Savage Species: Illithid Savant abuse

[Arakune]

How to be eligible for Illithid Savant class?

More importantly, can you be eligible to it if you aren't a Mind Flyer all the time? Or do you retain your prestige class abilities if you temporarily switch back from it?

[Calanon]

How to be eligible for Illithid Savant class?

More importantly, can you be eligible to it if you aren't a Mind Flyer all the time? Or do you retain your prestige class abilities if you temporarily switch back from it?

Well seeing how your abilities are mostly dependent on your ability to extract the brains from creatures I'd say "No"

[Alleran]

Polymorph into a Mind Flayer. Eat a CR9 creature's brain.

Or be an Elan and Polymorph Any Object into a Mind Flayer, which should make it permanent (you can alternately do a double-PaO from a non-aberration base to get the same result). Then eat a CR9 creature's brain.

You can accomplish this with scrolls of Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object if you don't have the necessary level to cast the spells.

As to having the abilities if you no longer possess the requirements, I'm not entirely sure. I think the way it works is that unless you're applying the CW rules across the board (which are that you lose all class benefits except for BAB, skill points and saves if you no longer qualify for the PrC), you would retain the abilities you've already gained from the class levels, but would be unable to advance further.

I think somebody tried to get a Changeling to auto-qualify through their Change Shape ability once without needing to actually become a Mind Flayer, but that only works for humanoids, not aberrations.

[Morithias]

Isn't there also a "Half-illithid" template in Fiend Folio or something? You might be able to use that if you talk to your DM.

[Alleran]

Isn't there also a "Half-illithid" template in Fiend Folio or something? You might be able to use that if you talk to your DM.
That brings on discussion of exactly what qualifies as a "Mind Flayer" in the Illithid Savant requirements.

[Morithias]

That brings on discussion of exactly what qualifies as a "Mind Flayer" in the Illithid Savant requirements.

Well, does a half-elf qualify for elven prestige classes? That's the argument I would use.

[Calanon]

Isn't there also a "Half-illithid" template in Fiend Folio or something? You might be able to use that if you talk to your DM.

Half-Illithid template does not make you a mindflayer for the prerequisites of Illithid Savant... I wonder why? :smallconfused:

[Morithias]

Half-Illithid template does not make you a mindflayer for the prerequisites of Illithid Savant... I wonder why? :smallconfused:

Um..are those suppose to be links? Cause I can't click them. Could you explain what you're trying to say?

[Jeff the Green]

I think somebody tried to get a Changeling to auto-qualify through their Change Shape ability once without needing to actually become a Mind Flayer, but that only works for humanoids, not aberrations.

Yeah, but Improved Minor Shapechange is based off of Alter Self, so if you could become an aberration somehow it would work.


Um..are those suppose to be links? Cause I can't click them. Could you explain what you're trying to say?

Blue indicates sarcasm.

[Morithias]

Blue indicates sarcasm.

Oh thanks.

[Alleran]

Well, does a half-elf qualify for elven prestige classes? That's the argument I would use.
I believe half-elves are a specific case:

"Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf."

They're considered to be an elf for racial purposes, so they couldn't enter a human-only prestige class because they don't count as human (they're half-human, but that isn't enough).

[Arakune]

So, unless I use CW rules for prestige classes I should be able to get it.

With only three levels of IS I can get pretty much anything I need.

[Calanon]

So, unless I use CW rules for prestige classes I should be able to get it.

With only three levels of IS I can get pretty much anything I need.

If we never used CW rules for Prestige Classes I would be so happy... :smallsmile:

[Wavelab]

You will probably need the same abuse that is used to get beholder mage for a non beholder. IIRC it goes as follows:

Be an Elan. This is required because you have to be an abberation to be polymorphed into one.
Get polymorph cast on you, turning you into a illithid.
Eat a brain.
Level up and gain the prestige class.

[Calanon]

You will probably need the same abuse that is used to get beholder mage for a non beholder. IIRC it goes as follows:

Be an Elan. This is required because you have to be an abberation to be polymorphed into one.
Get polymorph cast on you, turning you into a illithid.
Eat a brain.
Level up and gain the prestige class.

This might seem off topic but it will eventually have a point but what book is changeling in? =3=;;

[Morithias]

This might seem off topic but it will eventually have a point but what book is changeling in? =3=;;

Eberron Campaign Setting I think.

[Calanon]

Eberron Campaign Setting I think.

I see... Nevermind loses all of its meaning... :smallannoyed: Was going to make an Egotist Elan that is mostly in the form of a Mindflayer to adopt the class...

