Some issues as DM

[Orsayan]

Coming from a swedish fantasy roleplaying game where a single stab with a dagger can be lethal (although not so likely), ad&d poses a problem as to when PCs should be afraid of injury (and/or death).

The bad guy cant just aim a crossbow at the PCs and threaten them at gunpoint to do what he wants, because to a level8+ fighter 1 crossbow bolt is hardly a problem. I feel like I will need to introduce an overwhelming force that can subdue the PCs. Like a two dozen, heavy armed, dwarven militia men might scare the PCs. Might.

Another thing is about knocking someone out cold (through poison, magic or blunt force trauma) is increasingly difficult the higher level the PCs attain. Some classes/races become immune or have great resistance to poison or say sleep-magic, and to do enough subdual damage to knock a player with 60hp out, isnt really viable in the (reasonably) realistic "one-hit-from-behind-knock-out".

So how to deal with following situations in a plausible way:

1.) NPCs threaten PCs with violence to do what they (the NPCs) want.

2.) Knock one or more PCs out, say for atleast an hour.

[Ranting Fool]

1: I've found the Arrows Of Slay X to be a nice way to make badies seem to have the whole "loaded gun" thing.

2: Slumber spell or Power Word Sleep / a nasty poison maybe?

Setting up a real sense of danger for players can be hard, I once had a nice encounter with a 100ft drop where one of my players cheerfully said "Thats only 10D6, my Barbarian will live through that easy" :smallconfused:

[Raimun]

D&D isn't really that realistic system but threats of violence are still effective... just not all of them, like the crossbow example. Remember, all threats of violence ever work only if backed with overwhelming force and that's subjective. In a realistic setting a crossbow bolt counts. In mid to high level-D&D, threatening a PC with a simple crossbow is like threatening someone in real life with a dinner fork.

You need to use level appropriate threats. Here's a couple of ideas:
- Threaten with higher level opponents
- Foreshadow their power if possible
- Threaten them with an instant kill spell (casted w/readied action: a PC moves)
- Make it clear the crossbow is held by Rogue or an Assassin (Sneak/Death Attack)
- Or like you said, use more crossbows

[Orsayan]

1: I've found the Arrows Of Slay X to be a nice way to make badies seem to have the whole "loaded gun" thing.

2: Slumber spell or Power Word Sleep / a nasty poison maybe?


Well, every scumbag out to threathen the PCs cant be walking around with arrow of slaying can they? Although a bluff check "Watch it, this is an arrow of slaying and one hit will kill you" might work.

Poison doesnt work, atleast not reliably because if your to poison 4 players they all have to fail their DC and I think setting an impossible DC would be cheesing it. Then I might aswell just cheat and thats not gonna happen. Also monks (and perhaps other classes) are immune to poison after a certain level. As for sleep magic: Elves, elves everywhere!


Setting up a real sense of danger for players can be hard, I once had a nice encounter with a 100ft drop where one of my players cheerfully said "Thats only 10D6, my Barbarian will live through that easy" :smallconfused:

I have this rule that we cant metagame-comment on things like this, but surely the PC thinks about the possibility of getting seriously injured and in your barbarians case, 10d6 isnt lifethreathing. He shouldnt say that aloud though, as it breaks the suspense (in my opinion).

Another thing is this game doesnt give you any negative effects if your injured, like minus on attack, ac and skill checks. A good thing about that is that injured PCs/NPCs doesnt spiral downwards and becomeing weaker and weaker and this easier to hit. A problem is that if a player takes 2d6, he just shrugs it off.

[Raimun]

Oh yeah, forgot this one.

Take hostages. The best way to threaten super powerful people is to threaten people they might care about ie. loved ones, friends, relatives, people with important knowledge or who are needed to complete a quest.

[limejuicepowder]

This would be homebrewing, but think about implementing a situational coup de grace rule: basically, if the plot or situation needs the attack to be deadly, make it an automatic coup de grace. It won't kill all of the time, but it certainly will be MORE lethal. Make sure this rule works for the PCs as well, not just against them - they should be able to use it if they need it.

Ex: A PC is feverishly trying to disable some device and the villain sneaks up behind them and holds a crossbow/knife/deadly weapon to their head and demands that the PC cease action.

