be all bad.")

[SowZ]

Why is it any better?

As far as how bad it ultimately is? No, it is equally wrong for the victims. As far as what it implies about the morality of the enslavers? Humans in this comic are frequently forgiven for valuing the lives of monster races far below that of humans. It is only fair that we should forgive goblins for devaluing humans with the same level of forgiveness. Goblins enslaving humans/humans killing goblins is part of a cycle of violence that goblins and Azurites have had for a while. Both sides are very wrong, but both sides have some justification and are acting emotionally and are responding to prejudices they have been raised with that are very difficult to overcome.

The slaves and gladiators in Tyrannia who are sentenced to death for ludicrous things? This is a cold, calculated decision by the government to torture/kill/enslave its OWN people in order to scare the people into submission and make a profit.


I don't think it's realistic to expect humans to place equal value on human life and the lives of their nonhuman adversaries.

Of course, it isn't fair to ask goblins to value human life as equal to their own, either.

[Alex Warlorn]

From the perspective of the plot, characters, and themes of the story, both are equally irrelevant.

Tell that to Elan.

[Vinyadan]

Given how complex ending such a story will be, I wouldn't think that we have seen the last of Gobbotopia, or that everything will go on there like it is now. The story is very complex, not only from a storyline point of view, but also because of how the characters are made to be perceived by the readers.
I think we should wait and see (and speculate, of course).

[zimmerwald1915]

Tell that to Elan.
Elan would agree with me. The slaves are nice window-dressing, but they do not drive the plot, do not shape the characters (though they can serve as objects through which characters can illustrate facets of themselves), and do not impact the major themes of the story. He'd probably word it nicer because he's that sort of person, but the slaves, whoever's holding them and wherever they're held, are universally irrelevant.

The story is not about slaves. Many of its major characters are slavemasters, but that's not quite the same thing, now is it?

[Alex Warlorn]

If the slaves were meaningless, he wouldn't have attacked his father over them.

[Jaros]

If the slaves were meaningless, he wouldn't have attacked his father over them.

He's not saying the slaves are meaningless, he's saying they're meaningless in terms of the narrative, that the presence or absence of slaves will have little effect on major plot points and they're unlikely to become a driving force in the quest for the Gates.

[zimmerwald1915]

Jaros gets it.

[Alex Warlorn]

He's not saying the slaves are meaningless, he's saying they're meaningless in terms of the narrative, that the presence or absence of slaves will have little effect on major plot points and they're unlikely to become a driving force in the quest for the Gates.

What part of <i> those poor </i> slaves didn't you get the first time? As in expressing sympathy towards them?

[Jaros]

What part of <i> those poor </i> slaves didn't you get the first time? As in expressing sympathy towards them?

I... understood that perfectly :smallconfused: I was explaining Zimmerwald's point, that they are not a major driving force of the plot.

What part of my post made you think I was saying they were undeserving of sympathy?

[rbetieh]

I doubt very much that they have enough undead minions to do all the slave labor they want done, and in any case, Redcloak was unwilling to either: 1) let the prisoners go, 2) feed them without making them work, or 3) kill them all, so what else was he going to do?

I really hope this isn't just Redcloaks will that they be enslaved. Redcloack never (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) Learns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html) (or I should say, he yo-yos between lessons). I would prefer this to be a Hobbo *thing* because they are bullies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html), and to think that the Hobbos would have enslaved the humans without Redcloak.

But even so, 'Topia isn't EoB, the slaves are refugees and I can't imagine there being very many of them left, the Azure fleet looked fairly extensive after all. And, the Paladins where doing everything they could to save everyone. With so few Slaves, it's not likely that the society relies on them much, by contrast we know that they had a lot more zombies at the end of the invasion, I figure it's easier to kill/animate the humans.

[Warren Dew]

Humans in this comic are frequently forgiven for valuing the lives of monster races far below that of humans.
To me it seems like the humans are never forgiven - no one thinks Tarquin keeps slaves because "what else was he going to do", the excuse Kish gives for Redcloak - and the wording of your own post essentially absolves the goblins of responsibility because their enslaving humans is just "part of the cycle of violence", despite the fact that humans in that alleged cycle have never kept goblin slaves. Meanwhile, humans who keep slaves get a full measure of blame for "a cold, calculated decision". That seems to me a clear double standard.


