[3.5] Preventing Detect Evil at level 1?

[Ballista]

Well my group's going to start a new campaign and I'm deciding on play a Lawful Evil Walker in the Wastes using an early entry cheese. The thing is one of the characters is gonna be a Paladin, and I'm pretty darn sure he's gonna start Detecting Evil as soon as I start kidnapping people.
My DM isn't very keen to giving me any items worth more than a few gp as he's not exactly for Evil PC's so any sort of item like Amulets of Nondetection or Eternal Wands.
I'm starting off as a Generic Spellcaster from UA so I don't get access to Undetectable Alignment until 4th level.

TLDR: I need something to negate Undetectable Alignment that doesn't cost loads of money and isn't a higher spell level than Druid/Cleric/Wizard 1.

EDIT: Sorry that part was supposed to be blue

[Yora]

The detect evil ability is the least of your problems. If the other player knows you are evil and kidnap people, his character will figure that out even if detect evil doesn't work on your character.
You still will have to deal with one of the party members refusing to have you in the same party.

[Kish]

You're playing an evil character in a group with a paladin and a DM who doesn't want an evil character. You're also abusing the system.

...Why?

[Morph Bark]

Answer to title question: not being Evil.

Addendum in compliance with OP: you'll also need a very high Bluff modifier. Precocious Apprentice may help if a 2nd-level spell prevents it, but you'll have to note how long the spell lasts, taking into account your caster level of 1.

[Ballista]

You're playing an evil character in a group with a paladin and a DM who doesn't want an evil character. You're also abusing the system.

...Why?

Wait, what's wrong with evil characters?
Well honestly it's not really a cheese, it just lets me qualify for Walker in the Waste at level 2, it doesn't give me unlimited power or anything.
The DM says that being evil is my own problem and he won't be showing any form of favoritism toward me by giving me random items well over the WBL.

[Ballista]

Answer to title question: not being Evil.

Addendum in compliance with OP: you'll also need a very high Bluff modifier. Precocious Apprentice may help if a 2nd-level spell prevents it, but you'll have to note how long the spell lasts, taking into account your caster level of 1.

I tend to roleplay better as Evil, I already took Precocious Apprentice to get Dessicate to qualify for Walker. But if worst comes to worst, I can just scrap the idea.
Darn I had the background written out already :smallfrown:

[JonRG]

Wait, what's wrong with evil characters?

Nothing inherently wrong with it. However, the paladin's player might become upset when his PC has to decide between falling and breaking up the group.

[ericgrau]

Lead foil lined warforged. I'd guess a cost of a few gp on the foil and then maybe triple that to have a craftsman install it. So... 5-20 gp IMO. Lead is surprisingly expensive or else it would have been silver pieces.

Detect evil on good person: nothing evil there.
Detect evil on lead foil: nothing evil there.
(detect evil doesn't detect good or neutral)

[Kish]

Wait, what's wrong with evil characters?
What's wrong with playing a character who is guaranteed to cause problems with the group and who the DM doesn't want?

Is that a serious question, or are you deliberately ignoring 15/20 of the words in my first sentence?

[Ashtagon]

Ignoring the whole detect evil magic for a moment, you do realise you only remain evil as long as your behaviour is consistently evil, right? If you are behaving consistently evil in front of the other characters, they'll definitely pick up on that sooner or later, regardless of magic. And if you aren't behaving evil, then you aren't evil. That might impact on PrC prerequisites (not sure, haven't checked).

Is there a particular reason the character needs to be evil? Because it looks like a recipe for pvp.

[ericgrau]

Obviously you do evil things in secret, like all the other evil people do.

It is a big mess to hide it and so on though. At the very least I'd have a backup character because you'll probably be found out at some point and have to split from the party.

[demigodus]

@OP: Why on earth would you be performing your evil acts publicly? You don't have to let everyone know you kidnap children for the kidnapping to qualify for you being evil.


What's wrong with playing a character who is guaranteed to cause problems with the group and who the DM doesn't want?

Is that a serious question, or are you deliberately ignoring 15/20 of the words in my first sentence?

The bolded applies to the Paladin as well. The only difference between an evil character and the Paladin here.

And it doesn't sound so much like the DM doesn't want the evil character, as he isn't interested in making life easier for being evil.

So I see no reason why the Paladin should be the one inherently allowed to stay in the party, and not the evil character. Not until we know the opinions of the other players.

[Morph Bark]

Ignoring the whole detect evil magic for a moment, you do realise you only remain evil as long as your behaviour is consistently evil, right? If you are behaving consistently evil in front of the other characters, they'll definitely pick up on that sooner or later, regardless of magic. And if you aren't behaving evil, then you aren't evil. That might impact on PrC prerequisites (not sure, haven't checked).

Is there a particular reason the character needs to be evil? Because it looks like a recipe for pvp.

