Why did the one ring grant invisibility?

[Traab]

Is that ever covered in any of the stories or authors notes or whatever? It just seems odd to me. This ring is basically the source of saurons power. It is his anchor to the world (from what ive gathered, I may be wrong) So whats the deal with invisibility? It seems an oddly random power for an ultimate ring of ultimate power to have as a standard effect.

Also, am I right in assuming that frodo claiming the ring would have lead to some sort of spiritual struggle between him and sauron to see who would be its master? What would have happened if frodo had against all odds won the fight? Would sauron have died, and his power been granted to frodo? Would the ring lose its power because its creator is now truly dead and gone? Would sauron be enslaved to frodos will? What effect would there have been on frodo if he lost? Would he have just died after being tortured for countless years for daring to attempt to defy the will of sauron? Would he have become some sort of super wraith? Perhaps to replace the witch king who got face stabbed by a girl? After all, the nazgul were created by the 9 lesser rings granted to them by sauron, frodo was reeled in by the one ring itself.

Damn, thats actually a lot of questions about the ring and its effects.

[Pokonic]

Think of the Ring like a phlycery, and Sauron as a uber-lich. The Ring holds his essance, and someone who would submit it could only realy fight off him for a bit. It wants to be found, and the invisablity makes it easier for it to not, say, fall in a ravine. Hard for a wearer to die, you see. It gives the wearers invisiblity so that it makes it to Sauron, realy.

[Gnoman]

The ring drew the wearer into the wraith world. That's what happened to the Nazgul. They used their rings so much that they were drawn in permanantly and became wraithjs completey.

[tyckspoon]

Is that ever covered in any of the stories or authors notes or whatever? It just seems odd to me. This ring is basically the source of saurons power. It is his anchor to the world (from what ive gathered, I may be wrong) So whats the deal with invisibility? It seems an oddly random power for an ultimate ring of ultimate power to have as a standard effect.

As I understand it, the Ring was originally just an invisibility ring in The Hobbit; that story wasn't written with intent to tie it into the greater Lord of the Rings mythology when he first told it/wrote it down. So when Bilbo's adventure became officially part of the Lord of the Rings history and his invisibility ring became The One Ring, well, it had to keep the invisibility power, because Tolkien had already said it did that and he couldn't/wouldn't do a retcon big enough to change that. So he came up with an explanation for *how* it makes you invisible and added that to the canon instead.


Also, am I right in assuming that frodo claiming the ring would have lead to some sort of spiritual struggle between him and sauron to see who would be its master? What would have happened if frodo had against all odds won the fight? Would sauron have died, and his power been granted to frodo?

The Ring is both the source and anchor of Sauron's power. If somebody else was able to wrench mastery of it from Sauron (and IIRC, Gandalf and the elf lords/ladies both claimed that they could potentially have done so), he.. wouldn't die, exactly, but he'd be rendered impotent. He'd go from the great Evil of that Age to, like, an ill-tempered ghost that could make really susceptible people think mean thoughts. (And meanwhile the Ring would continue to tempt its new owner to use more and more power for more and more selfish ends until the bearer arose as the next great tyrant, which is why it's a good thing that those beings who were powerful enough to claim the Ring were also wise enough to know that would be a Bad Idea.)

[NikitaDarkstar]

I think the invisibility thing is there both for self preservation and for the wearer to want to keep it with them. Invisibility is a very handy thing to have and if you have a ring that gives you invisibility you're more likely to keep it around. Of course the ring also corrupts by it's mere presence and the longer you're around it the more likely you are to fall under it's influence and take it where it wants to go.

As for Frodo managing to dominate it in a battle of will? I suppose Sauron would be left fairly powerless if that happened, not dead (can he even actually die?), but powerless, and I suppose it's possible Frodo would gain control over it's power, no idea what mental state it would leave him in though. If he lost? Well Smeagol used to be a hobbit, then he found the ring, do we really need to say more? (And I honestly think that's a best case scenario, worst case most likely is something similar to the wraiths.)

[VeliciaL]

The ring drew the wearer into the wraith world. That's what happened to the Nazgul. They used their rings so much that they were drawn in permanantly and became wraithjs completey.

This was my recollection as well. That's why the ringwraiths were still able to see Frodo while he wore the ring, and he could see the ringwraiths' proper bodies.

