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Empedocles
2012-04-01, 12:19 AM
Discussion thread for the Golden Cauldron contest.

Current Contest: Golden Cauldron Contest I (PrC) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238537)

Just so that the first few posts make sense, this was originally the page for the first contest.

dspeyer
2012-04-01, 11:07 PM
Duskfist

Alternate class features for Duskblades who eschew blades.

Lose:
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies
Armored Mage


Gain:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Unarmed damage progression as monk
Add int modifier to AC
Your fists count as masterwork weapons for spells and crafting feats that effect weapons


Change:
Arcane Channeling only works with unarmed strikes

Empedocles
2012-04-02, 08:02 PM
This is obviously not taking off...ah well I'll give it another day or so.

Thanks dspeyer for the duskfist pretty cool :smallsmile:

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-02, 08:14 PM
It'd take off better if you had a better picture, or one that was more suggestive of something specific.

Empedocles
2012-04-02, 08:30 PM
How about one of these?

http://i.imgur.com/JdaFl.jpg

orrrr....

http://i.imgur.com/923iE.jpg

GuesssWho
2012-04-03, 05:29 AM
I like the second one. Looks like a demon knight or something.

Morph Bark
2012-04-03, 07:36 AM
There actually were two contests of this sort a while ago, one involving something foresty and the other having a picture of a half-naked guy in the wild with a lantern. The first got a good amount of attention, but the second one less so, so a third was never put up.

Madara
2012-04-03, 09:15 AM
I think I'd participate, but my suggestions for you:


1. Throw down some rules, then it looks more official.
2. Start a new 'official' thread, and turn this one into the discussion thread.
3. Have you seen what they do for Iron Chef optimization? Have people PM you their stuff, and then you post them at the same time in the reserved posts.
4.
Monster, PrC, new ruleset, new base class, race, Monster Class, spells, feats...it's all fair game!

I'm thinking that there won't be judging and winners? Because It'd be hard to compare feats to races..ect. You could always change it up. 'This week is X picture, make a....spell.' and change the homebrew each contest.

Hyudra
2012-04-03, 09:29 AM
Such a contest really does demand a better picture. I mean, that picture isn't particularly well drawn, or anatomically correct, it doesn't leave a whole lot of options open, and the fact that it's anime is, well... I don't mind anime, but the art style doesn't really lend itself to 3.5 as we're used to it.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 09:48 AM
Alright, I think I agree with everything so far. I'll put up an official thread with a (hopefully) better picture and so that it's easier to judge I'll make it so that every contest is a specific type of homebrew.

My only concern is that some contests will call for much more in depth homebrew then others. It's easier to make a feat then a base class...any suggestions to balance that?

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-03, 09:48 AM
Alright, I think I agree with everything so far. I'll put up an official thread with a (hopefully) better picture and so that it's easier to judge I'll make it so that every contest is a specific type of homebrew.

My only concern is that some contests will call for much more in depth homebrew then others. It's easier to make a feat then a base class...any suggestions to balance that?

Just try to alternate?

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 09:52 AM
Fair enough. Should I put pictures on here so people can decide which ones they like the most first to prevent a repetition of what happened at first?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-04-03, 09:55 AM
There actually were two contests of this sort a while ago, one involving something foresty and the other having a picture of a half-naked guy in the wild with a lantern. The first got a good amount of attention, but the second one less so, so a third was never put up.

I ran both, actually. Lies. I forgot. I ran ONE of them. The overall decision I came to was that it was a bit TO dependent on good picture quality, and that it was impossible to tell what was a good picture and what wasn't. Both pictures used were VERY thematically strong, but the one took off and one didn't...and having a dead month is often relatively fatal to a small-scale contest. The smallest thing can twist these contests more than any other: the picture just might not inspire, however good it is.

Good picture quality is a MUST though. It needs to be well drawn, with strong visuals and possible cues to tie creation into. It also can't be to obviously one thing: I'd never use an obvious picture of a Paladin, for example...but I *might* use one of an ambiguous warrior standing in a shaft of sunlight. Divine? Possibly. Good? Possibly. But neither is certain.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 09:57 AM
Alright, thanks for the advice! I think I'll try to find about 5 pictures and put them up here for people to decide which one they like best.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-03, 10:06 AM
I ran both, actually. Lies. I forgot. I ran ONE of them. The overall decision I came to was that it was a bit TO dependent on good picture quality, and that it was impossible to tell what was a good picture and what wasn't. Both pictures used were VERY thematically strong, but the one took off and one didn't...and having a dead month is often relatively fatal to a small-scale contest. The smallest thing can twist these contests more than any other: the picture just might not inspire, however good it is.