Evil characters not doing evil things does not automatically make them not-evil fast at all. He'd need to do good things to actually get to do that fast, which is likely with a Paladin around though, unless he'd work against the Paladin, but that would reveal him.

[Ballista]

However, the paladin's player might become upset when his PC has to decide between falling and breaking up the group.

Well if he doesn't know about my actions, would that still cause him to fall? Sorry I've never looked into the code of conduct, I try to stay as far away from paladins nowadays.


What's wrong with playing a character who is guaranteed to cause problems with the group and who the DM doesn't want?

Is that a serious question, or are you deliberately ignoring 15/20 of the words in my first sentence?

The Paladin is the only Good PC in the whole group of 4 (the other players are a LN Scout and a True Neutral Wizard as far as I know) and the DM is fine with evil as long as I work out my own problems without a DM fiat.


Ignoring the whole detect evil magic for a moment, you do realise you only remain evil as long as your behaviour is consistently evil, right? If you are behaving consistently evil in front of the other characters, they'll definitely pick up on that sooner or later, regardless of magic. And if you aren't behaving evil, then you aren't evil. That might impact on PrC prerequisites (not sure, haven't checked).

Is there a particular reason the character needs to be evil? Because it looks like a recipe for pvp.

Alignment-wise being non-good is the only prerequisite, I've always wanted to play an Evil PC, but seeing as previous DM rotations have been almost complete railroads, I was unable to do so. Plus the group needs some encouragement roleplaying, they almost always are neutral something and I want create some tension within the group to roleplay out, which the current DM approves of.


@OP: Why on earth would you be performing your evil acts publicly? You don't have to let everyone know you kidnap children for the kidnapping to qualify for you being evil.

That was just a sarcastic example, I know that doing anything evil in public will probably be a one-way ticket to the guillotine.

[Answerer]

Basically, you cannot be an Evil character or the other player cannot be a Paladin. The two cannot be in the same group, not without houserules that relax the Paladin's (awful, terrible, stupid, poorly-designed) Code.

So you need to talk to your entire group and come up with an out-of-game solution. There is no in-game solution.

[GreenSerpent]

This came up in my old gestalt game (LE Dread Necromancer/Binder joined a party with a Paladin/Cloistered Cleric)

What you do is:

Make sure to max Bluff and Diplomacy.
When it is discovered that you're evil, ask the Paladin if he will escort you away from the path of evil and to the light. He'll most likely agree, as redeeming an evildoer is an incredibly good act.
Use your Bluff and Diplomacy skill to convince the Paladin that you're making progress towards being good, even when you have no intention of being good.

ONCE you get into the prestige class then act good and become Neutral, to keep the Paladin happy.

OR... play a Neutral Walker in the Waste, enter a little later and avoid all the problems.

[Oscredwin]

How evil do you have to be to detect as evil? Don't you have to have an aura (clerics, blackguards, undead), be an outsider from there (pit fiends, balors), or commit many really evil acts? Just having an evil alignment doesn't cut it, you have to be borderline Vile to ping as evil just based on action on the material plane. (Or did I forget how Detect Evil works)

[OracleofSilence]

Well ultimately, it seems that clever role playing is your goal. Don't play Zykon, just play a small reserved and smart evil. For example, consider the the difference between...

Well any successful politician and lets say Voldemort. both are evil (in (usually) hard to detect ways in the cases of politicians), but evil they are. The only difference is that one inspires loyalty and trust, while te other inspires fear. The details are in the role-playing.

[Ballista]

Alright, so I guess bluff and diplomacy are gonna be my best friends eh?

[OracleofSilence]

Indeed. Also be smart. No kidnapping, just smooth campaign rallies.

[JonRG]

Well if he doesn't know about my actions, would that still cause him to fall? Sorry I've never looked into the code of conduct, I try to stay as far away from paladins nowadays.

According to the SRD, "[A] paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

So if the paladin learns your alignment, they must cut ties with you immediately or fall. Maybe your DM doesn't play that way. I hope so, because secrets have a way of coming out.

[Malimar]

All else fails, pump Bluff: "Alas, you have discovered my terrible secret: I'm Good, but I'm under the effects of a curse laid upon my family by a vile arch-demon. This curse is a terribly subtle and insidious one: it fouls up spells and makes me Detect as Evil. That's why I'm adventuring with you guys: I'm questing to to find a way to defeat the arch-demon to lift this curse and free my family from this terrible burden."

Now (if he believes you) you're an "innocent" and you're "in need" and the Paladin will Fall if he so much as doesn't try to help you "lift the curse" (as long as you aren't, so far as he knows, using his help to do Evil or Chaotic things) and "punish those who harm or threaten" you (i.e., "the arch-demon").

[Morph Bark]

How evil do you have to be to detect as evil? Don't you have to have an aura (clerics, blackguards, undead), be an outsider from there (pit fiends, balors), or commit many really evil acts? Just having an evil alignment doesn't cut it, you have to be borderline Vile to ping as evil just based on action on the material plane. (Or did I forget how Detect Evil works)

Well ultimately, it seems that clever role playing is your goal. Don't play Zykon, just play a small reserved and smart evil. For example, consider the the difference between...