[Ravens_cry]

The only way to weild it would be, and I quote "become Sauron."
Ones intentions could be as shriven as fresh snow, yet it would twist those ambitions and hopes into an ultimate evil. That is why it was most dangerous in the hands of the powerful, those with the best and mightiest ambitions, and why Humans are so sorely tempted by it.

[Anarion]

The invisibility is also part of the fact that ring seems to grant its wearer power relative to their existing power. A great wizard or elf lord wielding it could exert control over others and eventually become the next Sauron. Sauron wielding it would have the power to conquer all of Middle Earth and break the wills of those who would oppose him.

But a simple hobbit? They're a people who are good at hiding. So the ring makes them even better.

[Ravens_cry]

There is that. The only people we actually see wear it were, or once were, hobbits.

[Starscream]

Clearly Sauron used the Item Creation Rules to add additional enchantments to an already existing magic item.

You only have two body slots for rings, and the other was already being used for his Improved Ring of Swimming (he wears Full Plate and doesn't have any cross class swimming ranks, and it'd be ridiculous for a Dark Lord to be killed by his Armor Check Penalty).

So when he decided to make "One Ring To Rule Them All" (man, the Epic Level rules are so broken), it made sense to take his old Ring of Invisibility and upgrade it. The DM allowed it because "One Periapt To Rule Them All" sounded silly.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Is that ever covered in any of the stories or authors notes or whatever? It just seems odd to me. This ring is basically the source of saurons power. It is his anchor to the world (from what ive gathered, I may be wrong) So whats the deal with invisibility? It seems an oddly random power for an ultimate ring of ultimate power to have as a standard effect.
I would claim invisibility is anything but standard. It may seem weak from our 'magick is powerful' sort of reference but you have to think of magic in a folk-lore sort of way. Magic is any effect that does things no other person can; there was really no 'scale' to how amazing the effect was. Invisibility is amazingly powerful.


Also, am I right in assuming that frodo claiming the ring would have lead to some sort of spiritual struggle between him and sauron to see who would be its master? What would have happened if frodo had against all odds won the fight? Would sauron have died, and his power been granted to frodo? Would the ring lose its power because its creator is now truly dead and gone? Would sauron be enslaved to frodos will? What effect would there have been on frodo if he lost? Would he have just died after being tortured for countless years for daring to attempt to defy the will of sauron? Would he have become some sort of super wraith? Perhaps to replace the witch king who got face stabbed by a girl? After all, the nazgul were created by the 9 lesser rings granted to them by sauron, frodo was reeled in by the one ring itself.
I don't really get where you're getting the power struggle from. I don't think there was any such thing as winning. There was simply succumbing or not succumbing. By succumbing he becomes corrupt and under Sauron's rule, by not succumbing he's still in control of his own actions. The longer he held the ring the harder it became to keep in control. But in the end Frodo could never win indefinitely.

[Weezer]

There is that. The only people we actually see wear it were, or once were, hobbits.

Actually, doesn't it explicitly turn Isildur invisible when he is attempting to escape in the Gladden Fields?

[WalkingTarget]

Tolkien went through a "what if?" scenario in a Letter about what might have happened if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from Frodo at the end.

The Nazgul would have shown up and try to talk him out of the cave/away from the Crack of Doom - calling him "master" and whatnot, but since Sauron held their Rings he held their wills as well. Frodo would have had the One, and they would have been unable to attack him, but they could distract him and keep him away from the Fire long enough for Sauron to show up and take the Ring back for himself - and there is absolutely no chance that Frodo would have been able to deny him; he's simply not strong enough to be able to do so, no mortal would be. This goes into what others have been saying about having to be great in personal "power" before being able to "become Sauron" and truly claim the One for oneself.

As for the invisibility, it's worth noting that it's not strictly the "wraith world", it's more of a general "spirit world" - remember how Glorfindel looked at the Ford of Bruinen: a shining figure. Elves (particularly the High Elves) existed in both worlds at once. The description of why we don't see elves around these days is twofold: many left for Valinor again, but others have simply "faded" as they grew weary of the world, which I like to think of as a transition similar to what happened to the Nazgul, only related to their natural state rather than the artificial imposition of the Rings. All of the Rings that were recovered by Sauron during the 2nd Age (i.e. all but the Three) were altered to include the invisibility-->fading-->wraith thing, it just didn't work on the dwarves, theoretically due to their different metaphysical origin/qualities as creations of Aule rather than of Eru directly.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, doesn't it explicitly turn Isildur invisible when he is attempting to escape in the Gladden Fields?
D'oh, my mistake. I guess invisibility (or more accurately a kind of dimensional shift to an overlying plane of existence) is an intrinsic property.

