Locate city bomb?

[Vegan Zombie]

Hey playgrounders,

I've heard a few time about this "locate city" bomb but I have no clue how it works or can be achieved. Would anybody be able to shed some light on this for me. Thanks in advance!

[aldeayeah]

Stacking damaging metamagic (particularly Explosive Spell) on a divination spell with a very large area of effect (particularly Locate City).

[SirFredgar]

I also beleive the Locate City Bomb was debunked, and doesn't work by RAW. I'm attempting to locate the original thread to verify

[Zonugal]

Typically I think it goes something like:



locate city (RoD) - 10 mile/level radius, finds a city

1. apply snowcasting (FB) - spell now has the cold descriptor
2. apply flash frost feat (PHB2) - spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area (and makes area slippery but we don't care about that)
3. apply energy substitution (electricity) (CArc) - spell now deals electricity damge
4. apply born of three thunders (CArc) - spell deals half electric, half sonic, but what is important is that it now requires a reflex save, allowing us to...
5. apply explosive spell (CArc) - all creatures/things in area that fail their reflex saves are shunted to the outside of the area of effect (10 miles/level) and take 1d6 damage per 10' moved!

voila, you have just nuked an entire kingdom with a 4th level spell slot, a handful of snow and a silly combination of feats. Of course you have to be creative as well to not get shunted 200 miles yourself, or end up with a thousand tons of debris and bodies on top of you.

[Calanon]

Take Locate City (range: 10 miles/level), apply Snowcasting (making it [cold]), apply Flash Frost (adding 2 cold damage to everything in the area), apply Energy Substitution to make it electric, apply Born of the Three Thunders to change damage type and add a reflex save to avoid half the damage, then apply Explosive Spell, forcing a Reflex save vs being blasted to the edge of the area, taking 1d6 of damage per 10 feet traveled (so, at the center, it's 5280d6/level of falling damage).

Thank you T.V Trope

[The Mentalist]

You also add Fell Drain (Libris Mortis) to give everything a negative level and raise 80% of the populace as Wights 24 hours later. (This one works even without the much debated Explosive Spell and radius of a 10 mile/level circle)

[Darth Stabber]

To my knowledge it has not been disputed as being illegal by RAW. Now most GMs will rule that illegal. Personally, if a player took all of those otherwise subpar feats, I would let them do it.

To make the spell even scarier add either fell animate or fell drain. Fell animate will make all of the victims into zombies. Fell drain will give all of the victims a negative level, which means if they die (which most will) you will get a massive number of wights.

[SirFredgar]

You also add Fell Drain (Libris Mortis) to give everything a negative level and raise 80% of the populace as Wights 24 hours later. (This one works even without the much debated Explosive Spell and radius of a 10 mile/level circle)

Yeah, as he mentioned here the main contention is that Locate City has a circle radius rather then a sphere. This means the "closest" edge explosive spell could force you to would be directly above/below the circle... meaning you are tossed up a tiny bit, and may/may not take falling damage (depending on the dm, I suppose).

But as the Mentalist points out.. the fell drain version still works, as long as you are willing to build a character around this trick.

Edit: And the Explosive spell might still be valid too, depending on specifc GM, cause it's still a bit hazy with it's 2d vs 3d shape because of certain spell text references.

[Cog]

Even the necromantic version doesn't work. Flash Frost requires that the spell you apply it to affect an area, while Locate City merely has an area that it reveals information regarding.

[Darth Stabber]

Even the necromantic version doesn't work. Flash Frost requires that the spell you apply it to affect an area, while Locate City merely has an area that it reveals information regarding.

Hairs, you're splitting them.

[OracleofSilence]

Yeah, i seem to recall that explosive spell does not work. however, Locate City w/Arcane Thesis/Snowcasting/Flashfrost/Fell Drain/Invisible Spell means that you get to start the Wightpocalypse at 7th level out of a 1st level spell. a whole damn lot of times

[Calanon]

You also add Fell Drain (Libris Mortis) to give everything a negative level and raise 80% of the populace as Wights 24 hours later. (This one works even without the much debated Explosive Spell and radius of a 10 mile/level circle)

The locate city bomb trick matter as well be a spell in its own league... The Fell version is more or less a DMs worst nightmare... unless there is a campaign set around a Wizard being a douche enough to use it...