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble with the Elan to Mind FLayer 'trick' is that Polymorph Any Object doesn't give game terms 'type' or 'subtype' for the duration factors, but fluff terms like 'class' and 'kingdom', which are much more up in the air. A mind flayer and an elan are certainly the same kingdom, but it is doubtful that mind flayers are mammals. And given the massive intelligence boost from making a player character mind flayer, it is doubtful the target would end up the same intelligence.
In short, though very ,very open to DM interpretation, I really doubt an Elan to Mind Flayer PAO should count as Permanent.

[Wavelab]

Eberron Campaign Setting I think.

I don't know since I don't play Eberron but:

There is also a changeling in Monster manual III (or 3 for you anti-roman-numeral people).

So Calanon this might still help.

[Calanon]

I don't know since I don't play Eberron but:

There is also a changeling in Monster manual III (or 3 for you anti-roman-numeral people).

So Calanon this might still help.

Doesn't matter they are both the same... Eberron just gives it more detail :smallannoyed: Thanks for the help though "Morta" :smallamused:

[Wavelab]

Doesn't matter they are both the same... Eberron just gives it more detail :smallannoyed: Thanks for the help though "Morta" :smallamused:

A pleasure my dear :smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

Following the Races of Destiny variant for Half-X races the Half-Illithid should count. Slap that on an Incarnate Construct Warforged and use LA buyoff and a theoretical character could enter Illithid Savant with 0 LA.

[Varil]

Following the Races of Destiny variant for Half-X races the Half-Illithid should count. Slap that on an Incarnate Construct Warforged and use LA buyoff and a theoretical character could enter Illithid Savant with 0 LA.

0 LA and one Power Attack with a two-handed DMG by your DM. :smallamused:

[Calanon]

0 LA and one Power Attack with a two-handed DMG by your DM. :smallamused:

Only one power attack? I think your DM might go insane... in fact he will go so insane that he will take the he will devote himself to an Elder Evil and automatically gain the Murderous Intent (Munchkin) and Harvester of Souls feats...

[Zaq]

A mind flayer and an elan are certainly the same kingdom, but it is doubtful that mind flayers are mammals.

To be fair, I'm not sure that elans are mammals either.

[Agent 451]

Only one power attack?

Like Chuck Norris, your DM only ever needs one power attack...

[Mikeavelli]

Following the Races of Destiny variant for Half-X races the Half-Illithid should count. Slap that on an Incarnate Construct Warforged and use LA buyoff and a theoretical character could enter Illithid Savant with 0 LA.

A Robot man that absorbs the powers of defeated foes....

Megaman?

[Ravens_cry]

To be fair, I'm not sure that elans are mammals either.
What makes you say that?
Sure, they are infertile, but the elan still have human attributes I believe, including the one that counts most for what makes a mammal.

[Suddo]

True Mind Switch can work too. Or a normal Mind switch, while restraining yourself and the target. It should be noted that a DM could easily rule that while you are not in a form that qualifies for the PrC you lose all abilities of the PrC.

[hex0]

What makes you say that?
Sure, they are infertile, but the elan still have human attributes I believe, including the one that counts most for what makes a mammal.

Lactation? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

Lactation? :smallconfused:
Mammary glands are what make a mammal.
It's even in the name.
Mule, or men for that matter, are still mammals, even if they never use those mammary glands.

[hex0]

Mammary glands are what make a mammal.
It's even in the name.
Mule, or men for that matter, are still mammals, even if they never use those mammary glands.

I know Elans don't have much written as to biology so I guess it is up the DM?

[Ravens_cry]

I know Elans don't have much written as to biology so I guess it is up the DM?

It's fluff I know, but Polymorph Any Object is based on fluff descriptions, and looking at the picture (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80443.jpg) from wizards, it looks like the lady has mammary glands to me.

[tyckspoon]

And given the massive intelligence boost from making a player character mind flayer, it is doubtful the target would end up the same intelligence.
.

? Your standard MM1 Mind Flayer is only Intelligence 19. That's not a hard number to reach, especially as you can use a Headband of Intelligence or a Fox's Cunning spell to cover a large chunk of it. (If your DM is of the opinion that such bonuses don't count [this is not supported in the rules anywhere, btw] or just being a hardliner about it to supposedly 'balance' things, well, it's *still* not hard to get. 16/18 starting stat, +Int race, throw your level 4 stat point in there if you have to.) 5 same kingdom, 2 same size, 2 Intelligence = Permanent.

[Calanon]

5 same kingdom, 2 same size, 2 Intelligence = Permanent.

