Undead Barbarians

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, I MAY have killed off one of my player's characters (again).

But the fact is, he's a Champion of Gwynharwyf (I know I misspelled that, let's just ignore that fact). He died holding off an Advanced Purple Worm so his party could escape with the MacGuffin to cure a plague.

He was interested in continuing to play his character, but instead asked if he could come back as a Risen Martyr (BoED). He was planning on taking it to about third level, apparently, before finishing of CoG.

Now, here's the question - How long would his rage last if he came back as a deathless? Rage usually lasts 3+Con rounds, but he has no Con score anymore. RAW, can I give him his rage back at 3+Cha rounds, as undead tend to use Cha to replace Con pretty often.

Thoughts?

[Jasdoif]

RAW, he could still rage. The ability score modifier for a nonability is 0, so he could rage for 3 rounds.

[Studoku]

While there's no RAW that lets undead use their cha score instead of their non-existant con in this situation, you're the DM. If you want to allow this- I can't imagine it being overpowered- go for it.

If not, the rage lasts for 3 + 0 rounds.

[ericgrau]

He's also immune to fatigue and the first 3 rounds of a fight easily matter the most, so it's not as bad as you might think.

I'd give him 3 rounds of rage for free. Then also homebrew a feat that let's him replace con with cha for the rage duration. I might even include in that feat something that gives him 2 HP per HD which disappear when the rage is over. 3 with greater rage and 4 with mighty rage. Add that same number to the rage duration on top of the cha mod, so it works similar to boosted con and doesn't totally shaft him if his cha is so-so. Though I'd suggest letting him play a couple fights without the feat because he'll be surprised how well he can manage even without it. Other important feats might have a higher priority.

[Taffimai]

If he never intended to go undead, then his charisma is probably low, so it might be harsh to do that. You could pick a different stat, if he has one that he kept at a similar level as his con, or you could make it a roll every time he rages. A concentration check, for example, and treat the result as his temporary constitution (so a roll of 16 gives +3 rounds of rage).

[Lucid]

Since he is a Champion of Gwynharwyf (actually you spelled that correct) I assume his charisma is above average to take advantage of divine grace and the intimidate synergy. Also Risen Martyr would raise his charisma by 2.

I'd say it wouldn't be unfair to let him use it for his rage, or as ericgrau suggested to create a feat that let's him use it.

By RAW you can't actually get out of Risen Martyr once you start it, you're forced to take all 10 (not that great) levels and then you die (again). Seeing as you're the DM I'd just let the player take the first three levels and then continue CoG.

The whole setup is an awesome idea imo, and can make for great roleplaying.:smallwink:

[Ravens_cry]

You know, this reminds me of a quote involving that lovable bag o' bones, the Death of Discworld:
"Anger was an emotion, and emotions required glands, and Death didn't have much truck with glands and needed a good run at it to get angry."

[Kuulvheysoon]

Since he is a Champion of Gwynharwyf (actually you spelled that correct) I assume his charisma is above average to take advantage of divine grace and the intimidate synergy. Also Risen Martyr would raise his charisma by 2.

I'd say it wouldn't be unfair to let him use it for his rage, or as has ericgrau suggested to create a feat that let's him use it.

By RAW you can't actually get out of Risen Martyr once you start it, you're forced to take all 10 (not that great) levels and then you die (again). Seeing as you're the DM I'd just let the player take the first three levels and then continue CoG.

The whole setup is an awesome idea imo, and can make for great roleplaying.:smallwink:

Yeah, he planned on going CoG from the start, so he's got decent Cha (and I'm letting him trade in his +Con item for a +Cha item), and he's got more than a few Intimidate toys to play around with.

I never notied that bit about not being able to exit the class - seems pretty restrictive, so I'll probably let him exit after taking at least 3/4 levels of it.

I'll try him out at just 3 rounds of Rage and see how that goes - failing that, I'll either let him add Cha straight up, or let him retrain a feat or two into the homebrew'd feat.

And he's one of my two best RPers - I'd be disappointed if he left.

Also, Raven's Cry, +1 for the Discworld quote.

[Anderlith]

The way I see it, he can rage indefinitely. The whole rage rules work as a simulation of tiring out after pushing your body to perform better. If you don't tire you don't stop

[Dimers]

You know, this reminds me of a quote involving that lovable bag o' bones, the Death of Discworld:
"Anger was an emotion, and emotions required glands, and Death didn't have much truck with glands and needed a good run at it to get angry."

As it happens, he won't get the usual +2 to Will saves, because it's a morale bonus and undead are immune to morale effects.

[KillianHawkeye]

There's a feat that increases the duration of your rage. I think it adds 5 rounds, if I'm remembering correctly.

[Acanous]

I thought only mindless undead were immune to morale effects.
Yes, Risen Martyr is a very restrictive class. Buuut you have 10 levels of it to get Ressurrected, and then you're no worse off than before. You just retrain for more CoG levels. Bam, done. You get to keep adventuring even though you died, and all it costs you is a few dead levels until you can affoard to rez yourself.

[Jeraa]

I thought only mindless undead were immune to morale effects.


Nope. All undead. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)


Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

[Ravens_cry]

Well, he's immune to many things that tend to require will saves, so it's a wash at worst, and arguably he comes out ahead.

[Jigokuro]

Well that is funny; in my current campaign I'm an undead that generates an aura of moral bonuses to a bunch of things. Weird that I'd ignore my own being-inspirational-ness.

[Kogak]

It is worth noting that the official FAQs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) are at complete odds on this particular point. The earlier one states undead use charisma modifiers on previous abilities requiring constitution. Another later states undead rage for 3 rounds given a non-ability score. I think the Main FAQ state the previous and the 3.5 states the later, so possibly a change from 3.0 to 3.5?