[WalkingTarget]

D'oh, my mistake. I guess invisibility (or more accurately a kind of dimensional shift to an overlying plane of existence) is an intrinsic property.

Another note from a Letter was along the lines of the Rings invisibility-granting powers was controllable by those with sufficient understanding of them (i.e. the Nazgul before becoming wraiths could use them to become invisible at will at first, before it became permanent). One could assume a similar situation with the One, although I'd imagine that it'd be more difficult to "master" it.

[Tiktakkat]

You only have two body slots for rings, and the other was already being used for his Improved Ring of Swimming (he wears Full Plate and doesn't have any cross class swimming ranks, and it'd be ridiculous for a Dark Lord to be killed by his Armor Check Penalty).

:smallamused:

Yes, clearly something like that could never happen, so he must have had a Ring of Swimming.

One thing though:
How did he get the Extra Ring feat so many times so he could wear all 9 Rings of the Nazgul later on?

[Jeraa]

He made the rings slotless items. Its only double the cost.

[factotum]

Frodo would have had the One, and they would have been unable to attack him

You mean, in the same way they totally weren't able to attack him on Weathertop? One wonders if Professor Tolkien actually read his own book... :smallwink:

[Saph]

The invisibility is also part of the fact that ring seems to grant its wearer power relative to their existing power. A great wizard or elf lord wielding it could exert control over others and eventually become the next Sauron. Sauron wielding it would have the power to conquer all of Middle Earth and break the wills of those who would oppose him.

But a simple hobbit? They're a people who are good at hiding. So the ring makes them even better.

I always liked that explanation best: the power the ring gives depends on who's wielding it. Though it's hard to fit that in with the fact that it also gave invisibility to Isildur (who seemed to be more the proud-warrior type rather than a stealthy hobbit).

I guess thinking of it as an aspect of the ring's connection to the spirit world makes more sense.

[Feytalist]

Suffice to say its powers were never fully explored. The story wasn't about the bling. Nothing Tolkien ever wrote was. It was about the characters.

That's why Lord of the Rings would make a horrible RPG. As we saw with DM of the Rings.

[Saph]

Suffice to say its powers were never fully explored. The story wasn't about the bling. Nothing Tolkien ever wrote was. It was about the characters.

That's why Lord of the Rings would make a horrible RPG. As we saw with DM of the Rings.

Well, the new system, The One Ring, is supposed to be pretty good. Haven't had a chance to try it yet though.

[dehro]

I'm thinking that even the great ones who had the power to wrest control of the ring off Sauron would ultimately have become addicted to the ring and subjected to its malice and power. Since Sauron cannot really die, and his existence is tied with the continuous existence of the ring, this would mean that even the most powerful of the great ones (I'm going with Gandalf here) would ultimately become so dependent on the ring and so ... personally weak, that he'd become unable to resist Sauron once he came back, at the tipping of the balance of power in favour of the ring,.. to claim his possession and powers.
also, let's not forget that the ring also has the ability to abbandon those it has no use left for. it simply slid from Isildur's finger (and we're meant to understand that this is a deliberate act from the ring)..when it saw an opportunity to fall in his master's servants hands.
Gandalf would become the ubermaster of everything, turn evil/mad/psycho.. become less potent in willpower and more of a shell of himself. The ring carries it's own reserve of willpower. When you put it you're fighting the ring itself too, it's not just channeling the part of Sauron that isn't in the ring itself. If that wasn't the case, at the moment of Sauron's weakest state of being (right after he lost the ring) Isildur would have been able to stay in control of himself if not the ring.
Once the ring has eroded enough of Gandalf's willpower and personal magic, he can start subjugating him to itself..and indirectly to Sauron, who, diminished as he may be, would still be around and would end up finding a backdoor through wich to seep back into the world and start building up enough power to walk up to what's left of Gandalf, slap him in the face and get his ring back.
It may take eons, but Sauron can wait...and it would be the inevitable conclusion.