[SirFredgar]

Even the necromantic version doesn't work. Flash Frost requires that the spell you apply it to affect an area, while Locate City merely has an area that it reveals information regarding.

How do you differenciate? Area: (something) in it's spell text was all it needed to have to qualify. Locate City does have an Area entry.

If there is a difference between having an area, and affecting an area, I'd really like to see an example of a spell demonstrating that.

[Darth Stabber]

The locate city bomb trick matter as well be a spell in its own league... The Fell version is more or less a DMs worst nightmare... unless there is a campaign set around a Wizard being a douche enough to use it...

DM's worst nightmare, or DM's awesome plot device?

[Calanon]

DM's worst nightmare, or DM's awesome plot device?

Hmm... could be a little bit of both :smallamused:

:roach: Could be worse! It could be an EXPLOSIVE Fell Draining tactical nuke

[The Mentalist]

Hmm... could be a little bit of both :smallamused:

:roach: Could be worse! It could be an EXPLOSIVE Fell Draining tactical nuke


It's official, Calanon has hacked my computer and is reading my campaign notes.... ABORT! ABORT! ABORT!

[Vegan Zombie]

Whoa thanks for all the quick replies guys! My BBEG in my next campaign is going to use this to Nike a city and start a war :smallbiggrin:

[Calanon]

It's official, Calanon has hacked my computer and is reading my campaign notes.... ABORT! ABORT! ABORT!

Thank god for that blue text >_> a locate city nuclear explosion that would ravage the poor citizens of Ravenholme... Hmm... Orcus is pleased... :smallamused:

[SirFredgar]

Oh yeah, This is why the explosive spell version doesn't work



Exlosive spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area(a cone, cylinder, line or burst).


Circle is not listed.

Your Welcome.

[Hecuba]

Oh yeah, This is why the explosive spell version doesn't work

Circle is not listed.

Your Welcome.

Dang, ninja-ed while I logged in.

But yeah, the issue with explosive spell come down to if you read the given list as exhaustive or not.

It's enough that the general consensus is that there are better options, such as the Fell Drain version. Or Wounding Spell, if you want the low-level NPCs to bleed to death.

[demigodus]

Whoa thanks for all the quick replies guys! My BBEG in my next campaign is going to use this to Nike a city and start a war :smallbiggrin:

Nike a city? Is there a metamagic for making everyone in the area of effect wear a certain brand of shoes?

[SirFredgar]

Dang, ninja-ed while I logged in.

But yeah, the issue with explosive spell come down to if you read the given list as exhaustive or not.

It's enough that the general consensus is that there are better options, such as the Fell Drain version. Or Wounding Spell, if you want the low-level NPCs to bleed to death.

Yes, and they are less feat intensive then going to Energy Addmixture, Explosive Spell, Born of three thunders route.

[Vegan Zombie]

Nike a city? Is there a metamagic for making everyone in the area of effect wear a certain brand of shoes?

The auto correct on my phone decided Nike was more appropriate than nuke I'm afraid

[CodeRed]

Oh yeah, This is why the explosive spell version doesn't work (a cone, cylinder, line or burst).


Circle is not listed.

Your Welcome.

It very may well. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius is the principle in law which states that expression of one thing excludes everything else. Still it is not an absolute. There is room for an argument that the list there is merely for example and not exhaustive or exclusive. Those 4 types of AoEs aren't all of them as circle clearly exists with Locate City. Especially since Cityscape came out two years after Complete Arcane may mean that the authors of CA didn't contemplate the future existence of a different area for spell effects.

[SirFredgar]

It very may well. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius is the principle in law which states that expression of one thing excludes everything else. Still it is not an absolute. There is room for an argument that the list there is merely for example and not exhaustive or exclusive. Those 4 types of AoEs aren't all of them as circle clearly exists with Locate City. Especially since Cityscape came out two years after Complete Arcane may mean that the authors of CA didn't contemplate the future existence of a different area for spell effects.

Yes, you've nailed the fundamentals of the arguement for the camp that still thinks it's explosive spell version works. And never did I state that that a circle wasn't an area, but merely the feat explosive spell specifically calls out those areas.