Both sides are very wrong, but both sides have some justification
The root for the word "justification" is "just", which slavery is not. What both sides have are rationalizations, at best.


I really hope this isn't just Redcloaks will that they be enslaved. Redcloack never (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) Learns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html) (or I should say, he yo-yos between lessons). I would prefer this to be a Hobbo *thing* because they are bullies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html), and to think that the Hobbos would have enslaved the humans without Redcloak.
Of course it's Redcloak's will - it's not like the hobbos are keeping the slaves secret from him. The whole reason the hobbos love Redcloak so much is that he empowers all their worst instincts.

[rbetieh]

Of course it's Redcloak's will - it's not like the hobbos are keeping the slaves secret from him. The whole reason the hobbos love Redcloak so much is that he empowers all their worst instincts.

I guess I should Clarify. I meant Redcloak ordered them to enslave the humans instead of killing them right then and there. This example would be Redcloaks "consent" more than his "will".

[SowZ]

To me it seems like the humans are never forgiven - no one thinks Tarquin keeps slaves because "what else was he going to do", the excuse Kish gives for Redcloak - and the wording of your own post essentially absolves the goblins of responsibility because their enslaving humans is just "part of the cycle of violence", despite the fact that humans in that alleged cycle have never kept goblin slaves. Meanwhile, humans who keep slaves get a full measure of blame for "a cold, calculated decision". That seems to me a clear double standard.


The root for the word "justification" is "just", which slavery is not. What both sides have are rationalizations, at best.

Unless you are arguing that keeping someone as a slave is more evil then murdering them, I am being equally fair to both sides. The Azurites are caught up in a circle of violence and have emotions tied up in their reasons for killing goblins just as the same goes for the goblins taking Azure City. I'm not absolving anybody. It is more a matter of everyone being wrong but not just evil because of it then it is a matter of everyone being innocent.

I am pointing out how if we are going to be understanding towards the humans who have unjustly killed goblins, we should also try and be understanding to the goblins enslaving humans. Tarquin keeps slaves soley for personal benefit. It was a weighed, rational decision. Humans slaughtering goblins and goblins enslaving humans both have a history and both view doing so as bettering their race/the world. This doesn't mean they are right, but they have a better reason than Tyrannia who does it to it's own people, which makes it worse because people in authority, while having a responsibility to do good towards all, have the responsibility doubly to ensure the good of those in their charge.

[B. Dandelion]

To me it seems like the humans are never forgiven - no one thinks Tarquin keeps slaves because "what else was he going to do",

No one, really? I have seen people throw out that excuse not only for Tarquin's keeping of slaves in the first place, but for setting them on fire for trying to escape.


Evil is defined by your culture. Many cultures, especially those from fantasy settings, practice slavery, and many slave owners are of good alignment. In these cultures, slaves are simply a beast of burden that can be a bit more autonomous in their work. Killing a runaway slave is akin to killing a rabid animal. It can no longer work, and has potential to become dangerous, so you put it down.

Yeah, clearly his hands were tied on that front. I mean he could have killed them in a less gruesome and painful way, but


It is a deterrent. The larger the shock, the bigger the deterrent. Killing them humanely wouldn't deter anyone.

While looking for threads around that period of time, by complete accident I also found a thread started by the OP of this one, which I thought was kind of... ironic. (No offense meant, Alex.) Although he's horrified at the idea of never coming back to the human slaves in Gobbotopia, he wonders whether Tarquin's victims should be liberated at all.


But the real problem is rooted in the very CULTURE that this land mass has!

So it will be a travesty if the slaves are not freed... in Gobbotopia. The idea of that situation being left intact is nightmarish. But when it comes to the suffering of slaves in Tarquin's empire, we need to take a more pragmatic and unemotional view. Because that situation is complicated. Because it's rooted in regional culture. Because...


There's also a chance things would get even worse.

...we're apparently taking it at a given that the slaves in Gobbotopia cannot be any worse off while that is a much riskier venture in the Empire where they're nonchalantly lit on fire.