Well any successful politician and lets say Voldemort. both are evil (in (usually) hard to detect ways in the cases of politicians), but evil they are. The only difference is that one inspires loyalty and trust, while te other inspires fear. The details are in the role-playing.

Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) details.

ANY evil is detected, even if it may only be faint.

[Mari01]

The Paladin Code leaves no room for redeeming evil creatures. They are supposed to be the ones who put evil to the sword, no ifs ands or buts about it. You cant redeem someone that's evil without associating with them. Unless you're willing to adopt the Pathfinder code of conduct, your friend CANNOT play his paladin.

[INoKnowNames]

For example, consider the the difference between...

Well any successful politician and lets say Voldemort. both are evil (in (usually) hard to detect ways in the cases of politicians), but evil they are. The only difference is that one inspires loyalty and trust, while te other inspires fear. The details are in the role-playing.

Well, I wouldn't exactly trust Voldemort, at least not normally... talk about a rock and a hard place decision... :smalltongue:

[Zale]

I fail to see why a Lawful Evil person can't see the advantage of the murderous wandering hobos to further his plans.

If that requires he put forth the pretense of being good, then why not?

Ends Justify the Means, and all that.

Could be interesting if you had a slippery slope scenario, in which he slowly realizes he is getting used to being good..

[Ernir]

You don't defeat Detect Evil at level 1. You just play, the Evil PC eventually gets discovered, and you (role)play out some glorious clash of personalities whose result is determined by whatever you and the other player can think of saying at that moment.

This isn't an issue that needs to be solved. It's going to become part of the story.

[Morph Bark]

There is, of course, the possibility of you just being the Paladin's prisoner, but one of the PCs helping you escape whenever he's not looking to further the party's general agenda.

Also, does your DM really follow the "lose prereqs, lose PrC abilities" rule? Otherwise you could turn Good later on, after getting at least one level in Walker in the Waste, or when you reach level 10, escape, become a Dry Lich, have an epic showdown against the party, are subdued, allow the Paladin's his rousing speech of Goodness versus your pleas of "why, I did everything right, my plans went so well" and ending up helping you redeem yourself.

[Ravens_cry]

Alright, so I guess bluff and diplomacy are gonna be my best friends eh?
Just FYI, they don't work on PC, at least Diplomacy does not.

[Morithias]

The magic blooded/spark template in Dragon Magazine gives your undetectable alignment as a spell-like ability, and it's LA +0.

[Randomguy]

Carry around a lead sheet.

You don't need to kidnap people just because you're evil. Just try to avoid giving yourself away until you can cast nondetection.

[Ravens_cry]

On the other hand, even if your alignment isn't detectable, if you go around acting all stupid evil (kidnapping, really?) the jig will be up.

[JonRG]

I hear that if you write something in blue text, it's 100% serious. :smalltongue:

The goal here's not really to beat Detect Evil, but to avoid a massive confrontation between the paladin and the Walker in the Wastes. You might have to compromise on your alignment and play an Evil-inclined LN. Or you could talk to the paladin's player and see if he's cool with this sort of development.

[Ballista]

Wow, I'm really surprised that people actually thought I was being serious about kidnapping people... darn the blue text isn't working.
I might have to switch to neutral since I realized that I don't have bluff as a class skill, and I really doubt the player running the paladin would believe me simply because I can BS my way out of the situation with promise of redemption.

On the other hand, Malimar gave me an idea...
I can explain that I am wearing a cursed ring that cannot be removed that emanates an evil aura (sorry, ripped from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html))

[Mari01]

Wow, I'm really surprised that people actually thought I was being serious about kidnapping people... darn the blue text isn't working.
I might have to switch to neutral since I realized that I don't have bluff as a class skill, and I really doubt the player running the paladin would believe me simply because I can BS my way out of the situation with promise of redemption.

On the other hand, Malimar gave me an idea...
I can explain that I am wearing a cursed ring that cannot be removed that emanates an evil aura (sorry, ripped from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html))

The bluff for that kind of lie is astronomically high. he's going to get a HUGE bonus to sense motive. You might want to try another option.

[Ravens_cry]

Blue is a pretty serious colour. Cops, sailors, air force uniforms frequently use blue. It's cool, possibly even sombre.
It's even an idiom for sadness.
It doesn't really fit my synaesthetic sense for "sarcasm".
Hot pink or magenta on the other hand might work but is hard to read on a white background.
If I am being sarcastic and I want people to know, I use a variation on html tags.
<sarcasm>Or is that too subtle?</sarcasm>

[Ballista]

The bluff for that kind of lie is astronomically high. he's going to get a HUGE bonus to sense motive. You might want to try another option.

Why would it be high?