As you've stated, there is a time difference between the publication of the two sourcebooks so that (maybe) it wasn't accounted for. However, this strays from RAW and into RAI.

I beleive I have given enough evidence to support that Explosive Spell LCB doesn't work by RAW. RAI though, yes, I beleive it should work.

[Madara]

Now if you have an artificer plunk this baby into a wand.. :smallbiggrin: (Could it be eternal wand'ed? Maybe with some meta-magic reducing cheese...)

Too bad its super feat intensive. It'd be fun for an evil PC. As is, just set a party next to something and its as good as toast.

What's the lowest level one could use it?

[Acanous]

Pretty sure Locate City counts as a burst.

[grarrrg]

Nike a city? Is there a metamagic for making everyone in the area of effect wear a certain brand of shoes?

Evil Wizard Plan:
(super-mega-ultra-top-secret HEROS STAY OUT)
Step 1: Acquire many levels of spellcasting class.
Step 2: Use those levels to acquire many Metamagic Feats.
Step 3: Blackmail kingdom(s) with threats of MASS DESHOECTION!
Step 4: If said kingdom(s) do not give in to demands, then cast "Footwear City" spell.
Step 5: ????
Step 6: PROFIT!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Evil Wizard Plan:
(super-mega-ultra-top-secret HEROS STAY OUT)
Step 1: Acquire many levels of spellcasting class.
Step 2: Use those levels to acquire many Metamagic Feats.
Step 3: Blackmail kingdom(s) with threats of MASS DESHOECTION!
Step 4: If said kingdom(s) do not give in to demands, then cast "Footwear City" spell.
Step 5: ????
Step 6: PROFIT!

I know what step 5 is. Offer to buy the excess shoes in bulk and go to a different city and sell the shoes at a lower than normal price (but still greater than what you paid for them). Insta-profit.

[Q'telun]

I may have to convince the spell-caster of a game I'm running to do this. Good thing its an evil campaign, she won't take much convincing.:smallamused:

[Cisturn]

Would anyone here as DMs let your PCs use this? Personally I'd probably use the circle range argument, and bounce everyone inside up half an inch.

[SirFredgar]

Pretty sure Locate City counts as a burst.

I'd say it acts, by spell text, more like a spread. But, still pretty much the same: one turns corners, one doesn't.

Edit: But yeah, I'd allow this. It's a large investment that really only pays off once. I mean: Don't you think you might have a few people come looking for you? And when I mean people, I mean anything and everything with an eye for power. Once those people start catching up to you, I'm sure you'll rue your esoteric feat selection that you had to rely on to accomplish the task.

Also: I allow signifigant amounts of cheese in my games.

[Gurgeh]

Pretty sure Locate City counts as a burst.
And I'm pretty sure that that is a baseless assertion. The Explosive Spell modification is pretty obviously impossible by RAW given that Locate City doesn't have an area defined in the Explosive Spell feat description; given the stated purpose of the Locate City spell, any reasonable DM would also disallow it as RAI. The Fell Draining version is sadly allowable by RAW - it ticks all the boxes.

The real culprit here, of course, is the interaction betwen the Snowcasting and Flash Frost feats. Flash Frost's description implies that it's only supposed to work on spells that already do hit point damage; after all, there aren't any core spells with the cold descriptor that don't already do hit point damage, so the feat doesn't bother to say "only works on things that already do this"; sadly, the PHB2 writers were not sufficiently paranoid in their description, and the mouth-breathers who wrote Frostburn went right ahead and gave people a free ticket to turn any spell into a cold spell, the consequences be damned.

Simple solution is of course to disallow Frostburn - it's a horrible piece of incoherent and frequently self-contradictory rules anyway.

[SirFredgar]

Simple solution is of course to disallow Frostburn - it's a horrible piece of incoherent and frequently self-contradictory rules anyway.

But.... but.... frozen wildshape noooooooooooooooooo

[Acanous]

Isn't there something almost identical except for fire in Sandstorm? Incindiary Spell or somesuch? Disallowing Frostburn means they'd just go the Fire route.

[SirFredgar]

Isn't there something almost identical except for fire in Sandstorm? Incindiary Spell or somesuch? Disallowing Frostburn means they'd just go the Fire route.