Good picture quality is a MUST though. It needs to be well drawn, with strong visuals and possible cues to tie creation into. It also can't be to obviously one thing: I'd never use an obvious picture of a Paladin, for example...but I *might* use one of an ambiguous warrior standing in a shaft of sunlight. Divine? Possibly. Good? Possibly. But neither is certain.

Speaking of, the PrC contest needs a new host.

I wonder who could do that.....

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-04-03, 10:11 AM
Speaking of, the PrC contest needs a new host.

I wonder who could do that.....

Wait, really? The contest is just down?

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-03, 10:12 AM
Wait, really? The contest is just down?

Yeah. Errant vanished. We were thinking about starting a new one and proposed a bunch of themes but no poll/host manifested so it's kinda stalling out.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 10:13 AM
How about 1 of these 3 images for the contest? I'm thinking a base or PrC for the first contest since that's more in depth homebrew...

http://i.imgur.com/eetYc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zBFhm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ld7KG.jpg

Hyudra
2012-04-03, 10:15 AM
First could work, but it's... still not very illustrative of anything. I -might- participate, but it doesn't get me excited.

Second maybe sorta works, but I wouldn't participate, just speaking for myself.

Third is kinda bland. Woo, barbarian on a dinosaur. Doesn't inspire.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-04-03, 10:17 AM
First one is great. Is that lady a rogue, a fighter, a mage? Is that fire, magic, light, or something else entirely? Is the symbol on the cloak decorative, or representative of an organization? There are a number of ambiguities around the image, and it remains a STRONG image. I could do MANY things and still fit that image. Good picture.

The second one I don't like. It's a small child and a monster...not QUITE enough to play with there, in my mind. I *can* do some really interesting spins on it, but I don't think there's quite enough to bit into. If it weren't a small child, we'd have more room to play with.

The third is a great picture, but feels a bit to limited to me. From that picture we've got a magic-barbarian (or just a barbarian with a flaming sword) on a mount...and there aren't enough unusual aspects to really make things stand out, in my mind. It's not BAD, but neither is it excellent.

Finally, figure out what we're making. It's to open ended and hard to judge if it's a MAKE ANYTHING contest. Try focusing it on something specific, like a class, PrC, spell, feat, so forth. I recommend PrC.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 10:20 AM
Alright, so IF I was going to use the 1st one, what would be the best type of homebrew to have people create. A feat? A class? A PrC? An organization?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-04-03, 10:22 AM
Alright, so IF I was going to use the 1st one, what would be the best type of homebrew to have people create. A feat? A class? A PrC? An organization?

Class, PrC, or Organization would all be strong contenders.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 10:27 AM
How about an organization with a class based on it?

Clawhound
2012-04-03, 02:03 PM
Tattoo of Flaming Fists: You turn your fists into flaming weapons. All your unarmed attacks now do +1d6 fire damage. 750 gp.

[Cost is off-the-cuff. It should cost the same as a Crystal.]

Madara
2012-04-03, 05:22 PM
I've never been a big fan of organizations. Not enough crunch. Also, you'll notice that there aren't very many organizations posted on this board, so you may get less participation.


As for the pictures, I like the second the best. The first is pretty good, although I'm sick of fire.


I recommend PrC.

Seconded. Its probably the strongest type of homebrew. We should have some judging criteria, I suggest:




PrC Judging Criteria
1. Accessibility: Do the requirements limit the class to a specific build? Can people achieve early entry? Most PrCs are entered at level 6, where does this one fall? (On a scale of 1 to 5 points)

2. Theme: Does the class fit the picture given? Does the class have abilities that fit a single theme: I.E. Fire-Eating guy who can eat fire, spit fire, and light himself on fire. (On a scale of 1 to 10 points)

3. Power: Most homebrew aims for tier 3. Other tiers are acceptable if it makes sense. Is this class overpowered? Underpowered? Does it have broken abilities? Can it be used for broken combos(That don't already exist, like wrightopocalypse or chain-gating)? Is it successful at what it does?(Can a fire spellcaster class make fire attacks affect a variety of enemies? Does it pull a TN and be worse than sticking with the base class?(On a scale of 1 to 5 points)

4. Style: Hardest to judge of all categories. Are there unique abilities rather than a static +1 attack bonus? Did it throw an unusual twist on the picture given? Or does it just mimic existing classes? Does it have empty levels? Is it better off as a dip class?(On a scale of 1 to 10 points)

5. Writing: Does the class description flow well? Is it in a table format? Easy to read? Good punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure...ect? Do they properly explain the abilities? (On a scale of 1 to 3 points)

Total score out of 33pts.