[tensai_oni]

Invisibility is the classic corrupting power. Even more so than immortality. It means you are not accountable for your actions, because no one can see and judge you. So you can do whatever you want with no obvious consequences. See also Wells' the Invisible Man.

[Saph]

Invisibility is the classic corrupting power. Even more so than immortality. It means you are not accountable for your actions, because no one can see and judge you. So you can do whatever you want with no obvious consequences. See also Wells' the Invisible Man.

Ooh, that's a good one. It would go way back past Wells, all the way to Plato's Ring of Gyges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Gyges), which was used specifically as an example of power leading to corruption. So that actually makes complete sense.

[Brother Oni]

Invisibility is the classic corrupting power. Even more so than immortality. It means you are not accountable for your actions, because no one can see and judge you. So you can do whatever you want with no obvious consequences. See also Wells' the Invisible Man.

I think the Kevin Bacon remake Hollow Man said it best "It's amazing what you can do, when you don't have to look at yourself in the mirror".

That line is about the best thing to come out of the movie.

[WalkingTarget]

You mean, in the same way they totally weren't able to attack him on Weathertop? One wonders if Professor Tolkien actually read his own book... :smallwink:

Addressed: on Weathertop he hadn't claimed it as his own. :smalltongue:

*goes and finds the relevant passage in the letters*

"Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand."

That's from Letter 246, one of the more interesting ones when discussing points from LotR. It also includes the bit about what happens if others claim the Ring about a page later:

"Its result [a confrontation between Frodo and Sauron] was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave... In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn... Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being en emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form... it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond... Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position... If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end."

Emphasis mine, but it shows that Gandalf (or maybe other Maia, like Saruman who had long studied Ring-lore) could have a personal showdown and simply wrest control of the One from Sauron which, from Sauron's perspective, would have the same result as destroying it. The implication for others, Elrond and Galadriel, is that they could claim it, but would have to put together their own empires to go deal with Sauron - I suppose the implication being that they could get close to taking control, but would have to put the beatdown on Sauron again to weaken him enough so that they could truly claim the Ring, it's not clear on that point.

[Raimun]

Clearly Sauron used the Item Creation Rules to add additional enchantments to an already existing magic item.

You only have two body slots for rings, and the other was already being used for his Improved Ring of Swimming (he wears Full Plate and doesn't have any cross class swimming ranks, and it'd be ridiculous for a Dark Lord to be killed by his Armor Check Penalty).


Sounds legit. As we all know, water related weaknesses are the most weaksauce weaknesses (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeaksauceWeakness) of them all.

[Jahkaivah]

I might be wrong about this, but I always got the impression that the ring was originally just a magic ring of invisibility during The Hobbit. And it had gotten retconned into this tool of great evil during Lord of the Rings.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah. Becoming Invisible isn't a powerup, it's the ring sucking your physical form right out of existence because you're too weak to resist. If someone competent had put the ring on, they wouldn't have gone invisible- They'd have actually been able to use its power.

Using the "power" of invisibility is like taking advantage of the fact that after the dragon swallows you whole, no one can find you and you can travel many leagues in a relatively short time (before safely exiting via the rear.) You're not getting anything like the actual benefits of owning a dragon and terrorizing the countryside.

[Skavensrule]

Actually, doesn't it explicitly turn Isildur invisible when he is attempting to escape in the Gladden Fields?

Tom Bombadil wears the ring in "The Fellowship" without turning invisible. He is never fully explained even in "Unfinished Tales" exactly what he is but it is hinted that he is one of the Valar. The elder races such as the Ainur (Gandalf and Sauron), the elves, and the dwarves were not turned invisible either. Now except for Sauron no non-mortals ever wore his ring so the rings of the dwarves and elves may have simply not had that ability. We also never see an elven ring worn by a mortal or a dwarven ring worn by anyone but a dwarf (and then only by accounts).

[hamishspence]

Tom Bombadil wears the ring in "The Fellowship" without turning invisible. He is never fully explained even in "Unfinished Tales" exactly what he is but it is hinted that he is one of the Valar.

What was the hint? I seem to recall one of Tolkien's letters saying he wasn't intended to be explainable, but a mystery- and that he definitely wasn't Iluvatar.

[WalkingTarget]

What was the hint? I seem to recall one of Tolkien's letters saying he wasn't intended to be explainable, but a mystery- and that he definitely wasn't Iluvatar.

