Getter Emperor vs. Warhammer 40,000 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Seraph

2012-03-31, 11:04 PM

I've been reading the Getter Robo manga, and I figured this would be a fun matchup.

In the blue corner:

The galaxy of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Yes, the whole thing. You know about them already, they get pimped out in vs. threads enough for you to have a good idea of their capabilities. for quick reference:

-This is at the setting of the tabletop, so the GEOM is currently a mostly dead chunk of long pork hooked up to a life support city, and is thus a tactical nonentity.
-its about halfway between two of Failbaddon's attempts at conquest, so Chaos are not particularly massed or weakened.
-in general, the rest of the forces of the galaxy are in a general sense of equilibrium, not at their peak but not at their weakest either.

In the orange corner:

The Getter Emperor.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Darkseraph15/GetterEmperor.png

yes, that's a moon by its shoulder. no, its not a trick of perspective, because the Emperor just got done eating its parent planet.

The Getter Emperor is the ultimate form of Getter Robo, the direct inspiration of the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and generally considered by mecha fans to be one of the most terrifying machines of the genre.

The Getter Emperor represents the ultimate expression of the Getter Rays, a planet-sized machine formed when the Shin Getter fused with Mars. The Getter Emperor is formed of three gigantic starships and a massive support fleet of Getter Machines, with faster-than-light travel abilities.

The Getter Emperor is incredibly powerful, for a few reasons. Firstly, its sheer brute force power. One of the Getter Emperor's very first scenes involved Emperor Machine 1, one of the three primary ships of the Getter Emperor, obliterating the moon with a Getter Beam in a single shot. And that was just one of the component machines, not even the full Emperor.

Secondly is the Emperor's combination ability. While the Emperor's component ships can combine into multiple forms with different capabilities, that is not what I'm referring to. I am instead referring to the Emperor's offensive combining.

You see, one of the Emperor's trademark attacks is to simply absorb an opponent into itself. That image up above, where the Getter Emperor ate a planet? It did that by just ramming said planet with its component ships and adding the planet's mass to its own. The Getter Emperor can do this with any matter, even living beings, and it was shown off first in the Getter Robo Go manga when the Shin Getter, the Emperor's predecessor, absorbed one of its pilots and then intercepted a nuclear missile by ramming it midflight and eating it. quite simply, anything that comes into physical contact with the Getter Emperor is running a great risk of being absorbed.

oh, and as a side-effect of this ability? The Emperor is constantly absorbing spacedust and micrometeors in such quantity that it is constantly getting noticeably bigger.

The scenario:

The Getter Emperor Fleet is dumped into deep space by flying through one of the Subspace Tears in Plot-Space-Time that occasionally show up in the Getter Robo saga. A nearby Imperium patrol vessel, believing that the Getter Fleet is a chaos force, sends a message to the Imperium before engaging the fleet and being destroyed. The Emperor now believes that the forces of this universe are Hostile to them.

what happens?

turkishproverb

2012-04-01, 01:29 AM

The Ideon destroys them all.

Getter Emperor is far stronger, but then his power is a threat to the multiverse...

Trixie

2012-04-01, 07:38 AM

Is Getter Emperor immune to Warp Storms? If not, someone fires a Vortex Missile into him, portal to Immaterium opens, Daemons suck him inside and eat him. End of story.

Also, is the 'eating' ability confined to his surface? Or is it working anywhere in him? Is it always on, or does it need to be activated? Does it work on someone in adamantium/ceramite armor? Because Space Marines ended similar threat by ramming Battle Barge (a Battleship) into it, invaded insides and destroyed it from inside with fusion charges.

Then, there are Necrons, who might not like an incursion, who have technology millions of years more advanced than this, and Eldar, who are even better than IoM in Warp tech, and who can send you to be eaten by Daemons by using their lightest guns, not complex, expensive missiles.

Oh, and it that attracts attention of even a single Waagh! and a few orks manage to get inside... Have fun fighting ork infestation for the rest of its existence. If they won't take it over as Gork (or Mork) avatar.

Then, there is Chaos. This eats any matter? Tzeentch asks Ahriman to bind a few Greater Daemons into piece of rock, throw it into Getter so it absorbs them, a week later whole thing grows eight-pointed star patterns and bird-like feathers, unless it has some sort of supernatural defenses.

Really, the best way of fighting Warhammer universe is with big, more advanced and competent army, like Star Wars one, singular super-weapons have a habit of eating shots from long forgotten, one use super-weapons lying around on some Forgeworld/Craftworld or other, making them kind of impractical.

Comet

2012-04-01, 08:19 AM

Speaking of pure destructive might, I think Getter Emperor pretty much brings ruin to everything once it gets to full speed. This is why a certain civilization had to resort to time travel in an attempt to stop it, since the Emperor machine itself cannot be brought down.

On the other hand, though, I see the forces of Chaos being the ultimate winner here. The Getter rays are basically pure passion and chaotic lifeforce made manifest and any given pilot of a Getter machine is likely to be utterly insane with rage and bravado. There's plenty of material there to be leveraged by any Chaos god.

Or, you know, the Orks get their hands on it and then the real fun starts.

Misery Esquire

2012-04-01, 09:31 AM

Or, you know, the Orks get their hands on it and then the real fun starts.

Think of the real horror ; Where are they going to get all that red paint?

That's one heck of a lineup at the paint mixer in Sears. :smalltongue:

Seraph

2012-04-01, 11:08 AM

Is Getter Emperor immune to Warp Storms? If not, someone fires a Vortex Missile into him, portal to Immaterium opens, Daemons suck him inside and eat him. End of story.

assuming the Emperor doesn't eat them and come back as an even bigger machine thats now partially made of chaos daemons.

Also, is the 'eating' ability confined to his surface? Or is it working anywhere in him? Is it always on, or does it need to be activated? Does it work on someone in adamantium/ceramite armor? Because Space Marines ended similar threat by ramming Battle Barge (a Battleship) into it, invaded insides and destroyed it from inside with fusion charges.

oh no, it can absorb anything inside its body. I haven't read all of Getter Robo Arc because it isn't translated, but if I remember the synopses correctly, a boarding party managed to get inside it only to get eaten by the walls.

Then, there are Necrons, who might not like an incursion, who have technology millions of years more advanced than this, and Eldar, who are even better than IoM in Warp tech, and who can send you to be eaten by Daemons by using their lightest guns, not complex, expensive missiles.

again, assuming that the Daemons are the ones who end up doing the eating.

Oh, and it that attracts attention of even a single Waagh! and a few orks manage to get inside... Have fun fighting ork infestation for the rest of its existence. If they won't take it over as Gork (or Mork) avatar.

I assume you have not ever seen Ryouma Nagare. That man is basically a Warboss in human form, and the phrase "I punched them in the face and now we're friends" may very well become relevant. If not, well, see aove for the Getter's response to a boarding party.

Then, there is Chaos. This eats any matter? Tzeentch asks Ahriman to bind a few Greater Daemons into piece of rock, throw it into Getter so it absorbs them, a week later whole thing grows eight-pointed star patterns and bird-like feathers, unless it has some sort of supernatural defenses.

Getter Rays are essentially the Express Train Momentum of Human Will and Evolution. I think that counts as a fairly hefty supernatural defense.

Think of the real horror ; Where are they going to get all that red paint?

its already red. Ryouma knows his ****.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-01, 11:37 AM

Isn't this just the latest iteration of the 'Warhammer 40K can be beaten by an omnipotent anime character/enemy/monster' that seems to arise every so often?

Comet

2012-04-01, 11:54 AM

Isn't this just the latest iteration of the 'Warhammer 40K can be beaten by an omnipotent anime character/enemy/monster' that seems to arise every so often?

The difference between Getter and Gurren Lagann, the most obvious omnipotent Japanese cartoon entity these days, is pretty much one of thematics.

Gurren Lagann was very transparently about "impossible odds can always be overcome with enough screaming, hope and drills", which made it the direct opposite of 40k's "everything is bleak and there is only war and pessimism". So there was no contest there.

Getter, however, is less clear about its message. Granted, the author never finished the manga story so we can't know which way he intended to ultimately go on the idealistic/cynic scale. But there were plenty of hints in place to suggest that pure destructive force and manly determination against all odds were, in fact, as much of a threat to the universe as the bad guy aliens that made it necessary for mankind to use the Getter rays in the first place.

Hence my point about the Chaos gods. The Getter pilots are a pretty unbalanced lot and the Getter rays themselves are very seductive and chaotic in nature. So I really do see this ending pretty badly for the pilots, even if they do manage to devastate the entire 40k galaxy in the process.

Also, I don't think Ryouma Nagare ever piloted the Getter Emperor. Not in the main manga continuity at least, though I'm sure there are plenty of alternative universes where he managed to do just that. It's Ryouma, after all, he kind of has his ways of finding a way.

Seraph

2012-04-01, 11:58 AM

Also, I don't think Ryouma Nagare ever piloted the Getter Emperor. Not in the main manga continuity at least, though I'm sure there are plenty of alternative universes where he managed to do just that. It's Ryouma, after all, he kind of has his ways of finding a way.

actually, the Emperor's initial appearance in the manga specifically makes a point of making it clear that Ryouma is the one piloting it. "The voice that quakes the universe was indeed that of Ryouma Nagare," and all that.

Comet

2012-04-01, 12:05 PM

actually, the Emperor's initial appearance in the manga specifically makes a point of making it clear that Ryouma is the one piloting it. "The voice that quakes the universe was indeed that of Ryouma Nagare," and all that.

Now that you mention it, yeah, that sounds about right. Don't know how that slipped my mind, being one of my favourite moments in the series and all.

Consider me corrected, I'm more than okay with putting Ryouma against the 40k universe now. Twice the destruction, twice the insanity!