Don't allow people to use this on an ordinary ambush, for obvious reasons. The target should be more "helpless" then that. A rule like this wouldn't make or break anything, but it would help thematically.

[godryk]

I have this rule that we cant metagame-comment on things like this, but surely the PC thinks about the possibility of getting seriously injured and in your barbarians case, 10d6 isnt lifethreathing. He shouldnt say that aloud though, as it breaks the suspense (in my opinion)

I'm not that experienced as a DM, but I think that you should be free to bend the rules a little bit. Should I had some PC saying he/she can take 10D6 in such a blunt way, I would outrule the thing to kick his/her ass in case of fall: either direct death, some difficult fortitude save, unconciousness, whatever. I personally feel that players should show a minimal degree of respect/interest to the story and the flavor of the whole thing, this is a RPG after all.

A whole different story would be if the PC asked me to check if there are any wires, if there is anything on street level to aim to in order to improve his chances of surviving the landing, etc., in other words, if he was using in-game thinking. I tend to award my players for good in-game thinking with some improvised roll checks, e.g.: ok, roll a x DC Reflex Roll to see if you can grab some of the wires to reduce tha damage, avoid fainting, etc.

Now, addressing the OP's concerns, there are several threats.
- More powerful characters. This is the obvious one. As the DMG reminds us, 12th level characters are clearly above average but not that special. Big power structures are used to handling people like you all the time. Some big city watch could very well-include some high-level combatants and the mayor's adviser or the cleric in charge of the local Pellor temple are likely to be highly skilled spellcasters.
- Magic. There are lots of funny things in the list.
- Properly-designed situations/rooms.
- As other have said, hostages, but I would add social/legal threats. For example, legal characters can be forced to follow the orders of some authority. But you can also threaten them with being declared banned/fugitives/outlaw by a city, empire, guild, or any other bigger enitity.

[Dralnu]

D&D still works fine if you want to threaten the PCs with a potentially lethal crossbow bolt. The PCs should be level 1 and the guy wielding the crossbow should have a couple NPC levels and his feat choices should help him be deadly with his weapon, even weapon focus / specialization can work. Maybe even a rogue to reflect him being especially good at aiming at vulnerable spots (sneak attack damage). If the bad guy catches them by surprise (flat-footed) he could drop a PC in a single shot. So easy and simple that even the PHB developers would give you this type of response.

At level 8 though, the PCs are flying around slinging fireballs. You can still threaten them with a crossbow bolt, but you're going to have to up the ante appropriately. That's not at all the fault of the system, that's how it's supposed to work really.

[nedz]

At level 8 though, the PCs are flying around slinging fireballs. You can still threaten them with a crossbow bolt, but you're going to have to up the ante appropriately. That's not at all the fault of the system, that's how it's supposed to work really.

Something like Evard's Black Tenticles perhaps ?

[Voyager_I]

I'm not that experienced as a DM, but I think that you should be free to bend the rules a little bit. Should I had some PC saying he/she can take 10D6 in such a blunt way, I would outrule the thing to kick his/her ass in case of fall: either direct death, some difficult fortitude save, unconciousness, whatever. I personally feel that players should show a minimal degree of respect/interest to the story and the flavor of the whole thing, this is a RPG after all.

That's needlessly vindictive, and you aren't really appreciating the level of power you're dealing with. Mid-level characters are leaps and bounds greater than any real humans that have ever existed and could kill most literary characters without breaking a sweat. These are people who can kill entire companies of ordinary soldiers by themselves. Why should something mundane like a hundred-foot drop be big deal to them?

You're also going to be punishing mundanes, who are the characters that least need to be reigned in. It's okay for an Arcane caster to be able to completely trivialize this sort of problem with a 1st level spell and an immediate action, but if a mundane character who could punt Conan across the room knows they could survive the same drop the hard way then they're abusing the system?


A whole different story would be if the PC asked me to check if there are any wires, if there is anything on street level to aim to in order to improve his chances of surviving the landing, etc., in other words, if he was using in-game thinking. I tend to award my players for good in-game thinking with some improvised roll checks, e.g.: ok, roll a x DC Reflex Roll to see if you can grab some of the wires to reduce tha damage, avoid fainting, etc.