You'll notice categories have different point values. That's because not all categories are equal. In homebrew, we value the proper writing, but that can be corrected. Style and Theme are considered more important to a homebrewer. You'll notice that I tried to keep fluff points and crunch points about equal.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 05:33 PM
I've never been a big fan of organizations. Not enough crunch. Also, you'll notice that there aren't very many organizations posted on this board, so you may get less participation.


As for the pictures, I like the second the best. The first is pretty good, although I'm sick of fire.



Seconded. Its probably the strongest type of homebrew. We should have some judging criteria, I suggest:




PrC Judging Criteria
1. Accessibility: Do the requirements limit the class to a specific build? Can people achieve early entry? Most PrCs are entered at level 6, where does this one fall? (On a scale of 1 to 5 points)

2. Theme: Does the class fit the picture given? Does the class have abilities that fit a single theme: I.E. Fire-Eating guy who can eat fire, spit fire, and light himself on fire. (On a scale of 1 to 10 points)

3. Power: Most homebrew aims for tier 3. Other tiers are acceptable if it makes sense. Is this class overpowered? Underpowered? Does it have broken abilities? Can it be used for broken combos(That don't already exist, like wrightopocalypse or chain-gating)? Is it successful at what it does?(Can a fire spellcaster class make fire attacks affect a variety of enemies? Does it pull a TN and be worse than sticking with the base class?(On a scale of 1 to 5 points)

4. Style: Hardest to judge of all categories. Are there unique abilities rather than a static +1 attack bonus? Did it throw an unusual twist on the picture given? Or does it just mimic existing classes? Does it have empty levels? Is it better off as a dip class?(On a scale of 1 to 10 points)

5. Writing: Does the class description flow well? Is it in a table format? Easy to read? Good punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure...ect? Do they properly explain the abilities? (On a scale of 1 to 3 points)

Total score out of 33pts.


You'll notice categories have different point values. That's because not all categories are equal. In homebrew, we value the proper writing, but that can be corrected. Style and Theme are considered more important to a homebrewer. You'll notice that I tried to keep fluff points and crunch points about equal.

Alright, I pretty much agree with that. I'm going to put up a contest thread with the first picture and have it be a PrC without an organization, since I think that'd hurt participation. If the contest takes off I might put that in for a later contest, but for now I'm just going to try to keep people interested. For the judging criteria, I think I'd bring the Power up to 10 points and have people specify what Tier they're aiming for (reserving the right to deduct points for brokenness or uselessness even if they are going for Tier 1 or 5 respectively). Also, add in 2 points for judge's discretion.

Suggestions for what to call this contest?

Madara
2012-04-03, 05:36 PM
Something like...


Gold Cauldron Homebrew Contest I:Picture PrC

Cauldron because that's where brew comes from.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 05:38 PM
Something like...


Gold Cauldron Homebrew Contest I:Picture PrC

Cauldron because that's where brew comes from.

Like it! I'll put up an official thread with much more formal rules (looking to the other contests as inspiration).

Madara
2012-04-03, 05:43 PM
Awesome sauce. If I like the picture, I'll reserve a post, but if not, then I'll judge. :smallsmile:


Annnd I'm gonna judge :smallsmile:

I have an idea, which I think will be awesome! :smallbiggrin:

JoshuaZ
2012-04-03, 07:37 PM
So is there now a chosen picture and rules somewhere?

Madara
2012-04-03, 07:40 PM
Take a look (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238537)

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 07:40 PM
Indeed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238537).

EDIT: Madara beat me to it :smallwink:

Ziegander
2012-04-03, 07:43 PM
I have had giant repositories of fantasy art in the past. I would like to do my part in contributing to the potential art to be used in the contests if that's okay.

And actually, considering some of the remarks in this thread regarding the art, it might be prudent to appoint an art selection board to select and approve pieces of art for each contest.

For example, Vilpich, say you wanted to run a Golden Cauldron Contest and you wanted to elicit a monster homebrew. Well, then you'd have an art selection board (perhaps just made up of the contest's judges) that would pick the art that gets used for the contest.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 07:49 PM
I have had giant repositories of fantasy art in the past. I would like to do my part in contributing to the potential art to be used in the contests if that's okay.

And actually, considering some of the remarks in this thread regarding the art, it might be prudent to appoint an art selection board to select and approve pieces of art for each contest.

For example, Vilpich, say you wanted to run a Golden Cauldron Contest and you wanted to elicit a monster homebrew. Well, then you'd have an art selection board (perhaps just made up of the contest's judges) that would pick the art that gets used for the contest.