I don't think there is a feat that lets you just arbitrarily add the [fire] descriptor to spells in Sandstorm, like there is with [Cold] in frostburn, and that's the linchpin to the whole thing. On top of that, the feat in Sandstorm, Feiry Spell, only adds damage to fire spells that already do damage, instead of adding damage to any [fire] spell.

So banning frostburn does nix any hope for LCB.

[Acanous]

I know I've seen a way to add fire damage to non-damaging spells before. If only I could remember how it worked :p

[Hecuba]

Sandstorm does have Fiery Spell, but that adds flat damage per die of damage done. You have to have rolled damage first to use it.

[SirFredgar]

I know I've seen a way to add fire damage to non-damaging spells before. If only I could remember how it worked :p

Oh! There is Blistering Spell out of PHBII that would add the 2 damage to any [Fire] spell, but still can't find one that adds the [Fire] descriptor. I'm looking though ;)

[Hecuba]

You could get there through admixture or substitution, but unless the base spell has an energy type, you'd still have to go through snow casting.

Edit: Elven Spell Lore from PHBII will let you alter damage energy type if you're a prepared caster, but will not add an energy descriptor.

[zanetheinsane]

My problem with the interpretation of it is that Flash Frost directly states that it deals "an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area."

Locate City (Races of Destiny page 166) does not have any tangible "targets" and has no "Target" entry listed for it's spell description. If you were going to extrapolate somehow that "everyone" was a target, why would you stop there? Why doesn't the spell then deal the damage to every single object as well, since they can be the target of spells, too.

You can't really apply the metamagic which requires targets to a spell that doesn't have any targets.

At the very worst you have to consider that the "target" of the Locate City would be whatever city you locate, but then you have to determine what that even means, if anything.

[Hecuba]

My problem with the interpretation of it is that Flash Frost directly states that it deals "an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area."

Locate City (Races of Destiny page 166) does not have any tangible "targets" and has no "Target" entry listed for it's spell description. If you were going to extrapolate somehow that "everyone" was a target, why would you stop there? Why doesn't the spell then deal the damage to every single object as well, since they can be the target of spells, too.

You can't really apply the metamagic which requires targets to a spell that doesn't have any targets.

At the very worst you have to consider that the "target" of the Locate City would be whatever city you locate, but then you have to determine what that even means, if anything.

Cone of Cold and Ice Storm don't designate targets either. In fact, while I don't doubt that one might exist, I can't think of an area spell that actually explicitly designates people caught in the effect as targets.

By your reading, it would be hard to find a spell where the damage function of Flash frost spell would function at all, much less in the manner required to facilitate the LCB.

Moreover, the linchpin is Snow Casting, not Flash Frost Spell. Blistering spell does not have the deficiency you note, and as noted above would work just fine (if less conveniently) if you use snow casting and energy substitution.

[Morph Bark]

My problem with the interpretation of it is that Flash Frost directly states that it deals "an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area."

Locate City (Races of Destiny page 166) does not have any tangible "targets" and has no "Target" entry listed for it's spell description. If you were going to extrapolate somehow that "everyone" was a target, why would you stop there? Why doesn't the spell then deal the damage to every single object as well, since they can be the target of spells, too.

You can't really apply the metamagic which requires targets to a spell that doesn't have any targets.

At the very worst you have to consider that the "target" of the Locate City would be whatever city you locate, but then you have to determine what that even means, if anything.

At least you can still create the world's biggest ice skating rink.

[Chronos]

Explosive Spell is actually kind of irrelevant. It'll only work on creatures that fail not one but two saving throws, of different sorts, and on a first-level spell, those saves are going to pretty easy. The only things you're going to end up exploding will be very low-level creatures, and those are probably killed just by the initial 2 or 4 damage (and possible Fell Drain) anyway.

Others have already pointed out that the main culprit that makes the bomb possible is the Snowcasting feat, which, like most things from Frostburn, is absurd. Another problem, though, is the Locate City spell itself. It really shouldn't have a listed area of effect at all, just a range.

[Squidfist]

Does it work? Probably.

Does it matter? Nope.