Get Ring
Fuse to finger
Get Detected with Evil Aura
Bluff Bluff Bluff the stupid Paladin
???
Profit


Maybe I'm missing something but IMO it seems pretty legit

[Mari01]

Why would it be high?

Get Ring
Fuse to finger
Get Detected with Evil Aura
Bluff Bluff Bluff the stupid Paladin
???
Profit


Maybe I'm missing something but IMO it seems pretty legit

Remove the ring and all that is moot. Losing a finger to prove your innocence seems paltry when the alternative is being put to the sword. Or why wouldnt every evil person have some kind of contingent like that? It's simple and effective I'll give you that but it begs the question of why dont others do the same thing.

[Ballista]

Remove the ring and all that is moot. Losing a finger to prove your innocence seems paltry when the alternative is being put to the sword. Or why wouldnt every evil person have some kind of contingent like that? It's simple and effective I'll give you that but it begs the question of why dont others do the same thing.

Well considering the fact that most evil people in game don't give two ****'s if they're detected as evil since they aren't in constant proximity with a paladin and aren't relying on an adventuring group. The BBEG's of campaigns honestly don't need to worry about being swarmed Lawful Good crusaders since they are so darn powerful that they could blow them away in normal cases.

[Mari01]

Well considering the fact that most evil people in game don't give two ****'s if they're detected as evil since they aren't in constant proximity with a paladin and aren't relying on an adventuring group. The BBEG's of campaigns honestly don't need to worry about being swarmed Lawful Good crusaders since they are so darn powerful that they could blow them away in normal cases.

But not every evil person is THAT powerful. How does the typical murderer evade the watchful paladin? By not being in his proximity or trying to lie about it every other day.

[Taffimai]

Detect evil is a cone. Just stay out of the paladin's line of sight, game mechanics problem solved. If your character's overt actions don't give the paladin reason to specifically target him/her, there's no reason he'd ever find out you're evil. You are an ally, after all, travelling by his side to fight the same forces of evil he wants to destroy. Your reasons are your own.

Seriously, a situation like this only becomes an issue if one of the parties involved (you, the paladin player, or the DM) want to make it one.

[Answerer]

Remove the ring and all that is moot. Losing a finger to prove your innocence seems paltry when the alternative is being put to the sword. Or why wouldnt every evil person have some kind of contingent like that? It's simple and effective I'll give you that but it begs the question of why dont others do the same thing.
....any Paladin who thinks it's appropriate to kill someone who will not agree to have their finger chopped off is a murderer, and should fall. I don't care what his alignment pinged as, not when Detect Magic is fallible.

[Ballista]

But not every evil person is THAT powerful. How does the typical murderer evade the watchful paladin? By not being in his proximity or trying to lie about it every other day.

I'm not too sure what goes on inside the twisted little Lawful Stupid mind of a paladin, but if I were to play one, I wouldn't go around chopping of heads that were registered as evil on my radar. If they were to have a legitimate reason to believe that they are not evil, then I'd let them go. I wouldn't take any chances of hurting civilians just on a possibly flawed hunch and falling. But then again if everyone did this, then paladins would be out of business... which may not be that bad of a thing.

[Mari01]

I'm not too sure what goes on inside the twisted little Lawful Stupid mind of a paladin, but if I were to play one, I wouldn't go around chopping of heads that were registered as evil on my radar. If they were to have a legitimate reason to believe that they are not evil, then I'd let them go. I wouldn't take any chances of hurting civilians just on a possibly flawed hunch and falling. But then again if everyone did this, then paladins would be out of business... which may not be that bad of a thing.

I'm not saying to do this to everyone you meet on sight. But ''lol ring makes me evil" isnt going to last very long. And in such a case, why wouldnt anything be looked into? Why would he just accept such an outrageous story on this person's (clearly untrustworthy) word? Removing the ring with the promise of full compensation doesn't seem like such a Lawful Stupid act.

And let's say he does go through with the finger cutting simply because he doesn't want to fall. It would be perfectly justified in saying he would pay for any and all healing magic to restore that person. Or even go above and beyond and give something more for wasting his/her time. On the flip side, when the ring comes off and you're still evil.....

[Malimar]

On the other hand, Malimar gave me an idea...
I can explain that I am wearing a cursed ring that cannot be removed that emanates an evil aura (sorry, ripped from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html))

I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly what planted the idea in my head in the first place.


I'm not saying to do this to everyone you meet on sight. But ''lol ring makes me evil" isnt going to last very long. And in such a case, why wouldnt anything be looked into? Why would he just accept such an outrageous story on this person's (clearly untrustworthy) word? Removing the ring with the promise of full compensation doesn't seem like such a Lawful Stupid act.

And let's say he does go through with the finger cutting simply because he doesn't want to fall. It would be perfectly justified in saying he would pay for any and all healing magic to restore that person. Or even go above and beyond and give something more for wasting his/her time. On the flip side, when the ring comes off and you're still evil.....