[Wikimaster]

@B. Dandelion, let me get this straight: AW says that Redcloak's slaves should be freed, but Tarquin's slaves shoudn't. Well isn't that a blantant double standard.

@WarrenDew, yep, I can corroborate people making excuses for Traquin immolating slaves, using the same arguments being used to defend Redcloak. So no, we are not being reverse-speciest against humans, if that's your argument.

[Kish]

Indeed, I would turn "the humans are never forgiven" around--lots of people seriously suggest that the best thing for the Western Continent is that Tarquin be allowed to have everything he wants there, writing off all the innocent people tortured, enslaved, and killed as acceptable losses for bringing Tarquin's version of order to the continent.

Many fewer people suggest that Redcloak should not be overthrown. Of the few who do hope for Redcloak's ongoing reign over Gobbotopia, a tiny number (a tiny minority of a tiny minority) express willingness to accept the human slaves not being freed, generally as part of an "I'm a goblin" persona.

[The Pilgrim]

maybe jirix can use them as bargaining chips with other human nations, but I'm not sure the other human nations would care much about the azurites. they're not their citizens, they're not important in the grand scheme of things.

Actually, yes, they do care:
#702, panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)

That pannel pretty much settles the question arised by the OP: Eventually, the human nations who have agreed to stablish economic ties with Gobbtopia will influence the goblinoids to give up human slavery.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, yes, they do care:
#702, panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)
Panel 8 indicates how little the other nations care for the fate of the Azurites. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) illustrates the same[/url].


That pannel pretty much settles the question arised by the OP: Eventually, the human nations who have agreed to stablish economic ties with Gobbtopia will influence the goblinoids to give up human slavery.
Putting aside the question of whether the goblinoids will ever be open to such overtures, I see no indication that their trading partners will even try.

[rbetieh]

There is a huge difference between EoB's slavery and Gobbotopias. EoB enslaves any race (we have seen humans kobolds and lizards) for reasons we are still not aware of and Gobbos enslave only former Azurites that were once their enemies. We know they have no objection to trading with other human nations or the other PC races.

I speculate that EoB has a slavery policy that is similar to the the people who provided Tarquin his name. In pure LE fashion, slavery is a punishment for certain crimes. Maybe it's not paying a debt or a tax, we don't know.

This is very different from Gobbo policy, I don't think there are Goblin slaves in gobbotopia, we have seen Goblin political dissidents but they haven't exactly been toiling in the fields.

The other major difference is the numbers. Gobbotopia can't have a large number of slaves. They have a bunch of remnants from a war, and it has been 1 year, so the population can only have shrunk. Further, we have not yet seen evidence of slavers or a slave trade in Gobbotopia. Cliffport being one of the continents trade hubs, and also being against slavery, points to there being a difficulty in establishing strong trade routes for the practice. Bleedingham on the other hand is the trade hub of the western continent.

All of this makes the Goblin form of slavery more bothersome than the Western continents, I would say. That said, the story does not need this loose end tied up, and we will see if Jirix doesn't tie this up for us on his own.

[The Pilgrim]

Panel 8 indicates how little the other nations care for the fate of the Azurites. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) illustrates the same[/url].

They care nothing for the fate of the Azurite Civilization, but that doesn't mean they care nothing about a nation enforcing human slavery.

While other human nations are impied to have recognized Gobbtopia out of fear of the Lich, Cliffport refused to recognize Gobbtopia, mainly on the grounds of the human slavery question.

They yeld only because they learn Gobbtopia is at war with someone Cliffport is at a long-term trade-war with - the Elves. And even then, it's implied that Cliffport has openly stated they plan to influence Gobbtopia's "position on human slavery through economic engagement".

So, Cliffport cares. They first refuse to recognize the gobbos. Later, they learn that Cliffport and Gobbtopia have a common enemy, and that Gobbtopia may be an useful ally - certainly more useful than the former, elven-allied, Azure City. Since the human slavery question is the main hurdle in the normalization of their mutual relations, they just plan to buy them off the use of human slaves.

[Jaros]

They care nothing for the fate of the Azurite Civilization, but that doesn't mean they care nothing about a nation enforcing human slavery.

While other human nations are impied to have recognized Gobbtopia out of fear of the Lich, Cliffport refused to recognize Gobbtopia, mainly on the grounds of the human slavery question.