Soras Teva Gee

2012-04-01, 01:32 PM

Isn't this just the latest iteration of the 'Warhammer 40K can be beaten by an omnipotent anime character/enemy/monster' that seems to arise every so often?

I just find it amusing that people want to pose incomparable existences against one another. A single giant mecha against multiple space empires?

Sure one can take the position that nothing the factions can do will stop it.. so what. What's the endgame for this? This invincible plantary scale giant goes around wrecking things... so the Imperium adds one more natural disaster that can befall a world next to Warp Storms, Ork Waaaaaaaggghhhss, and all the natural dangers of space.

I find this question rather like can Godzilla beat the Pacific Ocean.

Radar

2012-04-01, 02:28 PM

If I get it right, Getter Emperor is akin to a singular, big Tyranid Hive Fleet with better guns? Par for the course in Warhammer universe I guess.

Trixie

2012-04-01, 03:48 PM

assuming the Emperor doesn't eat them and come back as an even bigger machine thats now partially made of chaos daemons.

again, assuming that the Daemons are the ones who end up doing the eating.

If absolute and total control of material universe could do anything to Daemons, Necrons would have finished them long ago. The problem with Immaterium is, no rational device without parts fueled by souls of the martyrs or something is going to beat them.

So, yes, end result would be even bigger machine partially made of chaos daemons.

One emitting psychic screams about Blood God and skulls.

oh no, it can absorb anything inside its body. I haven't read all of Getter Robo Arc because it isn't translated, but if I remember the synopses correctly, a boarding party managed to get inside it only to get eaten by the walls.

Out of curiosity, what kind of boarding party and how well equipped?

Tengu_temp

2012-04-01, 06:54 PM

Isn't this just the latest iteration of the 'Warhammer 40K can be beaten by an omnipotent anime character/enemy/monster' that seems to arise every so often?

I believe such threads are a direct response to WH40K fans' claims that nothing can beat Chaos/the Emprah/Exterminatus/insert the fan's favorite WH40K thing here.

And yeah, the Getter Emperor wins. It canonically cannot be truly defeated, only stalled back - a task that's accomplished by a full Valhalla filled with completely crazy warriors armed with ridiculously powerful robots. WH40K depends too much on numbers and too little on personal power to stop it for long.

Now, Getter Emperor vs the Culture, that would be something much less one-sided.

A nearby Imperium patrol vessel, believing that the Getter Fleet is a chaos force

Well, it pretty much is one in anything but the name.

tensai_oni

2012-04-01, 06:58 PM

Getter Emperor is a force of nature. Do not forget that Getter (series, not the unit) has very strong Buddhist undertones. Everything is one - and that one thing is Getter. And in case of Emperor, this is literal: whatever it touches, it assimilates and turns into a part of itself. It doesn't matter how strong your weapons are or how unbreakable your will is. You are now a part of Getter - because you always were.

To assume anything can defeat Getter Emperor is to assume anything can defeat the physical embodiement of the concept of life or evolution itself.

Eldan

2012-04-01, 07:00 PM

A few questions:

Can the Getter Emperor absorb things that are not made out of normal matter? I.e. various phased Necron tech, daemons, warp entities, gods?

Does it have pilots, and do those pilots have protection against psychic attacks?

And, most importantly: can it destroy the IoM faster than the IoM can just produce new ships to throw at it? Because I fully trust the IoM to just swamp this thing under a neverending wave of millions of guardsmen every day, if it has to. Especially since the OP implies the IoM has no other enemies anymore.

Trixie

2012-04-01, 07:01 PM

I believe such threads are a direct response to WH40K fans' claims that nothing can beat Chaos/the Emprah/Exterminatus/insert the fan's favorite WH40K thing here.

Oh, of course they can be beaten. But, doing that with a singular superweapon with no defenses against a setting's strong points or demonic corruption is literally one of the worst ways of doing it.

And yeah, the Getter Emperor wins. It canonically cannot be truly defeated, only stalled back - a task that's accomplished by a full Valhalla filled with completely crazy warriors armed with ridiculously powerful robots. WH40K depends too much on numbers and too little on personal power to stop it for long.

...I take you're not very familiar with any of the Independent Characters found in many Warhammer Codices, are you? :smallconfused:

They're literally about over the top personal power as possible, and that's not including really powerful individuals from WH40K verse.

tensai_oni

2012-04-01, 07:05 PM

@Trixie:
Yes, he said such people cannot defeat Getter Emperor, only stall it back.

It also depends on which continuity we are going with. Is it the Getter Robo Armageddon continuity? The manga one? This is important because there are fundamental changes, as fundamental as whether Emperor is mostly-beneficial or terrifying.

I think posting in a thread like this one is pointless unless one knows both Wh40k AND Getter Robo. Otherwise they do not really get a full view of the situation.

Eldan

2012-04-01, 07:16 PM

Maybe it can't be killed, only stalled.

Know what the IoM is really good at, and basically all about? Stalling things it can't kill. It's all it ever did for 10'000 years now.

To assume anything can defeat Getter Emperor is to assume anything can defeat the physical embodiement of the concept of life or evolution itself.

The old Necrons got pretty far with that. Also, the Chaos Gods would like to have a word about being the embodiment of those concepts.

tensai_oni

2012-04-01, 07:25 PM

But you see, Chaos Gods have one thing working against them: each other. They will literally never form a unified front, if not anything else then because of Malal.

Also the Imperium of Man was fighting other things roughly in its scale. As far as Getter Emperor is concerned, everything less powerful than something that on a different power scale would be a total gamebreaker simply does not matter.

How many ships or billions of troopers you can muster makes no difference if they all can be evaporated by a single gigantic Getter Beam, or better yet - made part of the Emperor, nigh instantly.

Once again, if you did not read the Getter Robo manga (starting with Getter Robo Go, previous ones aren't as good), then do so. One, because it's needed to get a full scope of just exactly what is participating in this vs thread. Two, because they are damn good manga.

Tengu_temp

2012-04-01, 07:26 PM

Yeah, the problem is, pretty much every force in WH40K bases on huge amounts of expendable troops led by rare powerful champions. And Getter doesn't really work like that. You need people who possess ridiculous personal power and willpower, and give them ridiculously powerful machines to match that. And you need lots of them. The cannon fodder? Getter Emperor won't even notice them.

Could the Imperium of Man last for long if it was personally attacked by Khorne? Because Getter Emperor is not only more powerful than any individual Chaos God, but also keeps growing in power all the time. Now, he probably wouldn't be able to destroy the Chaos Gods themselves, seeing that just like the Emperor, they're embodiments of concepts and cannot die as long as those concepts exist. But all the mortals, aliens and daemons? I don't see them surviving. They might fight, but they will lose eventually.

And that's all I have to say, because I don't generally participate in vs threads.

Prime32

2012-04-01, 07:34 PM

Now, he probably wouldn't be able to destroy the Chaos Gods themselves, seeing that just like the Emperor, they're embodiments of concepts and cannot die as long as those concepts exist. But all the mortals, aliens and daemons? I don't see them surviving. They might fight, but they will lose eventually....if there was no sentient life to maintain them, wouldn't that kill the Chaos Gods?

Fan

2012-04-01, 07:38 PM

You know, I normally root for 40k in most threads, but honestly.

They don't really have a chance.. Getter Emperor is strong enough to crush time in it's bare hands, rips in reality don't even really damage it, and it can crush those as well.

An entire planet instantly dies from the ambient getter radiation that this thing emits. It's.. just not possible.

Maybe Super TTGL, and Elder God Demonbane, but the list of it's possible enemies are quite small.

Steam

2012-04-01, 07:47 PM

As someone who's looked into Warhammer 40K a bit and also being a very large fan of Getter, I'll put my two cents into this:

The 40K-'verse is completely screwed. Completely and utterly.

In the Getter manga itself, Getter Emperor's component machines were able to completely annihilate the Andromeda Flow Country. And the Andromeda Flow Country had mastered time travel. In fact, Andromeda Flow's last resort was to go back in time and kill everyone related to Getter Robo, and Emperor *still* just went back in time and stopped that too. Though considering how horrifyingly powerful even Shin Getter is the need for that is debatable. Conventional military forces are pretty much impotent against Getter, which means the Imperial forces and the Tau are doomed.

In fact, simply because I'm more familiar with Shin Getter Robo, let's talk about that as well. In Getter Robo Gou, Shin Getter's debut was when the story and Getter in general started to take on a certain amount of horror to it. The entire Dinosaur Empire was absolutely helpless in the fact of it, with Shin Getter assimilating anything it touched and adding that machine to itself instantly. Something grabs Getter? Well now all of that machine is Shin Getter. This kind of advantage pretty much *screws* the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons, and that was just Shin Getter I was talking about. Emperor would be magnitudes worse. Even messing around with space-time is meaningless since Getter's been shown to be able to warp around, completely terraform Mars in an instant, and it can exist in various planes of reality (such as at the end of Getter Robo Armageddon when we see the Getter Armada).

There's also the psychological factor. The Getter OVAs (especially New Getter Robo) paint the wrong image about what happens when you become one with Getter Robo. At the end of Go, its pilots aren't berserk psychopaths but rather calm and methodical; warrior monks if you will. This is pretty much the exact opposite of how Chaos works. There's also the whole Malal/Malice issue to worry about here. Chaos will never, ever win simply because that defeats the purpose of being Chaos and thus they *must* collapse under their own weight sooner or later. Even Tzeentch, generally considered the most dangerous of the gods has to grapple with the fact that he has so many plans that they pile up against *each other*. The God of Change isn't organized enough to see genuine change come into effect. Look at their greatest champion while you're at it. Abaddon's failed to seize control of Cadia after thirteen attempts.

Even assuming Getter can't enter the warp normally, it can just as easily assimilate a warp ship and a psyker and then go to town inside.

ALL OF THAT SAID:

Ideally, the God Emperor of Mankind, in his comatose state, is able to connect with Getter Emperor and become one with it, kicking ass on a level unmatched even by the Emprahsque.