DMs have final say for everything, and just like every other part of D&D, it's up to them to ensure no one is ****ting all over the campaign. Either they think this is cool and allow your mage to nuke a town (probably not a big deal in their campaign), or like me, you think bringing a boring old cookie-cutter exploited build to your table is cause for immediate character death, and you simply drop a dungeon for the rest of your group to explore on the head of this uncreative player.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh! There is Blistering Spell out of PHBII that would add the 2 damage to any [Fire] spell, but still can't find one that adds the [Fire] descriptor. I'm looking though ;)

There's another way to do this:

Blistering Spell + Scorching Spell (still deals damage if opponent is immune to fire) + the spell Slow Burn from SpC. Basically, it's a [Fire] spell, it's got a 30' spread, does not allow SR or save, and has a duration of 1 minute.

Now toss in Fell Drain and find a way to Persist. Every turn, anyone within 30' of you with less than 2hd falls over dead. No save, no SR, just fall over. Now just walk through town.

Best of all, the spell is targetable out to Long range. And it's only a 1st level spell. So you can cover an entire city pretty darn quickly.

[Gurgeh]

Slow Burn is pretty obviously intended to affect fires, not creatures/objects/whatever. RAI will never allow that combo unless your DM is asleep at the wheel (plus, y'know, Sandstorm is just as broken as Frostburn).

[SirFredgar]

Slow Burn is pretty obviously intended to affect fires, not creatures/objects/whatever. RAI will never allow that combo unless your DM is asleep at the wheel (plus, y'know, Sandstorm is just as broken as Frostburn).

Yeah, it's only supposed to work on fires, but blistering spell takes care of that. The real problem here is persisting it. It won't qualify no matter what you do (that I know of), as Ocular requires it be a ray or a targeted spell (It has na area, not a target) and reach requires it be touch range. Because of the Range: Medium, it looks like we're stuck with a 1 (or 2, for extend) minute duration.

Also.... I love Sandstorm, and I haven't seen anything in it that screams broken like Snowcasting or the Shivering Touch spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Slow Burn is pretty obviously intended to affect fires, not creatures/objects/whatever. RAI will never allow that combo unless your DM is asleep at the wheel (plus, y'know, Sandstorm is just as broken as Frostburn).

True, but it never specifically calls out fires as targets. It just doesn't do anything to anyone else. Then you tack on Scorching Spell and Blistering Spell, which automatically deals Fire damage that bypasses immunity to Fire. Now that it deals damage to everyone in the area, they start getting negative levels.

Besides, this is all PhB II/SpC stuff. I don't think anything I've mentioned is, specifically, in Sandstorm.

As far as Persisting it goes, wasn't there a combo that turned a spell into a touch range, then use Reach spell on top of that for a fixed range that Persist would affect? Or, failing that, target yourself so you can Persist it.

Not that it really NEEDS persisting, mind you. After the first round, most of the commoners are dead. Duration is pretty much simply a way to catch stragglers.

[Gurgeh]

I don't know what rulebooks you're looking at, but the only reference I can find to Scorching Spell is that it causes spells to inflict +3 damage per die they roll; I assume you mean Searing Spell? And, y'know, the whole blistering/searing thing is exactly why Sandstorm is just as broken as Frostburn: its descriptions are lazy and allow for this kind of stupid interaction with spells that were clearly not intended to be capable of inflicting damage.

PHB2 assumed that spells with energy descriptors were universally already capable of inflicting hit point damage, so when a new spell comes along that doesn't follow those rules then naive RAW lets you get away with outrageous **** that simply shouldn't be allowed to fly.

So really you're basically in the same situation as you would be with Fell Drain; yes you can construct some logic chains that result in "lol I win D&D", but no DM will ever rule favourably on it (or if they do then they'll hit you right back with equally exploitative combinations, and there's no way you are going to be able to defeat that).

EDIT: So you're persisting a spell that's already got a minimum of two other metamagic feats boosting it, so realistically you're looking at a bare minimum of an eighth-level spell slot. What an efficient use of your spellcasting resources.

[SirFredgar]

True, but it never specifically calls out fires as targets. It just doesn't do anything to anyone else. Then you tack on Scorching Spell and Blistering Spell, which automatically deals Fire damage that bypasses immunity to Fire. Now that it deals damage to everyone in the area, they start getting negative levels.