Reposting from an earlier discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6471453&postcount=123) about Bombadil - the first quote tells of his literary origin, the fourth is about his ambiguity with regards to LotR, the second is telling on why the Ring doesn't make him invisible.
------------------------

From Tolkien's letters:

"Tom Bombadil is not an important person — to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment.' I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in The Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function."

"I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless..."

"It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war… the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron."

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

The second quote there is my personal take on his importance in the books. He's not there for narrative reasons to move the story along. He's there to show that the Ring, something that's entire purpose is to exert control over others, is itself powerless over one who finds no value in control. This is similar, I think, in why hobbits were the best stewards of the Ring in the quest. They are, for the most part, content with the simple things in life. They're not up there in the renounce-all-things territory, but they're closer to it than men or elves or dwarves (which is, frankly, why I think it's important for Bombadil's nature to be a mystery).

The nature of his characterization (all the hopping around and singing and whatnot) is a stylistic thing that was carried over from his earlier appearances and I understand that this in itself is grating for some people.

[Weezer]

What Walking Target said is right on the money. Bombadil doesn't fit into the rest of the Middle Earth mythos on purpose, he is less above it than beside it, he just can't be used as an example of how the ring would effect non-mortals, because he is essentially unique.

[dehro]

I've always considered tom bombadil to be a cameo of Tolkien himself. he may have said no, or explicitly declared Bombadil an intentional mistery, but I still prefer my idea.

[Kato]

The invisibility is also part of the fact that ring seems to grant its wearer power relative to their existing power. A great wizard or elf lord wielding it could exert control over others and eventually become the next Sauron. Sauron wielding it would have the power to conquer all of Middle Earth and break the wills of those who would oppose him.

But a simple hobbit? They're a people who are good at hiding. So the ring makes them even better.

That's what I always figured but then again there was the bit with Isildur... Maybe, I dare say... it was sloppy writing from Tolkien's side?

I guess invisibility being handy would be a good idea, or the phase shift or whatever, but there were just the instances when the one ring did not make it's wearer invisible, like with Tom...

Yeah, to be honest, I'd say Tolkien didn't put that much thought into it.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm sure he put a lot of thought into it, just not the thoughts we are thinking.
A ring of invisibility is a classic magic item.
Plato, for example, wrote about a legendary one called "The Ring of Gyges" as a thought experiment about what a man would do if he could do certain things without consequence, how it would affect ones moral character.

[hamishspence]

When Gandalf's describing the "Great Rings" and how they are "perilous" turning invisible and thus getting closer to fading, is one of the things he mentions.

So it isn't just a property of the One.

[Elder Tsofu]

Using the "power" of invisibility is like taking advantage of the fact that after the dragon swallows you whole, no one can find you and you can travel many leagues in a relatively short time (before safely exiting via the rear.) You're not getting anything like the actual benefits of owning a dragon and terrorizing the countryside.

I like this explanation, it feels correct and the logic is easy to grasp. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

That's what I always figured but then again there was the bit with Isildur... Maybe, I dare say... it was sloppy writing from Tolkien's side?

I guess invisibility being handy would be a good idea, or the phase shift or whatever, but there were just the instances when the one ring did not make it's wearer invisible, like with Tom...

Yeah, to be honest, I'd say Tolkien didn't put that much thought into it.

Well, it has no power over Tom so it obviously cannot shift him. I don't really see any inconsistency here; Ring shifts those that cannot control it but those it can exert power over it.

[hamlet]

That's what I always figured but then again there was the bit with Isildur... Maybe, I dare say... it was sloppy writing from Tolkien's side?

I guess invisibility being handy would be a good idea, or the phase shift or whatever, but there were just the instances when the one ring did not make it's wearer invisible, like with Tom...

Yeah, to be honest, I'd say Tolkien didn't put that much thought into it.

I'd always assumed that Isildur, knowing what the Ring was (at least in principle) and having explicitely laid claim to it, was able by dint of whatever personal power was in him, to make use of the power to fade from sight. Isildur is not yer average fellow. He's greater than that, even if he fell. Greater than Aragorn, certainly.

[hamishspence]

I think it might have something to do with mortals- immortals like the elves and Gandalf don't become invisible when wearing their Rings- if Tom is an Immortal he may have the same trait.