This is in-game thinking. The Barbarian can easily handle a fall from that height. There's no reason for the character not to be aware of his own abilities.

Again, we're not dealing with normal people here. Mid level is orders of magnitude past that. A hundred-foot drop is 35 damage on average. An ordinary person need miraculously low damage rolls to survive that, but we're talking about someone who can get eaten by a Tyrannosaurus and carve their way out from the inside on their next turn.


Now, addressing the OP's concerns, there are several threats.
- More powerful characters. This is the obvious one. As the DMG reminds us, 12th level characters are clearly above average but not that special. Big power structures are used to handling people like you all the time. Some big city watch could very well-include some high-level combatants and the mayor's adviser or the cleric in charge of the local Pellor temple are likely to be highly skilled spellcasters.

Actually, depending on the setting, 12th Level Characters could be among the most powerful in the country. Compared to any real person who has ever existed, they are that special. This isn't to say that even higher-level characters shouldn't exist (see: Faerun and its epic bartenders), but you need to understand that the only thing capable of challenging heroes capable of legendary feats should be similarly legendary villains and monsters. You shouldn't expect common muggers to be a problem for 12th-level characters any more than they would be for Achilles.


If that's not the kind of environment you're looking for, play the game at lower levels.

[godryk]

That's needlessly vindictive, and you aren't really appreciating the level of power you're dealing with. Mid-level characters are leaps and bounds greater than any real humans that have ever existed and could kill most literary characters without breaking a sweat. These are people who can kill entire companies of ordinary soldiers by themselves. Why should something mundane like a hundred-foot drop be big deal to them?

I have to agree to some degree. I might have made myself sound a little too radical. I wasn't really thinking about a certain level (I probably was thinking more of lower levels). However, I don't necessarily see it as an act of punishment or vengeannce. The DM is "entitled" to tweak the rules a little and you will know very quickly if that improvisation is enjoyed or frowned upon. My main goal is that everyone has a good time and I adapt my style as much as possible thanks to my player's feedback.

You are right about what you said about in-game thinking. If you are aware of your character's capabilities and play with them, yep, that's in-game thinking. What I was trying to say is that I don't like it when a player ignores the story and the situation and just asks for a number, checks his life total and puts his earplugs in (it didn't happen to me but to a friend). Does a player deserve punishment for doing something I don't like? Absolutely not, if that's what everyone is looking for, don't stop the fun. In my particular case, I simply found out that my players enjoy it when I "enforce" the story a little bit. They get more involved into the story and passive players start interacting with the world, making the game more rich and less predictable.

Anyway, I didn't intend to express my opinions as strict guidelines for every powerlevel, group and setting. If I did excuse me, it was only due to my poor commandment of the English language. I was just trying to share some of my views- However, I tend to sound a little like a very dominant DM which it's not quite the reality.

[demigodus]

You are right about what you said about in-game thinking. If you are aware of your character's capabilities and play with them, yep, that's in-game thinking. What I was trying to say is that I don't like it when a player ignores the story and the situation and just asks for a number, checks his life total and puts his earplugs in (it didn't happen to me but to a friend). Does a player deserve punishment for doing something I don't like? Absolutely not, if that's what everyone is looking for, don't stop the fun. In my particular case, I simply found out that my players enjoy it when I "enforce" the story a little bit. They get more involved into the story and passive players start interacting with the world, making the game more rich and less predictable.

A character bordering on demigod status simply because of how ripped he is checking how far a fall is, and then possibly just jumping down and shrugging off the damage can very much be in game thinking. How else would you replicate a character checking how far a fall is beyond the player asking the DM for a number?

Although, personally I have never had a game where getting down a 100ft drop was the "story", and not a "minor inconvenience" to work our way around. Just because a person's solution to a massive drop is to measure the distance and then let out a scream as they jump down, doesn't mean they aren't immersed in the story, or playing a character.

Basically, I think you are over playing how immersion-breaking such an action would be.

