[3.5] Low Level Gestalt Ideas

[RMS Oceanic]

I previously asked this board for help with a Swift Hunter//Soulbow build. However I've since learned that since it's my brother's first time DMing a Gestalt game, he'd prefer to start at a lower level, probably no higher than level three. Since that means three levels minimum before the Soulbow part of my build can come online, I've been thinking about other builds I could do that would be more immediately useful, and I'd like help planning their future development.

Campaign notes
- We will be based mostly in a large Dwarven underground city, although we don't have to be Dwarves.
- Skill houserules: We use Pathfinder's Perception, Stealth and Acrobatics skills

My rolled stats: 18, 18, 17, 15, 15, 13. Pretty awesome, few things should be out of my reach.

Idea #1: Paladin//Cloistered Cleric

Taking Serenity at level 3 means most of my class abilities rely on Wisdom. Naturally pick up Knowledge Devotion through CC, this character would be a Frontline fighter, a Knowledge Bank, a Medic and possibly the Face. Stats would be WIS > STR > CON > INT > DEX > CHA. NOTE: My brother is not allowing Divine Metamagic. Main questions:
- Since I have a spare Turn undead that would be lost, what ACF would work?
- Are special mounts useful in urban environments? If not, what could I replace them with?
- General Feat/Prestige class recommendations


Idea #2: Monk//Wizard

Take Kung Fu Genius at level 1 for Int to Monk Abilities. This guy would mainly be the Arcanist and a backup front line fighter. Stats are INT > STR > DEX > CON > WIS > CHA. I'm not sure which specialization, if any, would suit him best.

Idea #3: Fighter (Unearthed Arcana: Swap Feats for Sneak Attack)//Swordsage

This idea just popped into my head as I was writing this. The fighter variant beefs up the Swordsage's hitpoints, fortitude saves and BAB, while also upping his damage output. He'd be the party's scout and flank buddy. This would be my first Tome of Battle character, so it would be handy to get good general Swordsage advice. Stats are DEX > WIS > CON > STR > INT > CHA

Idea #4: Duskblade//???

I've always liked Duskblades but never got the chance to play one. There are a number of ways I could approach Gestalting him, but I'm not sure which is the best: Should I couple him with a Rogue or Scout and turn him into a skill monkey striker and knowledge bank, or maybe with a Beguiler or Achivist to give him more spells to channel, or a martial class to give him extra combat obtions and better hit points? This one's tough. Base stats would be STR > INT > CON > DEX > WIS > CHA, but that would depend on what I couple him with.

Idea #5: Sorceror//Favored Soul

The Therugey idea. With this I'd probably have my offensive spells as arcane and my utility spells as divine, so I don't have to worry too much about raising Wisdom. In any case my stats would be CHA > CON > WIS > DEX > INT > STR

Idea #6: The Swift Soulbow again

I'm still interested in this idea, being the Scout and Ranged character, but the main problem is how do I build him in a viable way that he can contribute without having to worry about my main source of archery not coming online until level six? Stats would be WIS > DEX > CON > INT > STR > CHA

I'd like to properly develop all of these ideas, as I currently don't know what the other party members are playing, so if I need to fit a certain role I should be able to get to building my character without too much thought. Thanks in advance,

[Gotterdammerung]

there is an alternate class feature swap for cleric, you trade turn undead and some other stuff for paladins smite and some other stuff. It is in UA if you want to look up the details.

Psychic warrior is a cool pair up for duskblade.

An alternate way to go would be to build an enlightened fist build on one side and a duskblade on the other. If you throw in spellwarped sniper you can turn spells into rays then turn those spells into touch spells and then touch multiple people with them. Not sure if there is anything there but its neat.

And yet another way to get some fun out of a duskblade would be to pair it with a normal casting class (possibly an advanced progression prestige class in the future like ur-priest or sublime chord). And then invest in ways to channel spells into damage like arcane strike.