Besides, this is all PhB II/SpC stuff. I don't think anything I've mentioned is, specifically, in Sandstorm.

As far as Persisting it goes, wasn't there a combo that turned a spell into a touch range, then use Reach spell on top of that for a fixed range that Persist would affect? Or, failing that, target yourself so you can Persist it.

Not that it really NEEDS persisting, mind you. After the first round, most of the commoners are dead. Duration is pretty much simply a way to catch stragglers.

Searing Spell is sandstorm, but that is to bust immunities. Blistering Spell is PHBII, like you said.

Also about persisting it: I've never heard of that trick, but I'll dig around further. I love persist spell, and any shenanigans I can pull with it. Maybe a spellwarp sniper? Can't they turn things that aren't rays into rays... that will then qualify it for Occular treatment, or if it has a fixed range, could be persisted right away? If not, it doesn't matter, like you said.... that's a death sentance to any commoners caught in the immediate area.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't know what rulebooks you're looking at, but the only reference I can find to Scorching Spell is that it causes spells to inflict +3 damage per die they roll; I assume you mean Searing Spell? And, y'know, the whole blistering/searing thing is exactly why Sandstorm is just as broken as Frostburn: its descriptions are lazy and allow for this kind of stupid interaction with spells that were clearly not intended to be capable of inflicting damage.

PHB2 assumed that spells with energy descriptors were universally already capable of inflicting hit point damage, so when a new spell comes along that doesn't follow those rules then naive RAW lets you get away with outrageous **** that simply shouldn't be allowed to fly.

So really you're basically in the same situation as you would be with Fell Drain; yes you can construct some logic chains that result in "lol I win D&D", but no DM will ever rule favourably on it (or if they do then they'll hit you right back with equally exploitative combinations, and there's no way you are going to be able to defeat that).You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.


EDIT: So you're persisting a spell that's already got a minimum of two other metamagic feats boosting it, so realistically you're looking at a bare minimum of an eighth-level spell slot. What an efficient use of your spellcasting resources.

I suppose you've never heard of Metamagic Reduction Techniques? Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus, Incantatrix... trust me, by the time I get done with it, the spell is back to a 1st level spell.

[SirFredgar]

PHB2 assumed that spells with energy descriptors were universally already capable of inflicting hit point damage, so when a new spell comes along that doesn't follow those rules then naive RAW lets you get away with outrageous **** that simply shouldn't be allowed to fly.



If this is your logic, you really should be upset with the PHB II people, as they're the ones that made the Blistering spell feat even though a spell like Slow Burn already existed. Because, get this, the spell existed before the feat.

Sandstorm has nothing to do with it, really.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If this is your logic, you really should be upset with PHB II people, as they're the ones that made the Blistering spell feat even though a spell like Slow Burn already existed. Because, get this, the spell existed before the feat.

Sandstorm has nothing to do with it, really.

And it is nowhere near as powerful, from an adventuring perspective, as a Mailman Build using Orb of Fire + Searing Spell and a whole pile of metamagic feats and ways to mitigate their costs to deal thousands of unresistable damage in a single round.

[SirFredgar]

And it is nowhere near as powerful, from an adventuring perspective, as a Mailman Build using Orb of Fire + Searing Spell and a whole pile of metamagic feats and ways to mitigate their costs to deal thousands of unresistable damage in a single round.

Shneeky, I love you, but shhhhhhhhhh. Searing spell is Sandstorm, and I hate it. Never have I seen any other feat that says "immunities, lol." Uttercold, irrc, comes close... but can be protected simply by laying a Death Ward over your energy immunity.

[Andorax]

Hmm....

Can you take the Explosive Spell version of the city bomb, mix Sanctify Spell in, and just get rid of all the undesirables?

Then can you tie it to a Hallow effect...set it to pulse once an hour or so? Your city may wind up being cold and icy, but it'll be able to keep out all the riff-raff.

[Razgriez]

DM's worst nightmare, or DM's awesome plot device?