That's definitely a good idea, especially based on what I heard from some people earlier. I'll put up a thread somewhere, maybe in gaming, in a few days. I'll select up to 10 people, and anyone wishing to apply should put up 3 or 4 pieces of art they'd like to see in the contest.

JoshuaZ
2012-04-03, 07:51 PM
Hmm, I may enter this, although the judging system seems complicated. The usual PrC contest just uses a straight voting system and that seems to work well enough. I really don't like the idea of taking off points for making a PrC that isn't a nice number of levels. Some PrCs just naturally aren't 5 or 10 levels, and that's ok. I don't think that that should be an intrinsic style problem.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 08:03 PM
You don't automatically get points deducted. It's up to the judge if 5 or 15 levels (or however many you choose) is appropriate. However, I am thinking of changing this to a basic voting contest much like the Base Class Contest.

Hyudra
2012-04-03, 08:41 PM
Rather than a basic vote, what if people ranked the entries from best to worst, then entries got tallied up.

So I might rank them:
1. Golden Cloak
2. Flameshadow Initiate
3. Chosen of Marra
4. Queen in Yellow
5. Justicar
6. Plagueflame Apprentice

While someone else might rate them:
1. Chosen of Marra
2. Flameshadow Initiate
3. Queen in Yellow
4. Justicar
5. Golden Cloak
6. Plagueflame Apprentice

Total them up (1st place = 6 points, 2nd = 5, 3rd =4, etc) and you have:
10 points: Chosen of Marra
10 points: Flameshadow Initiate
7 points: Golden Cloak
7 points: Queen in Yellow
5 points: Justicar
2 points: Plagueflame Apprentice

Madara
2012-04-03, 08:42 PM
I don't think basic voting is as good an idea. Many of the other forum contests use the judging with scores, and are quite successful.

Question, for the class's picture, are we using the example image, or our own?

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 09:03 PM
I don't think basic voting is as good an idea. Many of the other forum contests use the judging with scores, and are quite successful.

Question, for the class's picture, are we using the example image, or our own?

The image shown on the thread is the one you're using for the 1st contest :smallcool:

I'll do judging for this contest, but if I don't get very many judges then I'll switch to voting (ranking voting, like with the base class challenge).

Madara
2012-04-03, 09:05 PM
Well, there you go. That's it for now. I figured I'd get most of it done, since I'll be busy tomorrow. :smallamused:

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 09:14 PM
Very interesting...the Potentialist. Inspired by Deidara from Naruto, correct? Haven't read that in ages.

EDIT: I feel like I have to like the Potentialist, because when I replied I was officially an orc in the playground, not a dwarf. Note sure why... :smallbiggrin:

Wyntonian
2012-04-03, 09:34 PM
Three things:

The word ekphrasis comes from the Greek "speak out", and is a poetic style where one is given an image, item, whatever and composes something beautiful using it as inspiration. I think it would do nicely for this.

Two, I'd recommend both trolling the Snakes and Cakes thread, lots of good pictures there. Also, the Iron Chef has an awfully time-tested voting pattern which you might be interested in imitating. It would take a bit of change, but eh.

Three, Oh my Asmodeus this is freaking great I love this yes. That is all.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 09:39 PM
Three things:

The word ekphrasis comes from the Greek "speak out", and is a poetic style where one is given an image, item, whatever and composes something beautiful using it as inspiration. I think it would do nicely for this.

Two, I'd recommend both trolling the Snakes and Cakes thread, lots of good pictures there. Also, the Iron Chef has an awfully time-tested voting pattern which you might be interested in imitating. It would take a bit of change, but eh.

Three, Oh my Asmodeus this is freaking great I love this yes. That is all.

The ekphrasis thing is a great idea.

Trolling can be fun! :smallyuk: (seriously, thanks for the resource)

Annnnddddd I can feel the love! :elan:

Madara
2012-04-03, 10:06 PM
Very interesting...the Potentialist. Inspired by Deidara from Naruto, correct? Haven't read that in ages.


Ironically, it was inspired from a GURPS character, who was inspired by some other thing which was inspired from Deidara. Part way through writing the class, however, I became away of its similarity and added the quote. Ah GURPS, good times :smallsmile:

JoshuaZ
2012-04-03, 10:11 PM
Ok. I have my idea- An order of mages-warriors who are devoted to dealing with the magic which threaten the structure of reality as a whole.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 10:11 PM
Ironically, it was inspired from a GURPS character, who was inspired by some other thing which was inspired from Deidara. Part way through writing the class, however, I became away of its similarity and added the quote. Ah GURPS, good times :smallsmile:

never actually played GURPS, since I really like base classes. Never been big on class-less systems...:smallconfused:

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 10:12 PM
Ok. I have my idea- An order of mages-warriors who are devoted to dealing with the magic which threaten the structure of reality as a whole.