Worst Case Scenario: Emperor Shinespark. The 40K-'verse won't know what hit it.

Misery Esquire

2012-04-01, 09:03 PM

Chaos will never, ever win simply because that defeats the purpose of being Chaos and thus they *must* collapse under their own weight sooner or later. Even Tzeentch, generally considered the most dangerous of the gods has to grapple with the fact that he has so many plans that they pile up against *each other*.

Err... That's what he likes doing, it's not really detrimental to his cause. And they don't have to collapse under thier own weight, infact, they'll continue exsisting until all mortal life runs out, or, if the daemon in Grey Knight wasn't lying or being misled (Ahahahaha... Ha.), Tzeentch eliminates the physical universe leaving everything in the Warp.

The God of Change isn't organized enough to see genuine change come into effect. Look at their greatest champion while you're at it. Abaddon's failed to seize control of Cadia after thirteen attempts.

...Organized... for change?

A.) You don't need to be organized to change things
B.) Changing isn't just his purpose, it's his power feed

Also, also ; Abaddon only tried to conquer Cadia... Three or four times out of those thirteen. The rest of the time he accomplished his goals that usually had little to do with Cadia aside from the "AVOID HERE" sticker on the map.

Eldan

2012-04-01, 10:13 PM

The Glyphstone

2012-04-01, 10:36 PM

I believe such threads are a direct response to WH40K fans' claims that nothing can beat Chaos/the Emprah/Exterminatus/insert the fan's favorite WH40K thing here.

Yeah, but the vast majority people don't actually say that, aside from the handful of crazies. It's the "40K vs. SW" "40K vs. Predators and Aliens", "40K versus X" that have the 40K fans saying it'll win, because it will in most of the matchups proposed. Bringing in an omnipotent enemy just gets a "well duh" response from everyone, 40K fans included.

Though like I said in the vs. TTGL thread, it depends on whose rules take precedence here. If the Getter Emperor brings the rules of its own series/universe with it, it'll win. If 40K's grimdark ambience takes precedence, Getter's own unbeatable strength will end up as its own defeat via Chaos corruption.

turkishproverb

2012-04-01, 10:47 PM

That's why I'm saying this is basically a question of growth rates.
The IoM is said to have a million planets, and trillions of people. Can the getter Emperor kill them faster than they grow, on a galactic scale?

Because I see few things that can stand up to that thing one on one. Eldrad in his Blackstone fortress? No chance. The chaos gods? Maybe. The C'tan? Not looking good.

It really doesn't matter. Getter energy eats the multiverse. The absolute worst Getter Emperor is going to do is tie. But yea, the Emperor has exterminates level power.

tyckspoon

2012-04-01, 11:23 PM

That's why I'm saying this is basically a question of growth rates.
The IoM is said to have a million planets, and trillions of people. Can the getter Emperor kill them faster than they grow, on a galactic scale?

Arrive in Sol system. Assimilate or destroy Terra and Mars. At a single stroke you have removed the Imperium's administrative, navigation, and technological center. Without the coordination and infrastructure of Terra, there is functionally no Imperium- there's just a bunch of separate human-run star systems that have no good way to communicate with each other or travel to each other. Doesn't matter how many humans there are if they can't actually help each other.

Killer Angel

2012-04-02, 02:46 AM

Maybe it can't be killed, only stalled.

Know what the IoM is really good at, and basically all about? Stalling things it can't kill. It's all it ever did for 10'000 years now.

Such a display of power for a tie?
I'm disappointed. :smalltongue:

tensai_oni

2012-04-02, 05:57 AM

Though like I said in the vs. TTGL thread, it depends on whose rules take precedence here. If the Getter Emperor brings the rules of its own series/universe with it, it'll win. If 40K's grimdark ambience takes precedence, Getter's own unbeatable strength will end up as its own defeat via Chaos corruption.

As Steam pointed out, just piloting Shin Getter makes you a 100% enlightened individual, one with the universe and with a peaceful mind. Don't let the crazed grins fool you, this is just how Ken Ishikawa rolls. Do you know the Grey Knights and how they are immune to Chaos corruption? That's what being a Shin Getter pilot is like.

And Getter Emperor is a step, no - ten steps above that. So no, warp/chaos/corruption is not the instant "you have no protection against it, so I WIN" card for the Warhammer side.

Dragonus45

2012-04-02, 05:02 PM

Considering that allmost the getter pilots are kinda axe crazy antihero, and getter beams have been known to drive people insane, i would say they might not have perfect enlightenment.

Really though considering that the Getter Emperor is pretty much the definition of spiral nemesis from TTGL this whole discussion seems pointless. If chaos gets it the universe ends, if it doesn't the universe ends. Its kinda all the same.

tensai_oni

2012-04-02, 05:04 PM

WitchSlayer

2012-04-02, 05:08 PM

What would a black hole do to Getter Emperor, theoretically? Because I think Dark Eldar have access to those, last I checked.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-02, 05:13 PM

As Steam pointed out, just piloting Shin Getter makes you a 100% enlightened individual, one with the universe and with a peaceful mind. Don't let the crazed grins fool you, this is just how Ken Ishikawa rolls. Do you know the Grey Knights and how they are immune to Chaos corruption? That's what being a Shin Getter pilot is like.

And Getter Emperor is a step, no - ten steps above that. So no, warp/chaos/corruption is not the instant "you have no protection against it, so I WIN" card for the Warhammer side.

Grey Knight immunity has nothing to do with their enlightenment, it's training and conditioning to reinforce the anti-Chaos sigils and runes and magic spells they layer themselves with. Nothing is truly incorruptible in 40K, even Grey Knights - for them, it's a "none have fallen yet, implied it'll only be a matter of time or that it's already happened and they hushed it up.

Being '100% enlightened" or even "10000% enlightened" is only a guaranteed protection against corruption if those rules still apply. If Getter Robo/Emperor is bound to 40K's grimdark asthetics, then its power becomes its weakness. There is no 'I win' in 40K, there is 'I lose slightly less than you'.

Dragonus45

2012-04-02, 06:23 PM

Have you read the ending of Getter Robo Go?

Ive only read the manga sporadically as its hard to get a hold of translations. But i remember in New Getter Robo one member of the getter team, Hayato i think, being a terrorist who just wanted to kill people to kill time. And i dont remember his original manga personality being all that different. But Getter Robo Go was the one where Gai went insane from getter beams right?

But its still moot point, one way or another the whole universe is boned, whether or not Chaos is at the controls.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-02, 06:26 PM

Yeah, there's no question the 40Kverse's inhabitants are going to get obliterated. The fundamental point of contention is if the Getter machine will end up as bad as what it destroyed, a rampaging Chaos-corrupted destroyer that consumes everything in the physical galaxy till nothing is left but itself and the various Warp storms.

tensai_oni

2012-04-02, 06:29 PM

Dragonus45

2012-04-02, 07:08 PM

@Dragonus45:

I think you are mistaking the manga continuity with various anime ones. Armageddon is its own thing. New Getter is its own thing. Shin vs Neo, also its own thing. Go roughly follows the original Getter and G Getter manga, but some characterisation is much different.

And of course the Getter and G Getter cartoons are their own thing.

I know they are all different things most of what im going on is what of the manga i have read, new getter robo, Armageddon, Vs Neo. I also did a quick tvtropes dive to refresh my memory. I was just referring to the fact that in multiple continuities including the original manga Hayato is rather crazy and bloodthirsty, so is Ryoma. I'm, not as sure about the others, but it doesn't change the fact the they beams are kinda bad news. I know they drove one main character crazy, and while being absorbed into the Shin Getter like a lot of the main cast was isn't seen as that bad of a thing in the manga i think its worth noting that JUST ABOUT EVERY other continuity i know of has had the characters reject it when it became the thing.

Seraph

2012-04-03, 01:34 AM

Hayato, in the original manga, was a leader of one of Japan's bat**** Student Radical groups. In case you aren't familiar with japanese contemporary history, the long and short of it is that college in 1970's japan was not a place you wanted to be if you didn't want to be either press-ganged into a Student Government or killed outright in the crossfire between the above.

while you note that every other continuity has Getter Rays be rejected, its also worth noting that Getter Rays are portrayed much differently in said continuities than they are in the manga. I mean, if anything, exposure to Getter Rays ended up focusing Ryouma and Hayato into more productive lanes of effort (from "revenge-driven thug" to "leader of a large dojo" and "student radical" to "Mentor of mankind's saviors" respectively)

deuterio12

2012-04-03, 04:25 AM

Grey Knight immunity has nothing to do with their enlightenment, it's training and conditioning to reinforce the anti-Chaos sigils and runes and magic spells they layer themselves with. Nothing is truly incorruptible in 40K, even Grey Knights - for them, it's a "none have fallen yet, implied it'll only be a matter of time or that it's already happened and they hushed it up.

Immunity to corruption? What immunity to corruption?
-Killing their own allies to bath in their blood as an offering to the chaos gods for safe passage trough daemon territorry? Check.
-Wielding daemon weapons? Check. Remember even primarchs were corrupted by those ones.
-Using sorcery left and right? Check. Remember even the emperor considered use of sorcery good reason enough to order the destruction of a primarch and his legion, even if it meant leaving terra severly unguarded.
-The current GK leader lives in the warp, and can actually be summoned as a daemon? Check.

Sooo, what else do they need to do to count as fallen? Because even the foulest chaos warbands have an hard time matching up that level of corruption.

Being '100% enlightened" or even "10000% enlightened" is only a guaranteed protection against corruption if those rules still apply. If Getter Robo/Emperor is bound to 40K's grimdark asthetics, then its power becomes its weakness.

Meh, it just has to blow up the galaxy. The chaos gods survive in the emotions of the diferent conflicting races, so if Getter Emperor kills them all, even the chaos gods will starve to death.