They yeld only because they learn Gobbtopia is at war with someone Cliffport is at a long-term trade-war with - the Elves. And even then, it's implied that Cliffport has openly stated they plan to influence Gobbtopia's "position on human slavery through economic engagement".

So, Cliffport cares. They first refuse to recognize the gobbos. Later, they learn that Cliffport and Gobbtopia have a common enemy, and that Gobbtopia may be an useful ally - certainly more useful than the former, elven-allied, Azure City. Since the human slavery question is the main hurdle in the normalization of their mutual relations, they just plan to buy them off the use of human slaves.

Perhaps, but you could also interpret it that the slavery was definitely something they didn't like, but after the Elven attack they decided they were far more beneficial allies. The 'influence their position' statement could be a hollow promise so they can gain a useful ally without being seen to condone slavery

[Warren Dew]

Unless you are arguing that keeping someone as a slave is more evil then murdering them
Killings are not necessarily murders. All of the mass killings by goblins and humans have been parts of wars, so there's a reasonable argument that they are justifiable, and thus not murder. No such argument exists for the slavery.


No one, really? I have seen people throw out that excuse not only for Tarquin's keeping of slaves in the first place, but for setting them on fire for trying to escape.
I notice that none of your quotes actually excuses Tarquin for keeping slaves in the first place, which was what I was talking about. "If he's going to keep slaves, then punishing them makes sense" is different from "Keeping the slaves makes sense."

I notice few object to the whipping elderly slaves for the fun of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) thing.

By the way, several people have mentioned Cliffport's relations - was this in a comic I missed?

[B. Dandelion]

I notice that none of your quotes actually excuses Tarquin for keeping slaves in the first place, which was what I was talking about. "If he's going to keep slaves, then punishing them makes sense" is different from "Keeping the slaves makes sense."

Basically because the first thing I did was go to the thread for "Yes, Apparently" and look for the apologists. I haven't even gotten through the whole thread yet. I thought if I found people apologizing for that, it'd be clear people apologized for anything Tarquin does. We already have an example in this very thread of someone speculating the slaves in the EoB were most likely criminals of some sort.

You want me to look for more quotes, I will, though it's getting a bit ridiculous when I keep finding things like this from you:


I would say the reaction to Elan's speech is our first sign. Most of the people look mildly unhappy after his speech, but not excruciatingly unhappy, suggesting that those people are oppressed, but only mildly.

You have been rather consistently willing to look for explanations and concoct interpretations that minimize the negative impact Tarquin's had, while doing pretty much the exact opposite for Redcloak. And my entire point was that this board does not embrace a collective double standard. Some individuals may -- in being willing to apologize for one LE dictator but not another -- but that produces evidence for people having a double standard in both possible combinations. I think at least part of the reason you have such a strong perception of bias is that you find it intensely irritating when people apologize for Redcloak, which causes you to remember those incidents far more than you do the similar apologies for Tarquin, whom you're somewhat indifferent toward. In short you are projecting your own double standard.


I notice few object to the whipping elderly slaves for the fun of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) thing.

In both instances I would assume the default position is to disapprove. I only posted non-farcical responses that were specifically apologizing for the behavior, which did mean skipping some posts that were basically praising Tarquin for his evil style instead of arguing the behavior wasn't evil. In 511's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65968), there don't seem to be any defenses of the practice that weren't obviously "hooray for evil" jokes. Also note that the goblin wasn't able to actually whip the slave, and that the whipping, while gratuitously cruel, wouldn't have been fatal. Both the tone and the severity of the situation were different, and so people's reactions were different.


By the way, several people have mentioned Cliffport's relations - was this in a comic I missed?

Some people have discussed 702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) when Cliffport acknowledged Gobbotopia's sovereignty and agreed to trade, on the ostensible premise that they could influence their position on slavery through economic engagement.

ETA:

As for slavery, well it originated as a somewhat more humane solution on what to do with prisoners of war and conquered peoples instead of just wholesale slaughter and massace. And this region of the Ootsverse is the most politically unstable part of all, from what we can tell the slaves may have been loyalists of the defeated kingdoms who where absorbed into the three empires tarquin and his party made... Just my thoughts:smallsmile:

There you go. "Tarquin had to keep slaves or else massacre them all."