Interesting :smallcool:

JoshuaZ
2012-04-03, 10:21 PM
Is there a deadline for when entries should be finished?

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-03, 10:27 PM
Is there a deadline for when entries should be finished?

If not, there really, really should be.

Empedocles
2012-04-03, 10:28 PM
I've actually been thinking about when it should be. Thinking April 30th.

Madara
2012-04-04, 07:33 AM
never actually played GURPS, since I really like base classes. Never been big on class-less systems...:smallconfused:

The flexibility will blow your mind :smalleek: :smallamused:

DonQuixote
2012-04-05, 12:46 PM
So, I've had an idea. However! This idea does technically require that I ask a question, since the rules don't discuss one particular issue.

Are contestants allowed to submit entries that are designed for use with other, established homebrew projects?

(Basically, I had an idea for a spellshaping prestige class, but I wasn't sure if the reliance on non-WotC material would disqualify it.)

The-Mage-King
2012-04-05, 01:06 PM
Hm.


Considering entering this. Is it alright to make something that uses other homebrew?

Madara
2012-04-05, 01:42 PM
That's an interesting question. I would think that its possible...but it might be harder for the judges to judge if they aren't familiar with the other work.



Considering entering this. Is it alright to make something that uses other homebrew?


I think if you can link it, it should be fine. But keep in mind, if the PrC is limited specificity to your other homebrew, you'd probably get docked in accessibility.


So, I've had an idea. However! This idea does technically require that I ask a question, since the rules don't discuss one particular issue.

Are contestants allowed to submit entries that are designed for use with other, established homebrew projects?

(Basically, I had an idea for a spellshaping prestige class, but I wasn't sure if the reliance on non-WotC material would disqualify it.)

I think this would depend on the judges. For them to learn a whole new system or a large amount of mechanics would be difficult. However, if they are already familiar with the material, it might work.

On the other hand, that would give you a head start, since you're using homebrew material that you already created. So, I can see it going both ways.

DonQuixote
2012-04-05, 02:05 PM
But keep in mind, if the PrC is limited specificity to your other homebrew, you'd probably get docked in accessibility.

I was under the impression that "Accessibility" had more to do with how difficult it was to qualify for the class, rather than the prevalence of the material used. By this logic, wouldn't anything that requires non-SRD material be docked?


On the other hand, that would give you a head start, since you're using homebrew material that you already created. So, I can see it going both ways.

In this particular case, it's pretty much the same end effect as building a martial adept or spellcasting prestige class. My idea has more to do with the character's non-combat capabilities, so I like the idea of being able to just advance an existing track.

Madara
2012-04-05, 02:27 PM
I was under the impression that "Accessibility" had more to do with how difficult it was to qualify for the class, rather than the prevalence of the material used. By this logic, wouldn't anything that requires non-SRD material be docked?



You misunderstood me, that's exactly what I meant. I mean that if you make a class that let's say requires shaper level 5, then a lot of base classes wouldn't qualify, so it would be docked.

However, if the class has normal prereqs and grants shaping or whatever, it'd be fine.

But again, I'd leave it up to the judges, I don't know if they are up to learning new material, or if this qualifies as using existing homebrew.

DonQuixote
2012-04-05, 02:31 PM
Right, but what's the difference, technically speaking, between a shaper level requirement and a caster level requirement? Heck, qualifying by shaper level is technically easier, since a character without any levels in a spellshaping class still has a shaper level equal to 1/2 her character level.

Edit: Not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to figure out whether I need to do a ground-up rebuild.

Madara
2012-04-05, 02:36 PM
I can't give you a definitive answer, I just want the judges to know what is questionable about it.

To simplify and end this discussion:
1. Could be considered that it falls under the "Previous Homebrew" rule.

a. and would therefore be giving you an edge over other contestants.
b. would require the judges to become familiar with you other work, in addition to your entry.
2. May cause deductions in accessibility if it requires a specific shaping circle, because it would mean that of all published base classes would need a dip in your other homebrew class in order to qualify.

As I said, I'd leave it up to the judges.

Edit: Although, I would suggest you do a ground up if you don't want to wait for the judges decision, because a ground up would be guaranteed acceptance.

DonQuixote
2012-04-05, 02:55 PM
Ground-up also requires me to completely revise my idea, so--given that I have twenty-five days--I think I'll wait for a judge's ruling.

Empedocles
2012-04-05, 03:12 PM
So, I've had an idea. However! This idea does technically require that I ask a question, since the rules don't discuss one particular issue.