[Voyager_I]

I have to agree to some degree. I might have made myself sound a little too radical. I wasn't really thinking about a certain level (I probably was thinking more of lower levels). However, I don't necessarily see it as an act of punishment or vengeannce. The DM is "entitled" to tweak the rules a little and you will know very quickly if that improvisation is enjoyed or frowned upon. My main goal is that everyone has a good time and I adapt my style as much as possible thanks to my player's feedback.

While the rules are ultimately at the discretion of the DM, you need to be very careful about your use of house rules. As a general rule, if you make up or change something on the spot to prevent the players from doing something perfectly within their abilities that messes up your plans, you're going to cause problems around the table.

Generally speaking, it's the DM's fault for not anticipating the capabilities of their players, not the players fault for using the abilities of their characters. In particular, the cliff thing can be solved by anyone with 1st level arcane spells.


You are right about what you said about in-game thinking. If you are aware of your character's capabilities and play with them, yep, that's in-game thinking. What I was trying to say is that I don't like it when a player ignores the story and the situation and just asks for a number, checks his life total and puts his earplugs in (it didn't happen to me but to a friend). Does a player deserve punishment for doing something I don't like? Absolutely not, if that's what everyone is looking for, don't stop the fun. In my particular case, I simply found out that my players enjoy it when I "enforce" the story a little bit. They get more involved into the story and passive players start interacting with the world, making the game more rich and less predictable.

Again, you need to be careful about railroading. Some groups are going to be much less tolerant than others, and rails that are violently enforced (such as the "I meant for the 100 foot cliff to be an impassable obstacle so roll a fort save to stay conscious" example) will get things thrown at you.

[bloodtide]

So how to deal with following situations in a plausible way:

1.) NPCs threaten PCs with violence to do what they (the NPCs) want.

2.) Knock one or more PCs out, say for at least an hour.

The NPC's, monsters and threats should be near equal to the PCs to make everything a challenge. So if your having a 2nd level warrior NPC threaten a 14th level fighter with a rusty spoon....your doing it wrong.

Easy Steps:
1.Give all NPC's some levels. Give them a couple of classes too. A Thug should be something like a fighter 6/rouge 4/Outlaw 2

2.Give the NPC's equipment. The easy way is to give them magic stuff, but you can stick to mundane stuff if you wish. It's quite easy to give a NPC temporary magic too.

For example, any low level spellcaster can use a wand, so giving them a wand of lightning bolt with five charges works out great. Scrolls also work.

You also might want to drop the idea that PC's have god-like things and NPCs have dirt. Give the NPCs some useful, powerful items. Make such magic common. Necklaces of fireballs, for example.

And don't forget the big time intimidation. Sage Doom does not just pull out a crossbow and threaten a PC, he has 16 thugs do it for the pincushion effect. Even if only half of them hit and even if each only does 3 points of damage, that is still 24 points of damage...

For knocking them out, you could go the route of poison and non- lethal damage. But again the easy way is magic. There are plenty of low level knock out spells that will still work on high level folks. Hold person still works, as does deep slumber. And don't forget about illusions.

[Yahzi]

1.) NPCs threaten PCs with violence to do what they (the NPCs) want.
Do you watch Dr. Who?

He's the Doctor. He's immortal (almost literally). He knows 1,000 times as much as anybody else and his intellect is Supra-Uber-Genius.

When the script writers want a monster to threaten him, it's one of two ways:

1) They aim at his assistant (a mere mortal human being). I.e. hostages.

2) They aim to destroy the entire universe. Again, hostages.

Hardly anyone ever threatens the doctor directly. When they do, he just laughs at them, because their threat is not credible.

So: same for your players. Threaten their underlings, innocents, or the entire fabric of the multiverse. if you just want to play nitty-gritty "struggle to survive," you probably shouldn't be playing D&D.

[dsmiles]

Alternatively, skip DnD and play Dungeon World. It has a more lethal, old school, feel.

[Dairuga]

(see: Faerun and its epic bartenders),

Sorry for butting in like this, but can you elaborate on that?

[Gwendol]

Coming from a swedish fantasy roleplaying game where a single stab with a dagger can be lethal (although not so likely), ad&d poses a problem as to when PCs should be afraid of injury (and/or death).
So how to deal with following situations in a plausible way:

1.) NPCs threaten PCs with violence to do what they (the NPCs) want.