[Wikimaster]

Can I summarize this? Here we go: Here is proof that people were apologizing for Tarquin, with one person on this thread suggesting that the EoB slaves deserved it while Gobbotopia slaves don't. You yourself tried to minimize Tarquin's actrocities while not doing the same for Redcloak. Paladinofshojo made an excuse for Tarquin's actions that was worse than any that was made for Redcloack.

[B. Dandelion]

Can I summarize this? Here we go: Here is proof that people were apologizing for Tarquin, with one person on this thread suggesting that the EoB slaves deserved it while Gobbotopia slaves don't. You yourself tried to minimize Tarquin's actrocities while not doing the same for Redcloak. Paladinofshojo made an excuse for Tarquin's actions that was worse than any that was made for Redcloack.

Also "the Cliffport stuff's from 702." That would be a fair tldr version, yeah.

(Although it's not so much that what Paladinofshojo said was worse than anything said in Redcloak's defense -- a lot of ridiculous things have been said in Redcloak's defense. The point was he said pretty much exactly what Warren Dew claimed nobody ever said.)

[SowZ]

Killings are not necessarily murders. All of the mass killings by goblins and humans have been parts of wars, so there's a reasonable argument that they are justifiable, and thus not murder. No such argument exists for the slavery.

Doesn't fly since both the Goblins and the Azurites have intentionally killed civilians.

[Kish]

(Although it's not so much that what Paladinofshojo said was worse than anything said in Redcloak's defense -- a lot of ridiculous things have been said in Redcloak's defense. The point was he said pretty much exactly what Warren Dew claimed nobody ever said.)
Actually, while I wouldn't have said this just to Warren since he seems to have made up his mind, I would like to point out that I listed three alternatives to enslaving the humans which Redcloak was unwilling to take--"keep them as prisoners without making them work," "let them go," "kill them all." One of the first two is certainly what Redcloak should do, if morality entered into it.

Tarquin...certainly has at least as many options, from which he chooses, "Keep them as slaves," and also "Torture them to death if they try to escape." Without knowing the details of how the Empire of Blood slaves became slaves, we don't know if he has more options which Redcloak doesn't have, though I'd personally guess "Yes."

[t209]

There are azurites who were in the city but not enslaved, Half Orcs.
Maybe Half Orcs were oppressed and decided to side with Gobbotopia who actually treats them better. Also notice that there is not Half Orc in Azurite Army even though they have combat prowess (or segregated). Even though this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) shows their interracial marriages, it might be secret or they got lynched afterwards (We could see it in Therkla's PDF or she hates being a club swinging barbarian).
War and XPs shows that 5% of azurites are half orcs.

[rbetieh]

Now if you see the difference between what Tarquin is doing and what Redcloak/Hobbos are doing you are a Tarquin Apologist then?

It seems clear that not all of those EoB slaves are conquered peoples. It seems clear that Tarquin is using slavery as one deterrent in his criminal justice system. Evil thing to do? Yes. Is his system even just? No. Who cares, he thinks its just and he is the LAW. But, if these escaped slaves are in fact people escaping their lawfully designated sentence, then they are escaped criminals, who should be punished more severly to prevent others from trying the same. What is more severe than complete loss of Liberty? There you have it, this is why Tarquin does what he does. Evil as can be, twisted as can be, but T sleeps at night because everything he did was straight up L-awful.

On the other Hand, Why does Redcloak do what he does? Petty Revenge? Straight up Racism? Some belief that Goblins are "due"? If he had any sense at all he, would have just killed the captives and have been done with it. Now, again, if this is just Hobgoblins doing their Bully thing, then this is another matter. But the situations really are different. Tarquin has a LE justification a bad one that most readers wont swallow but one nonetheless; one that readers should at least understand. Redcloak and the Hobbos don't care to have a justifcation, they are doing it because they can. That is different, and you all should take that into account.

[hamishspence]

If he had any sense at all he, would have just killed the captives and have been done with it.

To quote The Giant, in Don't Split The Party:

"For all his evil deeds, Redcloak can't bring himself to banish a bunch of humans to oblivion when it won't even help his cause."