Are contestants allowed to submit entries that are designed for use with other, established homebrew projects?

(Basically, I had an idea for a spellshaping prestige class, but I wasn't sure if the reliance on non-WotC material would disqualify it.)

It's fine to make a PrC based on existing homebrew. Just keep in mind that if the judge's don't want to learn about said homebrew system, it's unlikely that they'll give you as high a score as they otherwise might. On the other hand, most judges will probably take the time to at least learn the basics :smallsmile:


Hm.


Considering entering this. Is it alright to make something that uses other homebrew?

It is, but see above :smallsmile:

JoshuaZ
2012-04-05, 04:09 PM
You misunderstood me, that's exactly what I meant. I mean that if you make a class that let's say requires shaper level 5, then a lot of base classes wouldn't qualify, so it would be docked.


Is this a good idea? A very narrow or hard to qualify PrC can be flavorful or interesting in a way that is deeply connected to the fact that it is difficult to qualify.

Empedocles
2012-04-05, 04:10 PM
Is this a good idea? A very narrow or hard to qualify PrC can be flavorful or interesting in a way that is deeply connected to the fact that it is difficult to qualify.

It's really up to the individual judge.

Madara
2012-04-05, 04:16 PM
Is this a good idea? A very narrow or hard to qualify PrC can be flavorful or interesting in a way that is deeply connected to the fact that it is difficult to qualify.

But that also means that its locked into a single build. A PrC that's requirements include(to use an extreme example):

5 levels in Fighter
Lightning Reflexes
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Sunder
and
Negotiator

has already decided the build for you. That's what the docking in accessibility is for. A PrC should still be flavorful, and can have meaningful requirements, but it shouldn't restrict people to a certain build. I'm not saying that your class would, I'm just saying that's what the Accessibility score is for, allowing multiple creative builds.

If a player has to decide at level 1 what their progression will be in order to get into the PrC, that's rather restrictive. Its a problem many published PrCs present: If you didn't take this feat the other level, you can't enter the class for three more levels.

DonQuixote
2012-04-05, 08:39 PM
Spellshaping: A Summary
Wherein I shall summarize the basics of the system for the benefit of the judges.

The spellshaping subsystem is actually very simple. If you're familiar with the Tome of Battle martial adepts, you already understand most of what's on the table. If this summary proves to be insufficient, a more in-depth detailing of the rules of spellshaping can be found here. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=848.0)

A spellshaping character has a "shaper level" equal to her levels in her spellshaping class, plus 1/2 her levels in all other classes. A character without any levels in a spellshaping class still has a shaper level equal to 1/2 her character level, much like a martial adept.

Spellshaping powers are divided into three primary categories: spellshape attacks, major formulae, and minor formulae.


Spellshape Attacks
This is the simplest of the spellshaping powers--it is, in effect, the spellshaper's weapon. A spellshape attack is nothing more than a damaging attack that the spellshaper can use at will. Almost all spellshape attacks are ranged attacks, and most of them are ranged touch attacks that are subject to spell resistance. A small number of spellshape attacks are ranged attacks, not ranged touch attacks, and are not subject to spell resistance.

All spellshape attacks are spell-like abilities that can be used as attack actions. A spellshape attack's range varies depending on the specific attack, but most have a range of 60 feet. Only a few have non-standard ranges, and those are all shorter-range, rather than longer-range.

A spellshape attack deals one die of damage (1d4, 1d6, or 1d8) at 1st level, plus an additional die of damage for every four shaper levels the character attains beyond 1st (two dice at 5th level, three dice at 9th level, four dice at 13th level, and five dice at 17th level). Two feats exist that can increase this damage: Spellshape Focus, which requires shaper level 3rd, adds an additional die of damage. Greater Spellshape Focus, which requires Spellshape Focus and shaper level 12th, adds a second additional die of damage.


Major Formulae
Major formulae are the spellshaping equivalent to martial strikes. Most major formulae require the spellshaper to make an attack with a spellshape attack, and they usually add extra damage or new effects to the attack. All major formulae have somatic components, and they require concentration in the same way that casting a spell does. No major formula has a duration greater than 8 rounds.


Minor Formulae
Just as major formulae work similarly to martial strikes, minor formulae are the spellshaper's version of boosts and counters. Most are swift actions that confer some benefit upon you or your allies, such as granting a flight speed or adding damage to your attacks. Most minor formulae last for only a few rounds.


Using Formulae
Like martial maneuvers, formulae must be prepared before they can be used, and shaping a formula expends it until the end of the encounter (or until you take a special recovery action). The number of formulae that a spellshaper can prepare depends on her class levels, just as the number of maneuvers that a martial adept can ready does. Every spellshaping class has a different method by which it can recover formulae in combat.