DISPEL MAGIC! :biggrin:

[hex0]

:smallconfused:
DISPEL MAGIC! :biggrin:

Oh crap! Though apparently if you cast it on your self, then permanacy isn't subject to dispel?

[Ravens_cry]

? Your standard MM1 Mind Flayer is only Intelligence 19. That's not a hard number to reach, especially as you can use a Headband of Intelligence or a Fox's Cunning spell to cover a large chunk of it. (If your DM is of the opinion that such bonuses don't count [this is not supported in the rules anywhere, btw] or just being a hardliner about it to supposedly 'balance' things, well, it's *still* not hard to get. 16/18 starting stat, +Int race, throw your level 4 stat point in there if you have to.) 5 same kingdom, 2 same size, 2 Intelligence = Permanent.
Are you using the straight mindflayer or the player character adjustments?
Yes, you can play a mindflayer, it's just that they are LA 8 or something.
I think they get a +8 to intelligence or something.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Also, they are not the same kingdom. Kingdom the fluff term ≠ type the game term.

[tyckspoon]

Also, they are not the same kingdom. Kingdom the fluff term ≠ type the game term.

Animal, vegetable, mineral. The categories given by the spell for 'Kingdom'. A Mind Flayer certainly is not a mineral or a vegetable.

[Varil]

Animal, vegetable, mineral. The categories given by the spell for 'Kingdom'. A Mind Flayer certainly is not a mineral or a vegetable.

What if they have the Mineral Warrior template? For that matter, it begs the question of what constructs in general fall under. Or Plant type monsters.


...I hate Polymorph spells.

[Ravens_cry]

Animal, vegetable, mineral. The categories given by the spell for 'Kingdom'. A Mind Flayer certainly is not a mineral or a vegetable.

Doh! I meant they are not the same class.:smallredface:
I stand by what I said about intelligence though.

[tyckspoon]

Doh! I meant they are not the same class.:smallredface:
I stand by what I said about intelligence though.

Eh. You've got Kingdom and Size as gimmes, you only have to hit one of the other likenesses to make it permanent. 'Class' is an incredibly nebulous thing, so I'll leave that alone. 'Related' is a bit odd, but you could make a good argument for a Half-Illithid or a character with an Illithid Heritage feat or two.

For Intelligence, yes, I was using the straight stat block of the Illithid, because that's most consistent with other Polymorphing effects. Polymorph and Shapechange don't give you the ability adjustments of whatever you turn into, they just replace your ability score outright. Similarly, I would take 'gives you the Intelligence score' as a complete replacement, not giving you the racial adjustments of the creature, and it follows to me that the comparison for duration factor would likewise be based on comparing the total scores.

(Although there's some benefit to running it the way I think you're suggesting too- becoming a Troll or a Hydra or something is a lot more manageable when it just means you get a -4 Int adjustment instead of dropping from 20+ to 6.)

[Alleran]

True Mind Switch can work too. Or a normal Mind switch, while restraining yourself and the target. It should be noted that a DM could easily rule that while you are not in a form that qualifies for the PrC you lose all abilities of the PrC.
That would make it rather odd if you were shapechanged or polymorphed from your new Mind Flayer base form. Cast shapechange with your brain-munch-result spellcasting, turn into a dragon... and suddenly can't be turned into a dragon, because you're no longer a Mind Flayer and thus won't have access to your absorbed spellcasting in the first place.

[Malimar]

Following the Races of Destiny variant for Half-X races the Half-Illithid should count.

But half-Illithid isn't actually half-Illithid (if "half-X" means "the offspring of a human and an X"), though! I don't know what possessed them to use the prefix "half-". So I wouldn't allow rules or guidelines for Half-anything else (with the possible exception of Half-Golem, another not-actually-half-the-thing template) to apply or even serve as precedent for Half-Illithid.

That said, half-illithid is just what you get when you stick an illithid larva in anything other than a human. So I'd rule that they're more like illithids than the theoretical offspring of an illithid and a human would be. I would certainly allow half-illithid to qualify for anything illithid qualifies for.

But there's not necessarily much RAW support for that.

[Chronos]

? Your standard MM1 Mind Flayer is only Intelligence 19.And your standard Elan is only Intelligence 11. Elan -> Mind Flayer is an increase in intelligence.

The problem I have with PAO to qualify for monster-only PrCs (well, one of the problems, anyway) is wouldn't PAO also give you the monster's LA? A beholder is LA --, so a player character polymorphed into one shouldn't be able to gain further levels at all. And mind flayers do have a numerical LA, but an impractically high one, and if you were willing to accept that, why not just play one to begin with?