Chopping off a finger, even if you grow it back later, is not merely an inconvenience. It's quite painful and probably psychologically scarring. Unless the Paladin has very good reason to suspect a lie, I might even call it an Evil act.

That said, could just go bypass the problem by using a choker or other neckwear instead of a ring. Demanding a person cut off their head to prove their innocence would definitely be Fall-worthy.

(I suppose one benefit of using an item instead of a curse on your family is that you get Magic Aura at level 1. I'm not sure what you'd use to make it unremovable, though. Most legit cursed items involve Bestow Curse, which is Sor/Wiz 4.)

All of that said, anything along these lines probably relies on finding a way to get Bluff as a class skill.

[demigodus]

And let's say he does go through with the finger cutting simply because he doesn't want to fall. It would be perfectly justified in saying he would pay for any and all healing magic to restore that person. Or even go above and beyond and give something more for wasting his/her time. On the flip side, when the ring comes off and you're still evil.....

I really don't think "I will heal for your injuries" constitutes justification for what could be considered minor forms of torture.

That said, I agree that the "cursed ring" argument wouldn't be sufficient by itself. The evil character needs to act as a paragon of good in public, and never tell a lie (well, never be caught in a lie). Then the paladin would have very good reason for believing the story. Especially if the evil character looks like he is actively looking a way to remove the ring.

[JonRG]

If Evil Dude really wants the ring gone, he'd consent to have the finger chopped off, thrown into the fires of Mt. Doom, and then Regenerate a new ringless finger.

What if the paladin wants to help? "How terrible! I will get my brothers at the Temple of Pelor to remove your affliction at once!" The lies will keep piling up, making astronomically high Bluff checks for you. Mr. Paladin will keep an eye on you, and then he'll catch you at something.

If your intention is to avoid conflict rather than con the paladin, you can just play a very Evil-tinged LN.

[Tancred]

OP: I believe the "Veil of Cyric" feat from p146 of "City of Splendors: Waterdeep" will do exactly what you need it to:


You do not register as evil to detect evil spells,
spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities unless the aura power
(see the detect evil spell, Player’s Handbook page 218) of the
detector exceeds your own.

(There's more details/prereqs in the book, but I'm just quoting a snippet for standard copyright reasons)

[Gullara]

Hrm, I have an idea, but you'd have to talk to the Paladin's player. In the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft book there is an alternate class feature for Paladins that replaces Detect Evil with Detect Undead. If Detect Evil isn't all that important to him/her, perhaps that can be taken instead? That way if he/she's going to be finding out you're evil, it'll be through role playing and not because he/she happened to use Detect Evil on you.

[Oscredwin]

Ummm, everyone has a reason to go adventuring in their backstory. Yours is to find a specific way to remove the ring. You've been to temples etc ance couldn't get help and you've started questing to find a power that could remove the curse. The Paladin should buy that and even better, the paladin's player will buy that. It's what DnD characters do.

[Rejusu]

Basically, you cannot be an Evil character or the other player cannot be a Paladin. The two cannot be in the same group, not without houserules that relax the Paladin's (awful, terrible, stupid, poorly-designed) Code.

So you need to talk to your entire group and come up with an out-of-game solution. There is no in-game solution.


The Paladin Code leaves no room for redeeming evil creatures. They are supposed to be the ones who put evil to the sword, no ifs ands or buts about it. You cant redeem someone that's evil without associating with them. Unless you're willing to adopt the Pathfinder code of conduct, your friend CANNOT play his paladin.

No, even under the badly written 3.5 code of conduct they can be in the same group and there is an in-game solution. The solution being that which the OP is looking for: "don't get caught". A Paladin is only restricted to not knowingly associating with evil characters. Or in simple terms, what he doesn't know can't hurt him. As badly written as it is the code does have provisions that protect the Paladin from falling due to events outside their control. A Paladin may associate with all the evil characters they like provided they remain ignorant that they're actually evil.

So yes, the two can co-exist within the same party. It's diffcult, and it can't last forever as the Paladin is going to figure it out eventually. But it's more than possible and makes for some great roleplaying. It's going to be very difficult however if the Paladin player is fond of metagaming.

To the OP:
- Make sure the Paladin player doesn't know your evil so he has no reason to randomly screen the members of the party with detect evil.
- In the short term make your alignment undetectable, some of the suggestions here should work.
- In the long term invest in some relatively fool proof way to alter the Paladins memories as a contingency plan. Oh he found out you're evil? Time for a mind wipe!

Also is there any particular reason why neutral wouldn't work? I understand it's for some early entry trick but I'm not really sure what you gain from being evil that you couldn't get as a neutral character.

You also have one other option, try and convert the Paladin. Get him to fall into Blackguard and bend the other PC's to your way too. Instant evil party.

[hamishspence]

Iif I were to play one, I wouldn't go around chopping of heads that were registered as evil on my radar. If they were to have a legitimate reason to believe that they are not evil, then I'd let them go. I wouldn't take any chances of hurting civilians just on a possibly flawed hunch and falling.