In Unfinished Tales, immediately before the orcs attack- Isildur's son asks him if he cannot use the Ring to cow the orcs "Is it of no avail?"- and he says-

"Alas, it is not. I cannot use it.- I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

Eventually Isildur's son insists (late in the battle) that he use the Ring to flee, and deliver it to the Keepers at all costs- and Isildur tries to do so- putting the ring on his finger "with a cry of pain".

Interestingly the Ring fails to hide the bright gem on Isildur's crown, before he draws a hood up over it.

[hamlet]

Never read Unfinished Tales, so can't have known about that passage.

Huh.

[Eldariel]

I think it might have something to do with mortals- immortals like the elves and Gandalf don't become invisible when wearing their Rings- if Tom is an Immortal he may have the same trait.

Well, the three rings are ones Sauron never touched and as such, probably don't turn you ethereal in the first place. Also, elf lords and ainur, far as I know, already have the dual existence so I guess they really couldn't shift anyways since they are there already?

Isn't it plainly stated in the book that the Ring is simply powerless with regards to Tom? Like, he can see Frodo sneaking away with the Ring in his finger too. And the Ring does nothing to him. Since Frodo saw nothing special, I'd assume Tom doesn't have that kind of a dual existence but simply is unaffected by anything originating from the ring.

[factotum]

Isn't it plainly stated in the book that the Ring is simply powerless with regards to Tom?

From memory, when they're discussing the disposal of the Ring at the Council of Elrond, someone suggests sending it to Tom Bombadil because he has power over it; Elrond corrects that, saying that it isn't that Tom has power over the Ring, it's that the Ring has no power over *him*. I think he goes on to explain that Tom has no desire for power, which is why the Ring's evil doesn't influence him either.

[dehro]

we've actually seen at least 2 of the 3 rings in action...
elrond wears one, but we only know about it because we're told. Galadriel wears one and only Frodo seems to notice or to see it in action (maybe because he's a ring-bearer, maybe because the ring actually "does something" when galadriel is being tempted to take the one ring...). Gandalf wears the third one and, from memory, this becomes visibly apparent when he brings new life in the heart of Theoden.
I'd say that none of these 3 ring-bearers are in any way "ethereal"..though I'm not sure what you mean by it.. the rings however seem to manage to be mostly unobtrusive/inconspicuous when they're not doing their thing.. so maybe that's the ethereal element??

I like to think of the nazgul as to being consumed, rather than ethereal. they don't get to have a "full" body because it's been corrupted beyond existence. ethereal seems more the result of an ascension, an upgrade rather than a downgrade

anyway, isn't the whole invisibility ring turned "the one" being a massive retcon pretty much an estabilished fact? if so (and I do believe this to be the case) then we shouldn't really be surprised that here and there there are a few cracks in the system and definitions that surround the whole invisibility matter across the ages. especially so since Tolkien worked on his creature until his very last days.. fine-tuning and changing things bit by bit.. if he'd lived another 20 years maybe he'd have changed things or harmonized some details differently.

[factotum]

Gandalf wears the third one and, from memory, this becomes visibly apparent when he brings new life in the heart of Theoden.

I don't recall that--in the book we only find out Gandalf has the third of the Three when he and Frodo are boarding the ship that carries them into the West; don't remember when (or even if) it appeared during the film.

[Eldariel]

I don't recall that--in the book we only find out Gandalf has the third of the Three when he and Frodo are boarding the ship that carries them into the West; don't remember when (or even if) it appeared during the film.

It is said to carry the power of rekindling hope in hearts of people, though (there was some part where the events of Círdan giving it to him were described). A power Gandalf has wielded more than a little in both, Rohan and Gondor.

[Karoht]

Sheilob.
When she caught Frodo, had she taken the ring and put it on some how...

Since Sheilob already was a mass of evil in spider form, I think that would have turned out very very badly. Just saying.

Invisible evil spider of unspeakable evil wielding the power of sauron? Oh snap.

[Traab]

Sheilob.
When she caught Frodo, had she taken the ring and put it on some how...

Since Sheilob already was a mass of evil in spider form, I think that would have turned out very very badly. Just saying.

Invisible evil spider of unspeakable evil wielding the power of sauron? Oh snap.

I dont think it would have slowed sauron much. I mean come on, sam made the spider run off. Pretty sure a nazgul would have sliced her to bits and taken the ring from wherever she had it.