Similar principle applies to just killing the captives.



Now if you see the difference between what Tarquin is doing and what Redcloak/Hobbos are doing you are a Tarquin Apologist then?

If you say Tarquin "has a justification that readers should at least understand" whereas Redcloak & the hobgoblins "are doing it just because they can- which is worse" then, maybe.


Tarquin has a LE justification a bad one that most readers wont swallow but one nonetheless; one that readers should at least understand. Redcloak and the Hobbos don't care to have a justifcation, they are doing it because they can. That is different, and you all should take that into account.

[B. Dandelion]

Now if you see the difference between what Tarquin is doing and what Redcloak/Hobbos are doing you are a Tarquin Apologist then?

I contest that you are not seeing a difference but inventing one. They are both keeping slaves. Neither has explicitly justified the practice. In Tarquin's case, you're willing to speculate on the existence of motives that would make the practice "understandable", but you insist the lack of an explicit justification in Redcloak's case is proof positive he can't have one at all.

Why should I have to assume Tarquin isn't just keeping slaves because he can, that he has a liking for the "simple elegance of enslavement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html)," to borrow a term from Belkar?

[theNater]

It seems clear that not all of those EoB slaves are conquered peoples.
Based on what? Remember, the entire western continent is engaged in constant conquest and reconquest; Tarquin even reconquers his own kingdoms occasionally in order to keep up appearances.

It seems clear that Tarquin is using slavery as one deterrent in his criminal justice system.
Based on what? As far as I recall, the only deterrent we've seen is being thrown into the gladiatorial arena.

[Kish]

Now if you see the difference between what Tarquin is doing and what Redcloak/Hobbos are doing you are a Tarquin Apologist then?
That phrasing begs the question.

[t209]

There are azurites who were in the city but not enslaved, Half Orcs.
Maybe Half Orcs were oppressed and decided to side with Gobbotopia who actually treats them better. Also notice that there is not Half Orc in Azurite Army even though they have combat prowess (or segregated). Even though this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) shows their interracial marriages, it might be secret or they got lynched afterwards (We could see it in Therkla's PDF or she hates being a club swinging barbarian).
War and XPs shows that 5% of azurites are half orcs.

How about these "azurites"?

[Warren Dew]

You want me to look for more quotes, I will, though it's getting a bit ridiculous when I keep finding things like this from you:
The quote is about the citizens of the Empire of Blood, not the slaves - the equivalent of the hobgoblins of former Azure City, not of the slaves there.

I challenge you to find a quote from me that indicates that I consider the hobgoblins of Gobbotopia are even "mildly oppressed" by Redcloak. I think you'll find that I consider the hobgoblins even less oppressed than the people of the Empire of Blood. If anything, that's an example of me giving Tarquin less benefit of the doubt than I give Redcloak, whom I believe I recently characterized as empowering his subjects rather than oppressing them.


There you go. "Tarquin had to keep slaves or else massacre them all."
Okay, so there was one. My recollection is that a lot fewer people agreed with Paladinofshojo on that than agree with Kish's saying the exact same thing about Redcloak.

[rbetieh]

That phrasing begs the question.

I did not use my own premise as proof of a preposition, so no it does not. The question remains open. Are all people who see a difference between these two situations simply trying to make excuses for Tarquin? Not that it matters, it seems clear that people have decided that they don't need to understand, just hate. At this point I wonder why the Giant wastes his time giving his characters personalities and motivations at all when it seems clear that a faceless dark-hooded figure with the word "Evil" on his chest would suffice.

[B. Dandelion]

The quote is about the citizens of the Empire of Blood, not the slaves - the equivalent of the hobgoblins of former Azure City, not of the slaves there.

I know, but I brought it up because I thought it was a weak argument that seized on spurious evidence in order to reach a conclusion that in some aspects, Tarquin isn't all that bad. That you would do this for one aspect suggests you'd do it in others.


I challenge you to find a quote from me that indicates that I consider the hobgoblins of Gobbotopia are even "mildly oppressed" by Redcloak. I think you'll find that I consider the hobgoblins even less oppressed than the people of the Empire of Blood. If anything, that's an example of me giving Tarquin less benefit of the doubt than I give Redcloak, whom I believe I recently characterized as empowering his subjects rather than oppressing them.