The number of arcane formulae that a spellshaper knows is also determined by her class levels. A spellshaper's shaper level determines the highest-level formulae that she can learn. A spellshaper can learn 1st-level formulae at shaper level 1st and higher, 2nd-level formulae at shaper level 3rd and higher, 3rd-level formulae at shaper level 5th and higher, 4th-level formulae at shaper level 7th and higher, 5th-level formulae at shaper level 9th and higher, 6th-level formulae at shaper level 11th and higher, 7th-level formulae at shaper level 13th and higher, 8th-level formulae at shaper level 15th and higher, and 9th-level formulae at shaper level 17th and higher.

In addition, all formulae of 2nd level and higher have prerequisites that must be met. Learning a 2nd- or 3rd-level formula requires that the spellshaper know at least one other formula from the same circle. Learning a 4th- or 5th-level formula requires that the spellshaper know at least two other formulae from the same circle. Learning a 6th- or 7th-level formula requires that the spellshaper know at least three other formulae from the same circle. Learning an 8th-level formula requires that the spellshaper know at least four other formulae from the same circle. Finally, learning a 9th-level formula requires that the spellshaper know at least five other formulae from the same circle.

In order to learn or shape an arcane formula, a spellshaper must have a spellshaping ability score (Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence, depending on her class) equal to or greater than 10 + the formula's level. While ability damage cannot force a spellshaper to forget a formula, it can keep her from shaping it until the damaged ability score is restored.

Ezekiul
2012-04-06, 12:22 PM
I would be willing to help out with the judging.

Empedocles
2012-04-06, 12:29 PM
I would be willing to help out with the judging.

Thanks :smallsmile:

Wyntonian
2012-04-06, 01:37 PM
I can't promise I'll have the time, depending on when this ends, but I'd tenatively put my name in the hat for voting as well.

Xerinous
2012-04-06, 11:17 PM
A quick question, are we limited to a specific system? Say, D&D in general?

I'm interested in participating but I only really have a good grasp on how Pathfinder operates. My understanding of the differences between it and even 3.5 is shaky at best, and those differences could easily break an entry.

Empedocles
2012-04-06, 11:20 PM
A quick question, are we limited to a specific system? Say, D&D in general?

I'm interested in participating but I only really have a good grasp on how Pathfinder operates. My understanding of the differences between it and even 3.5 is shaky at best, and those differences could easily break an entry.

Sorry, but I am limiting this to 3.5 D&D. However, I'd say to still go for it. Just tone down the power of the PrC (PF has stronger characters on average than 3.5) and adjust things like skills.

Xerinous
2012-04-06, 11:23 PM
Sorry, but I am limiting this to 3.5 D&D. However, I'd say to still go for it. Just tone down the power of the PrC (PF has stronger characters on average than 3.5) and adjust things like skills.

Alright. I'll read up on the skills and such and give it a shot.

JoshuaZ
2012-04-07, 09:50 AM
But that also means that its locked into a single build. A PrC that's requirements include(to use an extreme example):

5 levels in Fighter
Lightning Reflexes
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Sunder
and
Negotiator

has already decided the build for you. That's what the docking in accessibility is for. A PrC should still be flavorful, and can have meaningful requirements, but it shouldn't restrict people to a certain build. I'm not saying that your class would, I'm just saying that's what the Accessibility score is for, allowing multiple creative builds.

If a player has to decide at level 1 what their progression will be in order to get into the PrC, that's rather restrictive. Its a problem many published PrCs present: If you didn't take this feat the other level, you can't enter the class for three more levels.

Oh, I'd agree with something like that. However, the earlier example you gave of Shaper 5 is a lot less restrictive. It may also help to distinguish between difficult requirements and inflexible requirements. For example, the requirements for archmage are pretty flexible but still difficult.

(This doesn't actually matter for the entry I'm writing bu I could see it mattering for other entries.)

Empedocles
2012-04-08, 12:48 AM
There're 8 entries and 12 days left. Would you guys support the opening of a art selection forum for the next contest? Or do you think that it's not worth pursuing?

Grinner
2012-04-08, 01:10 AM
There're 8 entries and 12 days left. Would you guys support the opening of a art selection forum for the next contest? Or do you think that it's not worth pursuing?

12 days? I thought we had till the 30th?

Empedocles
2012-04-08, 01:18 AM
12 days? I thought we had till the 30th?

Whoops. Typo. 22 days my bad!

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-08, 11:59 PM
"They say that the sun sets even on the mount of Celestia.