(Ab)Used by the players, and the weather will likely change to a 100% chance of falling Rocks/Tarrasque/Lightning Bolts from the sky

Used by the DM: Awesome if used correctly and handled delicately. I've actually contemplated this very idea for an upcoming campaign I'm going to be running, but I've tossed the idea using the Locate City Bomb as a plot device. I feel that it's just too intangible of a threat that some random mage with just relatively short investment of study, has learned how to create a Fantastic nuke to scare everyone, although I can think of a few ideas for how one COULD make it a threat, by drawing upon real world influences. But it brought major issues in my view:
1. Because it's relatively easy to do, compared to other options, it wouldn't make sense then, aside from having objections to using the spell or writing on a piece of parchment in the game world that it's a "Forbidden Spell" of some kind, that any mage wouldn't have it. And frankly, I wouldn't want my players using it, and then turn around and say only my Villains have access to an easy to produce effect.
2. Frankly, I rather not imbalance the nature Warriors versus Mages any further than it is.
3. As stated. if I implement a Doomsdays device, I want it to be something a bit more tangible then a couple of meta magic feats and a spell away from doom. 9th level/Epic level spells, I'm fine with. Artifacts, I'm fine with. A incredibly powerful enchanted item/weapon, that if you were to take modern day combat ideas, and apply it to a fantasy realm, that it could take the place of a tank's main gun, missiles/rockets/bombs from a jet fighter or bomber. or something that feels would be right at home sitting in an ICBM tube on a submarine as a proper analogue? Awesome. (For example, a Cross bow, including Repeating and/or Heavy types enchanted with the Explosive ability from CW I find, make a useful weapon to make a fantasy medieval crossbow soldier the equivalent role of a modern day military's squad grenade launcher expert. and thanks to it being a projectile weapon, just give a case/magazine of certain enchanted/built ammo to add additional effects as needed.)

[SirFredgar]

Hmm....

Can you take the Explosive Spell version of the city bomb, mix Sanctify Spell in, and just get rid of all the undesirables?

Then can you tie it to a Hallow effect...set it to pulse once an hour or so? Your city may wind up being cold and icy, but it'll be able to keep out all the riff-raff.

Is that Purify Spell from BoED? That hits Neutrals too... and wouldn't using this spell to eradicate all of them be pretty evil, thereby make you one of the "riff-raff"?

[Darth Stabber]

Hmm....

Can you take the Explosive Spell version of the city bomb, mix Sanctify Spell in, and just get rid of all the undesirables?

Then can you tie it to a Hallow effect...set it to pulse once an hour or so? Your city may wind up being cold and icy, but it'll be able to keep out all the riff-raff.

Welcome to the Tippyverse: Leave it Beaver edition.

[Calanon]

Is that Purify Spell from BoED? That hits Neutrals too...

Hey! its there fault! The state requires them to be Lawful Good... Or else :smalltongue:


wouldn't using this spell to eradicate all of them be pretty evil, thereby make you one of the "riff-raff"?

...I fail to see your point :smallconfused: Sometimes to be truly good you must be evil :smallamused:

[Darth Stabber]

Is that Purify Spell from BoED? That hits Neutrals too... and wouldn't using this spell to eradicate all of them be pretty evil, thereby make you one of the "riff-raff"?

So set it up, fall, get the heck out town.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneeky, I love you, but shhhhhhhhhh. Searing spell is Sandstorm, and I hate it. Never have I seen any other feat that says "immunities, lol." Uttercold, irrc, comes close... but can be protected simply by laying a Death Ward over your energy immunity.

Oh, I take it you haven't seen Sanctify Spell yet? Pretty much pulls a Flame Strike on anything you want to toss around. Did you know that there is no way to get Resistance or Immunity to Positive Energy damage?

[Kogak]

Oh, I take it you haven't seen Sanctify Spell yet? Pretty much pulls a Flame Strike on anything you want to toss around. Did you know that there is no way to get Resistance or Immunity to Positive Energy damage?

There is a ring of positive energy resistance, if I recall correctly. I think it may be in LM or MIC, but I cannot recall as I am away from books at the moment. Undead are also able to get Positive Energy Resist: 10 I believe with a feat.

[Calanon]

There is a ring of positive energy resistance, if I recall correctly. I think it may be in LM or MIC, but I cannot recall as I am away from books at the moment. Undead are also able to get Positive Energy Resist: 10 I believe with a feat.

Its in the MIC.