In the one case you are suggesting there is "some" oppression going on when there is explicitly oppression going on.

In the other you are not making up a charge the comic itself never did either.

I'm glad you're not making up charges to stick to Redcloak, but that's not an indication you give him a "fair" benefit of the doubt compared to what you give Tarquin.


Okay, so there was one. My recollection is that a lot fewer people agreed with Paladinofshojo on that than agree with Kish's saying the exact same thing about Redcloak.

I was taking on your "no one" charge. You said no one said it. I said, they don't just apologize for keeping slaves, they apologize for burning them alive! I thought that would cover it, since unless you thought holding slaves in the first place was valid, Tarquin would be killing them for something not recognized as a crime. But I had to find someone apologizing for the slavery, and only the slavery. That person was found. Mission accomplished.

Finding additional quotes becomes somewhat difficult simply due to the fact that this board frequently becomes unworkable for 20-minute stretches at a time.

Even I am not crazy enough to try and work out a numbers challenge for which villain generates the most frequent excuses -- my spreadsheet has too many columns as it is. Belkar and Redcloak definitely have a head start on Tarquin, but he's put in a good showing for a relatively recent character.


I did not use my own premise as proof of a preposition, so no it does not.

Kish took issue with your phrasing.


Now if you see the difference between what Tarquin is doing and what Redcloak/Hobbos are doing you are a Tarquin Apologist then?

If you see the difference. Not if you see a difference. You see the difference that presumably must exist, except the very problem with the argument is that we don't think there's a difference at all.

[Warren Dew]

It seems clear that Tarquin is using slavery as one deterrent in his criminal justice system.
What evidence do you have for this? We've seen criminals in prison who are forced to fight to the death, but I don't remember anything indicating that some of them end up as regular slaves instead.


In the one case you are suggesting there is "some" oppression going on when there is explicitly oppression going on.

In the other you are not making up a charge the comic itself never did either.
The comic doesn't indicate that everyone in the Empire of Blood is oppressed, just that some people there are. And absolutely there are people who are shown to be oppressed by Redcloak - enslaved, even - just not the ruling class of goblinoids.

Your apparent belief that one land is oppressive and the other is not is simply ignoring the evidence that the comic shows.

[Kish]

I did not use my own premise as proof of a preposition, so no it does not.

Yes, as a matter of fact you did. "see the difference" presumes that the difference you're claiming is there. If you'd said "believe there is a difference," you wouldn't have been begging the question.

--I also boggle at the assertion that Redcloak would be better if he'd chosen "kill them all," but hey.

[B. Dandelion]

The comic doesn't indicate that everyone in the Empire of Blood is oppressed, just that some people there are.

The spectators are among the oppressed. Explicitly. They are to be distracted from the oppressive regime (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html). Elan gets into detail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0776.html). You wished to suggest they, meaning the spectators, were only mildly oppressed based on what I consider flimsy reasoning.


And absolutely there are people who are shown to be oppressed by Redcloak - enslaved, even - just not the ruling class of goblinoids.

Your apparent belief that one land is oppressive and the other is not is simply ignoring the evidence that the comic shows.

I think you know very well I never claimed Gobbotopia isn't oppressive to anyone. I said you did not make a charge the comic itself has never made. That charge being, specifically,


I think you'll find that I consider the hobgoblins even less oppressed than the people of the Empire of Blood.

[rbetieh]

Yes, as a matter of fact you did. "see the difference" presumes that the difference you're claiming is there. If you'd said "believe there is a difference," you wouldn't have been begging the question.

--I also boggle at the assertion that Redcloak would be better if he'd chosen "kill them all," but hey.

Splitting of hairs. Sight conveys no airs of certainty in the American English dialect that I am aware of. The correct word to have shown presupposition is "know" or "can tell". But I am reasonably certain you are aware of this.

Yes, both he and his Gobbotopia would have been better without the stigma of having had to use Human slaves to achieve a successful state. Redcloak would have been a leader in Goblin self-sufficiency without them. With them, he is a petty, revenge-seeking leader. Not to say that Tarquin isn't Petty, lest you try that argument next....