[Ravens_cry]

I dont think it would have slowed sauron much. I mean come on, sam made the spider run off. Pretty sure a nazgul would have sliced her to bits and taken the ring from wherever she had it.
Yes, but he had an artefact magic weapon . . .whose force was increased by her impaling herself on it when she tried to crush him.

[Traab]

Yes, but he had an artefact magic weapon . . .whose force was increased by her impaling herself on it when she tried to crush him.

And they have morgul blades capable of turning anything they cut into a wraith slaved to their will. And cant be killed by anything short of the ring being destroyed.

[Gnoman]

Only if they pierce the heart, or stay in and poison the body long enough. They probably would not have managed to get through Shelb's thick skin, as she would have recognized them as a threat, and not tried to samsh them.

[Traab]

Only if they pierce the heart, or stay in and poison the body long enough. They probably would not have managed to get through Shelb's thick skin, as she would have recognized them as a threat, and not tried to samsh them.

Even assuming they couldnt just outright kill her, all it would take is a wound then retreat and wait a few days. Eventually, shelob would be overcome by the wound and its all over. Unless she somehow convinces elrond to come and save her. :smalltongue: Seriously though, I wouldnt be surprised at all if the nazgul were strong enough to break through her natural armor. Worst case they borrow the witch kings mace and crush her legs or something.

[Gnoman]

Not really. Shelob's body is composed of folds upon folds upon folds upon folds of skin. Without her own massive strength bearing down upon the enemy, the blade would almost certainly break of harmlessly with any fragments falling out by themselves. That's assuming that Shelob, the last child of a Power that was at least the equal of Melkor at his height, could be poisoned by the morgul-blade in the first place.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, considering how brittle the swords were, admittedly this is as much a feature as a bug, could they even have pierced her hide?
Shelob isn't just a big spider, she is spawn of Ungoliant, (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ungoliant) destroyer of the Two Trees.

[Traab]

Well, considering how brittle the swords were, admittedly this is as much a feature as a bug, could they even have pierced her hide?
Shelob isn't just a big spider, she is spawn of Ungoliant, (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ungoliant) destroyer of the Two Trees.

True, but she also got an eye stabbed out by a freaking hobbit, and took an injury to her leg. So yeah they likely couldnt gut her like a fish, but they could stab her through the eyes, or chop into a limb. Or wound her by smashing her with that massive mace then stabbing the wound with a morgul blade. Im not saying it would be easy, far from it, im just saying that she has her cavern system that sauron knows all about, and 9 virtually unkillable ringwraiths available to pin her down, lethally wound her eventually, then wait for her to fall under the control of sauron. Or just keep hitting her until she succumbs and dies.

[Eldariel]

True, but she also got an eye stabbed out by a freaking hobbit, and took an injury to her leg. So yeah they likely couldnt gut her like a fish, but they could stab her through the eyes, or chop into a limb. Or wound her by smashing her with that massive mace then stabbing the wound with a morgul blade. Im not saying it would be easy, far from it, im just saying that she has her cavern system that sauron knows all about, and 9 virtually unkillable ringwraiths available to pin her down, lethally wound her eventually, then wait for her to fall under the control of sauron. Or just keep hitting her until she succumbs and dies.

I'm pretty sure we can assume from the fact that Sauron never did this, that this would not work. I mean, if Sauron could bring Shelob under his control, obviously he would. Shelob's basically a maia; I'm fairly sure Morgul-blade simply couldn't do anything to it, and that it might even be dangerous to Ringwraiths themselves.

[Traab]

I'm pretty sure we can assume from the fact that Sauron never did this, that this would not work. I mean, if Sauron could bring Shelob under his control, obviously he would. Shelob's basically a maia; I'm fairly sure Morgul-blade simply couldn't do anything to it, and that it might even be dangerous to Ringwraiths themselves.

From what I read in her description, sauron left her alone because she did a fine job of guarding his flank and he didnt even have to bother trying to control her. It gave more of an impression that she was absolutely no threat to him in any way, and he left her alone because she was already doing what he wanted just by existing there. Also, she was the daughter of an incredibly dangerous, and mysterious spider creature. That doesnt mean she was anywheres near as strong as her mom, after all, HER kids were slaughtered by the dozens by a fricking half starved bilbo. That suggests a steep drop in power level generation by generation.

Once again, im not saying she would be a pushover, but I am saying that if sauron wanted her dead, she would die.