There is no 'I win' in 40K, there is 'I lose slightly less than you'.

Depends on your perspective. Orks and chaos are actually the big winners of 40k right now, because they both desire endless, senseless conflict above all else. What would be orks whitout enemies to point their WWWAAAGGGHHHSS to? What would be Khorne whitout battlefields to spill blood and skulls to collect? What would be Nurgle whitout decay? What would be Slanesh whitout mouth-foaming dudes leting their instincts take over? What would be Tzenceth whitout petty scheming and madness?

The Glyphstone

2012-04-03, 05:38 AM

Sooo, what else do they need to do to count as fallen? Because even the foulest chaos warbands have an hard time matching up that level of corruption.

Less effective propaganda machines, basically. Remember that radical Inquisitors do all of the above for the most part, and aren't considered 'fallen/corrupted' from an out-of-universe perspective either until they actually succumb to the powers they're wielding. Grey Knights are that x100, they're playing with dark powers in the name of (relative) good, and dependent on their wards and faith to keep them on that path.

Meh, it just has to blow up the galaxy. The chaos gods survive in the emotions of the diferent conflicting races, so if Getter Emperor kills them all, even the chaos gods will starve to death.
They'd still have their own followers living inside the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom, where the Emperor can't touch them (in theory). It'd be like going to bread water after a lifetime of hedonistic feasting, but not total starvation.

I suppose if the machine eats the galaxy, the only 'winners' are the OldCrons, which makes sense considering the enemy is a giant robot.

Man on Fire

2012-04-03, 07:34 AM

The Glyphstone

2012-04-03, 09:15 AM

Getter Emperor wins - what are 40k guys supposed to do, ram their enitre fleets into it? It will grow larger and assymilate everything, until it will be bigger than the Galaxy and face God (seriously, Getter did it in one manga).

And that's great for a universe where God takes a physical form (as is quite prevalent in Japanese creations). In the 40K universe, unfortunately,'God' is, depending on your faction, either a decrepit vegetable on life support who runs the Imperium's GPS hub, or a quartet of nebulous emotion-devouring entities who cannot take physical form outside of a realm where 2+2=Fish Riding A Bicycle. The former is just a lump of meat and machinery (though the aftereffects of killing it are widely disputed in and out of setting), but the latter are in a place that inviolately cannot be entered safely without allegiance to its owners or a very specific piece of arcane tech that won't exist if the Emperor has eaten everything else.

End result, if nothing outside the Warp can stop the Emperor, is a Galaxy+-sized robot with the cosmological equivalent of two really bad ulcers (the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror), holes in reality it can't grow into but can't consume it outside their boundaries.

Steam

2012-04-03, 02:30 PM

End result, if nothing outside the Warp can stop the Emperor, is a Galaxy+-sized robot with the cosmological equivalent of two really bad ulcers (the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror), holes in reality it can't grow into but can't consume it outside their boundaries.

I don't know entirely enough about the Warp to comment on it aside from what I can glean from looking over the Immaterium page on the 40K wiki, but I do know there's a certain degree of spirituality to Getter Robo nevertheless.

http://mangafox.me/manga/getter_robo_go/v07/c004/25.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/getter_robo_go/v07/c004/26.html

I guess what I'm saying here is simply that Getter Emperor shouldn't be considered a purely physical entity. Gou even experiences visions while communicating with the Getter Rays themselves.

deuterio12

2012-04-03, 02:50 PM

For the record, getter emperor punching god was a doujin, not an official manga.

Less effective propaganda machines, basically. Remember that radical Inquisitors do all of the above for the most part, and aren't considered 'fallen/corrupted' from an out-of-universe perspective either until they actually succumb to the powers they're wielding. Grey Knights are that x100, they're playing with dark powers in the name of (relative) good, and dependent on their wards and faith to keep them on that path.

That's a really fancy way of saying they're all a bunch of hypocrites, blowing up whole worlds because somebody readed the wrong book, and then proceeding to glue said books to their armors.

They'd still have their own followers living inside the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom, where the Emperor can't touch them (in theory). It'd be like going to bread water after a lifetime of hedonistic feasting, but not total starvation.

The hell they can't! (pun intended). We have multiple instances of dudes going inside the warp and wrecking havoc. Including orks. Granted, the laws of physics are still old jokes there, but Getter Emperor never cared much about them anyway, so it'll probably feel at home (just like ork "tech" kept working perfectly). Combined with the chaos gods starvation, it may be more than enough to make the diference.

I suppose if the machine eats the galaxy, the only 'winners' are the OldCrons, which makes sense considering the enemy is a giant robot.
Speaking of which, crons (not wardcrons) actually had warp-stablizing tech. You know why Cadia is an exceptionally stable passage to the Warp? Because it's filled with countless warp-stablizing necron-tech pylons. Necrons simply couldn't mass-produce them fast enough, but bring Getter Emperor into the picture, do some reverse-tech, and you can actually shut down the warp for good!

Assuming we consider wardcrons as non-cannon of course. Otherwise, necrons are suddenly left with the worst tech in the galaxy.

And that's great for a universe where God takes a physical form (as is quite prevalent in Japanese creations). In the 40K universe, unfortunately,'God' is, depending on your faction, either a decrepit vegetable on life support who runs the Imperium's GPS hub, or a quartet of nebulous emotion-devouring entities who cannot take physical form outside of a realm where 2+2=Fish Riding A Bicycle. The former is just a lump of meat and machinery (though the aftereffects of killing it are widely disputed in and out of setting), but the latter are in a place that inviolately cannot be entered safely without allegiance to its owners or a very specific piece of arcane tech that won't exist if the Emperor has eaten everything else.

Speak for yourself. In several pieces of fluff we see the chaos gods as physical forms. There's that time when a Bloodthirster tries to backstab Khorne (and does actually scratch the god of blood!), the fact Khorne does wield swords, Tzenceth used to have a staff, Gork and Mork tag-teamed Nurgle (and that's why orks don't fear death), the Avatar of the Bloody Hand was corporeal enough to be broken in pieces, C'tans need physical bodies to do anything, etc.

GloatingSwine

2012-04-03, 03:17 PM

Immunity to corruption? What immunity to corruption?

Immune to Chaos.

Not immune to Matt Ward.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-03, 03:18 PM

[QUOTE]
That's a really fancy way of saying they're all a bunch of hypocrites, blowing up whole worlds because somebody readed the wrong book, and then proceeding to glue said books to their armors.
Exactly.

The hell they can't! (pun intended). We have multiple instances of dudes going inside the warp and wrecking havoc. Including orks. Granted, the laws of physics are still old jokes there, but Getter Emperor never cared much about them anyway, so it'll probably feel at home (just like ork "tech" kept working perfectly). Combined with the chaos gods starvation, it may be more than enough to make the diference.

I remember the story you're talking about - an Ork Waaaaugh got lost in the Eye of Terror and ended up crashing onto a planet infested with demons, fighting them to the death every day and getting resurrected the next morning to do it again. The Orks thought this was the best thing ever because it was a never-ending fight, but it only happened because the warp-powers in charge wanted it to. Without a Geller Field, you're entirely at the mercy of the Warp's native entities...usually this means they kill you horribly, unless (as for the Orks) it's more fun to do something else. The outer layers of the Eye/Maelstrom are semi-stable, but the deeper you go and closer to the homes of the Chaos Gods, reality just packs up and goes home.

Speaking of which, crons (not wardcrons) actually had warp-stablizing tech. You know why Cadia is an exceptionally stable passage to the Warp? Because it's filled with countless warp-stablizing necron-tech pylons. Necrons simply couldn't mass-produce them fast enough, but bring Getter Emperor into the picture, do some reverse-tech, and you can actually shut down the warp for good!

Assuming we consider wardcrons as non-cannon of course. Otherwise, necrons are suddenly left with the worst tech in the galaxy.
Now the Getter Emperor can consume, reverse-engineer, and benefit from stuff it absorbs instead of just incorporating the raw mass to become larger?

Speak for yourself. In several pieces of fluff we see the chaos gods as physical forms. There's that time when a Bloodthirster tries to backstab Khorne (and does actually scratch the god of blood!), the fact Khorne does wield swords, Tzenceth used to have a staff, Gork and Mork tag-teamed Nurgle (and that's why orks don't fear death), the Avatar of the Bloody Hand was corporeal enough to be broken in pieces, C'tans need physical bodies to do anything, etc.
But none that take place outside the Warp (except the C'Tan, who were never Gods on the same level as Isha or Khorne, just incomprehensibly powerful physical entities) or the deepest layers of the EoT, which are the same thing. The Avatar was corporeal enough, yes, but the Eldar gods have in several cases been shown to follow different rules than the Chaos Gods....

Actually, that's something. No matter what the Getter Emperor does, it can't finish off the Harlequins, because they live inside the Webway, and Emperor is too big to fit through any known Webway gate. It can eat the Gates and trap them inside for all eternity, but it can't kill/absorb them directly. Not that it would bother the crazy space clowns much, since they pretty much spend all their time cooped up in there anyways.

GloatingSwine

2012-04-03, 03:23 PM

That's a really fancy way of saying they're all a bunch of hypocrites, blowing up whole worlds because somebody readed the wrong book, and then proceeding to glue said books to their armors.

Welcome to 40k, where those are the good guys.

Man on Fire

2012-04-03, 03:58 PM

And that's great for a universe where God takes a physical form (as is quite prevalent in Japanese creations). In the 40K universe, unfortunately,'God' is, depending on your faction, either a decrepit vegetable on life support who runs the Imperium's GPS hub, or a quartet of nebulous emotion-devouring entities who cannot take physical form outside of a realm where 2+2=Fish Riding A Bicycle. The former is just a lump of meat and machinery (though the aftereffects of killing it are widely disputed in and out of setting), but the latter are in a place that inviolately cannot be entered safely without allegiance to its owners or a very specific piece of arcane tech that won't exist if the Emperor has eaten everything else.