[SirFredgar]

Oh, I take it you haven't seen Sanctify Spell yet? Pretty much pulls a Flame Strike on anything you want to toss around. Did you know that there is no way to get Resistance or Immunity to Positive Energy damage?

Um. . . Lifeward, Cleric 4th? Spell compendium I believe.

[Andorax]

Ok...meant Purify, not Sanctify....and presumably with enough advance notice posted, it would be their bad to stick around. But yes, it's definately pulling a "Kingpriest of Krynn" kind of good.

[Dausuul]

Yes, you've nailed the fundamentals of the arguement for the camp that still thinks it's explosive spell version works. And never did I state that that a circle wasn't an area, but merely the feat explosive spell specifically calls out those areas.

As you've stated, there is a time difference between the publication of the two sourcebooks so that (maybe) it wasn't accounted for. However, this strays from RAW and into RAI.

I beleive I have given enough evidence to support that Explosive Spell LCB doesn't work by RAW. RAI though, yes, I beleive it should work.

Rules As Intended, it should absolutely not work. I am quite confident in saying Locate City was never intended as a nuclear weapon.

[Kerilstrasz]

Why do ppl say that Locate city is a circle radius effect? spell's description doesnt clarify this... you can easily assume that s a sphere or a burst since there are underground cities,cities on top of a high mountain or even cities that fly above ground(either moving or stationary on plats supported by immovable rods)...
the actual problem is smthing else... if the caster doesnt succed on his ref save...
since he is just at the centre does the spell shutter him to pieces shuntin em to all dirrections or he is in "the eye of the storm" unaffected?

[Duke of URL]

I call shenanigans on the whole debate. None of the "locate city bomb" tricks work by RAW (or RAI, or common sense, or whatever the criteria in fashion today is) because the spell has no targets, it only has an effect, which is to find the distance and direction to a city of specified size or greater within the spell's range.

Just because the spell has a range does not mean it affects any creatures within range of the spell. If you want to be completely pedantic about it, I suppose, the spell has a single target: you, the caster, because you are the one who receives information. It's an unfounded assumption to believe that a creature inside a spell's range is affected by it if the spell does not state that they are.

Since Flash Frost Spell requires a base spell that affects an area, and locate city does not, the rest of the trick fails right there, as that's the lynchpin of the entire sequence.

[Urpriest]

I call shenanigans on the whole debate. None of the "locate city bomb" tricks work by RAW (or RAI, or common sense, or whatever the criteria in fashion today is) because the spell has no targets, it only has an effect, which is to find the distance and direction to a city of specified size or greater within the spell's range.

Just because the spell has a range does not mean it affects any creatures within range of the spell. If you want to be completely pedantic about it, I suppose, the spell has a single target: you, the caster, because you are the one who receives information. It's an unfounded assumption to believe that a creature inside a spell's range is affected by it if the spell does not state that they are.

Since Flash Frost Spell requires a base spell that affects an area, and locate city does not, the rest of the trick fails right there, as that's the lynchpin of the entire sequence.

If you apply that ruling, you'll find that Flast Frost Spell doesn't work on its intended applications either. Cone of Cold has no targets.

[Duke of URL]

If you apply that ruling, you'll find that Flast Frost Spell doesn't work on its intended applications either. Cone of Cold has no targets.

No, sorry, not buying the comparison. Cone of cold explicitly affects things in its cone-shaped area, dealing damage. What are the explicit effects to a creature of locate city?

Put another way... I'm some random goblin located 8 miles away. You cast locate city by itself. I am in range of the spell. How am I affected? I'm not, and no metamagic effect added changes that.

Conversely, look at the case where I'm inside the 60' cone area of of cone of cold. How am I affected then? Oh yeah, it's right there in the spell description: 1d6 cold damage (max 15d6), reflex 1/2.

You're falling into the same invalid assumption I pointed out originally -- merely being within range of a spell does not mean you're affected by it. If the spell doesn't have an affected area, it's not possible to apply Flash Frost Spell to it. Locate city has no affect on creatures, and there's no way to read the spell to say that it does, except the invalid conflation of spell range vs. area of effect.

Edit to add: not to mention, the whole comparison to cone of cold not having targets is spurious. It's area of effect is a cone-shaped burst, and reading the "area" portion in how to read spell descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) covers how cone and burst combine to define targets affected.