Eberron Campaign Setting rulebook emphasises that not everyone who is evil deserves to be attacked, and that plenty of "civilians" are evil- the alignment's not restricted to villains and monsters.

Quite apart from the fact that some beings that are not evil will detect as evil- nonevil undead, nonevil fiends, and nonevil clerics of evil deities.



You cant redeem someone that's evil without associating with them.

Depends on your definition of "associating"- a narrow definition may permit it. And the "Falling" rules don't actually list "associating" as one of the things that causes a Fall.

[Mari01]

No, even under the badly written 3.5 code of conduct they can be in the same group and there is an in-game solution. The solution being that which the OP is looking for: "don't get caught". A Paladin is only restricted to not knowingly associating with evil characters. Or in simple terms, what he doesn't know can't hurt him. As badly written as it is the code does have provisions that protect the Paladin from falling due to events outside their control. A Paladin may associate with all the evil characters they like provided they remain ignorant that they're actually evil.

So yes, the two can co-exist within the same party. It's diffcult, and it can't last forever as the Paladin is going to figure it out eventually. But it's more than possible and makes for some great roleplaying. It's going to be very difficult however if the Paladin player is fond of metagaming.

To the OP:
- Make sure the Paladin player doesn't know your evil so he has no reason to randomly screen the members of the party with detect evil.
- In the short term make your alignment undetectable, some of the suggestions here should work.
- In the long term invest in some relatively fool proof way to alter the Paladins memories as a contingency plan. Oh he found out you're evil? Time for a mind wipe!

Also is there any particular reason why neutral wouldn't work? I understand it's for some early entry trick but I'm not really sure what you gain from being evil that you couldn't get as a neutral character.

You also have one other option, try and convert the Paladin. Get him to fall into Blackguard and bend the other PC's to your way too. Instant evil party.

So in order to play your character, the paladin has to be completely ignorant. And then when he does find out, you alter his character just so you can continue playing? What's the point at this stage? You're just trying to come up with ways of screwing the paladin over now.

And I'm not advocating a CLEAVE AND SMITE Lawful Stupid Paladin. The first idea was a lie about a ring that you want removed. If you want it gone that badly, why is cutting your finger off not an option? Secondly, what's wrong with the LN with evil tendencies? That allows for far more role playing with the paladin character allowed to try and save you from your evil side. Playing an actual evil character, you narrow yourself to being bound to do nothing more than try and undermine his character (replacing detect evil with detect undead in a non-undead game for example) or to split the party up. Following the code outside of house rules, when you get found as evil, its you go or he goes.

[DeltaEmil]

Ask the paladin player to play one of the evil paladin-variants. Now you can be a team of happy evil-doers, without having to be assinine towards each another.

[OracleofSilence]

Depends on your definition of "associating"- a narrow definition may permit it. And the "Falling" rules don't actually list "associating" as one of the things that causes a Fall.

This.

Also, it seems that this is a place for conversing with both DM and paladin player. Just let him know that your are playing an evil character. There. I said it. Have the paladin know as well. Then, throughout the game, roleplay your asses off. Get the DM to say that the paladin will not fall from adventuring with you, BUT allow the Paladin to possibly redeem you (at least to neutral) throguh good examples and valid arguments. If it works, it acutally improves the story, and if it doesn't then it improves the story. From a mechanics view point, just ge yourself to LN at most, and call it good (if he does his job), or let the DM have the Paladin "fall" without loosing his abilities (similar to the way Clerics can draw power from faith, let Paladins draw divine energy from tehir personal code, which should be able to evolve). There.

It requires some work for the DM, but may eve make the game more fun, as long s both you and the other player are willing to play real people, rather then one dimensional crunch constructs.

[Mari01]

This.

Also, it seems that this is a place for conversing with both DM and paladin player. Just let him know that your are playing an evil character. There. I said it. Have the paladin know as well. Then, throughout the game, roleplay your asses off. Get the DM to say that the paladin will not fall from adventuring with you, BUT allow the Paladin to possibly redeem you (at least to neutral) throguh good examples and valid arguments. If it works, it acutally improves the story, and if it doesn't then it improves the story. From a mechanics view point, just ge yourself to LN at most, and call it good (if he does his job), or let the DM have the Paladin "fall" without loosing his abilities (similar to the way Clerics can draw power from faith, let Paladins draw divine energy from tehir personal code, which should be able to evolve). There.

It requires some work for the DM, but may eve make the game more fun, as long s both you and the other player are willing to play real people, rather then one dimensional crunch constructs.

This seems to be the best option. Working with the DM is much better than making the paladin change his character to evil or any of the other options.

[hamishspence]

D&D fiction tends to have a lot of paladin + evil characters working together to solve a bigger problem.

Sometimes the paladin ends up working with an army of fiends, even.