It is known that even in the Beastlands, nature is red in both tooth and claw.

In the Court of Stars, the great Eldarins sometimes gather and weep in exquisite sorrow, grieving for the friends and loved ones they have lost.

Death once said, 'Even in Arcadia, there am I.'

And where Death goes, so too do we."


Brianna Asheholm, Duchess of the Last Light

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-09, 02:52 AM
Alright, posted a quick preview of my class. Feel free to take guesses as to what the abilities will do ^_^

Empedocles
2012-04-09, 04:52 AM
Alright, posted a quick preview of my class. Feel free to take guesses as to what the abilities will do ^_^

Glad to have you aboard :smallsmile:

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-09, 09:04 AM
It may take me a bit to finish, as I'm going on vacation for eight days starting today, but for all future reference the class is going to be designed as a twisted reflection of the Knights of the Fractured Prism (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233385).

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-11, 11:56 PM
I'm slowly adding on more material to the Duke of the Last Light (by the by, all the text reads 'Duke' for ease of reading; I don't want to confuse matters with 'Duchess'). My apologies if things seem wonky or awkwardly-worded during this process; I've got some friends helping me hammer out the wording on abilities, but this is only the second-ever ToB homebrew I've ever made, and is also not-coincidentally the second-ever PrC I've made with less than ten levels.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-18, 10:22 AM
I'm noticing an astonishing lack of discussion in this discussion thread. Is anyone else still here?

Xerinous
2012-04-18, 12:39 PM
I'm still here, I just don't post much.

My submission is still in the works, though I've had to slow down a bit due to finals coming up.

Empedocles
2012-04-18, 03:39 PM
Yeah I'm still here, with possible plans for a 2nd contest. :smallwink:

Madara
2012-04-18, 03:44 PM
still here, but there are like 13 more days :smallcool:

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-18, 04:41 PM
Well, in the other PrC contest it's traditional to trade PEACHes while the work is still happening, and I was kinda sadface that it wasn't happening here.

Vilpich, if you're interested I've got some setting-specific race variants up on the forums.

Empedocles
2012-04-18, 04:49 PM
Well, in the other PrC contest it's traditional to trade PEACHes while the work is still happening, and I was kinda sadface that it wasn't happening here.

Vilpich, if you're interested I've got some setting-specific race variants up on the forums.

Yeah...I think I'm going to try harder to keep discussion and PEACHs up for the 2nd contest. It'll certainly make it more enjoyable for all :smallwink:

I'd love to take a look at your races. Probably won't happen until later tonight though :smallfrown:

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-18, 05:19 PM
Well, now I've got to type up seven brand-new maneuvers and a crap-ton of fluff. If anyone cares to look at what I've got so far, I'd be happy to return the favor.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-20, 05:09 PM
THE MECHANICS ARE DONE! Finally! Now to just write up a ton of fluff!

Still offering to exchange PEACHes with anyone interested.

Jeriah
2012-04-21, 10:36 PM
I'm rather late in finding this contest, but I think that I would like to participate. I've got an interesting idea...

Edit: Well, browsing through the submissions thread, Ziegander seems to have already claimed my first thought for a PrC... But that's okay, because I've already come up with an even better idea.

Empedocles
2012-04-21, 10:44 PM
I'm rather late in finding this contest, but I think that I would like to participate. I've got an interesting idea...

Edit: Well, browsing through the submissions thread, Ziegander seems to have already claimed my first thought for a PrC... But that's okay, because I've already come up with an even better idea.

Still several days left. Good luck!

Also, on a different note, I'll now be taking suggestions for the art for the 2nd contest. I'm set on it being a base class though.

Empedocles
2012-04-26, 09:00 PM
4 Days left...

Still taking suggestions for art, unless you guys want to leave it in my own hands (which may or may not be too wise...)

JoshuaZ
2012-04-28, 10:48 AM
I've been very busy and haven't had time to put mine up but will probably do so sometime later today.

Empedocles
2012-04-30, 08:49 PM
About 2 hours remain until the contest is close, depending on giantitp server issues and my own ability to stay awake.

JoshuaZ
2012-04-30, 09:42 PM
Ok. Just finished my entry.

Empedocles
2012-04-30, 10:37 PM
Because I like sleep...the contest will close about 20 minutes early. You can PM me if you were going to finish before 12 and I closed it. Or just shout at me :smallwink:

Grinner
2012-04-30, 10:48 PM
Aww, damn.

Oh well, I wasn't like I was going to finish in time. :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth
2012-05-09, 08:30 PM
So, results up tomorrow? Tonight? I WANNA KNOW!