Bardblades can be cool in gestalt.
Basically, with Song of the White Raven from ToB, you can invest 1 lvl into bard and still have lots of levels to play with. Quick example Example bard 1/19 anything on one side and warblade 20 on the other side. Add in some dragonfire inspiration cheese and you got some fun.

[RMS Oceanic]

Can you channel Psionics through the Duskblade ability? Also taking a "main" arcane caster means having no armor, which is risky enough for most people but a front line striker may feel some pain.

[deuxhero]

Actually, Duskblade 3 (or whenever they get channeling)/Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion ACF), Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackguard 4/whatever//Dread Necromancer 20 gets a lot of spells they can channel off the DN list, they can wear a mithiral breastplate without penalty, have infinite healing if they take TTS, charisma to saves three times (well 2 plus another that only works for spells), causes enemies to take -6 penalty to saves before you even do anything, poison use (which doesn't interfere with channel), a fiendish companion (nothing compared to your undead, but being intelligent, it can take Hidden Talent: Psionic Minor Creation, and fuel any poison use your want, plus any other tricks that grant passive abilities like Dragonic Aura or Martial Stance). and all the DN stuff.

[Taffimai]

I believe there are nice alternate things to do with your turn undead in the Book of Exalted Deeds, but I'm not sure it's what you're looking for, as I don't think they were ACF.

I had a player once who had a Duskblade//Spellthief (from Complete Adventurer). Those classes have awesome synergy.

[deuxhero]

Oh yes, because Blackguard 4 actually lets you cast divine spells, you can DMM your Dread Necromancer spells with Southern Magician.

The build above is playable from level 3 on, though most campaigns aren't too suited for PCs who aren't just evil, but twice champions of evil.

[Gotterdammerung]

Can you channel Psionics through the Duskblade ability? Also taking a "main" arcane caster means having no armor, which is risky enough for most people but a front line striker may feel some pain.

No you can't channel your psionics but that isn't why I suggested pairing psychic warrior with duskblade. Psychic warrior peppers in some bonus feats while giving you some very useful combat options like psionic pounce and expansion and other things. In that way, it works well with duskblade. And duskblade covers a lot of psychic warriors weaknesses by having a good bab and useful class abilities.


Taking a main caster does not necessarily mean a lack of armor. There are quite a few ways to obliterate arcane spell failure. But even if you can't wear armor, abjurant champion can go a long way towards reclaiming that ac. And my suggestion was to find ways to channel the spells into damage which would bypass any arcane spell failure anyway.

[RMS Oceanic]

Talking again with my brother: The last campaign he ran was evil, so he'd like to run a Good one, so I think that diptastic build may be slightly frowned upon. :smalltongue:

I've thought of another possible combination I'd like to explore: Instead of Sneak Attack Fighter//Swordsage, how about Paladin//Swordsage? Once again making use of Serenity, he'd have full BAB, d10 hit points, 6 skill points a level, all good saves and Wisdom to all those saves, and to my AC. All I'd need is a Prestige Class that Grants Mettle, and I'd be a save-making machine, while also being the Scout of the Party. How viable would that be?

[Soranar]

First thought: you have insane stats, lets use them

18, 18, 17, 15, 15, 13 I'm sure we can do something with that

Second thought: What is always nice to gestalt with... Factotum, ToB classes, Cleric, Racial HD, templates, War hulk...

Personally I really like a factotum Gestalt if only because of action economy is insane once you reach level 8 (really hard to go higher than wizard//factotum gestalts)

Monk is nice mostly because of flurry of blows + full BAB and some way to pounce but, at the end of the day, you're still just a beatstick

So, something that is MAD, that breaks action economy and is useful no matter what the situation is...

You know, a psychic warrior can become really powerful when paired with a high BAB class (it already gets plenty of versatility from its psionic abilities and bonus feats)

I'd recommend a Psychic Warrior //Fighter (dungeoncrasher, see Personman's flaming homer) build

The combo with start working fairly quickly and it'll become devastating.