End result, if nothing outside the Warp can stop the Emperor, is a Galaxy+-sized robot with the cosmological equivalent of two really bad ulcers (the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror), holes in reality it can't grow into but can't consume it outside their boundaries.

Getter had broken so many laws of physics that entering the Warp and eating it from the inside wouldn't be beyond it's capability.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-03, 04:06 PM

Getter had broken so many laws of physics that entering the Warp and eating it from the inside wouldn't be beyond it's capability.

It doesn't matter if you can break the laws of physics when there aren't any laws of physics to break. At absolute best, completely ignoring rationality and physics would put it on equal terms with the denizens of the Warp, and unlike GE, they've spent a metaphorical or literal eternity manipulating their environment.

deuterio12

2012-04-03, 05:07 PM

[QUOTE=deuterio12;13008033]
I remember the story you're talking about - an Ork Waaaaugh got lost in the Eye of Terror and ended up crashing onto a planet infested with demons, fighting them to the death every day and getting resurrected the next morning to do it again. The Orks thought this was the best thing ever because it was a never-ending fight, but it only happened because the warp-powers in charge wanted it to. Without a Geller Field, you're entirely at the mercy of the Warp's native entities...usually this means they kill you horribly, unless (as for the Orks) it's more fun to do something else. The outer layers of the Eye/Maelstrom are semi-stable, but the deeper you go and closer to the homes of the Chaos Gods, reality just packs up and goes home.

Moar examples:
-The space furries 13th company is still hanging around there.
-Thousands sons managed to make a ward to stop themselves from being fully at the whims of chaos. Ok, 90% of them ended up as animated suits of armor, but still stable.
-Khorne has old-fashioned forges to make armors and weapons for his troops, with him hating sorcery and stuff.

Now the Getter Emperor can consume, reverse-engineer, and benefit from stuff it absorbs instead of just incorporating the raw mass to become larger?

In case you didn't know, Getter Rays are the raw essence of evolution. Basically Spiral Power. Except Getter Rays were there first. If the necrons could do it, then Getter can as well.

But none that take place outside the Warp (except the C'Tan, who were never Gods on the same level as Isha or Khorne, just incomprehensibly powerful physical entities) or the deepest layers of the EoT, which are the same thing. The Avatar was corporeal enough, yes, but the Eldar gods have in several cases been shown to follow different rules than the Chaos Gods....

Slanesh and Khorne and Khaine still all had a major melee party somewhere.

Actually, that's something. No matter what the Getter Emperor does, it can't finish off the Harlequins, because they live inside the Webway, and Emperor is too big to fit through any known Webway gate. It can eat the Gates and trap them inside for all eternity, but it can't kill/absorb them directly. Not that it would bother the crazy space clowns much, since they pretty much spend all their time cooped up in there anyways.

Well, that's for what all the older, smaller versions of Getter will be I guess. The heroes literally have an army of them by the end of the series.

Also there's that part where getter emperor literally punches trough time-space to save the past.

It doesn't matter if you can break the laws of physics when there aren't any laws of physics to break. At absolute best, completely ignoring rationality and physics would put it on equal terms with the denizens of the Warp, and unlike GE, they've spent a metaphorical or literal eternity manipulating their environment.

Again, getter emperor punches the past. What have the chaos gods been doing like that lately?

Welcome to 40k, where those are the good guys.

No, they aren't. They're as rotten and corrupt as the daemons they fight, and since GK sacrifice roughly 999 999 highly talented humans to spawn each of their own, they're more parasites to humanity than anything else.

At least chaos offers equal-oportunity jobs.

If there's any good guys in 40K, it's the humans that refuse to bow to the IoM and don't serve the chaos gods armies (which is actually most of humanity in the galaxy, the IoM's propaganda machine just kills anyone among their own who points out that fact).

EDIT:

"Now THERE'S a thought: Getter Emperor is what the Tyranids have been running away from all this time.

Pure win.

Steam

2012-04-03, 05:09 PM

Now the Getter Emperor can consume, reverse-engineer, and benefit from stuff it absorbs instead of just incorporating the raw mass to become larger?

It can absorb consciousnesses, as we see that Saotome, Gore, Burai, Michiru, and most other characters in the franchise not named Hayato in the end, so why can it incorporate immaterial things into itself but not material things? Just think of it as what the Tyranids do, except it applies to everything and anything Getter Emperor takes into itself, tech included.

... Now THERE'S a thought: Getter Emperor is what the Tyranids have been running away from all this time.

Actually, that's something. No matter what the Getter Emperor does, it can't finish off the Harlequins, because they live inside the Webway, and Emperor is too big to fit through any known Webway gate. It can eat the Gates and trap them inside for all eternity, but it can't kill/absorb them directly. Not that it would bother the crazy space clowns much, since they pretty much spend all their time cooped up in there anyways.

If the webway isn't big enough, Getter Emperor would simply rip it bigger. This is something that we see actually seal a rip through space and time by crushing it with its bare hand. Doing the opposite wouldn't be any harder for it.

And even assuming that there is something that Getter Emperor can not physically reach because there is some miniscule entraceway that can't be strongarmed bigger, there's nothing stopping it from flooding that opening with Getter Rays.

And again, you're only thinking of Getter as a purely physical entity, which you shouldn't. Getter decimated the dinosaurs on Earth for the hell of it in the name of evolution not as a giant eldritch robot, but as nothing more than radiation. And in later stories, we actually see what happens when Dinosaur Empire people try to pilot a Getter and the result isn't pretty. Even in its smallest quantities, if the Getter Rays want you to suffer and die, you're going to.

It doesn't matter if you can break the laws of physics when there aren't any laws of physics to break. At absolute best, completely ignoring rationality and physics would put it on equal terms with the denizens of the Warp, and unlike GE, they've spent a metaphorical or literal eternity manipulating their environment.

And Getter's existed since the start of the Universe, screwing with the laws of physics as well so that life can blossom and eventually evolve to become one with it. Remember, Shin Getter (which for all its strength is nothing compared to Getter Emperor) terraformed Mars in an instant. It didn't bother adjusting Mars's orbit or giving it an atmosphere, it just made it so. The Warp Denizens had to wait until sentient life came along to start with that, so if anything Getter's got the advantage at that point.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-03, 05:36 PM

Moar examples:
-The space furries 13th company is still hanging around there.[/quote]
Unless I misremember, like the Grey Knight leader the 13th Company have the [Demonic] rule in their tabletop incarnation. They've "gone native", effectively.

-Thousands sons managed to make a ward to stop themselves from being fully at the whims of chaos. Ok, 90% of them ended up as animated suits of armor, but still stable.

Ahriman raised that ward on his own/with help from his sorcerers and Tzeentch, and that's backing my point that only those allied with the powers of Chaos are protected in the Warp.

-Khorne has old-fashioned forges to make armors and weapons for his troops, with him hating sorcery and stuff.

See previous point, how does Khorne deciding that the Warp can make physical armor+weapons where he feels like counter the issue that all is at the whim of the Gods and their lesser servants?

In case you didn't know, Getter Rays are the raw essence of evolution. Basically Spiral Power. Except Getter Rays were there first. If the necrons could do it, then Getter can as well.
And Necrons are the physical embodiment of stagnation and cold, dead oblivion, basically Anti-Spirals except they won their respective fight. So logically, anything the Necrons can do Getter should be thematically incapable of doing, as they are diametrically opposed.

Well, that's for what all the older, smallerversions of Getter will be I guess. The heroes literally have an army of them by the end of the series.
Do smaller getters also have MANLY FIGHTING SPIRIT of invincibility and unbeatability?

Also there's that part where getter emperor literally punches trough time-space to save the past.

Again, getter emperor punches the past. What have the chaos gods been doing like that lately?

Time doesn't exist in the Warp, or if it does, it's non-linear. The Chaos Gods dont' need to punch the past, because once they came into being, they've always been there.

Though if the time travel card is being played, was this ever actually a versus, or just an excuse for Getter fans to pat each other on the back?

If the webway isn't big enough, Getter Emperor would simply rip it bigger. This is something that we see actually seal a rip through space and time by crushing it with its bare hand. Doing the opposite wouldn't be any harder for it.

Ripping a webway gate bigger would destroy the gate and render it impassable - it's a machine, not a natural phenomenon. Plus, to rip it bigger it'd need to be able to grab the edges, which a planet+sized entity won't be able to do.

And even assuming that there is something that Getter Emperor can not physically reach because there is some miniscule entraceway that can't be strongarmed bigger, there's nothing stopping it from flooding that opening with Getter Rays.

And again, you're only thinking of Getter as a purely physical entity, which you shouldn't. Getter decimated the dinosaurs on Earth for the hell of it in the name of evolution not as a giant eldritch robot, but as nothing more than radiation. And in later stories, we actually see what happens when Dinosaur Empire people try to pilot a Getter and the result isn't pretty. Even in its smallest quantities, if the Getter Rays want you to suffer and die, you're going to.
So if it can do this, why does it need to be a giant robot at all? What can the giant robot do that unbeatable uber-laser-beams-of-Robo-Sue-Doom can't accomplish? Or, as I said above, this entire thread was just an excuse to cheer abour how awesome Getter is while 'fighting' a nebulous strawman?

Heck, failing all else, the Harlequins can just close the gates, or collapse them. Stalemate.

And Getter's existed since the start of the Universe, screwing with the laws of physics as well so that life can blossom and eventually evolve to become one with it. Remember, Shin Getter (which for all its strength is nothing compared to Getter Emperor) terraformed Mars in an instant. It didn't bother adjusting Mars's orbit or giving it an atmosphere, it just made it so. The Warp Denizens had to wait until sentient life came along to start with that, so if anything Getter's got the advantage at that point.
See what I said above, time is non-linear in the warp. They had to 'wait' for sentient life, but once they happened, they were always there even before they existed.