The Savage Tide adventure path as "persuade fiends and celestials to help you defeat the Big Bad" as a major plot thread- and there's no warnings that paladins simply can't be used in the adventure path.

[Chronos]

The Detect Evil and associated magics are irrelevant. If you're committing evil acts while hanging out 24/7 with a paladin, sooner or later, he's going to catch you, and he's going to want an explanation. The first few times, you might be able to bluff your way out of it, but eventually, the truth will out, and you'll have forced your group to fall apart.

[hamishspence]

Both being members of the same Neutral organisation can work. It's not unheard of for an organisation to have both paladins and evil characters in it.

Being ordered to work together by a superior might explain why each tolerates the other if both are aware of each other's nature.

[Mari01]

Both being members of the same Neutral organisation can work. It's not unheard of for an organisation to have both paladins and evil characters in it.

Being ordered to work together by a superior might explain why each tolerates the other if both are aware of each other's nature.

This still falls under the perview of "DM says you can".

[JonRG]

Once you start talking about changes to the paladin's concept, it's time to sit down with his player. Not everyone wants to be Roy from OotS.

[hamishspence]

This still falls under the perview of "DM says you can".

There is an element of it being supported in the fiction- and the splatbooks.

[Mari01]

There is an element of it being supported in the fiction- and the splatbooks.

Many things are capable in the fiction that can't happen in the game. It's fairly old but I just recently read about the Paladin of Asmodeous. Does it make sense that a scheming archdevil would dupe would-be heroes to further his own causes (sending a LG Paladin against a horde of demons)? You bet it does. But when the game rules have their say, it can't happen outside of a DM saying "That's cool. Let's allow that."

[hamishspence]

The game rules don't prohibit paladins and evil characters being part of the same organisation though. Not even knowingly. "Associate" is a very unclear word- and it would seem that the various game designers didn't interpret it as widely as all that.

[JonRG]

But once Ballista's alignment gets out (which it quite likely will), the paladin will then be knowingly associating with an evil-doer. That solution just adds a third facet to the paladin choice between his 'friend' and his vows.

[FearlessGnome]

A cleric with the Treachery domain gets Nondetection as a first level spell. Admittedly, the only Deity who offers this domain is Hiddukel from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It also doesn't work with Generic caster, I suppose, but it is the only thing I can think of.

Still, yes, boo. If the DM dislikes Evil characters and there is a Paladin in the party, just make something else.

[Mari01]

The game rules don't prohibit paladins and evil characters being part of the same organisation though. Not even knowingly. "Associate" is a very unclear word- and it would seem that the various game designers didn't interpret it as widely as all that.

What would you consider to be "associating" with then? If we have different definitions, then it only make sense we'd have different ideas on what's allowed. Until we can agree on a universal definition, no one will be reaching an agreement.

[mattie_p]

Associating clearly does not include joining the same order, as the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC (worshipping Wee Jas) explicitly permits paladins to continue to advance as paladins while also permitting evil members and chapters.

[Mari01]

Associating clearly does not include joining the same order, as the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC (worshipping Wee Jas) explicitly permits paladins to continue to advance as paladins while also permitting evil members and chapters.

I've always taken that because Wee Jas is a LN deity who supports both good and evil openly. Having evil members in your order is different from talking with them, sharing treasure, items, healing and what not. When I think of associating I'm talking day-to-day in your face actions and everyday dealings with that person. A LG Paladin of Wee Jas can accept that her teachings can be twisted in such ways (Evil), but refuse to acknowledge them as her own. The same could be said of a Pally of St. Cuthbert, for example. Although in the case of St. Cuthbert, its more of using the rules to your advantage rather than a devout pursuit of seeing them followed.

[Ballista]

OK to clear things up, I'm not simply asking for ways to get out of being found to be Evil through mechanical means and be done with it. I realize that a lot of roleplaying must be had for any of this to work out. I am, however, concerned about the fact that the paladin may simply decide to start spamming Detect Evil at my general direction because he has suspicions irl about me playing an evil character. I'm not sure how good he is with NOT metagaming as this sort of situation has yet to arise so I'm just trying to find ways to make sure he doesn't just spend 18 seconds casting a spell, figuring out I'm evil, smiting me, and then forcing me to roll a new character.

TLDR: I'm not looking for a shortcut, just a way to stall the paladin so I can have enough backing to supposedly prove my "Good-ness"

PS: I asked him if he wanted to use any ACF's, but he declined all of them... as for his build, he wants to be an Ashworm Dragoon cuz he read Dune recently or something, so no Ruby Knight Vindicator (even though I was worshiping Wee Jas :smallfrown:)

[Gullara]

Yeah, I definitely agree that this should be worked out OoC with the Paladin's player, rather than trying to hide it from him OoC and IC. (Sorry if I misunderstood your post.) I think others said it better, but yes, you should definitely be talking to the DM and the Paladin's player.