[Saint GoH]

+1 to Paladin//Swordsage. You'd pretty much secure yourself not only as a moderate skill monkey but also a scout that can jump enemies and frontline. Plus you have a wealth of RP options available (I was thinking Shadowsun Ninja to embrace the duality of being a holy warrior that uses Shadowhand maneuvers to further his cause).

I won't bother with the crunch, as you seem to have already squared away essentially what you need with Serenity.

[Darth Stabber]

Duskblade//archivist
1) divine spells = no spell failure
2) shared INT dependence
3) all sorts of neat knowledge related goodies
4) good selection of both buffs and painful things to smack people with (especially once you have harm).
5) access to heals and dedebuffs.
6) archivists wisdom is ignorable (bonus spells only), only divine caster I know of that with that little wis dependence.

[Duke of URL]

Monk is nice mostly because of flurry of blows + full BAB and some way to pounce but, at the end of the day, you're still just a beatstick

General correction -- while Monk is normally a woefully underpowered class, in gestalt it's actually quite good because it has wonderful passive abilities, including good all-around saves. You can pair it with any Wisdom or (with Kung-Fu Genius) Intelligence-based class. If you're going for a touch spell caster, flurrying spells that allow for multiple touches can get pretty sick. Combine with natural attacks for extra laughs

[Darth Stabber]

General correction -- while Monk is normally a woefully underpowered class, in gestalt it's actually quite good because it has wonderful passive abilities, including good all-around saves. You can pair it with any Wisdom or (with Kung-Fu Genius) Intelligence-based class. If you're going for a touch spell caster, flurrying spells that allow for multiple touches can get pretty sick.

Along similar lines incarnate, totemist, and binder all offer a primarily passive suite of abilities. And unlike monk, they can be modified each day. Even in monk's one good role it is overshadowed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Idea #1: Paladin//Cloistered Cleric
Pick a class to stay single-classed, prestige out with the other. Whichever one stays single-classed, you trade its Turn Undead ability for the Divine Counterspell ACF in CM, and pick up the Divine Defiance feat from FC2, preferably with the Inquisition domain. Divine Defiance allows you to trade a turn use to attempt to counterspell as an immediate action. You can use it to make a Divine Counterspell attempt, which is rolled as a Dispel check at a caster level equal to the turning level of the class you put it on. You get a +2 bonus for having Kn: Arcana 5+ ranks, and as a Dispel check it will benefit from your Inquisition domain. You can only use Divine Counterspell 1+Cha mod times per day, but see if Extra Turning will give you +4 uses.

Idea #2: Monk//Wizard
More like Monk 1/ Psychic Warrior 19// Wizard with Tashalatora. Wis 15 is plenty for a Psychic Warrior to work out of, and you'll get plenty of bonus feats for combat tricks on top of your buffs.

Idea #3: Fighter (Unearthed Arcana: Swap Feats for Sneak Attack)//Swordsage
Keep in mind that a Sneak Attack Fighter can still take Fighter-exclusive feats (Specialization through Weapon Supremacy in PH2), you just might be lacking the feats to get them. You can splash two or four Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) on either side for some feats plus Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. You'll probably want to go the TWF route, with Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, so it's already slightly feat-intensive. Maybe grab Swashbuckler 1 at 1st level for Weapon Finesse, then Sneak Attack Fighter from there. You could even do Daring Outlaw, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it in gestalt. Don't forget about Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), free bonuses are free.

Idea #4: Duskblade//???
I agree that Archivist would be the way to go, but which side to prestige on, and when? Archivist is good until 11th+, and Duskblade you should either jump out of immediately, or wait until 13th+. I'd probably go Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Duskblade 10// Archivist 11/ Paragnostic Apostle, Divine Oracle, Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist, etc. 9. You don't really need to worry about armor, considering Abjurant Champion + Mind Over Matter (Paragnostic Apostle) + (Greater) Luminous Armor is equivalent to +7 Full Plate, with no max Dex or encumbrance, and it gives opponents a -4 to melee attacks.