Knight13

2012-04-03, 06:11 PM

The Nightbringer notices such a huge energy source and shows up to eat it. The Getter Emperor tries to absorb the Nightbringer while he's sucking its energy. As opposing embodiments of life and death, they go supernova and annihilate each other.

Or heck, the Void Dragon shows up. The Getter Emperor is some sort of embodiment of life or evolution or whatever but it's also a machine, right? Well the Void Dragon is the Machine God, so he just takes it over and uses it as his new body.

Tengu_temp

2012-04-03, 06:21 PM

Or, as I said above, this entire thread was just an excuse to cheer abour how awesome Getter is while 'fighting' a nebulous strawman?

I don't think it is, but you have to admit that quite a bit of WH40K fans love to do what you just described, only replace Getter with Warhammer. So some other people might be eager to show them examples that prove that no, WH40K is not the end of everything power-wise.

Coincidentally, I don't like to participate in vs threads because way too many of them seem to be people arguing that The Thing I Like Can Beat The Thing You Like And It's Therefore Much Cooler And Better And My Tastes Are Better Than Yours.

Misery Esquire

2012-04-03, 06:52 PM

So some other people might be eager to show them examples that prove that no, WH40K is not the end of everything power-wise.

40K isn't the end of everything power-wise, but claiming that because you can punch a god that was silly enough to materialize itself physically in the face means that you can hit things that don't even have a form.

It's the same as all the other (Usually Japanese, due to Anime/Magna tending to let it's characters hit gods) times that people "challenge" 40k. Yes, you can bring your omnipotent thing that will win forever ; as long as thier setting rules override the setting that's being challenged. (This also applies in reverse where 40k needs the laws of it's setting to win) Go figure.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-03, 08:46 PM

I don't think it is, but you have to admit that quite a bit of WH40K fans love to do what you just described, only replace Getter with Warhammer. So some other people might be eager to show them examples that prove that no, WH40K is not the end of everything power-wise.

Coincidentally, I don't like to participate in vs threads because way too many of them seem to be people arguing that The Thing I Like Can Beat The Thing You Like And It's Therefore Much Cooler And Better And My Tastes Are Better Than Yours.

See, I've never actually seen this in any Vs. thread (on GITP), despite the claims. Even the most vocal and strident 40K fans will admit that 40K can't beat a literally omnipotent enemy in military force, because, well, omnipotence. For that matter, non-omnipotent enemies can wipe it out (The Culture, I believe, was commonly agreed to curbstomp 40K five ways to Sunday). The 'defense' that 40K-fans bring to bear is the fact that these versus matches are always "X Invades the 40K universe and tries to destroy it", which leads into what I said before and Kin is saying now:

It's the same as all the other (Usually Japanese, due to Anime/Magna tending to let it's characters hit gods) times that people "challenge" 40k. Yes, you can bring your omnipotent thing that will win forever ; as long as thier setting rules override the setting that's being challenged. (This also applies in reverse where 40k needs the laws of it's setting to win) Go figure.

When "Manly Fighting Spirit Can Overcome All Odds" clashes head-on with "Everything Sucks, Power Always Corrupts, Everyone Loses Eventually Or Becomes Worse Than What They're Fighting", one of the two themes has to take precedence. The fights are all the same, because 'beating' 40K isnt about murdering its inhabitants, it's about fighting the excessive grimdarkosity that is its trademark.

Fan

2012-04-03, 10:35 PM

I don't think it is, but you have to admit that quite a bit of WH40K fans love to do what you just described, only replace Getter with Warhammer. So some other people might be eager to show them examples that prove that no, WH40K is not the end of everything power-wise.

Coincidentally, I don't like to participate in vs threads because way too many of them seem to be people arguing that The Thing I Like Can Beat The Thing You Like And It's Therefore Much Cooler And Better And My Tastes Are Better Than Yours.

I'm a 40k fan, and what is this?

I'm one of the most adamant defenders of 40k when it comes to battles involving REASONABLE OPPONENTS with them, I have been called "Stubborn", outright stupid, and stuck in my opinions when it comes to 40k, if it comes to a War of attrition than 40k will win, because they are willing to give up, and fight for everything regardless of what it is. No other setting has that raw, fighting tenacity. War weariness happens to all cultures apparently except for the ones present in 40k, thus against an arguably equal enemy they usually come out on top because of this, because they are USED to the grimdark horror torture that is their setting and way of war while others.. simply aren't.

However, I have never done so without at least ATTEMPTING to back it up with well constructed arguments backed by wiki links, sure I make mistakes and such, but I'm FAR from the gross generalization that you're making that 40k fans make threads centered totally about how we would beat X, or Y completely and utterly with biased starting positions with a detailed opening post about how ignorant anyone who disagrees with our pre-made assumptions are. For one, I've never once TOUCHED a versus thread in the creation process, and if I have it was long enough ago that I can't seem to find it, and for two if anything it seems more common that people who are "tired" of 40k fans doing as such do it.

Yes 40k is a powerful setting, with it's main human faction on par or exceeding The Galactic Empire, and The Federation in Star Trek. However. It is not something that is the end all be all of Sci Fi. They are not invulnerable, and they are most certainly not represented in chief by the people you are making us out to be in this post.

Good day.

Bouregard

2012-04-03, 11:38 PM

WitchSlayer

2012-04-03, 11:40 PM

Besides, this isn't really comparable! You can't just put a giant mecha against an empire. Its empire vs empire, mecha vs mecha. Thems the rules.

Now what we SHOULD be putting Getter Emperor up against is THIS

http://i.imgur.com/41u6B.jpg

Apologies for the picture quality, the original comic was in 3D.

Rinvak

2012-04-04, 01:02 AM

If it helps any, it's probably just easier to think of Getter Emperor as an independent warp entity, like them there space elf gods, and Gork and Mork. Seriously the higher-tiered Getter machines always manage to make me think of the chaos equivalent of titans, what with how it kinda gives me the creeps when it basically eats?(merges?) the pilots.

Still I never get why people like these kinds of threads, they always seem to ask the wrong questions, usually.

Dragonus45

2012-04-04, 01:05 AM

Honestly a better Getter Emperor VS thread is TTGL since they run off so many similar principals. Heck im even of the opinion that the GE is the spiral nemesis.

Comet

2012-04-04, 06:45 AM

Steam

2012-04-04, 07:47 AM

Honestly a better Getter Emperor VS thread is TTGL since they run off so many similar principals. Heck im even of the opinion that the GE is the spiral nemesis.

Meh. I always figured Kankel from Betterman to fit the requirement of "Spiral Nemesis" infinitely better than Getter Emperor. Kankel was unchecked, destructive growth. The thing literally WAS a sentient, nearly immortal mass of cancer cells that just by existing was causing humanity to go insane and kill itself.

It even looked like an inverted Anti-Spiral, being white, transparent, and feminine in shape.

deuterio12

2012-04-04, 02:50 PM

When "Manly Fighting Spirit Can Overcome All Odds" clashes head-on with "Everything Sucks, Power Always Corrupts, Everyone Loses Eventually Or Becomes Worse Than What They're Fighting", one of the two themes has to take precedence. The fights are all the same, because 'beating' 40K isnt about murdering its inhabitants, it's about fighting the excessive grimdarkosity that is its trademark.

Well, lucky us that Getter does have more than its fair share of grimdarkness:
-Named characters geting killed in the getter test runs.
-An obsolete Getter self-destructing to wipe out an enemy army. And the city they were fighting on. Civilians included.
-Enemies looting the already mentioned army of old getter models.
-Enemy stealing the latest-tech Getter robot, so the heroes need to fight in an outdated model, and win by the nick of their hairs thanks to their superior experience in handling that kind of machine (shame for all the lab personel killed in between).
-Getter energy outlawed because of all the colateral damage it is causing (they used plasma-based getters for some time then).
-Enemy setting up nuclear-level bombs in cities to try to blackmail Getter. Multiple cities proceeded to get wiped out of the map.
-They start using Getter energy again and eventually blow up much of the world so Earth is left in a post-apocalyptic state.
-Multiple named characters geting corrupted by the enemyat diferent stages. And they didn't get better.
-Once a full giant monster composed of sentient hostages that screamed for help. Followed by getter mercylessly crushing them to defeat the monster.

So no, Getter Robo was never really about "Manly Fighting Spirit Can Overcome All Odds". Its pilots are all trained pilots and/or technicians, and a significant number of them do die in the line of duty and don't get better. It's actually pretty grimdark on its own, the characters simply refuse to give up while they still have a mecha able to keep going.

Dragonus45

2012-04-04, 05:05 PM

Well, lucky us that Getter does have more than its fair share of grimdarkness:
-Named characters geting killed in the getter test runs.
-An obsolete Getter self-destructing to wipe out an enemy army. And the city they were fighting on. Civilians included.
-Enemies looting the already mentioned army of old getter models.
-Enemy stealing the latest-tech Getter robot, so the heroes need to fight in an outdated model, and win by the nick of their hairs thanks to their superior experience in handling that kind of machine (shame for all the lab personel killed in between).
-Getter energy outlawed because of all the colateral damage it is causing (they used plasma-based getters for some time then).
-Enemy setting up nuclear-level bombs in cities to try to blackmail Getter. Multiple cities proceeded to get wiped out of the map.
-They start using Getter energy again and eventually blow up much of the world so Earth is left in a post-apocalyptic state.
-Multiple named characters geting corrupted by the enemyat diferent stages. And they didn't get better.
-Once a full giant monster composed of sentient hostages that screamed for help. Followed by getter mercylessly crushing them to defeat the monster.

So no, Getter Robo was never really about "Manly Fighting Spirit Can Overcome All Odds". Its pilots are all trained pilots and/or technicians, and a significant number of them do die in the line of duty and don't get better. It's actually pretty grimdark on its own, the characters simply refuse to give up while they still have a mecha able to keep going.