[Answerer]

And again, the answer is to talk with the player.

[JonRG]

If the player's really suspicious, no mechanic will eliminate that. I think you're just gonna have to tell him. Hopefully, he'll either turn a blind eye or keep IC and OOC separate.

If it turns out he's too metagamey, just shelve the Walker in the Wastes for another campaign.

[Rejusu]

OK to clear things up, I'm not simply asking for ways to get out of being found to be Evil through mechanical means and be done with it. I realize that a lot of roleplaying must be had for any of this to work out. I am, however, concerned about the fact that the paladin may simply decide to start spamming Detect Evil at my general direction because he has suspicions irl about me playing an evil character. I'm not sure how good he is with NOT metagaming as this sort of situation has yet to arise so I'm just trying to find ways to make sure he doesn't just spend 18 seconds casting a spell, figuring out I'm evil, smiting me, and then forcing me to roll a new character.

TLDR: I'm not looking for a shortcut, just a way to stall the paladin so I can have enough backing to supposedly prove my "Good-ness"

PS: I asked him if he wanted to use any ACF's, but he declined all of them... as for his build, he wants to be an Ashworm Dragoon cuz he read Dune recently or something, so no Ruby Knight Vindicator (even though I was worshiping Wee Jas :smallfrown:)

Well really you shouldn't have to stall him too long. After a certain point unless the rest of the party sides with him then he'll probably cease to be much of a threat even if he does find you out. He is a Paladin after all. But again, any reason why you can't make this work as a neutral character and then turn evil down the line?

[kabreras]

Tbh its purelly the type of situation where you have to deal player to player to make it work. be it the ring thing, the non detect part, or whatever.

Beeing evil is not just about killing peoples, its about corruption, its avout deviances you can RP a lot of litle things that will make you stay evil while still beeing able to work with a good aligned party.

Now you just have to deal with the paladin player so he dont play inquisitor like about everything.

[JusticeZero]

You also should ask the GM how nitpicky they are being about the Paladin Code. Many people, for instance, read the 'do not deal with evil' in a way that gives something of a Belkar Exception where they can work on redeeming them. Also, do you need to remain evil for the PrC to work, or just to be evil to enter? In some circumstances, you can put the evil acts in your backstory and coast toward Neutral for awhile.
These are all things that you need to ask the GM rather than the paladin.

[Ravens_cry]

Wear a full suit body of woven lead?

[Person_Man]

I think that kidnapping people is a pretty ridiculous thing for any player to do, regardless of alignment. It invites investigation and retribution from every organization that is either morally opposed to it or has something to lose by it (their families, clan, law enforcement, military, churches, guilds, etc).

If you need humanoids to convert to undead or run experiments on or whatever, just be a normal adventurer. You'll probably come across tons of enemies. Kill them, or use non-lethal damage to defeat them if you need them alive for some reason. You get the bodies that you want, but you won't be inviting any additional scrutiny, because adventurers are essentially murderers and thieves with good public relations.

Once you've figured out how to be Evil without being an overt criminal, you just need to have a conversation with the Paladin player about it.
In game, the Paladin doesn't have a reason to "scan" everyone in his party with Detect Evil unless you give him an overt reason to. You just need the player to be cool with it. "Hey, I really want to play this Evil guy who does X Y and Z. I know you want to play this Good Paladin, who would really have a problem with it. Are you ok with me doing X Y and Z as long as I can keep it a secret from your character? And if I'm stupid and get caught, we just fight each other, and the deceased loser has to roll up a new character? Cool story idea, right?"

[Deathra13]

Although not really doable at level 1, if you go bard for 2 levels you can cast undetectable alignment at the beginning of each day provided a high enough cha bonus for the spell slot. This is the only surefire way Ive found without item help. Though there are a couple feats to bump wealth and some items in complete scoundrel for this.

[Diarmuid]

Undetectable alignment would beat it. Lasts 24 hours but I don't know how you'd get access to it at 1st level.

[Story]

Precocious Apprentice on a level 1 Bard could work.

[elonin]

If the paladin is the only one in the group who is good then the paladin should't accept the party. They will not knowingly associate with evil. And being around neutrals should raise their hackles. Sounds like the dm might be relaxing things for the paladin already.

[Deathra13]

Unfortunately precocious apprentice would need gm approval since by raw it gives a second level spell and undetectable alignment is 1st level, bard progression just doesnt give you that until 2nd level. I cant imagine any gm refusing to allow you to make a feat less powerful though.

[SowZ]

Well ultimately, it seems that clever role playing is your goal. Don't play Zykon, just play a small reserved and smart evil. For example, consider the the difference between...

Well any successful politician and lets say Voldemort. both are evil (in (usually) hard to detect ways in the cases of politicians), but evil they are. The only difference is that one inspires loyalty and trust, while te other inspires fear. The details are in the role-playing.

:xykon: It's Xykon with an X! Zs are for p*****s!

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't do thread necromancy.