[factotum]

Probably, yes, but don't forget Shelob was "the last child of Ungoliant to trouble an unhappy world", and Ungoliant managed to defeat Morgoth himself--I suspect getting rid of her would have taken more effort than Sauron just lifting a finger.

[dehro]

Probably, yes, but don't forget Shelob was "the last child of Ungoliant to trouble an unhappy world", and Ungoliant managed to defeat Morgoth himself--I suspect getting rid of her would have taken more effort than Sauron just lifting a finger.

Sauron was Morgoth's right hand and basically inherited his role and some of the power that comes with it, his personl power aside. he is the single most powerful entity outside of Valinor with the possible exception of Gandalf, and he's as old as middle-earth. most of his relevant minions are equipped with neat artifacts. many of them are stronger than your average human fighter. all of them could take Shelob.
Shelob is a descendant of Ungoliant, with the status of a glorified doorwarden. possibly a very strong menace to stray travelers and unwary orcs. she's ultimately pretty much defeated by an opponent who, aside having a cool weapon is less than half the size of a common human being.
Shelob is pretty much a feral creature with little on her mind other than feeding. Ungoliant had a purpose, a range of powers and a "scope" that was simply not comparable to that of Shelob who pretty much is the biggest and most poisonous spider in the world... and nothing more.

are you guys seriously considering Shelob as anything but a convenient doorstop for Sauron, let alone an opponent?

[Weezer]

It's important to remember that Shelob was not driven off by Sam stabbing her, from what I recall those were nothing more than surprising pinpricks. It was the Phial, a powerful artifact of light, that caused Shelob to flee. This is the kind of artifact that a servant of Sauron would never possess, for obvious reasons.

[dehro]

This is the kind of artifact that a servant of Sauron would never possess, for obvious reasons.

true..but quite frankly, I don't think they need it to deal with Shelob.
the scale of magnitude, to my mind's eye, is that Ungoliant could probably wipe the floor with half if not more of the army assembled in front of the gates of Mordor, including some of the most notorious fighters this army was led by, probably even Aragorn.
Shelob would probably/almost surely be captured/subdued/outright killed by Aragorn leading his 30 ranger-buddies, if they put their minds to it.
I have no reason to think that a few choice troops of Sauron's led maybe by one or two of the ringwraiths would not be able to do pretty much the same.

[hamlet]

Ungoliant doesn't compare to Shelob in any rational sense.

Shelob is a big sentient spider that can make life miserable for a few small creatures and, as long as she's only facing a few and maintains the edge granted by keeping them paranoid and frightened, she's pretty dangerous.

Ungoliant was/is an eldritch abomination that ate all the light in the world and frightened Morgoth, i.e., the author of all evil in the world.

It's a bit like comparing a house cat to a bengal tiger, except the disparity is probably quite a bit more significant than even that.

[Traab]

Ungoliant doesn't compare to Shelob in any rational sense.

Shelob is a big sentient spider that can make life miserable for a few small creatures and, as long as she's only facing a few and maintains the edge granted by keeping them paranoid and frightened, she's pretty dangerous.

Ungoliant was/is an eldritch abomination that ate all the light in the world and frightened Morgoth, i.e., the author of all evil in the world.

It's a bit like comparing a house cat to a bengal tiger, except the disparity is probably quite a bit more significant than even that.

How about a house cat to a displacer beast with rabies and a geas to hunt small children? Might be a bit closer.

[hamlet]

How about a house cat to a displacer beast with rabies and a geas to hunt small children? Might be a bit closer.

Heh, now I'm going to be chuckling all through my budget meeting. Thanks.

[pendell]

If Shelob were to acquire the one ring, Sauron could actually come and challenge her himself, backed by his nine ringwraiths and an endless supply of orcs as mooks to do the dirty work. If worst came to worst, he could feed orcs to her until she collapsed from saturation, then go in and take the ring from her nest.

Few problems that can't be solved by an endless swarm of minions, after all :smalltongue: .

If she *swallowed* the ring, then he'd have to either A) wait for it to come out, then plan A above or B) go off and invent a siege engine or other machine capable of opening up a big ol' spider. He's an immortal spirit -- he's not going anywhere and he has endless time, backed by the enslaved expertise of thousands of men, orcs, and trolls. If Shelob has his ring, Sauron is going to get it, one way or the other.

Respectfully,

Brian P.