Idea #5: Sorceror//Favored Soul
I'd probably either switch this to an Int-synergy theurge (Wizard/Psion/Archivist, pick two), or switch it to all-in Cha-synergy (X stat to Y bonus style) with full casting on one side of the build.

Idea #6: The Swift Soulbow again
Just use a normal bow until then? Maybe drop Soulbow and just play a dedicated archer, most are viable from 1st level.

New Idea: Dungeoncrasher Figher//Warblade, with War Hulk
Use something like Half-Ogre (Races of Destiny version) or Half-Orc + Half-Minotaur (strong enough to break the game in half). LA+Warblade 5/ War Hulk 10/ Warblade 5// Fighter 9/ Warblade 6/ Fighter 5, take EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG p144-145) and TWF with Combat Reflexes, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, and of course the Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape. Use Knock-Back (RoS) with Dungeoncrasher, eventually you can use your War Hulk sweeps to crash a crowd of opponents into a corner and batter the whole group against the wall whenever one tries to get out. Get Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) so you don't have to take or even qualify for ITWF. Try to pick up Improved Trip and Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) while you're at it, and be sure to get the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) with Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. If you go Half-Orc + Half-Minotaur, get Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) 1 and include a stay in the Otyugh Hole (CS) in your backstory to get Menacing Demeanor (CS, RoD). Maybe get all three Half-Orc Paragon and even three Orc Paragon for higher Str, but you want an even-numbered Fighter level at 20th to get Weapon Supremacy (PH2), because you qualify with Fighter + (Warblade -2) = 18. Put Wrathful Healing on your weapons (Enemies and Allies p20, +3 cost) and you should never have to worry about dying to HP damage.

[RMS Oceanic]

Thanks for your advice everyone. I think of these ideas, I'm going to develop Cloistered Paladin, Duskivist and Paladinsage into basic level 3 builds. With that in mind:

Build #1:
Human Paladin 3 // Cloistered Cleric 3

STR 18
DEX 15
CON 17
INT 15
WIS 18
CHA 13

Deity: Heironeus (My brother tends to stick to the Greyhawk pantheon)
Class Ability Choices:
Replace Cleric's Turn Undead with Divine Counterspell.
Domains: War, Knowledge* and another one
Feats: Weapon Focus Longsword (B), Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion(B), Serenity, ???
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, The Planes, Dungeoneering, Nature, Local), Spellcraft, Concentration, Diplomacy

Build #2:
Human Duskblade 3 // Archivist 3

STR 18
DEX 15
CON 17
INT 18
WIS 15
CHA 13

Feats: Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Combat Casting(B), Combat Expertise (Going for a possible trip build later on)
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, The Planes, Dungeoneering, Nature, Local), Spellcraft, Concentration, [One skill free, maybe a few ranks in Acrobatics/climb/similar?]
Spell Choice: A general offensive duskblade/defensive archivist strategy. Fill Duskblade's ranks with damaging spells, and Archivist's ranks with healing and buffs, until nice debuffs like Bestow Curse and offensive stuff like Harm turns up. Also there will be few spells I learn as a Duskblade that I couldn't learn as an Archivist, to maximize flexibility.

Build #3:
Human Paladin 3 // Swordsage 3

STR 15 or 18
DEX 18 or 15
CON 17
INT 15
WIS 18
CHA 13

Feats: Adaptive Style, Serenity, [Two Free Feats, see notes]
Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Concentration, [Others]
Notes: This is my first Tome of Battle character, so I'm not sure what maneuvers or combat style to specialize in. I was leaning towards Diamond Mind and the Shadow Sun, but I don't know if I could be TWF, Single Blade or even unarmed, and whether I should take Weapon Finesse. Recommendations?