Honestly that makes everyone involved seem just ripe and ready for Chaos to roll in and have fun.

Man on Fire

2012-04-04, 05:51 PM

In my opinion a good vs. thread is not about who would win but about getting together to describe the hows and whens of these insane scenarios and combining the knowledge of two fandoms to imagine something greater than the sum of it parts.

It's like fanfiction. I'm not a huge fan of fan fiction, but it does beat two sides shouting at each other about whose favourite thing is better.

I do agree that the Getter manga is quite gray in tone and as such I can perfectly see the pilots and the machine become corrupted by Chaos. Either the screaming rage kind or the quiet, scheming predestination kind.

I think that the level of connection Emperor's pilots have with Getta Energy would protect them from corruption. Unless Getter Rays would react strangely with Chaos like combining with it.

And suddenly Getta Emperor absorbs all five chaos gods and turns into Chaos Emperor and as getta energy, that connects all live in the Universe, gets poisoned by Warp, so everything that exist falls to chaos. Aside necros, who are then eaten by everybody else.

Also, Ken Ishikawa sure did drew some monsters with strong 40k style, by the way.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-04, 05:58 PM

Getter energy is pure, undiluted change, growth, and evolution, isn't it?

Rinvak

2012-04-04, 06:15 PM

Honestly that makes everyone involved seem just ripe and ready for Chaos to roll in and have fun.

I think that the level of connection Emperor's pilots have with Getta Energy would protect them from corruption. Unless Getter Rays would react strangely with Chaos like combining with it.

Could they really be I don't know what to call it, double possessed? The level of influence you see Shin Getter Robo exert over it's pilots in Getter Robo Go, and if Getter Emperor has even more of a mind altering effect, then when translating it to Warhammer 40k, the only way I'd think of describing it is as if it was possessing them.

deuterio12

2012-04-04, 06:22 PM

Honestly that makes everyone involved seem just ripe and ready for Chaos to roll in and have fun.

Hey, if GK tecnically don't count as corrupted by chaos, then Getter gets immunity to chaos corruption as well.

In particular because at the end of the day in getter universe, the final crew are those who managed to don't get corrupted by the monsters and proved skillful enough to stay alive to the final battle.

tensai_oni

2012-04-04, 06:36 PM

Do smaller getters also have MANLY FIGHTING SPIRIT of invincibility and unbeatability?

"Manly Fighting Spirit Can Overcome All Odds"

Good sir. I am sorry but if you really think this is what Getter Robo is about, then you had NO contact with the franchise.

Getter Robo is not Gurren Lagann.

Also, you seem to be operating under assumption that Warhammer 40k is a popular "beating boy" in vs threads, that people deliberately face it against their strongest favorite franchises to make these franchises look better in comparison as Wh40k is beaten.

In my experience it's the other way around. It's the Warhammer fans who start a vs thread and then act defensive when it turns out their 'verse has a chance of losing. This thread is a rare exception, not the rule.

Either way, vs threads are ultimately pointless because power of a fictional character or organisation never translates to writing quality.

Fan

2012-04-04, 06:42 PM

Good sir. I am sorry but if you really think this is what Getter Robo is about, then you had NO contact with the franchise.

Getter Robo is not Gurren Lagann.

Also, you seem to be operating under assumption that Warhammer 40k is a popular "beating boy" in vs threads, that people deliberately face it against their strongest favorite franchises to make these franchises look better in comparison as Wh40k is beaten.

In my experience it's the other way around. It's the Warhammer fans who start a vs thread and then act defensive when it turns out their 'verse has a chance of losing. This thread is a rare exception, not the rule.

Either way, vs threads are ultimately pointless because power of a fictional character or organisation never translates to writing quality.

Proof plox.

As far as I know the past three Star wars V.S. Star Trek V.S. WH40k threads were started by Trek fans for the majority, Byakurai being the one exception among those.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen just that it's a two way street, and that Trek, Star Wars, Culture, and every other settings fans get defensive just as easily. Why, because it's a debate thread.

Misery Esquire

2012-04-04, 06:48 PM

Good sir. I am sorry but if you really think this is what Getter Robo is about, then you had NO contact with the franchise.

That's correct, many 40K fans who join these know about some of the opponents that the dozens, if not hundreds, of people who bring challengers to the plate, STARTING these threads. The chances that everyone is familiar with every single fictional army/faction/universe brought to the table is... unlikely. At best.

Also, you seem to be operating under assumption that Warhammer 40k is a popular "beating boy" in vs threads, that people deliberately face it against their strongest favorite franchises to make these franchises look better in comparison as Wh40k is beaten.

In my experience it's the other way around. It's the Warhammer fans who start a vs thread and then act defensive when it turns out their 'verse has a chance of losing. This thread is a rare exception, not the rule.

This thread is the rule, not the exception. Many, many, many of these threads are started assuming that 40k will fail to live up to the enemy, and then there ends up the rabid fight about whether or not the Chaos Gods (and others) are strong enough to fight the nigh omnipotent-never ending-lineup of enemies.

Either way, vs threads are ultimately pointless because power of a fictional character or organisation never translates to writing quality.

...Um. I'm not sure what you mean by this?

The Glyphstone

2012-04-04, 07:15 PM

Hey, if GK tecnically don't count as corrupted by chaos, then Getter gets immunity to chaos corruption as well.

The Grey Knights have a galaxy-spanning group of secret police and propaganda experts to stop corruption before it appears, hide or destroy it when it does, and above all keep anyone from knowing it was there in the first place. Getter has none of those, you're still confusing in-universe fluff with literal truth, when GW goes out of their way to make it ambiguous if GKs are literally incorruptible or if they just hush up the occasional exception.

tensai_oni

2012-04-04, 08:03 PM

...Um. I'm not sure what you mean by this?

I mean that I would not mind if vs threads were banned from this forum altogether.

Consider the following:
-To be able to meaningfully participate in a vs thread you must be aware of both participants. Just second hand knowledge is usually not enough
-Also many people in a vs thread have a favorite and are going to push for the favorite's victory even if facts say something else
-Victory in a vs thread proves nothing

And I think vs threads are not a meaningful contribution to any forum. GitP already has rules against "astronauts vs cavemen". You could say I believe all vs threads to be astronauts vs cavemen.

deuterio12

2012-04-05, 07:15 AM

The Grey Knights have a galaxy-spanning group of secret police and propaganda experts to stop corruption before it appears, hide or destroy it when it does, and above all keep anyone from knowing it was there in the first place. Getter has none of those, you're still confusing in-universe fluff with literal truth, when GW goes out of their way to make it ambiguous if GKs are literally incorruptible or if they just hush up the occasional exception.

Actually, Getter Robo does have most of those. Besides the pilots, they basically have their personal army of special troops/detectives that goes around the world searching for the enemy, and more than once they try to solve the problem with more conventional weapons/tools before calling in the giant robot that does massive colateral damage.

Also they do have their fair share degree of secrecy, in one point one of the characters spending years in jail to protect an horrible secret.

Plus, please, the GK have no idea whatsoever of what's actually hapening in the galaxy. The IoM at best only controls a bunch of isolated areas, and chaos cults are indeed everywhere, each bidding their time until they think the time is ripe for open revolt. Whenever an exterior chaos force attacks, they're guaranteed to find reinforcments among the local population.

But I'll admit that never did Getter team purposedly killed innocents just to bathe in their blood and praise the enemy, like GK do.:smallwink:

The Glyphstone

2012-04-05, 08:36 AM

Plus, please, the GK have no idea whatsoever of what's actually hapening in the galaxy. The IoM at best only controls a bunch of isolated areas, and chaos cults are indeed everywhere, each bidding their time until they think the time is ripe for open revolt. Whenever an exterior chaos force attacks, they're guaranteed to find reinforcments among the local population.

I was referring to the Inquisition and the Knights themselves, not the Imperium in general. Or are you moving the goalposts away from your claim of 'because GKs are in-universe claimed to be corruption-proof, Getter is out-of-universe arbitrarily Chaos-immune'?

But I'll admit that never did Getter team purposedly killed innocents just to bathe in their blood and praise the enemy, like GK do.:smallwink:
So...you know even less about 40K or the GKs than I do about Getter, otherwise sauce?

Man on Fire

2012-04-05, 10:47 AM

So...you know even less about 40K or the GKs than I do about Getter, otherwise sauce?

By YOUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE Matt Ward (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Khornate_Knights)

The Glyphstone

2012-04-05, 11:31 AM

By YOUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE Matt Ward (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Khornate_Knights)

Oh,Ward is a moron, no argument. But that is extremely different than Deuterio's claim that said Knights butchered innocents "to bathe in their blood and praise the enemy".

Though while something else got missed...Can someone explain exactly what the mysterious Getter Rays are/do?

The Getter rays are basically pure passion and chaotic lifeforce made manifest

Getter Rays are essentially the Express Train Momentum of Human Will and Evolution.

To assume anything can defeat Getter Emperor is to assume anything can defeat the physical embodiement of the concept of life or evolution itself.

Getter energy is pure, undiluted change, growth, and evolution, isn't it?
Correct?

Man on Fire

2012-04-05, 12:51 PM

Misery Esquire

2012-04-05, 01:01 PM

By YOUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE Matt Ward (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Khornate_Knights)

Sorry, but Deuterio knows... Very, very little about the setting, and is ridiculously biased in the bit he does know.

(As above, MW is... Idiotic. At best.)

The Glyphstone

2012-04-05, 02:29 PM

Getter Rays are complicated thing - what you listed is true, but Getter Rays are also implied to be setient and slowly shaping manking to suit it, uncontroled they may lead us to the dark future saw in New getter Robo, in which humanity turns into ruthless cyborgs fighting for body parts but are also said to be way to true enlightment and advancing on higher spiritual level, they accelerated our evolution and killed the dinosaurs. Also, concept takes a lot of inspiration from Buddism.