2.) Knock one or more PCs out, say for atleast an hour.

Knowing the game in question, I can see where you are coming from. Read up on Coup de Grace rules, if your NPC's can render your PC(s) helpless the dagger punch can be lethal. They can grapple/pin them, tie them up, etc.

The answer in D&D is always magic. Just use magic. An optimized 8th level caster can do all that and more.

[SilverLeaf167]

Sorry for butting in like this, but can you elaborate on that?
I think the point is that in the Forgotten Realms setting, every other NPC tends to be high or even epic level. Plenty of people complain about this.

Knowing the game in question, I can see where you are coming from. Read up on Coup de Grace rules, if your NPC's can render your PC(s) helpless the dagger punch can be lethal. They can grapple/pin them, tie them up, etc.
Nitpick: Pinning actually doesn't make you helpless. This is unrealistic in some cases (a colossal dragon is sitting on top of you), but usually it's realistic for you to be able to squirm around and try to evade attacks.

On another note, I'm considering allowing coup de graces in particularly dramatic scenes, as suggested.

[Gwendol]

No, but as you also acknowledge, it might lead to it. After being pinned, the character can be rendered helpless, etc.

[Duke of URL]

HP in the D&D universe isn't meant to be a literal thing in that a 5th level character can literally take 5 times the punishment as a 1st level character. It's an abstraction, indicating that the 5th level character might take a cut from the same strike that a 1st level character would be run through by, and the loss of those post-1st level HP represent a general "wearing down" of the character.

But that's meant for combat-type situations. If someone has you essentially helpless, they can cut your throat or put a crossbow bolt through your heart. And it will be fatal (unless you have some form of fast healing/regeneration).

If you're having a hard time wrapping your brain -- or your players' brains -- around that concept, I'd suggest using the Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) variant from Unearthed Arcana. In that case, the threatening situation would be made clear to directly affect their wound points, bypassing any vitality points.

[Dairuga]

I think the point is that in the Forgotten Realms setting, every other NPC tends to be high or even epic level. Plenty of people complain about this.



Darned it. The point was that -I- have an Epic-level Bartender, which is a special character to me. Half-dragon / dragonic psion of sort that meddles with people's memories and remains mostly aware of his surroundings trough his numerous customers. http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss193/Dairuga/tom2.jpg?t=1316712610

It would be awesome if there were -other- epic Bartenders around, to compare.



So how to deal with following situations in a plausible way:

1.) NPCs threaten PCs with violence to do what they (the NPCs) want.

2.) Knock one or more PCs out, say for atleast an hour.


As for how to fix the problems of the party not respecting dangers, and how to subdue them, the right applications of spells could do the trick nicely. The only problem is if you have any problems in using spells / magic, or if you would strictly want to keep it mundane.

For the first point, on how to threaten PC's, you could throw in characters that knows Dominate Person. Now, your characters might get access to mind blank (There are psionic abilities out there that some people might get their hands on that shatters Mind blank), but if a rumored, big bad guy is finally waking up and finds the heroes walking on his territory, he might just have access to powers that prevent that exact thing.

If enemies know Dominate person (or if, say; an NPC psion appears that knows death urge (Death urge making the target kill himself as fast as possible, usually by full-attacking itself)), things quickly become very frightening. What better way to turn a party fearsome than to make them have a go at eachother? That big, burly berserker failed his will save, and is now raging into the wizard's face. Or the rogue's. Another example would be Hold Person, another simple Level 3 spell; I believe. Hold person leaves a PC helpless, and suspectible to a coup.

As for Point 2, the subdual damage problem can be circumvented with simple application of the spell "Overwhelm". Overwhelm is a sixth level spell, granted, but it instantly deals subdual damage on a touch attack, equal to the target's current HP, effectively knocking them out. If you load such a spell into a dagger, or have a dagger be able to use that spell 1/day upon strike, you could instantly create a fearful display when one stab was enough to render someone knocked out and prone to dying, if unattended. The 1/day and other such things does not need to be explained, and for all the players know; can happen upon every stab. Perhaps such a weapon could be mass-manufactured in a town where assassins thrive? It could become a popular, yet expensive weapon that would make many assassin attempts rather easy, as gaining immunity to subdual damage is far, far harder than trough poisons. Granted, there is still the problem of SR and the fact that it's a will-save, but it should be enough to take out those meaty tanks.