Still, doesn't raw untamed evolution, even semi-sentient, seem like a really dangerous thing to be bringing anywhere within reach of Tzeentch? If the Getter Emperor is literally made out of solidified Getter Rays, which in themselves seem to basically be Tzeentchian ambrosia, isn't there an extremely high likelihood that this will all end horribly for pretty much everyone on both sides except him? Even if it can't be directly corrupted, its very presence would be an insane power-boost for him, scaling up the bigger and more powerful it got, and him being the most chronologically nonlinear of the powers means he'd have all of eternity to fit Getter into his plans once it showed up.

Steam

2012-04-05, 03:40 PM

I suppose, for the sake of fairness since you asked about Getter and my exact understanding of the Chaos Gods hinges more on their personalities and the fact that they're all undermined because of Malal/Malice it might be good to catch up on the workings of bird-boy here.

I know he's the agent of change and has lots of plans (which all ultimately will get undermined by someone else's, if not his own) but not other stuff like how he's the most non-linear of the four or how Getter's presence would grant him a power boost.

tensai_oni

2012-04-05, 03:44 PM

I'm done with this thread. I think it illustrates perfectly on my point of vs threads being pointless.

Misery Esquire

2012-04-05, 04:25 PM

I'm done with this thread. I think it illustrates perfectly on my point of vs threads being pointless.

That's good. ...Or something. :smallconfused:

I suppose, for the sake of fairness since you asked about Getter and my exact understanding of the Chaos Gods hinges more on their personalities and the fact that they're all undermined because of Malal/Malice it might be good to catch up on the workings of bird-boy here.

I know he's the agent of change and has lots of plans (which all ultimately will get undermined by someone else's, if not his own) but not other stuff like how he's the most non-linear of the four or how Getter's presence would grant him a power boost.

Ah. Yeah, Malal has been taken out of most of the contemporary fluff as an underminer, and the CGs tend to do it to themselves at this point.

Tzeentch isn't so much an Agent of Change as... He is change. And hope. And information. He deals in sorcery far more than the other three as a result of sorcery's tendancy to change things (and require complex rituals), and when the Warp is used in great enough power Time is a measurement of distance the same as inches are.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-05, 04:42 PM

I'm done with this thread. I think it illustrates perfectly on my point of vs threads being pointless.

I suppose, for the sake of fairness since you asked about Getter and my exact understanding of the Chaos Gods hinges more on their personalities and the fact that they're all undermined because of Malal/Malice it might be good to catch up on the workings of bird-boy here.

I know he's the agent of change and has lots of plans (which all ultimately will get undermined by someone else's, if not his own) but not other stuff like how he's the most non-linear of the four or how Getter's presence would grant him a power boost.

I'm done with this thread. I think it illustrates perfectly on my point of vs threads being pointless.

You realize that's why most of us participate, right? It's for the journey and the argument, not the destination.

I suppose, for the sake of fairness since you asked about Getter and my exact understanding of the Chaos Gods hinges more on their personalities and the fact that they're all undermined because of Malal/Malice it might be good to catch up on the workings of bird-boy here.

I know he's the agent of change and has lots of plans (which all ultimately will get undermined by someone else's, if not his own) but not other stuff like how he's the most non-linear of the four or how Getter's presence would grant him a power boost.

Okay, Tzeentch in a nutshell. He's the God of Change, Fate, Evolution, Intrigue, and Sorcery, the sentient embodiment of all those concepts. Technically, he's also the god of Hope, because 40K is screwed up that way. He's most famous for having uncountable schemes, plots, and plans that inevitably counteract or conflict with each other, because for Tzeentch, the act of making those plans is actually more important than any of them succeeding (though he does of course plan towards something, it's just so convoluted no one knows what). He's the most Warp-attuned of the four, and the Warp is extremely chronologically nonlinear like Kinslayer said - plus, his purview of Fate and destiny relies on his ability to see and exist in the future, present, and past simultaneously to a degree.

He gains power whenever someone hopes for, dreams of, or enacts change. The sheer density of concentrated change-ness that Getter and Getter Rays seem to embody would be a giant dose of the very essence of Tzeentch's reason to exist and the core of his being.

Dragonus45

2012-04-05, 06:48 PM

You realize that's why most of us participate, right? It's for the journey and the argument, not the destination.

Okay, Tzeentch in a nutshell. He's the God of Change, Fate, Evolution, Intrigue, and Sorcery, the sentient embodiment of all those concepts. Technically, he's also the god of Hope, because 40K is screwed up that way. He's most famous for having uncountable schemes, plots, and plans that inevitably counteract or conflict with each other, because for Tzeentch, the act of making those plans is actually more important than any of them succeeding (though he does of course plan towards something, it's just so convoluted no one knows what). He's the most Warp-attuned of the four, and the Warp is extremely chronologically nonlinear like Kinslayer said - plus, his purview of Fate and destiny relies on his ability to see and exist in the future, present, and past simultaneously to a degree.

He gains power whenever someone hopes for, dreams of, or enacts change. The sheer density of concentrated change-ness that Getter and Getter Rays seem to embody would be a giant dose of the very essence of Tzeentch's reason to exist and the core of his being.

You forgot the part where he may or may not be one of the surviving eldar gods, or that the god might be him. Or that they may be each other some of the time except of Wednesdays, since that's all according to plan.

Honestly though i hadn't considered the power boost it would give him, i've been putting more thought into what effect might be had from the C'tan. I've got this feeling in my head that they could almost be called the anti getter. Not sure how to elaborate it though, they do a lot of taking things and life and making them all the same. They halt evolution by there very nature when they cyborgitize people.

Man on Fire

2012-04-05, 07:16 PM

Still, doesn't raw untamed evolution, even semi-sentient, seem like a really dangerous thing to be bringing anywhere within reach of Tzeentch? If the Getter Emperor is literally made out of solidified Getter Rays, which in themselves seem to basically be Tzeentchian ambrosia, isn't there an extremely high likelihood that this will all end horribly for pretty much everyone on both sides except him? Even if it can't be directly corrupted, its very presence would be an insane power-boost for him, scaling up the bigger and more powerful it got, and him being the most chronologically nonlinear of the powers means he'd have all of eternity to fit Getter into his plans once it showed up.

It's tzeentch, even if you beat him, he still wins, because it's a change. Getter Emperor could eat him and in some way it would still be his voctory.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-05, 08:58 PM

It's tzeentch, even if you beat him, he still wins, because it's a change. Getter Emperor could eat him and in some way it would still be his voctory.

I was avoiding that perspective, because it feels like a cop-out to just say 'LolTzeentch, even if he loses he still wins', and strictly it's not true. At least one of his plans will involve getting eaten, but winning for him is as bad as losing, because it means the end of all his schemes when he'd rather keep them going indefinitely. Now, if Tzeentch gets eaten and manages to co-opt Getter Emperor rather than simply be absorbed and erased...that's a scary thought indeed.

Man on Fire

2012-04-05, 09:36 PM

I was avoiding that perspective, because it feels like a cop-out to just say 'LolTzeentch, even if he loses he still wins', and strictly it's not true. At least one of his plans will involve getting eaten, but winning for him is as bad as losing, because it means the end of all his schemes when he'd rather keep them going indefinitely. Now, if Tzeentch gets eaten and manages to co-opt Getter Emperor rather than simply be absorbed and erased...that's a scary thought indeed.

"Tzeentch wins anyway" thing doesn't really have a place in vs debates, it feels like chating, like when GW announces Space Marines to have "moral victory" in an game event in which they clearly lost.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-05, 09:38 PM

tyckspoon

2012-04-06, 01:11 AM

"Tzeentch wins anyway" thing doesn't really have a place in vs debates, it feels like chating, like when GW announces Space Marines to have "moral victory" in an game event in which they clearly lost.

I don't know if I'd say 'Getter destroys everything' counts as a 'Tzeentch wins anyway' scenario, even if you did want to bring it up. Sure, he'd have a plan for it, but it'd probably be flagged under "Undesirable, attempt to avoid" ... because having Getter be the only thing left in the universe (or *be* the universe if it manages to absorb enough stuff) is *really really boring.* There's no amusement to be had from planning when the only variable left to consider is that one ludicrously huge robot.

Rinvak

2012-04-06, 01:49 AM

Getter energy is pure, undiluted change, growth, and evolution, isn't it?

To describe it simply yes, except for the change. If I were to draw from certain implications from Getter Robo Armageddon I really don't think change would fit it quite well. Also I always got the impression that with out something to gather and amplify them, Getter Rays won't seem sentient. But once you gather more and more of them.... Well it won't seem all that sentient at first, but the more powerful the reactor, the more sentient the rays can be. But Getter Emperor, that's definitely beyond that point.

Heck the more I think about it, the more I'm open to the idea of treating it either as an Independent Warp Entity(Is there a better way to say this?), or you could treat it similar as a C'tan in some aspects.

And as for Tzeentch, really the relationship between getter rays and Tzeentch would probably be similar to the relationship between Ork WAAAGHS!!!! and Khorne.

Prime32

2012-04-06, 09:12 AM

To describe it simply yes, except for the change. If I were to draw from certain implications from Getter Robo Armageddon I really don't think change would fit it quite well. Also I always got the impression that with out something to gather and amplify them, Getter Rays won't seem sentient. But once you gather more and more of them.... Well it won't seem all that sentient at first, but the more powerful the reactor, the more sentient the rays can be. But Getter Emperor, that's definitely beyond that point.Just finished reading the Getter Robo Go manga. I'd say "you need something to amplify them before they become sentient" applies more to Getter's vessels than the force itself, since it was clearly making decisions long before any robots were built (like choosing for dinosaurs to be harmed by its manifestation while humans were evolved). It just didn't have any way to communicate directly with humans until they built Shin Getter (and made it their destiny to do so).