After all, once the meatshield dies in one hit (or perhaps is made to look dead), the casters either tend to go into gung-ho explosion time, or try to talk themselves out of danger, and save their spells.

Also, an alternative option. Introduce rogues; Shadow rogues in particular, as well as shadow dancers and other classes that compliment the unseen aspect of asassination. And more importantly, let these characters get away. Imagine that the party is just wandering along... And before they know it, a shadow rogue appears behind the party wizard, catch him unsuspected (Which might trigger a surprise round for said Rogue, allowing more attacks), performs a full attack, (most likely severely wounding / nearly killing him in one go) and dimension doors away; perhaps after bowing quickly, tipping his hat; grinning widely and leave them with a "I'll be back~", or a similar threat of killing them off one by one, before vanishing into shadows or other fluffy exits.

The players might find themselves always watching shadows for anything suspicious. And if the NPC's can threaten to include said shadow rogues (Say, aptly dubbed "The shades", a group of assassins that work together), if the party does not comply. Bonus points if these assassins are mythical, revered or feared thorought the city. Living their life as rumors on the wind, never seen.

[Orsayan]

The NPC's, monsters and threats should be near equal to the PCs to make everything a challenge. So if your having a 2nd level warrior NPC threaten a 14th level fighter with a rusty spoon....your doing it wrong.

Easy Steps:
1.Give all NPC's some levels. Give them a couple of classes too. A Thug should be something like a fighter 6/rouge 4/Outlaw 2

2.Give the NPC's equipment. The easy way is to give them magic stuff, but you can stick to mundane stuff if you wish. It's quite easy to give a NPC temporary magic too.

For example, any low level spellcaster can use a wand, so giving them a wand of lightning bolt with five charges works out great. Scrolls also work.

You also might want to drop the idea that PC's have god-like things and NPCs have dirt. Give the NPCs some useful, powerful items. Make such magic common. Necklaces of fireballs, for example.

And don't forget the big time intimidation. Sage Doom does not just pull out a crossbow and threaten a PC, he has 16 thugs do it for the pincushion effect. Even if only half of them hit and even if each only does 3 points of damage, that is still 24 points of damage...

For knocking them out, you could go the route of poison and non- lethal damage. But again the easy way is magic. There are plenty of low level knock out spells that will still work on high level folks. Hold person still works, as does deep slumber. And don't forget about illusions.

All my NPCs have classlevels to be on par with the PCs. Like if I want some ogres to attack a lvl 10 party, I will give the ogres some barbarian levels. They usually also have magic items, our tressure rules are very homebrew'ed though, and as unrealistic it is, most magic items the NPCs have cannot be found on their soon-to-be-corpses (unless its blatant obvious; the blackguards sword that shimmer shadowly gotta be on the corpse).

Reason for this is suspense, no threat in my campaigns should ever feel easy, rule-speak I would say all encounters land int the "Challenging" category.


Do you watch Dr. Who?

He's the Doctor. He's immortal (almost literally). He knows 1,000 times as much as anybody else and his intellect is Supra-Uber-Genius.

When the script writers want a monster to threaten him, it's one of two ways:

1) They aim at his assistant (a mere mortal human being). I.e. hostages.

2) They aim to destroy the entire universe. Again, hostages.

Hardly anyone ever threatens the doctor directly. When they do, he just laughs at them, because their threat is not credible.

So: same for your players. Threaten their underlings, innocents, or the entire fabric of the multiverse. if you just want to play nitty-gritty "struggle to survive," you probably shouldn't be playing D&D.

Never did see any Doctor Who but I think I know what to do in this perticular situation Im in right now in planning the adventure. The lords inexcperienced (and cowardly) son has to prove his manliness by acting as a guide to the PCs.

Oh and look at that, the bad guys now have him hostage. :D



As for how to fix the problems of the party not respecting dangers, and how to subdue them, the right applications of spells could do the trick nicely. The only problem is if you have any problems in using spells / magic, or if you would strictly want to keep it mundane.

For the first point, on how to threaten PC's, you could throw in characters that knows Dominate Person. Now, your characters might get access to mind blank (There are psionic abilities out there that some people might get their hands on that shatters Mind blank), but if a rumored, big bad guy is finally waking up and finds the heroes walking on his territory, he might just have access to powers that prevent that exact thing.

If enemies know Dominate person (or if, say; an NPC psion appears that knows death urge (Death urge making the target kill himself as fast as possible, usually by full-attacking itself)), things quickly become very frightening. What better way to turn a party fearsome than to make them have a go at eachother? That big, burly berserker failed his will save, and is now raging into the wizard's face. Or the rogue's. Another example would be Hold Person, another simple Level 3 spell; I believe. Hold person leaves a PC helpless, and suspectible to a coup.

As for Point 2, the subdual damage problem can be circumvented with simple application of the spell "Overwhelm". Overwhelm is a sixth level spell, granted, but it instantly deals subdual damage on a touch attack, equal to the target's current HP, effectively knocking them out. If you load such a spell into a dagger, or have a dagger be able to use that spell 1/day upon strike, you could instantly create a fearful display when one stab was enough to render someone knocked out and prone to dying, if unattended. The 1/day and other such things does not need to be explained, and for all the players know; can happen upon every stab. Perhaps such a weapon could be mass-manufactured in a town where assassins thrive? It could become a popular, yet expensive weapon that would make many assassin attempts rather easy, as gaining immunity to subdual damage is far, far harder than trough poisons. Granted, there is still the problem of SR and the fact that it's a will-save, but it should be enough to take out those meaty tanks.

After all, once the meatshield dies in one hit (or perhaps is made to look dead), the casters either tend to go into gung-ho explosion time, or try to talk themselves out of danger, and save their spells.

Also, an alternative option. Introduce rogues; Shadow rogues in particular, as well as shadow dancers and other classes that compliment the unseen aspect of asassination. And more importantly, let these characters get away. Imagine that the party is just wandering along... And before they know it, a shadow rogue appears behind the party wizard, catch him unsuspected (Which might trigger a surprise round for said Rogue, allowing more attacks), performs a full attack, (most likely severely wounding / nearly killing him in one go) and dimension doors away; perhaps after bowing quickly, tipping his hat; grinning widely and leave them with a "I'll be back~", or a similar threat of killing them off one by one, before vanishing into shadows or other fluffy exits.

The players might find themselves always watching shadows for anything suspicious. And if the NPC's can threaten to include said shadow rogues (Say, aptly dubbed "The shades", a group of assassins that work together), if the party does not comply. Bonus points if these assassins are mythical, revered or feared thorought the city. Living their life as rumors on the wind, never seen.

Dominate Person is f*cking brutal in my opinion, it can really wipe the party if wrong PC fails his save, if I use this spell, I make sure letting the PCs know about the possible danger of "being mindcontrolled" or something. As for the Overwhelm-spell daggers, I like this idea alot and also the shadow rogue oneshotting the wizard, hehe. :smallwink:

Thanks everyone for creative ideas!

[Arbane]

One other possibility: BRIBERY.

Tell the players "I know your characters could easily carve their way out of this situation, YOU know your characters can't be killed by a few measly arrows, but go along with it and you'll get extra XP."

Hey, it _might_ work.

[SowZ]

One other possibility: BRIBERY.

Tell the players "I know your characters could easily carve their way out of this situation, YOU know your characters can't be killed by a few measly arrows, but go along with it and you'll get extra XP."

Hey, it _might_ work.

But then you are actually encouraging metagaming and OOC actions...

I think what it comes down to is what a lot of other people are saying. At higher levels, the players should be treated like legends and great mythical heroes. Pointing a single bow at a level 16 fighter will no more threaten him then it would threaten Hercules. People don't read Greek myths about demigods slaying a few bandits. They read them about the heroes doing fantastical things and slaying great monsters/other great warriors. That is the kind of story mid-high level d&d emulates and to fight against it is going to be very difficult.